jamesinclair
Banned
I am a safe driver and I dont pay a dime in car insurance. Havent ever in my life actually.
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WSJ: Will Young and Healthy Give Up Disposable Income to Pay for Insurance?
- Thread starter Antiochus
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I am a safe driver and I dont pay a dime in car insurance. Havent ever in my life actually.
reggieandTFE
Member
It's amusing to see the WSJ worried about people in their 20s only making $20,000 a year when the policies embraced by their editorial board have helped create the rising generational income gap (deregulation, union-busting, decimated social safety net, lack of affordable education, etc.)
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
Well, let me know how that works out for you when someone does a hit and run on you. Good luck. It happened to me and I'd be fucked if I didn't have insurance.
I was going the speed limit on a residential only to have a car slam right through a stop sign and T-bone me.
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
I also hope if you ever do happen to hit someone and are found to be at fault that they don't sue you for everything you have. You'd deserve it.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
I'm still not sure what to do.
Basically I pay around $100 a month in medical bills (I owe about $30,000+ for getting rid of a particularly nasty kidney stone). It's likely I'll be paying this bill for the rest of my life.
If I decide against insurance then the next time something like this happens...well I'm not sure what I'll do. I guess I'll take on more debt I'm completely incapable of paying off?
On the plus(?) side I make next to nothing so barring any FL stupidity I should qualify for some dirt cheap insurance.
Basically I pay around $100 a month in medical bills (I owe about $30,000+ for getting rid of a particularly nasty kidney stone). It's likely I'll be paying this bill for the rest of my life.
If I decide against insurance then the next time something like this happens...well I'm not sure what I'll do. I guess I'll take on more debt I'm completely incapable of paying off?
On the plus(?) side I make next to nothing so barring any FL stupidity I should qualify for some dirt cheap insurance.
Antiochus
Member
I like to frame the issue in another way:
Those who think young individuals barely making above $25000 a year are able to pay for a $150-200/month plan (with barely a $5-10 subsidy) along with a $5-6000 deductible without any problems while juggling college loans, rent, car payments, and other sundry expenses while working in a less than 50 employee institution, are very very sorely mistaken. Those individuals neither can, nor should, be paying that much for their insurance in the first place. The extra $100 per month for them can literally mean a difference between getting devoured by debt and barely staying afloat. They never were, and never will be, some verdant sheep with plenty of fur to shear.
Those who think young individuals barely making above $25000 a year are able to pay for a $150-200/month plan (with barely a $5-10 subsidy) along with a $5-6000 deductible without any problems while juggling college loans, rent, car payments, and other sundry expenses while working in a less than 50 employee institution, are very very sorely mistaken. Those individuals neither can, nor should, be paying that much for their insurance in the first place. The extra $100 per month for them can literally mean a difference between getting devoured by debt and barely staying afloat. They never were, and never will be, some verdant sheep with plenty of fur to shear.
Thousands of dollars for the right to pay thousands more if you actually ever need to use it. Health insurance is a delightful scam.
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
I agree with you that they shouldn't. How are these folks making $25-30,000? Are they self employed?
timetokill
Banned
For one, you have to consider that it's not $6000-$10000. It's $6000-$10000 plus whatever amount I sank into monthly payments. Those monthly payments put massive strain on me NOW.
As far as the outcomes in a catastrophe, either one would lead me to have to declare bankruptcy so it's all a wash either way.
I live paycheck to paycheck right now. An extra $250/mo isn't something we can afford, even if we wanted to.
Basically -- I'm in a position where I have no choice but to play the odds and pray that it works out.
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
I understand as I've been there. I wish you and your wife the best.
timetokill
Banned
Thanks.
I don't want to crap on Obamacare as I know it's going to help a lot of people out, but unfortunately I'm not one of them. I just wish the system could get fixed for the rest of us too.
Worth noting as well that much of the funding for the subsidies came in the form of tax increases on the wealthy, via increased Medicare taxes on incomes over $200k. It's a pretty large redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor, to help them buy health insurance.
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
Me too and I'm hopeful that we're on a path to eventually get there. Also, I know it's not easy but try your best to wait and see what the final plans and premiums are. You may just be surprised.
Black Mamba
Member
If they are in their 20s, a bronze plan should be about $100 for the bronze plan. But there is also a catastrophic coverage plan for people under 30 which will be under $100 for someone at $25k.
If they take this route, they'd pay no more than about $6500 should something bad happen for a cost of like $30-70 a month. If they don't have much debt, they will pay for the bronze or silver, I imagine.
Like I said, some people will get caught in a tough spot but most people should not be in this position.
not psycho
Member
It's a vicious cycle too.
If people can't afford to pay, the prices will skyrocket (the most likely outcome). Thus making them really not able to pay, causing the prices to soar ever higher.
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
Yep. And it's better to pay $840 for the year to have insurance in case something terrible happens than to pay $250 to the IRS and not get anything for it. At least IMO.
jamesinclair
Banned
YOLO
I am a very safe driver
When I do drive, I dont own a car, so I rarely do. And when I do, Im covered under the policy of whoever owns the vehicle
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
Ok, that's a different story.
Karsticles
Member
I haven't had health insurance for 4 years. I probably won't for another 4 - I'm just not that fortunate.
Phoenix
Member
Actually declaring bankruptcy is pretty straightforward. That it has disastrous impacts on your credit doesn't mean that its not easy to file for and have medical debt discharged in bankruptcy. You'll find that the majority of bankruptcy cases are to discharge medical debt. Most people who are going without insurance of all sorts aren't thinking about the consequences of not having insurance - they just know that they don't want to pay for it.
Antiochus
Member
I'm sure those making $25K a year will have up to $6500 comfortably to spare in case "something bad" happens to them.
I find it very interesting that those "caught in a tough spot" are now no longer considered to be part of the vulnerable population, and have the policies to reflect that assumption, for some reason
Black Mamba
Member
not to mention, in 2015 it will be $500 at that salary. Catastrophic will probably be near that amount and at least you'd get preventative services.
I think the law should be better for those people. It's not the best law. But we have to keep things in perspective too. If it were up to me, I'd up the subsidies for them.
And while they don't have $6500 to comfortably spend, it's a lot better than $150k and declaring bankruptcy.
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
Yep. And in 2016 it will be $750.
Antiochus
Member
One has to take what one can get these days.
What is even more amusing is that those very same personal stories reflecting the challenges of the young are ostensibly the causus belli Obamacare was trumpeted 3 years ago to solve and prevent. The same faction who in 2010 were citing those type of young, economically vulnerable individuals as to why the system needs a overhaul are now saying tough luck, not my problem or you better pay up (or else!) to those same people. It really is something to behold
Fnord
Member
4. Obamacare doesn't address the actual issue - the cost of health care (not health insurance... health care.).
I've been self employed since 2000. The few years before that, I was a private contractor. In all of that time, I've not had health insurance. I've needed to see a doctor exactly three times in that period. Once for strep throat, which cost me about $50 for the visit and penicillin. Once for a car accident, which the person at fault's car insurance paid for. And once for passing out and splitting my head open from, what amounts to, heat exhaustion.
The two instances I had to pay for were paid out of pocket. If I'd been paying for health insurance for all that time, I'd have been out of thousands and thousands of dollars. For nothing. Well, nothing except for paying for other people to go to doctors.
I'm still shocked that the SCOTUS ruled that this thing was Constitutional. I thought, for sure, that a tax on breathing would be outside the power of Congress to impose. At any rate, given the nature of my business, I never know how much I'll make from month to month. Being forced to get health insurance will be a pretty significant burden to me. I am not looking forward to it.
Black Mamba
Member
Actually, $695. Goes from 2% to 2.5%, not 3% and the $695 is higher.
Then it gets indexed to inflation or 2.5%, whichever is higher.
Year 1 is kind of a opt out year for young people in a tougher spot if they so choose, but going forward that will just become kind of dumb with the catastrophic option.
Fnord
Member
There are actually some very good aspects of the bill. I just have a serious problem with the mandate.
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
Ahh, yes. My bad.
Black Mamba
Member
without the mandate, the rest of the meat of the law (exchanges) will fail. See: New York.
Also, you've been fortunate not to need lots of medical services. Other people are obviously not so lucky and not having insurance takes on huge risk, especially if you own your own business (you could lose it).
SouthernDragon
Member
For those crowing about not purchasing health insurance because it's simply not worth it (not because of financial hardship):
Wait till you get something that is entirely out of your control. My dad developed pancreatic cancer, and he did not drink or smoke. He ate homecooked meals three times a day, almost every day of the month (we ate out once a month). He worked out every day, to the point that he was doing heavy construction work on his own at home at the age of 70 and it barely phased him. He cycled every weekend that he could. He juiced vegetables and fruits 3 times a day. He put on sunscreen and made sure to go to the doctor regularly.
He still got cancer. It still killed him. If he had not been wise and taken out extensive life insurance along with supplementing his Medicare with employer provided health insurance, we would have been in the poor house. It is thanks to him and his foresight that I can attend an excellent university and have prospects for a good job so that I can take care of the family.
If he had not had health insurance along with other protective measures, we'd have lost the house and been out on the streets. One experimental operation that he had cost $120,000 alone.
If you give one SHIT about your family, friends, and loved ones, you get health insurance. I have health insurance through my university, and I go in for regular check ups because I want to avoid a repeat of this situation for my family. I plan on getting some one way or another upon getting a job.
Wait till you get something that is entirely out of your control. My dad developed pancreatic cancer, and he did not drink or smoke. He ate homecooked meals three times a day, almost every day of the month (we ate out once a month). He worked out every day, to the point that he was doing heavy construction work on his own at home at the age of 70 and it barely phased him. He cycled every weekend that he could. He juiced vegetables and fruits 3 times a day. He put on sunscreen and made sure to go to the doctor regularly.
He still got cancer. It still killed him. If he had not been wise and taken out extensive life insurance along with supplementing his Medicare with employer provided health insurance, we would have been in the poor house. It is thanks to him and his foresight that I can attend an excellent university and have prospects for a good job so that I can take care of the family.
If he had not had health insurance along with other protective measures, we'd have lost the house and been out on the streets. One experimental operation that he had cost $120,000 alone.
If you give one SHIT about your family, friends, and loved ones, you get health insurance. I have health insurance through my university, and I go in for regular check ups because I want to avoid a repeat of this situation for my family. I plan on getting some one way or another upon getting a job.
PrivateWHudson
Member
Lobbiests will never let that happen. The healthcare and insurance systems needs to be torn down and rebuilt. No insurance, just socialised medicine.
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
I'm really sorry about your loss. Sounds like your father was incredibly smart and cared about you and your family.
Well what could be done? It's obvious that healthcare should be single payer as it is the only sensible option, but the conservative fuckwits were acting like that would literally destroy the US.
I would love to think that the WSJ could provide an intelligent, level headed, counter-argument to ACA, but they were championing it's destruction from the beginning.
This mess is still vastly superior to what we had before.
It's infuriating to see people criticizing it, because all of it's flaws exist because of pressure from conservatives.
There is absolutely no counter-argument to universal healthcare in the US. You either have to let people die in emergency room parking lots, or you prevent them from showing up in the first place by providing them with preventative care.
Walmart does offer employer insurance, just saying.
Fnord
Member
I don't have a problem at all with this line of thinking. And when I was employed at companies that offered it, I had health insurance. It made financial sense at the time. I merely disagree with the government forcing people to have it.
So? If the legislation is flawed, it's flawed. It makes no difference whose fault it is.
KiwiLannister
Member
Man I really don't envy your healthcare system in america :/ You need to get universal healthcare.
It would immediately cause the government to force healthcare prices down as hospitals could no longer gouge the prices, if the government really wanted you could offer tax credits to people who stayed in good shape, didn't smoke etc. It's a travesty that injury or sickness can cause such massive financial distress
I don't know why you would forgo health insurance in any situation if you can afford it though, regardless of age. You have no way of knowing if you will get cancer or have a car crash and be forced into thousands of dollars of debt.
It would immediately cause the government to force healthcare prices down as hospitals could no longer gouge the prices, if the government really wanted you could offer tax credits to people who stayed in good shape, didn't smoke etc. It's a travesty that injury or sickness can cause such massive financial distress
I don't know why you would forgo health insurance in any situation if you can afford it though, regardless of age. You have no way of knowing if you will get cancer or have a car crash and be forced into thousands of dollars of debt.
Black Mamba
Member
BTW, self-employed people can usually write their insurance premiums off as a business expense on their taxes which is more helpful than writing them off as a medical expense.
I was struggling to come up with someone.
I was struggling to come up with someone.
SouthernDragon
Member
Thanks.
I'm obviously proud of him, but I share this story because it's an excellent warning. Yes, he was 70+, but looking at him you couldn't tell. Most people thought he was in his mid 40s before developing cancer. His doctors would tell him he was in excellent health (except for a damaged rotator shoulder cuff he was supposed to get fixed) and that he had little to nothing to worry about.
Essentially, he had the health that many young folk (<40) on this board think they have. He might have had a slightly higher possibility of getting it due to his age, but not much higher based on his lifestyle.
I'm telling NeoGAF this story because I sincerely do not want anyone or their family to go through this same experience. It was extremely harrowing as it was, and I cannot simply imagine what we would have done if he had not taken precautions via insurance.
Well, I can. I would have sold the home to pay for any possible treatments. I would have dropped out of my undergrad to work two jobs to pay for chemotherapy. He would have still passed away, and we would have ended up in massive debt with no home and possibly no degree.
Don't do this to the people you care about. If you never use health insurance, count it as being blessed with incredible health. Don't ruminate on those thousands of dollars on "lost premiums" but reflect on the amazing fact that every single one of those months you had such excellent health you did not need to step inside a hospital. You had more time with people you love and things you enjoy.
I'm absolutely baffled by this logic. Do you not understand how insurance works?
We have 2 options.
1. Healthy people pay for people who get sick.
2. We let people without insurance suffer and die.
There are no other options. You have to choose one of those. There is no amount of tort reform, retooling of the industry, or restructuring that will ever change that equation.
SouthernDragon
Member
It honestly doesn't work if it's not mandated. Period. Trust me, I've both done extensive personal research and studied with some extremely knowledgeable people in the field. It must be mandated.
See You Next Wednesday
Banned
Except you didn't have to shell out a few hundred dollars every month to be on Medicare.
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
Agreed on all accounts. I have a 5 year old daughter and a wife which is the only reason I have life insurance. It's unfortunate that so many think they're indestructible.
ghettotwan
Member
Here's my paranoid view, this is the first step of the "beloved" single payor system. People are going to be angry at the insurance companies since they are paying them. The government will then say the current system is broken and the people need health insurance since everyone has the expectation of it now. The government will graciously go to a single payor and your wages will be even more redistributed in the form of taxes.
Vicetrailia
Member
I'm young and healthy and I would love to have insurance.
I just can't afford it. Maybe can't afford Obamacare prices, we'll see.
I just can't afford it. Maybe can't afford Obamacare prices, we'll see.
What is the other option? Honestly.
How do we pay for people who get sick and need medical attention?
jamesinclair
Banned
Tax financial transactions
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