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What Bethesda can learn from other open worlds

GigaBowser

The bear of bad news
Love Bethesda open worlds exploration but one big flaw

Make it feel good to run and jump around and move your characters around Bethesda open world clunkity jank glitchity not good movements

shooting looks waayyyy better this time so Starfield is very exciting my friends my most looked forward to game
 

HL3.exe

Member
Bethesda's lacks a 'thesis', having something interesting to say. A coherent reason to be in a world (not the tired/generic mystic artifacts from the forerunners plot-beat). A main design focus or goal to build a game around.

They're like all-you-can-eat dinners.

That's something I think they can learn from stuff like Disco Elysium from a writing and world building perspective or TOTK from a focused mechanics and systems perspective.
 
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What they can/should learn is that just having a massive world of incredible scope is no longer enough. Others have equalled or surpassed them in this specialty of theirs while also showing massive open games can actually have good combat, a good story and not be filled with glitchy broken quests.

I'm interested in what they're gonna come up with but while they were leading pioneers at one point they haven't really been the king of massively open worlds for a long time
 
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What they can/should learn is that just having a massive world of incredible scope is no longer enough. Others have equalled or surpassed them in this specialty of theirs while also showing massive open games can actually have good combat, a good story and not be filled with glitchy broken quests.

I'm interested in what they're gonna come up with but while they were leading pioneers at one point they haven't really been the king of massively open worlds for a long time
This, the last thing they have left to claim is the fact that their engine can ‘remember’ the locational data of thousands of objects. However in almost all other aspects they have arguably been surpassed, and public opinion being mixed about Fallout 4 should be a slight warning sign to them and their design philosophies.
 

GigaBowser

The bear of bad news
This, the last thing they have left to claim is the fact that their engine can ‘remember’ the locational data of thousands of objects. However in almost all other aspects they have arguably been surpassed, and public opinion being mixed about Fallout 4 should be a slight warning sign to them and their design philosophies.
It is pretty increddibubble though remembering all that stuffs





kinds of furnny but I wants smoother anirmations I'm sorry my friends

 

Chukhopops

Member
This, the last thing they have left to claim is the fact that their engine can ‘remember’ the locational data of thousands of objects. However in almost all other aspects they have arguably been surpassed, and public opinion being mixed about Fallout 4 should be a slight warning sign to them and their design philosophies.
Been surpassed in which aspects and by what exactly?

It’s quite telling that Skyrim stil has 25k peak concurrent players today on Steam when it released over ten years ago. That’s higher than Elden Ring.

Fallout 4 has 22k daily peak and 83% positive evaluations.

The only open world games with more active players on Steam are GTA V, RDR 2 and ARK, with completely different philosophies.
 

Porticus

Member
Yeah lol Bethesda open world is a different thing than all the other open world in the market.

But hey, for someone the only good thing is that their engine can "remember" location data, like there's no better way to show ignorance on the matter, theorically and technically.
 

Kamina

Golden Boy
Their Open-world Gameplay lacks a lot compared to the many current games. Starfield looks promising though.

And I mean, they made Morrowind once upon a time, so they knew what they were doing storywise.
What was lost since then? Can’t be just Kirkbride.
 
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killatopak

Member
Honestly not just open world. They could learn how to integrate companions into the story more like ME2. They have Obsidian for the NV reference. They already improved gunplay from former Bungie/COD devs. They got Asobo for the flying bits.

Really hard to think of what to improve in terms of the systems they're capable of using. Maybe revamp the crafting system? I mean Skyrim's was pretty broken while FO4 was somewhat a step back from NV. Base building was great but it wasn't as good as it could. Like survival/hardcore mode made it a lot better but people shouldn't be needed to play on survival to feel those systems were important.

Like the main point is I just want them to be cohesive and not feel like different systems put together without any synergy.
 

Larxia

Member
Nothing really.
Can they improve it? Sure. Should they look at other open worlds for that? In my opinion definitely no.

Elder Scrolls and Fallout really have something special that I can't find in any other open world games. They are so immersive, it's a very different vision.
The way each NPC is unique, with a specific name, daily activities, how the NPCs can get involved into various random events creating a very alive and unpredictable world. I just love how alive it feels, and how it feels like anything can happen.

A lot of people make fun of the AI in bethesda game, but to be honest I never understood it, sure it can lead to funny, very random janky moments, but that's part of what makes it great, it feels like the world is living on its own instead of being maybe more polished but scripted into a specific way.

Even on other subjects, I'm not sure what Bethesda could learn from other open worlds. Definitely not the ubisoft structure with point of interests everywhere and visible on the map instantly.

The only other games that feel kind of similar to their games, are immersive sims like Dishonored or Deus Ex, and that's something I'd like for them to keep, instead of becoming another generic open world like all the others.
 

Laptop1991

Member
I don't agree Bethesda has been surpassed in open world design, The Witcher 3 was as good and the 3 Ubisoft open world AC games wern,t as good,

They are still the goat for me, ive just done replays of New Vegas and Fallout 3 and as pointed out above Skyrim is still massively popular today, i think Zenimax's push for live service and Fallout 76 has changed the perception of their games with younger gamers, Starfield is what they are really good at, still the best open world crafters imo
 
Dude you wouldn’t have BotW and TotK if the Zelda devs didn’t like Skyrim so much. Also Starfield has Jetpacks so they’re at least making traversal more interesting and it looks like it melds with the combat well too.
 
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GymWolf

Member
Nothing really.
Can they improve it? Sure. Should they look at other open worlds for that? In my opinion definitely no.

Elder Scrolls and Fallout really have something special that I can't find in any other open world games. They are so immersive, it's a very different vision.
The way each NPC is unique, with a specific name, daily activities, how the NPCs can get involved into various random events creating a very alive and unpredictable world. I just love how alive it feels, and how it feels like anything can happen.

A lot of people make fun of the AI in bethesda game, but to be honest I never understood it, sure it can lead to funny, very random janky moments, but that's part of what makes it great, it feels like the world is living on its own instead of being maybe more polished but scripted into a specific way.

Even on other subjects, I'm not sure what Bethesda could learn from other open worlds. Definitely not the ubisoft structure with point of interests everywhere and visible on the map instantly.

The only other games that feel kind of similar to their games, are immersive sims like Dishonored or Deus Ex, and that's something I'd like for them to keep, instead of becoming another generic open world like all the othersTeir

Putting a vase into a merchant head to steal his stuff absolutely show how smart and reactive their npcs IA really is.

Almost as hilarious as dragging the same stuff into a corner so he can't see you stealing.

But i guess that having crazy random funny moments is what people call smart ia these days...

I remember like one case where tha ia was actually smart (or maybe it was scripted in a way to look dynamic), i don't remember if it was oblivion or skyrim but there was a quest where you have to obtain an object for a guild mission and the other npcs can stole it before you or from you or some shit.
 
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nemiroff

Gold Member
learn from stuff like Disco Elysium

Bethesda made some of the most iconic and popular games among gamers out there. So I find it kinda funny that a few highbrows want to flip Bethesda games into niche indie games. I for one couldn't stand Disco Elysium so I'm glad Besthesda is making their own.
 
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HL3.exe

Member
Bethesda made some of the most iconic and popular games among gamers out there. So I find it kinda funny that a few highbrows want to flip Bethesda games into niche indie games. I for one couldn't stand Disco Elysium so I'm glad Besthesda is making their own.
Oh don't get me wrong. Love their games. They're basically open-world with immersive Sim elements, which is rare. It's just that their narratives are unengaging trope filler as an excuse to do the gamey stuff. That's just always a missed opportunity in their games.

If there is one thing Bethesda still hasn't learned from Fallout New Vegas, it's their writing and interesting characters.
 
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fatmarco

Member
I feel as far as narrative goes, Bethesda Software's companions are atrocious compared to basically every other RPG, and that reality is made more frustrating when you play New Vegas and see what is easily achievable within their own gameplay system, and then subsequently play either Fallout 3, where theres essentially zero companion narratives, or Fallout 4, where they either are so shallow to be irrelevant or simply fall flat.

I'd like to see the in world lore be as in depth as Morrowind was, and maybe even as vital as it was, because in that game I'd argue it was actually important and even necessary to your decision making to have an understand of the world history, and that helped make it extremely immersive.

Finally making their loot, and the loot loop, truly valuable, which to be fair is an issue with nearly every single RPG I can think of. I think base building in Fallout 4 actually helped in this regard, creating value for every item in the game, but dropped the ball when the other gameplay around the bases didn't really play out well, like Base Invasions where it was never a real threat, they spawned in the same spots, and then there was essentially no narrative consequence to whether you built your base well or not. But having more reason to keep looting, keep making money after you've got the best weapons and gear would be good.

Outside of that, the only game that came close to Bethesda games was Kingdom Come Deliverance, and that games focus on realism and immersion/ consequence has a lot of elements that Bethesda should draw from.
 
Been surpassed in which aspects and by what exactly?

It’s quite telling that Skyrim stil has 25k peak concurrent players today on Steam when it released over ten years ago. That’s higher than Elden Ring.

Fallout 4 has 22k daily peak and 83% positive evaluations.

The only open world games with more active players on Steam are GTA V, RDR 2 and ARK, with completely different philosophies.
I’m not talking in terms of sales and activity. I’m talking in terms of vanilla game creativity.

They have been surpassed in open world combat, storytelling, cutscenes, animations, graphics, and creativity kits(like building).

The reason their games always have a community is because of their modding community, which is one of the few things they excel at compared to other recent open world games.

Fallout 4 at launch had more mixed reception due to multiple issues and the first version of it’s dialogue system, especially if you count the console versions(don’t be that guy who doesn’t). I also distinctly remember reviewers being not pleased that Fallout 4 felt like ‘more of the same’. I even remember podcasts having arguments about it and it being compared negatively to New Vegas.
 
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nemiroff

Gold Member
Oh don't get me wrong. Love their games. They're basically open-world with immersive Sim elements, which is rare. It's just that they're narratives are unengaging trope filler as an excuse to do the gamey stuff. That's just always a missed opportunity in their games.

If theirs one thing Bethesda still hasn't learned from Fallout New Vegas, it's their writing and interesting characters.
That's a very fair and valid viewpoint.

Anyway, I can't claim to be well versed in literature and writing. But quality writing or not, I remembered how surprised I was over how interesting they was able to make Kingdom Come Deliverance despite it having absolutely no magic or fantastical elements.
 

Hudo

Member
That's a very fair and valid viewpoint.

Anyway, I can't claim to be well versed in literature and writing. But quality writing or not, I remembered how surprised I was over how interesting they was able to make Kingdom Come Deliverance despite it having absolutely no magic or fantastical elements.
It's a surprisingly nice game that will sadly be remembered for not having black people in medieval Bohemia.
 

Drizzlehell

Banned
Many open world games sadly neglect this, in my opinion, very important aspect of being an open world game - make the traversal actually fun. Otherwise you're just commuting, and commuting is fucking boring and feels like a waste of time. I shouldn't be forced to listen to podcasts to pass the time while trekking through a gigantic open world, like I do when I'm driving a car to work.

Or, more on point, I shouldn't have to find ways to amuse myself while playing a video game for amusement, lol.
 

Chukhopops

Member
I’m not talking in terms of sales and activity. I’m talking in terms of vanilla game creativity.

They have been surpassed in open world combat, storytelling, cutscenes, animations, graphics, and creativity kits(like building).

The reason their games always have a community is because of their modding community, which is one of the few things they excel at compared to other recent open world games.

Fallout 4 at launch had more mixed reception due to multiple issues and the first version of it’s dialogue system, especially if you count the console versions(don’t be that guy who doesn’t).
Some games did some parts better (RDR2, recent Zelda games, maybe Kingdom Come Deliverance) but I believe as a whole RPG package they have no competition. I wish they did, as I’d love to have other similar games to play but they simply don’t exist.

I still don’t know which other games are supposed to compare as open world RPGs? The closest one would be Witcher 3 but it doesn’t get close in terms of combat / magic options.
 

StueyDuck

Member
I agree the minute to minute gameplay loops of prior ES and FO games haven't been great.

But I'd argue the modern openworld games I assume people are measuring it against don't control great either.

In recent memory I feel that ghost of tsutshima really nailed feeling good to play. Halo infinite too if you wanna call it an open world.

But most swordy stab stab open worlds feel pretty average to actually control🤷‍♂️

Now if they aimed to control precise and fantastic like returnal... I'm all for it
 
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Gojiira

Member
What they can learn is how to structure dungeons and gameplay in general. They have big open worlds with tons of ‘points of interest’ but nothing actually interesting to do or find in them. Dungeons all look the same and have the same boring loop structure, loot is 99% of the time generic or just useless. Quests barely take you or give you a reason to explore either.
I think these are basic things that really should have been improved generations ago but Bethesda have just doubled down each time, getting worse and worse.
BUT the biggest problem they have is lack of meaningful RPG mechanics and design philosophy. ‘Choices’ in Bethesda games are binary or arbitrary, very rarely if ever do they lead to alternate paths or solutions, F4 is literally Yes, Aggressive Yes, Sarcastic Yes and I’ll be back later…Its terrible. Theres no options for low intelligence characters, or class based responses etc etc. Even when they do have choices none of it matters, plots dont change, world doesnt change.
Honestly theres too much Beth can learn from other games but dont and wont.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Most open worlds feel very limiting and kinda boring to explore after getting used to the incredible freedom you're given in BOTW and TOTK. Those games have ACTUAL open worlds that you can fully explore in all dimensions, not just 2D heightmaps where you're mostly confined to the ground.
 

GigaBowser

The bear of bad news
Most open worlds feel very limiting and kinda boring to explore after getting used to the incredible freedom you're given in BOTW and TOTK. Those games have ACTUAL open worlds that you can fully explore in all dimensions, not just 2D heightmaps where you're mostly confined to the ground.
Burt Starfields has a jet packs that could help A LOT
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Burt Starfields has a jet packs that could help A LOT

Maybe, but I doubt you'll be able to jetpack up an entire mountain or onto the roofs of the tallest buildings in that main city, etc. I think it'll be mostly an enhanced jump. I could be wrong though.
 

Saber

Gold Member
It’s quite telling that Skyrim stil has 25k peak concurrent players today on Steam when it released over ten years ago. That’s higher than Elden Ring.

Doesn't this have to do with mods?

I mean, I played Skyrim and beat the game. But if it wasn't for mods I would probably never touch the game ever again. Mods opened a new world for Skyrim, be at making the game what supposed to be(fixing thousands of bugs), improving the game(like make fair magika balancing) or just messing around for fun. Honestly, is the modding community I should be thankfull. Skyrim became 1000 times better and enjoyable after I installed mods. And played the game on PS4, where mods where pretty limited.
 
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MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Skyrim + Mods can make Skyrim play like a whole different game with animation replacers but players can also make their own content. So DLC for years from mod community.

Skyrim to this day is probably still one of the best sandbox adventure games to date with lots of replayability.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I play on PC and it's.. totally fine?

Never really understood these complaints, but maybe they suck at console controls.
 
I play on PC and it's.. totally fine?

Never really understood these complaints, but maybe they suck at console controls.
Here’s a good example of what he’s saying: Their games usually don’t have a climb/mounting over ledge animation. Instead you just have to do janky jumps up geometry for any vertical exploration.

Yes, Bethesda games will let you explore and ‘break’ them, but they never try to simply make the experience smoother in the first place.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Here’s a good example of what he’s saying: Their games usually don’t have a climb/mounting over ledge animation. Instead you just have to do janky jumps up geometry for any vertical exploration.
Yes, Bethesda games will let you explore and ‘break’ them, but they never try to simply make the experience smoother in the first place.
I legit prefer that.
 
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I legit prefer that.
I would have agreed, however they’ve made a great counterpoint in this thread where they’re saying that Zelda allows for the same(or better) amount of vertical exploration but they provide animations for such actions, instead of just leaving it as jank.
 

Hudo

Member
I genuinely think that rather than looking at other games' open-worlds, it might be more educational for them to look backwards. Instead of having a linear main story quest line, make it reactive to you. Don't mark every little shit on the map, be brave and let the player decide if he wants to mark something or not. Morrowind had some flaws, yes, but one of its biggest advantages is that it didn't assume the player is a complete retard. Make the world more reactive and don't treat the player like a baby. That would be a two things to improve for a start. That's at least my opinion.

Edit: For example, the whole Empire vs. Stormcloak storyline kinda fizzles out at the end, there isn't really a world-changing thing happening no matter how you resolve it. And why don't you let me side with Paarthurnax and eradicate the Blades or something? You present these possible choices only for them to not really matter all that much or to take them away from the player completely. Why make an open-world game, then?
 
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IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I would have agreed, however they’ve made a great counterpoint in this thread where they’re saying that Zelda allows for the same(or better) amount of vertical exploration but they provide animations for such actions, instead of just leaving it as jank.
I do enjoy BOTW but I think there's room for doing things differently in gaming, and having unique experiences that are enjoyable in there own way.

I still get a kick out of trying to fuck around and go up mountains I'm supposed to go around in Skyrim, to this day.

Also I legit hate the Zelda climbing thing any time I'm in battle, the second you are close to anything climbable your character grabs the wall, and because of the camera you don't always see what you ran into.

Anything has plusses and minuses.. and I don't think Zelda needs to be the same as Skyrim, but I enjoy Skyrim exploration, by a wide margin.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Big cities and crowd like TW3

We've seen at least one city in Starfield which is shades of Cyberpunk 2077 'lite'. And they've said the cities and settlements are the biggest they've made in any of their game.

So here's hoping the populated areas of the galaxy are adequately populated.
 
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Gorgon

Member
Bethesda is doing it's own thing in the open world design space. Their games belong to the few that actually allow you to roleplay any kind of character you want. By that I mean that that roleplaying isn't just about extensive dialogue trees and lots of stat systems. It's about your character and who she/he is. Wanna be a psycho that enters people homes and kills them while sleeping and then steals their shit while avoiding leaving witnesses? ES and Fallout allow that. Wnna be a goody two shoes that helps people in need? They allow that too. Wanna go to a town, cast some some crazy spells on guards or other NPCs and see what chaos ensues in a totally dynamic, unscripted way? Their games allow that.

My favourite fantasy RPG series of all time is The Witcher series. But what those games do is totally different. And Bethesda doesn't and shouldn't try to replicate that, just like CDPR shouldn't try to turn The Witcher into ES.

Are there problems with Bethesda's games. Sure. Outside of the bugs, the combat so far, especially in third person, sucks balls. It doesn't need to be more complex than it is or rely on great reflexes and finger-skills to become like the Souls games (and I'd hate that), but it needs to feel good. The camera and controls need to feel tight. The animations and body physics need to feel really good. It's 2023 and they need to sptep up their game. If they want their games to be primarily played in first-person then stick to that and don't introduce a third-person option. If it's there then it needs to be good, period.

Also, their local maps (when in dungeons, building, etc) are total shit. You spend half your time trying to figure out how to get to the map markers. Maybe Bethesda thinks it's a feature and that it's a good one at that. And the dungeon design is boring and shit to boot too, easily the most boring shit in Skyrim etc. The only worse think I can think of is the dungeons in Atlus games.

They also need to stop the plot-armour for Quest NPCs. If I want to kill an NPC then allow me to, don't just make them invulnerable and cowering in a corner, promptly forgetting that I just attacked them. Just throw a screen warning to the player that the NPC is essential to a Quest and give me the option to proceed or not. Don't just fucking block me from doing so.

Another thing is that the NPCs are mostly forgetable. I don't play their games for the great story and Quest design, because mostly it's shit. But actual interesting NPCs, especially Companions, is essential. Interactions between you and your Companions is important. Mods have helped, but it shouldn't be needed to begin with.

Finally, the lore of Elder Scrolls in general is shit. It's an off-the-shelves namby pamby fantasy world that only fans of crap like The Wheel of Time could consider great. In that respect I'd take Elden Rings, Demon Souls, and Dark Souls any day of the week. Even The Witcher feels a lore more tight and focused when it comes to pseudo-Renaissance European fantasy. ES is a complete mish mash of influences and the end result is a crap fruit salad. But I'm sure a lot of people would buy a fucking book series based on ES if MS decided to milk it in that direction, and they'd beg to goble up more. At least Skyrim had that Norse vibe to it that, with some mods, could give a bit of the classic Sword & Sorcery vibe of old that is sorely needed in fantasy RPGs. It's a lost branch of fantasy that needs to come back. At least the Souls games are bringing us some of that lost Clark Ashton Smith vibe.

But then again, it's the freedom of character roleplay that makes Bethesda games sing. You can have your character live the life you want in their games, unlike The Witcher, Elden Ring, and whatnot. Basically, they're completely different games and all of them do what they do well, and in that respect Bethesda doesn't need, nor should, copy them. The reverse is also true.

Guess that was a big rant, sorry for that :lollipop_tears_of_joy:
 

Gorgon

Member
Exactly. CDPR don't do anything like this and I actually find it super frustrating as you are forced into a role.

Yep. As I said, I love The Witcher series of games (I'm not that keen on the books, they're not that original either, especially if you go into the novels instead of sticking to the short stories where it really sings; the TV series is enjoyable too) but they do have a very tight focus in terms of art direction and feel, and they do what they do well. BUT you do have to want to play Geralt. You ain't playing your character, you're playing theirs. Bethesda does the "your game, your character, any way you want" like few others, if any. And that's a unique feature in AAA gaming. The closest thing I can think of is Kingdom Come, although that was not AAA (i.e. very big production values). Bethesda should stick to what they do well and not fall into trends.
 
I don't want Bethesda learning too much from these other games, in fact maybe they've already learned too much with their incessant streamlining of mechanics. Smoother verticality? It's primarily a first person experience and always has been, I don't care how janky third person looks.

No one does it like Bethesda as an overall package and while I'm not too keen on their Fallout offerings (though I love New Vegas), I absolutely love the Elder Scrolls games even if I do have bones to pick with the two most recent entries compared to the two before them - I still really like them overall. I can't believe it's going to have been 15+ years before we end up with Elder Scrolls VI. Never would have thought.
 

Gorgon

Member
I don't want Bethesda learning too much from these other games, in fact maybe they've already learned too much with their incessant streamlining of mechanics. Smoother verticality? It's primarily a first person experience and always has been, I don't care how janky third person looks.

Yes, but the point isn't really what you or I prefer. The point is that ES has allowed 1st and 3rd person play and third person sucks. If it's primarily a 1st person game then don't put 3rd person in the game. If you do then you have to make sure it works well, otherwise what's the point. In FO 3rd person is saved by VATS. There's no VATS in ES.
 
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