Support NeoGAF

[Tams]

Come on Tams , you are totally overlooking the "embedded with the indigs" nature of the Colonels plot with the main character, the furocious need for unobtanium, how the indigs managed to subvert a group of humans over to their side and resist the only place that had any air they could breathe on the dim promise of the corps saying "oh yeah, it's ok, we'll let billions of humans die to save 1 tree on a massive moon".

See, that gibberish I just said is equally as dumb as all the stuff you said about Doc Strange.

Face it, ALL of these films are shallow. But I bet there are more novel ideas in 5 of Cameron's films than in the entire 26+film run of the MCU to date.

You said they are all dumb, but then just declared Cameron to be some creative narrative genius.

Face it, Avatar is only popular and good because of the technology and skill used for the cinematography and CGI. And for that it truly is remarkable, but the story is utterly cookie-cutter and boring.

 

[jason10mm]

You said they are all dumb, but then just declared Cameron to be some creative narrative genius.

Face it, Avatar is only popular and good because of the technology and skill used for the cinematography and CGI. And for that it truly is remarkable, but the story is utterly cookie-cutter and boring.

Cameron is a narrative genius for Terminator, T2, Abyss, Aliens. Titanic was not my cup of tea from a story perspective but you gotta admit the jewel hook was effective. True Lies is great but also just an adaptation. Avatar I like a lot but the narrative story plays second fiddle to all the background science and tech IMHO. Go watch Strange Days because I bet it is eeriely prescient to today.

Marvel is ALL fluff. There are some nice emotional beats.in there but from a story perspective NONE OF IT makes any damn sense outside of some of the political stuff with Captain America.

But these are all popcorn flicks, let's be honest. I'd still put every Cameron film above any MCU one though.

 

[Tams]

Cameron is a narrative genius for Terminator, T2, Abyss, Aliens. Titanic was not my cup of tea from a story perspective but you gotta admit the jewel hook was effective. True Lies is great but also just an adaptation. Avatar I like a lot but the narrative story plays second fiddle to all the background science and tech IMHO. Go watch Strange Days because I bet it is eeriely prescient to today.

Marvel is ALL fluff. There are some nice emotional beats.in there but from a story perspective NONE OF IT makes any damn sense outside of some of the political stuff with Captain America.

But these are all popcorn flicks, let's be honest. I'd still put every Cameron film above any MCU one though.

I'll give you Aliens, but that's it. And you accuse me of being a fanboy?! You hate Marvel, we get it. Just don't watch it then.

Anyway, let's end this here as we're clearly never going to agree.

 

[Umbasaborne]

Apples to oranges

 

[TrueLegend]

Yeah marvel will make good movie, yeah sure. More like cashing on the emotional aspect surrounding the movie.

 

[Batiman]

The film where Doctor Strange turns into a zombie to tell a universe-traveling kid to trust her powers to defeat a witch that wants to be a house mom? these are, as I said, a 12-year-old kid fantasies. There is nothing to it.

I don't know if you can find a more empty silly story than this. The character has no sense or meaning.

The Doctor Strange movies are considerably more empty and thin than Avatar. I don't know exactly what story in those movies you think beats Avatar, but you are starting to fall into the category of Marvel fans that think everything is cool no matter what it is.

Say what you want about marvel films but avatar is the most basic story in a movie you’d ever see. Straight ripped from others. I actually enjoy it but the story is nothin

 

[Bragr]

Say what you want about marvel films but avatar is the most basic story in a movie you’d ever see. Straight ripped from others. I actually enjoy it but the story is nothin

Absolutely, it's bad, but Marvel is worse.

 

[Batiman]

Absolutely, it's bad, but Marvel is worse.

Nah at least they’re original. Well we’re talking like 30 films or whatever. Some yes some no

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Marvel movies use the cheapest shittiest SFX they think they can get away with to save money.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Avatar and it's not even a contest.

It's going to be the benchmark movie in CG for decades to come. The last one is still up their with the best

 

[Hawking Radiation]

I'll give you Aliens, but that's it. And you accuse me of being a fanboy?! You hate Marvel, we get it. Just don't watch it then.

Anyway, let's end this here as we're clearly never going to agree.

Argument should end right here.

Can't take anyone seriously that fails to acknowledge Terminator and Terminator 2: Judgement Day.

 

[Konnor]

Oh, just skip the parts where he's against a witch who is driven by emotional issues regarding her family (that's not really her family), has to traverse multiple universes and fight an alternative version of himself.

It has more depth than Avatar, full stop.

Again, I never said Marvel films are deep. But they sure as hell are deeper than Avatar, even Thor: Love and Thunder or Guardians of the Galaxy: Volume 2 are.

WTF am I reading? Avatar might be a terribly mediocre movie but at least iut's making a very basic effort at character development, characterization, and plot. Doctor Strange has none of these, the villain is an irrational, incomprehensible moron that doesn't grow as a person, instead she reacts when she sees how her kids view her which anyone could have seen from a mile away, Doctor Strange is a blank character with no moral dilemmas or development in the movie and the teen girl is... just there. The plot is about going from one place to another and fighting CGI shit on the screen like a goddamn videogame.

The theme park ride metaphor about Disney capeshit is becoming more and more true, this trash aren't movies anymore, they're a ride that overloads your brain with CGI shit and dumb corporate friendly "jokes" which explains why they're so forgettable.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Wakanda Forever looks like an hour and a half funeral.

If the leaked script is true, then I agree it's gonna be a slog

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Coming to America VS Dances with Wolves.

Lol.

 

[sol_bad]

Yeah marvel will make good movie, yeah sure. More like cashing on the emotional aspect surrounding the movie.

No one had a problem with them doing it in fast and the furious, why should there be a problem if they do it with tchalla?

 

[Punished Miku]

Similar vibes in this OP.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/sonic-adventure-or-mario-64-which-3d-mascot-platformer-was-the-best.1611139/post-263970425

 

[Billbofet]

I will see both and I'm sure they will both be at the very least good. It's just that I am not "excited" to see Wakanda Forever - thought the first one was just okay after all the hype around it. But, I'm sure that's how some feel about Avatar too I guess.

 

[sol_bad]

I will see both and I'm sure they will both be at the very least good. It's just that I am not "excited" to see Wakanda Forever - thought the first one was just okay after all the hype around it. But, I'm sure that's how some feel about Avatar too I guess.

If you aren't excited, why go and see Wakanda Forever?

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

If you aren't excited, why go and see Wakanda Forever?

Because he has to shit on anything MCU

 

[Billbofet]

If you aren't excited, why go and see Wakanda Forever?

I take my kids to all the Marvel movies. My son really loves them.

 

[Tams]

Argument should end right here.

Can't take anyone seriously that fails to acknowledge Terminator and Terminator 2: Judgement Day.

They are good films. Lots of nice explosions and decent enough plots. Fantastic if you don't (and you shouldn't) go looking for plot holes.

Hardly the masterpieces you're making them out to be though.

I bet you think Arnie is a fantastic actor too. When really he's just a really and fun and enjoyable one.

 

[Konnor]

They are good films. Lots of nice explosions and decent enough plots. Fantastic if you don't (and you shouldn't) go looking for plot holes.

Hardly the masterpieces you're making them out to be though.

I bet you think Arnie is a fantastic actor too. When really he's just a really and fun and enjoyable one.

Sarah Connor's character development in those two films is better than the character development of every single character on the MCU combined.

Which, just to rant for a while here, is why modern Hollywood is so fucking pathetic. Sarah Connor was the opposite of Mary Sue, at first she was a cute every day girl men can empathize and women can associate with, she wasn't the perfect Marvel female action hero with no weaknesses whatsoever (because weaknesses on a woman is sexist you misogynistic pigs!) quite the opposite actually, she seemed terrified and weak at first but the more she went though that nightmare the tougher, more determined and pissed off she became until she started going even too far, one could argue. That is a journey of an excellent character.

 

[sol_bad]

Sarah Connor's character development in those two films is better than the character development of every single character on the MCU combined.

Which, just to rant for a while here, is why modern Hollywood is so fucking pathetic. Sarah Connor was the opposite of Mary Sue, at first she was a cute every day girl men can empathize and women can associate with, she wasn't the perfect Marvel female action hero with no weaknesses whatsoever (because weaknesses on a woman is sexist you misogynistic pigs!) quite the opposite actually, she seemed terrified and weak at first but the more she went though that nightmare the tougher, more determined and pissed off she became until she started going even too far, one could argue. That is a journey of an excellent character.

What are you talking about? Majority of Sarah Conner's character development happens off screen between T1 and T2.

 

[DeafTourette]

I’m waiting for the show to release properly before I rank her.

But I do know my top 5 MCU crushes are:

1. Shuri (cute, smart, badass, funny, the whole package)
2. Jane Foster (pretty, smart, eventual badass)
3. Valkyrie (pretty, witty, would just be fun to be around)
4. Captain Peggy Carter (I wouldn’t have ranked regular Peggy as high, but Captain, damn, badass and I loved her new hair color)
5. Gamora (a bit uptight at first but she loosens up, and I always appreciate a sexy alien lady)

Considering Jane (with Mjolnir), Captain Peggy, and Gamora all have super strength (not sure if Valkyrie has it, and Shuri will get it if she can recreate the fruit or they find more somewhere outside Wakanda), I am totally okay with any of these strong ladies carrying ME to the bedroom.

My man! Same!

 

[Tams]

Sarah Connor's character development in those two films is better than the character development of every single character on the MCU combined.

Which, just to rant for a while here, is why modern Hollywood is so fucking pathetic. Sarah Connor was the opposite of Mary Sue, at first she was a cute every day girl men can empathize and women can associate with, she wasn't the perfect Marvel female action hero with no weaknesses whatsoever (because weaknesses on a woman is sexist you misogynistic pigs!) quite the opposite actually, she seemed terrified and weak at first but the more she went though that nightmare the tougher, more determined and pissed off she became until she started going even too far, one could argue. That is a journey of an excellent character.

Lol, you're not selling that as 'deep' in any way.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

What are you talking about? Majority of Sarah Conner's character development happens off screen between T1 and T2.

Personally she has fantastic Character Development in The Sarah Conner Chronicles. Still SALTY they cancelled that. The actress playing Sarah Conner in that show Lena Headey ended up being Big in the future when she played Cersei Lannister in Game of Thrones

 

[sol_bad]

Personally she has fantastic Character Development in The Sarah Conner Chronicles. Still SALTY they cancelled that. The actress playing Sarah Conner in that show Lena Headey ended up being Big in the future when she played Cersei Lannister in Game of Thrones

I haven't watched that specifically because it was cancelled. I hate incomplete stories.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

I haven't watched that specifically because it was cancelled. I hate incomplete stories.

Understandable

That show is on my list of cancelled shows I'm still SALTY over them canceling lol

 

[DeafTourette]

Avatar was basically Dances with Wolves in Space. The story is exactly the same but instead of Native American people and land, they have the Navi (get it?) and unobtainium. That wasn't all that creative. The sequel AT LEAST is going beyond Dances with Wolves is becoming something else... But we'll see which story is better... Either way, we all win with all this nerd bait!

Oh... MCU movies/TV with depth:

Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Captain America: Civil War
Doctor Strange 1
Black Panther 1
Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Endgame
WandaVision
Hawkeye
Moon Knight
Ms. Marvel

 

[Konnor]

What are you talking about? Majority of Sarah Conner's character development happens off screen between T1 and T2.

Actually the majority of Connor's development happens in T1, then it has a pretty significant jump off-screen which is subtly analyzed and explained in T2 while still developing her character. Appearance wise the biggest development happens off screen which is what you might be thinking but her character development between movies is the natural evolution of a mother that already faced a nightmare which changed her and is determined to do whatever it takes to keep her son safe. And btw props to Linda Hamilton for doing such a great job with the character, her only mistake was letting modern Hollywood attempt to ruin its memory by participating in Dark Fate.

 

[ZehDon]

... it doesn't even look better than the first Avatar movie.

There's a few shots in The Way of Water's teaser that are scary good. The water, materials, motion, interactions, subtly - truly beyond anything we've seen. Can't wait to see what Cameron's got in store for us this time around.

Will 'Wakanda Forever' be as technically competent? No. Will 'Wakanda Forever' be a generation defining movie? No. But, will it be a terrific movie, worth going to the cinema to see, that will leave an impression with its characters, writing and themes? Also no.

 

[EekTheKat]

Yeah I'm not betting against James Cameron when it comes to the actual craft of film making. Especially if he actually puts his name on the film.

Cameron is one of those that's earned a lifetime pass to do whatever he wants and I'll be there for it.

 

[thefool]

James Cameron vs hack Coogler.
There's no competition here when technical achievements are up for debate.

 

[BeardGawd]

Avatar 2 will be a stunner. Nothing is topping this from a pure visuals or cinematography standpoint:

 

[Ironbunny]

... it doesn't even look better than the first Avatar movie.

There's a few shots in The Way of Water's teaser that are scary good. The water, materials, motion, interactions, subtly - truly beyond anything we've seen. Can't wait to see what Cameron's got in store for us this time around.

Will 'Wakanda Forever' be as technically competent? No. Will 'Wakanda Forever' be a generation defining movie? No. But, will it be a terrific movie, worth going to the cinema to see, that will leave an impression with its characters, writing and themes? Also no.

Man i'd like to have a lifesize statue of this version of Neytiri. With the bow and warpaint.

 

[RJMacready73]

Did you really just ask if a generic Marvel by the numbers conveyor belt movie is more technically impressive than a James Motherfucking Cameron movie? really... you had to ask that...

 

[jason10mm]

What are you talking about? Majority of Sarah Conner's character development happens off screen between T1 and T2.

What the what?!? Sarah has plenty of character development within T1, and you have Reece telling her what she is like in the future, you see her growth towards that ideal in T1, as much as can be accomplished in the 3-4 days that film covers, then you have a time jump to her final form AND you see not only her success but ALSO the pain she suffered for it. Her growth as the mother of a future savior of humanity, her loss as a mother and arguably as a human, and that her sacrifice is worth it as she saves her son (and by extention humanity). Obviously T3, T:G, and TDF do a lot to diminish her sacrifice as being largely meaningless but in the T1 to T2 arc it is a MASTERCLASS in character writing, and NO ONE puts Sarah Connor in the corner as just a "strong female archtype".

JFC, we don't need 3 seasons of a half-baked streaming show showing how Sarah met her mexican smuggling friends, learned to do chin-ups, and lost John to a corrupt court system or whatever (though I did like most of SCC if only for the EXTREMELY awkward T-900/John Connor romance).

 

[sol_bad]

Actually the majority of Connor's development happens in T1, then it has a pretty significant jump off-screen which is subtly analyzed and explained in T2 while still developing her character. Appearance wise the biggest development happens off screen which is what you might be thinking but her character development between movies is the natural evolution of a mother that already faced a nightmare which changed her and is determined to do whatever it takes to keep her son safe. And btw props to Linda Hamilton for doing such a great job with the character, her only mistake was letting modern Hollywood attempt to ruin its memory by participating in Dark Fate.

What the what?!? Sarah has plenty of character development within T1, and you have Reece telling her what she is like in the future, you see her growth towards that ideal in T1, as much as can be accomplished in the 3-4 days that film covers, then you have a time jump to her final form AND you see not only her success but ALSO the pain she suffered for it. Her growth as the mother of a future savior of humanity, her loss as a mother and arguably as a human, and that her sacrifice is worth it as she saves her son (and by extention humanity). Obviously T3, T:G, and TDF do a lot to diminish her sacrifice as being largely meaningless but in the T1 to T2 arc it is a MASTERCLASS in character writing, and NO ONE puts Sarah Connor in the corner as just a "strong female archtype".

JFC, we don't need 3 seasons of a half-baked streaming show showing how Sarah met her mexican smuggling friends, learned to do chin-ups, and lost John to a corrupt court system or whatever (though I did like most of SCC if only for the EXTREMELY awkward T-900/John Connor romance).

We'll agree to disagree. I don't consider it character growth, volunteering to make pipe bombs is not character growth. As for the last scene it's just her survival instincts kicking in to live, no different than any other horror movie that involves a female lead. And those horror films aren't heralded as having amazing character growth.

*EDIT*
The very last scene with her in the car with her dog does not indicate in any way, shape or form that she is going to develop into the character we see in T2.

 

[Fart Knight]

Wokanda. Even Waterworld looks better than Avatar.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Avatar wins because there's literally never been a good Marvel movie ever made.

 

[jason10mm]

"MOVE IT REESE! On your feet Soldier, ON YOUR FEET!"

If that ain't growth towards T2 Sarah then man, you must be watching an Asylum version of Terminator (the Exterminator, perhaps? I've made that mistake myself!)

Go to 2 minutes if the time stamp doesn't work (though everyone will justwatch the whole thing, it's that good.

 

[sol_bad]

I've seen the movie like 20 times, I know it very well.

 

[Doom85]

I've seen the movie like 20 times, I know it very well.

I personally prefer T2 over T1 myself. Kyle and the T-800 in 1 are great, but yeah Sarah never felt well developed in 1 nor the romance.

With 2 her being the way she is makes sense as she would expect possibly another Terminator to be sent, now after John, so she would begin training herself and him. It’s the same way with Halloween 2018, sure at the end of the 1978 film there’s no indication that Laurie would become a total badass, but given she likely took Loomis’ warnings to heart and also saw Michael shrug off two stabbing and six bullet wounds, it’s believable she would spend her life training herself and her daughter because if Michael broke out once he could do it again.

 

[jason10mm]

I personally prefer T2 over T1 myself. Kyle and the T-800 in 1 are great, but yeah Sarah never felt well developed in 1 nor the romance.

With 2 her being the way she is makes sense as she would expect possibly another Terminator to be sent, now after John, so she would begin training herself and him. It’s the same way with Halloween 2018, sure at the end of the 1978 film there’s no indication that Laurie would become a total badass, but given she likely took Loomis’ warnings to heart and also saw Michael shrug off two stabbing and six bullet wounds, it’s believable she would spend her life training herself and her daughter because if Michael broke out once he could do it again.

Halloween takes place almost entirely in ONE NIGHT, how much "become a total badass" could you do in like 8 hours? Not even a training montage (Montage!!) could account for that.

Laurie in Halloween 2018 or whatever is a CLEAR homage to Sarah Connor, it's blindingly obvious. Cameron does it with Ripley in Aliens, there is little indication in Alien that Ripley will become an alien hunting motherfucker but she has grit, competence, and courage, the key ingredients to being a proper badass. She takes her loss of her daughter and spends that rage on the xenos, she has a skillset that translates to fighting with the powerloader, she can think tactically applying lessons she learned through pain and loss, and the nuts up when it's time to decide to cut and run or stand your ground. She has little reson to torch the Queen's nest, it is all gonna be destroyed anyway, but she has flaws and wants BLOOD, then suffers for it. Great, great, character that only later on kinda turns into a silly badass charicature later on.

 

[SirKicksalot]

lmao

 

[octiny]

Avatar 2 & it's not even close.

 

[thismeinteil]

Only BP has the chance of being a decent film. Not saying it will be, but it has a shot. Avatar is just going to try to get by on spectacle, like the last film did. But, without the 3D craze, there's no way it gets close to making the same kind of money.

 

[Airbus Jr]

Avatar

 

[iPaul93]

I'm not even an Avatar fan, but the CGI is top notch.Most Marvel movies have decent to good, but not great CGI.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Just like with video games. Graphics are not an indication of overall quality.


I'll wait till I can actually see the films.