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Would you buy a... Xbox/Surface hybrid Windows 11 Gaming Laptop?

Kilau

Member
I’ve long been interested in an Xbox OS option for PC but with the Xbox app, game pass pc and all the first party games the only thing really missing is backwards compatibility.
 

elliot5

Member
No because there's hardly any point. Just have an Xbox UI skin overlay if you don't want the whole Xbox game bar windows currently offers. Or stream via xCloud.
 

catvonpee

Member
I was interested in one of those. But they are very overpriced for what you get. You get way more bang for your buck with a touch screen gaming Ultrabook. I have an Acer Concept D and I think it is great.
 

DrAspirino

Banned
I am not people. I despise Windows 10. If Windows 7 is the OS to make me fall in love with computers, Windows 10 is the OS to make me hate computers.
Yet new games require DirectX 12 (which is Windows 10 only) and newer games will require Direct Storage (which is Windows 11 only). Either way, you'll have to upgrade if you want to play the latest games down the road.

I'm no Windows fan by all means (heck, I use a Mac for everything but gaming), but even I know that Mac and Linux are simply not an option if you want to play the latest games.
 
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Husky

THE Prey 2 fanatic
Yet new games require DirectX 12 (which is Windows 10 only) and newer games will require Direct Storage (which is Windows 11 only). Either way, you'll have to upgrade if you want to play the latest games down the road.

I'm no Windows fan by all means (heck, I use a Mac for everything but gaming), but even I know that Mac and Linux are simply not an option if you want to play the latest games.
DX12 games are playable with Proton on Linux, and I imagine Direct Storage won't be a problem.
 
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So, basically what you're asking is a Xbox TV/couch-mode overlay aka Xbox's version of Steam's Big Picture mode, on any existing Surface device.

This seems pretty doable and Phil Spencer even hinted at this in some interviews sometime ago.

You don't "need" to dual boot Win 11 or the Xbox OS, because their games (can) carry the same filesystem, use the same api but just an extremely walled garden of the Xbox OS.

This isn't the "PS3 or Yellow Dog Linux" timeline. We've come a long way from that. Microsoft release all their exclusives, day 1 on PC and they are trying to unify the Xbox and PC storefronts as much as they can. Above all there is Gamepass natively on Windows, which is kind of fucked up at the moment thanks to it's horrendous PC app and a paltry lineup compared to the console counterpart.

All they need to do, is fix the Gamepass PC app, let go of UWP entirely and transition all games on the Gamepass PC app to Win32 (it's a small list compared to console, at least as of now in 2021), fix the godawful windows store and it's file delivery system, try to narrow down the PC Gamepass lineup to the console equivalent and only accept future indie Gamepass deals on PC which doesn't have EGS exclusivity which blocks a Gamepass PC listing, and then finally, slap the Xbox UX with all of its feature set, from its UI / friends list / OS features like quick resume etc, onto the Windows Store and Gamepass PC App, and voila. You got "Xbox on PC" without dual booting.

If you're aiming for the complete Xbox console without their Xbox hardware, aka a walled garden and brute force emulation of Xbox One and Series consoles, along with it's installed base in third party games, to be spoon-fed to you on PC because of the lack of players in most PC versions of 3rd party online multiplayer games compared to the hundreds of thousands on console, then forget it, as Phil Spencer said numerous times in the past about emulating the 360 games on PC rather than porting the entire library - it's a huge ask as it's PPC emulation, and they would need to go through every single game, recompile them as native x86 code and run live services on top of them with unlocked visual and performance upgrades to locked 360 titles (some even impossible as the entire game code needs to be rewritten), and the audience on PC for that amount of gargantuan workload are peanuts, with even lesser revenue model. Your best bet is emulators like Xenia which are making good progress, or stick to xCloud.

Now, if you're gonna ask about modern x86 based Xbox consoles and their emulation on this hypothetical Surface device hybrid that you're proposing, Microsoft are moving away from x86 and heavily investing in ARM for their Surface line of products, because of the obvious ARM benefits like LP and battery life. They even have 2 generations of Surface dedicated ARM SoC's (Microsoft SQ1 and SQ2, somewhere in the range of 2 or 3 teraflops of FP32) from Qualcomm, and are working on the successors already. Like Apple, I don't think they would be going back to Intel (or even AMD) for their PC hybrid hardware that aren't consoles. So, your hope of running an emulated code of a 12 TF (or 4 TF) targeted x86 console on a 2 TF ARM device, is not gonna happen anywhere in the near future, nor does it have a significant enough installed base for Microsoft to even consider investing into it's R&D. Gaming is such a small market for them, but that dedicated console market is lucrative enough in billions, that's why they invest in a locked console ecosystem. There won't be Mass adoption, which the Surface product line is aiming for.

At best, you're going to get some Xbox software ported natively to ARM in the near future (in one of their BUILD conferences) to raise some eyeballs and gain some good PR from the Press about their SQ line of SoC's, but that's about it.
 

Md Ray

Member
Yet new games require DirectX 12 (which is Windows 10 only) and newer games will require Direct Storage (which is Windows 11 only). Either way, you'll have to upgrade if you want to play the latest games down the road.

I'm no Windows fan by all means (heck, I use a Mac for everything but gaming), but even I know that Mac and Linux are simply not an option if you want to play the latest games.
MS confirmed Windows 10 will get DirectStorage.
 

Editaur

Member
Windows 7 was the last (and stable) OS I enjoyed using. Let me install it on Series X and I'll buy 5 of them.
 

Reallink

Member
A Surface portable would be like $1500 and a portable Xbox would probably be underpowered to hit a cheap price point, so no on both accounts.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Pretty much all first party titles come to both Xbox and PC.
There arent too many third party titles that are just Xbox.

So what would be the point really?

Unless this Xbox Surface costs ~500 dollars, can run Xbox and PC titles while still having the full Windows experience and is near Series X levels of performance.

Then im sold as shit.
 

Paasei

Member
I thought Xbox already runs on Windows. Just a different skin like the tablet version is as well with the tiles, lol.
 

KungFucius

Member
What is the point? With a gaming laptop you can play all the same games. Sure you'd gain some efficiency using XBox OS, but you'd have to boot into it which would get tiresome.

I don't get the anti Windows 10/11 crowd. I can't think of any changes MS has made to the platform in the last couple of decades that were functionally bad. Some of the cosmetic changes weren't the best, but those can be bypassed or configured.
 

Rossco666

Member
 

Brofist

Member
I am not people. I despise Windows 10. If Windows 7 is the OS to make me fall in love with computers, Windows 10 is the OS to make me hate computers.
Look you do you, but I always find this a strange hill to die on.

You're gonna have to pry my 10 year old OS that looks 95% the same as the new one out of my cold hands
 

FStubbs

Member
Yet new games require DirectX 12 (which is Windows 10 only) and newer games will require Direct Storage (which is Windows 11 only). Either way, you'll have to upgrade if you want to play the latest games down the road.

I'm no Windows fan by all means (heck, I use a Mac for everything but gaming), but even I know that Mac and Linux are simply not an option if you want to play the latest games.
Direct Storage is getting backported to Windows 10.
 

rnlval

Member
Its would dual boot into Windows 11 and Xbox OS

the selling point for this device is that its a "mobile Xbox" [somewhat]
Low TDP budget handheld and tablet gaming PC with more than 4 CPU cores will need an automated CPU affinity limiter which reduces CPU thread count to maximize iGPU's clock speed.
 
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rnlval

Member
So, basically what you're asking is a Xbox TV/couch-mode overlay aka Xbox's version of Steam's Big Picture mode, on any existing Surface device.

This seems pretty doable and Phil Spencer even hinted at this in some interviews sometime ago.

You don't "need" to dual boot Win 11 or the Xbox OS, because their games (can) carry the same filesystem, use the same api but just an extremely walled garden of the Xbox OS.

This isn't the "PS3 or Yellow Dog Linux" timeline. We've come a long way from that. Microsoft release all their exclusives, day 1 on PC and they are trying to unify the Xbox and PC storefronts as much as they can. Above all there is Gamepass natively on Windows, which is kind of fucked up at the moment thanks to it's horrendous PC app and a paltry lineup compared to the console counterpart.

All they need to do, is fix the Gamepass PC app, let go of UWP entirely and transition all games on the Gamepass PC app to Win32 (it's a small list compared to console, at least as of now in 2021), fix the godawful windows store and it's file delivery system, try to narrow down the PC Gamepass lineup to the console equivalent and only accept future indie Gamepass deals on PC which doesn't have EGS exclusivity which blocks a Gamepass PC listing, and then finally, slap the Xbox UX with all of its feature set, from its UI / friends list / OS features like quick resume etc, onto the Windows Store and Gamepass PC App, and voila. You got "Xbox on PC" without dual booting.

If you're aiming for the complete Xbox console without their Xbox hardware, aka a walled garden and brute force emulation of Xbox One and Series consoles, along with it's installed base in third party games, to be spoon-fed to you on PC because of the lack of players in most PC versions of 3rd party online multiplayer games compared to the hundreds of thousands on console, then forget it, as Phil Spencer said numerous times in the past about emulating the 360 games on PC rather than porting the entire library - it's a huge ask as it's PPC emulation, and they would need to go through every single game, recompile them as native x86 code and run live services on top of them with unlocked visual and performance upgrades to locked 360 titles (some even impossible as the entire game code needs to be rewritten), and the audience on PC for that amount of gargantuan workload are peanuts, with even lesser revenue model. Your best bet is emulators like Xenia which are making good progress, or stick to xCloud.

Now, if you're gonna ask about modern x86 based Xbox consoles and their emulation on this hypothetical Surface device hybrid that you're proposing, Microsoft are moving away from x86 and heavily investing in ARM for their Surface line of products, because of the obvious ARM benefits like LP and battery life. They even have 2 generations of Surface dedicated ARM SoC's (Microsoft SQ1 and SQ2, somewhere in the range of 2 or 3 teraflops of FP32) from Qualcomm, and are working on the successors already. Like Apple, I don't think they would be going back to Intel (or even AMD) for their PC hybrid hardware that aren't consoles. So, your hope of running an emulated code of a 12 TF (or 4 TF) targeted x86 console on a 2 TF ARM device, is not gonna happen anywhere in the near future, nor does it have a significant enough installed base for Microsoft to even consider investing into it's R&D. Gaming is such a small market for them, but that dedicated console market is lucrative enough in billions, that's why they invest in a locked console ecosystem. There won't be Mass adoption, which the Surface product line is aiming for.

At best, you're going to get some Xbox software ported natively to ARM in the near future (in one of their BUILD conferences) to raise some eyeballs and gain some good PR from the Press about their SQ line of SoC's, but that's about it.


In Qualcomm's own tests they claimed the Adreno 685 in the 8cx is 20-25% faster in Night Raid compared to UHD 620 graphics systems.

They are claiming with the SQ1 at 7W it does "3x perf/watt" compared to 15W previous generation Intel chips.

Since that's marketing speak that means the SQ1 graphics will do slightly better and perform 50% faster than the UHD 620 with half the power. Ryzen and Icelake graphics will be an additional 30-50% faster
 
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RafterXL

Member
Look you do you, but I always find this a strange hill to die on.

You're gonna have to pry my 10 year old OS that looks 95% the same as the new one out of my cold hands
Yeah, it's weird. Windows 7 was great, but move the fuck already. There's absolutely nothing in Windows 10 that would make you go from loving PC gaming to hating it, it's ridiculous. It's gonna be hilarious how many people are going to be crying about the move to Windows 11, when they were the same people crying about the move to Windows 10.
 

rnlval

Member
So, basically what you're asking is a Xbox TV/couch-mode overlay aka Xbox's version of Steam's Big Picture mode, on any existing Surface device.

This seems pretty doable and Phil Spencer even hinted at this in some interviews sometime ago.

You don't "need" to dual boot Win 11 or the Xbox OS, because their games (can) carry the same filesystem, use the same api but just an extremely walled garden of the Xbox OS.

This isn't the "PS3 or Yellow Dog Linux" timeline. We've come a long way from that. Microsoft release all their exclusives, day 1 on PC and they are trying to unify the Xbox and PC storefronts as much as they can. Above all there is Gamepass natively on Windows, which is kind of fucked up at the moment thanks to it's horrendous PC app and a paltry lineup compared to the console counterpart.

All they need to do, is fix the Gamepass PC app, let go of UWP entirely and transition all games on the Gamepass PC app to Win32 (it's a small list compared to console, at least as of now in 2021), fix the godawful windows store and it's file delivery system, try to narrow down the PC Gamepass lineup to the console equivalent and only accept future indie Gamepass deals on PC which doesn't have EGS exclusivity which blocks a Gamepass PC listing, and then finally, slap the Xbox UX with all of its feature set, from its UI / friends list / OS features like quick resume etc, onto the Windows Store and Gamepass PC App, and voila. You got "Xbox on PC" without dual booting.

If you're aiming for the complete Xbox console without their Xbox hardware, aka a walled garden and brute force emulation of Xbox One and Series consoles, along with it's installed base in third party games, to be spoon-fed to you on PC because of the lack of players in most PC versions of 3rd party online multiplayer games compared to the hundreds of thousands on console, then forget it, as Phil Spencer said numerous times in the past about emulating the 360 games on PC rather than porting the entire library - it's a huge ask as it's PPC emulation, and they would need to go through every single game, recompile them as native x86 code and run live services on top of them with unlocked visual and performance upgrades to locked 360 titles (some even impossible as the entire game code needs to be rewritten), and the audience on PC for that amount of gargantuan workload are peanuts, with even lesser revenue model. Your best bet is emulators like Xenia which are making good progress, or stick to xCloud.

Now, if you're gonna ask about modern x86 based Xbox consoles and their emulation on this hypothetical Surface device hybrid that you're proposing, Microsoft are moving away from x86 and heavily investing in ARM for their Surface line of products, because of the obvious ARM benefits like LP and battery life. They even have 2 generations of Surface dedicated ARM SoC's (Microsoft SQ1 and SQ2, somewhere in the range of 2 or 3 teraflops of FP32) from Qualcomm, and are working on the successors already. Like Apple, I don't think they would be going back to Intel (or even AMD) for their PC hybrid hardware that aren't consoles. So, your hope of running an emulated code of a 12 TF (or 4 TF) targeted x86 console on a 2 TF ARM device, is not gonna happen anywhere in the near future, nor does it have a significant enough installed base for Microsoft to even consider investing into it's R&D. Gaming is such a small market for them, but that dedicated console market is lucrative enough in billions, that's why they invest in a locked console ecosystem. There won't be Mass adoption, which the Surface product line is aiming for.

At best, you're going to get some Xbox software ported natively to ARM in the near future (in one of their BUILD conferences) to raise some eyeballs and gain some good PR from the Press about their SQ line of SoC's, but that's about it.
From https://mspoweruser.com/surface-pro-x-benchmark/
Article Date: December 10, 2019

Unable to find the answer on the internet Yong-Cheon decided to answer the question himself by buying a Surface Pro X, porting his in-development game to it, and doing side by side benchmarks. He writes:

I’m a programmer who writes software that goes into the game, so … the most important thing was how well the game can run on this device. However, no game has been released as an ARM64 native app on win32 base. Even if it is, I can’t modify it off my own way, so it doesn’t mean anything anyway. So I decided to port my game and the one I’m developing to ARM64.
After exhaustive benchmarks which can be seen in detail on his blog here he reports;
  1. In general CPU operations – arithmetic, reading from and writing to memory, the ARM64 performance of the SQ1 processor is satisfactory.
  2. When using spin lock, performance is significantly lower than intel x86. Also when it in a bad situation with multithreading, such as using Critical Sections, performance is significantly lower than x86.
  3. It’s still slower than intel x86. In addition to the clock frequency, instruction efficiency is still lower than Intel x86.
  4. But that’s enough to use as a laptop (assuming it running apps for ARM64). CPU performance is not severely degraded compared to Intel x86. Sometimes it’s better than x86. GPU performance in particular is impressive.
  5. At the moment, there are problems with Qualcomm’s GPU drivers. Both performance and stability are a problem with DirectX.
  6. If popular productivity applications are released for ARM64, I think it can provide a working environment that is not lacking compared to x86 devices.
  7. If the GPU driver improves, I think the game that runs on the x86 Surface Pro can run smoothly.
  8. x86 emulation performance is significantly lower than that of native ARM64. If the Windows on ARM ecosystem has to rely on x86 emulation, there is no future.

Surface Pro 7's Icelake iGPUs in 2019 was
UHD with 32 IEU.
Iris Plus Graphics with 48 IEU.
Iris Plus Graphics with 64 IEU.
 

In Qualcomm's own tests they claimed the Adreno 685 in the 8cx is 20-25% faster in Night Raid compared to UHD 620 graphics systems.

They are claiming with the SQ1 at 7W it does "3x perf/watt" compared to 15W previous generation Intel chips.

Since that's marketing speak that means the SQ1 graphics will do slightly better and perform 50% faster than the UHD 620 with half the power. Ryzen and Icelake graphics will be an additional 30-50% faster

From https://mspoweruser.com/surface-pro-x-benchmark/
Article Date: December 10, 2019

Unable to find the answer on the internet Yong-Cheon decided to answer the question himself by buying a Surface Pro X, porting his in-development game to it, and doing side by side benchmarks. He writes:


After exhaustive benchmarks which can be seen in detail on his blog here he reports;
  1. In general CPU operations – arithmetic, reading from and writing to memory, the ARM64 performance of the SQ1 processor is satisfactory.
  2. When using spin lock, performance is significantly lower than intel x86. Also when it in a bad situation with multithreading, such as using Critical Sections, performance is significantly lower than x86.
  3. It’s still slower than intel x86. In addition to the clock frequency, instruction efficiency is still lower than Intel x86.
  4. But that’s enough to use as a laptop (assuming it running apps for ARM64). CPU performance is not severely degraded compared to Intel x86. Sometimes it’s better than x86. GPU performance in particular is impressive.
  5. At the moment, there are problems with Qualcomm’s GPU drivers. Both performance and stability are a problem with DirectX.
  6. If popular productivity applications are released for ARM64, I think it can provide a working environment that is not lacking compared to x86 devices.
  7. If the GPU driver improves, I think the game that runs on the x86 Surface Pro can run smoothly.
  8. x86 emulation performance is significantly lower than that of native ARM64. If the Windows on ARM ecosystem has to rely on x86 emulation, there is no future.

Surface Pro 7's Icelake iGPUs in 2019 was
UHD with 32 IEU.
Iris Plus Graphics with 48 IEU.
Iris Plus Graphics with 64 IEU.

So, just as everyone already knew, x86 emulation on ARM is multiple folds lesser in perf, compared to native code. That developer didn't need to waste his valuable time to confirm something he knows already. Massive props to him for the effort though, data is important. Surprising thing is memory eating up, draw calls being slower is expected.

OP, here's your hypothetical Xbox (treat the dev's game code as an Xbox Scarlett app), brute forced on ARM. Hopefully this answers your question. Hint: It ain't pretty lol
 

Skyfox

Member
Been looking into ways to game on Surface devices for years and came close to pulling that expensive trigger quite a few times.

But every time I watched YouTube videos of actual gameplay reviews on Surface it was video after video of issues and performance problems. It was heart breaking as the hardware designs are awesome.

But then steamdeck, so I'm sorted now.
 

Zeroing

Member
Its would dual boot into Windows 11 and Xbox OS

the selling point for this device is that its a "mobile Xbox" [somewhat]
Is this a survey?

anyway I would choose no.

Since the switch exists and now the steam deck, I assume MS will jump into the “mobile” bandwagon.
 

Dream-Knife

Member
I am not people. I despise Windows 10. If Windows 7 is the OS to make me fall in love with computers, Windows 10 is the OS to make me hate computers.
What do you hate about 10? The start menu? It can be customized to your liking.

I used to use classic start menu, but switched to the default windows 10 and changed stuff around on it. It's actually pretty nice.
 

Husky

THE Prey 2 fanatic
What do you hate about 10? The start menu? It can be customized to your liking.

I used to use classic start menu, but switched to the default windows 10 and changed stuff around on it. It's actually pretty nice.
After my Win7 PC's motherboard died (very recent, pls mourn :lollipop_crying:) I moved to a Win10 PC, and even after the heavy customization (I even uninstalled the Windows Store and all UWP apps) it's a slower, less stable OS that feels like it was designed for tablets first, desktops second. Honestly it feels like Android with a skin just imitating Windows.
Windows has left me behind for a new target audience. My preferences don't align with Microsoft's course. I must settle for a new home.
 

Dream-Knife

Member
After my Win7 PC's motherboard died (very recent, pls mourn :lollipop_crying:) I moved to a Win10 PC, and even after the heavy customization (I even uninstalled the Windows Store and all UWP apps) it's a slower, less stable OS that feels like it was designed for tablets first, desktops second. Honestly it feels like Android with a skin just imitating Windows.
Windows has left me behind for a new target audience. My preferences don't align with Microsoft's course. I must settle for a new home.
What are the specs on your machine? After my mom's Vaio died I got her a cheap HP with windows 10. It does run like ass, but it uses a HDD and has 8gb of ram.

Still feels like windows to me. It actually reminds me of my XP set up with its modified uxtheme.


RIP that mobo. What caused it to die?
 

Husky

THE Prey 2 fanatic
What are the specs on your machine? After my mom's Vaio died I got her a cheap HP with windows 10. It does run like ass, but it uses a HDD and has 8gb of ram.

Still feels like windows to me. It actually reminds me of my XP set up with its modified uxtheme.


RIP that mobo. What caused it to die?
GTX 970 (lmao GPU shortage), i7 10700K, 32GB RAM, NVME SSD (+another for games :lollipop_smiling_face_eyes:). Recent custom build. Threw stimulus bucks at it.
I'm just very picky and need to be in total control of my system. Win10 feels like a service that's treating me like a guest, rather than an owner of a piece of software.

No clue what killed it, I woke up one day and my PC wouldn't boot right. A few fans would power on, hard drives would get a bit of power, then it was all off. Tested all the hardware, tried booting with this PC's PSU, but in the end I couldn't find anything else that could be causing the problem. Drives are okay, that's what's most important, and I knew I had to move on from Win7 someday. I ran out of spare USBs so I have to wait on installing Linux Mint (Cinnamon), but its desktop environment looks very comfy (and I found a Win7 imitation environment), so I expect to fall back in love with computers.
I've long been told that Linux was best for my needs. It's about time then.
 

Dream-Knife

Member
GTX 970 (lmao GPU shortage), i7 10700K, 32GB RAM, NVME SSD (+another for games :lollipop_smiling_face_eyes:). Recent custom build. Threw stimulus bucks at it.
I'm just very picky and need to be in total control of my system. Win10 feels like a service that's treating me like a guest, rather than an owner of a piece of software.

No clue what killed it, I woke up one day and my PC wouldn't boot right. A few fans would power on, hard drives would get a bit of power, then it was all off. Tested all the hardware, tried booting with this PC's PSU, but in the end I couldn't find anything else that could be causing the problem. Drives are okay, that's what's most important, and I knew I had to move on from Win7 someday. I ran out of spare USBs so I have to wait on installing Linux Mint (Cinnamon), but its desktop environment looks very comfy (and I found a Win7 imitation environment), so I expect to fall back in love with computers.
I've long been told that Linux was best for my needs. It's about time then.
Damn that sucks.

970 can last you a little while longer as long as you don't run out of VRAM.
 

Husky

THE Prey 2 fanatic
Damn that sucks.

970 can last you a little while longer as long as you don't run out of VRAM.
It also helps that I always wait for steep discounts on games, so I'm always a couple years behind. I won't be playing all the new raytraced games for a while :lollipop_grinning_eyes:
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
I know people apparently know about the cloud streaming beta stuff already, but it still seems really underrated at this point. I think it will remain underrated until people try it or see it for themselves.

I tried out the xbox cloud stuff last night for the first time on my phone. I was at home, and I don't have particularly amazing internet. Mid-tier at my internet provider I think. Broadband. Played Forza H 4, Hades, Streets of Rage 4, etc. and it was pretty much spot on. I synced my Xbox controller to my phone in 2 seconds very easily.

Pretty much the only thing I need is a tiny plastic clip to hold my phone to my Xbox controller, which I ordered yesterday for $10. If I'm ever staying at a friend's house, or anywhere with decent internet - literally all I have to pack is a controller and just take my phone. If you're just looking for a brief fix, and not hours and hours of dedicated portable gaming, the cloud stuff is pretty dang convenient. I got an xbox at home, and a mobile one now for a one time charge of $10.

Full disclosure, Hades had a lag hiccup for about 1 second once. Forza's resolution dipped for about 45 seconds, then went back up. On Forza I felt slight lag off and on. Streets of Rage 4, I felt no lag.
 
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