Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
The great thing about Michael is that he's a complete shit.
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Opinion time: who are some "white males in gaming" done right?
- Thread starter User 73706
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The great thing about Michael is that he's a complete shit.
RealDeadOne
Member
I don't really understand the topic, if we're interested in having more diverse characters in order to send positive messages to minority players, isn't suggesting that white males are "generic" and boring by default just sending NEGATIVE messages to white male players, which is the exact opposite goal of diversifying?
Professor Hershel Layton.
A true gentleman, mentor and scholar. He leaves no puzzles unsolved.
Good call. My choice too. Old school english gentlrman being white makes sense. The extremely muscled guys with anger management problems are not really relatable.
Good grief.
CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls
Banned
To continue with my choice with Marston...you couldn't have had another nationality with similar characteristics to Marston in a game like RDR. Considering the time period, Marston needed to be white in order for his character to be worth a damn in that time period in America. Even then he was hated by a lot of people because of his prior connections, but his sense of honor and duty would not have been as impactful if he were any other race in that time period.
Nawww
The Assassin's Creed series does a pretty good job with this sort of thing, I think. The main series traces a man's lineage through hundreds of years, with the ethnicity of the protagonist changing based on historical setting and the needs of the story. Ezio's an Italian nobleman, so it makes sense he's depicted as white.
But if you look at somebody like B.J. Blaskowicz, his ethnic background actually makes for a better story (as much as story matters in a Wolfenstein game.)
I think the idea is that most game characters are white just because game publishers figure "people can't relate to non-white characters", or "white male is just the default", rather than for any reason actually having to do with the game's story or setting.
But if you look at somebody like B.J. Blaskowicz, his ethnic background actually makes for a better story (as much as story matters in a Wolfenstein game.)
Luis from RE4
Isn't he Spanish?
My picks go to Big Boss, Joel from TLoU, Nathan Drake, and Max Payne.
Yeah, it's quite a pickle these critics of 'white male protagonists' have gotten themselves into.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
In short, white males don't need positive reinforcement because of an eternal history of social dominance. Don't worry too much about us.
Fart Stink
Banned
Spaniards aren't white now?
Morphine_OD
Banned
This.
Skin color and sex is just what a writer feels comfortable with. It has little to do with the story progression, unless it's the only thing that defines a character. But if it's the former, than it's just lazy writing.
User 73706
Banned
There's not a fine line between "good white" and "white good." I would say as a whole, someone like Marcus Fenix or whoever's headlining the next Call of Duty title are bad examples because you could change their race and no difference would be made. Now that I'm starting to see some examples, I think examples of "white characters who are good, but contextually justify themselves" can fall into two major categories:
A character is wholesome or good, and being (or not being) a white male would subject them to different societal repercussions. BJ Blazkowicz has an emotional crutch in that his family is Jewish and is being directly targeted by Nazis. John Marston, on the flip side, is white in an era where not being white is a dangerous game. However, Marston is progressive and is overall still a good character from the viewer's perspective. A bad example would be Doomguy or Duke Nukem, because they could be virtually anyone going through a testosterone-poisoned power fantasy and it wouldn't change the game.
A character has unique or otherwise breakout design, from looks to personality, and defies their expected genericism. They are, in some way, flawed. Michael De Santa, while old, white and gun-toting is still interesting because he has downsides and from a legal perspective is still a piece of shit. Likewise, Max Payne is more of a subversion because while he's kinda samey on the outside, he's battling plenty of demons from taking so many people out and his age is catching up with him. Even Professor Layton works thanks to the setting - he's a stereotypical English gentleman and looks (and acts) as such, and him being Pacific Islander or Native American, for example, would be dissonant. A bad example would be Aiden Pearce, because while he's still admist a conflict as the plot demands, he's still falling victim to not really pushing the envelope from a design or narrative perspective and is pretty one-dimensional. I'd say the blurred line or halfway point (between good and bad) for this second option would be Kratos, because while he's Greek and perpetually ash-coated, as well as the epitome of dudebro, he does have some humanity - at least back in Ascension's day and age.
Wondering if George Stobbart (from the Broken Sword games) fits.
First of all, he's resolutely non-dudebro, but capable of heroic acts if necessary. He's very much a fish out of water, being an American on holiday in Europe at the outset of the series, so he's in an environment where he isn't quite advantaged the way the locals might be; he encounters (very mild) prejudice in a few areas. He doesn't get mixed up in the plot due to being selected or important in any way, he's just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
First of all, he's resolutely non-dudebro, but capable of heroic acts if necessary. He's very much a fish out of water, being an American on holiday in Europe at the outset of the series, so he's in an environment where he isn't quite advantaged the way the locals might be; he encounters (very mild) prejudice in a few areas. He doesn't get mixed up in the plot due to being selected or important in any way, he's just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Schweinehund
Member
This is a weird question for me because I don't have an idea of how "white males" should act, unless we're writing this as a historical timepiece or this white person has a specific status in society that is restricted by race.
Can we get a clear definition on what is white? Anglo-Saxon? I always assumed it was skin color and european heritage. I'm unsure why Spain wouldn't count.
Can we get a clear definition on what is white? Anglo-Saxon? I always assumed it was skin color and european heritage. I'm unsure why Spain wouldn't count.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I'm not sure this is exactly true historically or in the context of the game. RDR takes place shortly before the First World War, we're not talking about the West of the Gold Rush or even of the Civil War. I think the heart of RDR could have been told from nearly any ethnic viewpoint present at the time with some narrative tweaking. It was a purely human plotline, one of desperation, revenge, and of course redemption. In both the western mythos and reality, the west was about local law, local needs, local justice, people of all types converging in escape from the realities of the societies they were born into, and a desperate, hardscrabble existence regardless of race. While you're certainly right about the treatment of non-whites under the law in general in the West, the heart of John's characterization is that he is on the wrong side of the law by default. To be clear, I don't actually have an issue with your choice, as I think he is a very interestingly developed and memorable white character in gaming.
thekiddfran
Member
Max Payne, Nathan drake and joel
What little I know is from these threads are from the thread titles so I really have nothing to add. But I can definitely say that I agree with you and my example of Gordon Freeman has nothing to do with him being white either.
User 73706
Banned
I clarified it about five posts above you, and also added it to the OP.
Host Samurai
Member
Leon Kennedy
Solid Snake
Chris Redfield
Barry Burton
Raiden (MGSR)
Solid Snake
Chris Redfield
Barry Burton
Raiden (MGSR)
silvermember
Banned
If that was the OP intention he completely missed the point of why that topic exist.
It is not about whether a white males is written well, is about having more than white males be the lead characters.
Not really. White males since the beginning of modern civilization have always had advantages that other groups can only dream of. The current world system is based around the mechanism that the white males have created and thus do not need any more positive reinforcement.
Rarely has being a white male been a liability except in the U.S during that weird period where Irish and Italians were not consider white by the anglo-saxons.
I always thought they were under the category of 'hispanic'. Mainly because the Spaniards I knew labeled themselves as such.
Vermillion
Banned
Judging from OPs post above, they have to have relatively unique characterization or their whiteness has to fit with the setting/story that they're in.
As an example of the latter - Bruce Wayne comes from old money, Captain America is the son of Irish immigrants. These things are important to their characters.
Ezio is from Italy. Etcetera.
I believe your clarification is poor and puts too much weight on race. It's searching for something that isn't really there. They are just good characters. You're painting on the racial qualities yourself.
EightBitNate
Member
I'm curious to see what a "bad" white protagonist is
SuperAngelo64
Banned
This is gonna eventually turn into a "Is <X character> Pretty-boy White or J-pop Asian?" shit show.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
The truest American heroes.
Beep boop. I don't understand the difference either.
Edit: Never mind, I read the clarification.
George Stobbart and Joel from TLOU?
Solid Snake?
User 73706
Banned
It's meant to be an extension of that discussion, not a juxtaposition.
Oh, hell no. Leave Pokemon and Final Fantasy out of this.
Schweinehund
Member
Hispanic, as I understand it, means that some of their ancestry is derived from Spain, but also from some of the Native Americans that were here.
Vermillion
Banned
Marcus Fenix and Sam Fisher (much as I love the latter) are pretty basic.
EightBitNate
Member
So does that make them "bad" or just boring?
silvermember
Banned
LOL
Hispanic is not a race it is an ethnicity. You can be a Black, Asian and White Hispanic. It has never been a race.
It is funny, the was a time where Italians and Irish were not considered white, either in the U.S.
Dunno why "white guy" TBH but I'd say Joel from TLOU seems pretty grounded and reacts in a way that a normal guy might act.
He isn't an a-typical square jawed idiot. Yes he is violent but the world he lives in has made him that way. He get's hurt, has feelings (repressed ones) and shows a sensitive side once in a while also he doesn't seem racist or sexist at all.
He isn't an a-typical square jawed idiot. Yes he is violent but the world he lives in has made him that way. He get's hurt, has feelings (repressed ones) and shows a sensitive side once in a while also he doesn't seem racist or sexist at all.
*applause* Well said.
Vermillion
Banned
It doesn't make them good or "done right." The point is to highlight those characters that are good or done right. It doesn't mean that the omissions are bad, per-se. Rather, they're just a standard straight white male character in a medium saturated with them.
Joel and pretty much every secondary relevant character in TLOU. He (they) are believable, act in understandable ways and correctly reflect their context.
John Marsten in RDR is pretty good although of course he's stuck in an open world that easily undermines character consistency but hey let's not blame John for that.
And I don't care about ethnicity I'll always love Manny in Grim Fandango - great character and it'll be good to see him back.
Most characters for me quickly become either simply a visual avatar or fall apart due to ongoing inconsistencies.
John Marsten in RDR is pretty good although of course he's stuck in an open world that easily undermines character consistency but hey let's not blame John for that.
And I don't care about ethnicity I'll always love Manny in Grim Fandango - great character and it'll be good to see him back.
Most characters for me quickly become either simply a visual avatar or fall apart due to ongoing inconsistencies.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Apologies for any misrepresentation from my poor choice of words.
I'm gonna be honest, when asked if I'm white of hispanic origin I never know how to respond even though I'm like 1/3 Canary Islander.
Vermillion
Banned
What makes them unique? Just that they're in a game with good writing? Seems like the standard father-daughter story with an adopted daughter. But I don't know too much about the game, so... elaborate, please?
many places
Member
Are you complaining because of the thread derail or because of "whiteness being celebrated?"
that's one hella confusing OP, man. I don't quite grasp what you're asking...a white male protagonist with a good attitude and humanity? If so, then Pit might be an example
as a divine entity perhaps he doesn't fully qualify as human, but he certainly talks, acts and behaves like a good teenage boy. Enthusiastic, idealistic, full of energy, fearless but can get quite scared at the enemy in front of him, has a good sense of humour, he will do anything to protect Palutena and her realm, loves hot springs
as a divine entity perhaps he doesn't fully qualify as human, but he certainly talks, acts and behaves like a good teenage boy. Enthusiastic, idealistic, full of energy, fearless but can get quite scared at the enemy in front of him, has a good sense of humour, he will do anything to protect Palutena and her realm, loves hot springs
Freeman
Banned
RE characters? Master Chief? If those are the good examples I guess there are no bad ones.
To me,Joel is probably the best example, extremely believable and relatable.
Nathan Drake is great aside the fact that he is a completely insane yet charming mass murder.
John Marston is good but I think he could have more personality, out of Rockstar characters Trevor is by far the best.
I can't help but like Snake and Big Boss too, they might not be the most believable but they are cool.
I really liked Alan Wake but I can't barely remember his personality, so I think it was't very distinguishable.
To me,Joel is probably the best example, extremely believable and relatable.
Nathan Drake is great aside the fact that he is a completely insane yet charming mass murder.
John Marston is good but I think he could have more personality, out of Rockstar characters Trevor is by far the best.
I can't help but like Snake and Big Boss too, they might not be the most believable but they are cool.
I really liked Alan Wake but I can't barely remember his personality, so I think it was't very distinguishable.
flatearthpandas
Member
Many of the replies on the first page are so off base it's almost insane. Of course, I'm also struggling to think of a good answer. I guess I should clarify that the original OP seemed pretty crystal clear to me as "white character 'done right' " meaning characters that "justify" their whiteness in that you could not have the same story with non-white characters.
Tony Hawk and all the white skaters for obvious reasons (not great, but you can't really argue with them being their respective races)
Eternal Darkness has a varied cast of badasses of both genders and many nationalities, but I think the white characters are justified through their social station in their respective time periods for the most part.
Pious and Peter, as a Roman Centurion and a dude in WWII London could probably have been different races without much damage, save for being a Centurion, which really isn't that integral.
Anthony lives in a monastery in the time of Charlemagne.
Maximilian Roivas is a rich American doctor who built his mansion in the wrong spot. Without going into too much detail, his social station, money, and profession all have significant impact on the rest of the story. Being that the two other Roivas' are related to him, I guess they're whiteness is justified to some degree. Although another family could have certainly taken over the mansion, I would regret losing the sense of family history that is revealed through the game.
Tony Hawk and all the white skaters for obvious reasons (not great, but you can't really argue with them being their respective races)
Eternal Darkness has a varied cast of badasses of both genders and many nationalities, but I think the white characters are justified through their social station in their respective time periods for the most part.
Pious and Peter, as a Roman Centurion and a dude in WWII London could probably have been different races without much damage, save for being a Centurion, which really isn't that integral.
Anthony lives in a monastery in the time of Charlemagne.
Maximilian Roivas is a rich American doctor who built his mansion in the wrong spot. Without going into too much detail, his social station, money, and profession all have significant impact on the rest of the story. Being that the two other Roivas' are related to him, I guess they're whiteness is justified to some degree. Although another family could have certainly taken over the mansion, I would regret losing the sense of family history that is revealed through the game.
Max Payne 3
The game made me feel uncomfortable. His interactions with the locals, like just stumbling through that street party, the bar scene, the " I don't speak your fucking language" line. Rockstar crafts these awesome mechanics, makes Max stick out like a blazing white sore thumb, & then has you decimate poor people (stereotyped Italians too, of course) I felt they did iton purpose & the effect would have been lost had Max not been white.
The game made me feel uncomfortable. His interactions with the locals, like just stumbling through that street party, the bar scene, the " I don't speak your fucking language" line. Rockstar crafts these awesome mechanics, makes Max stick out like a blazing white sore thumb, & then has you decimate poor people (stereotyped Italians too, of course) I felt they did iton purpose & the effect would have been lost had Max not been white.
Prototype Viktor
Member
^ thisJoseph Capelli, Resistance 3.
Dishonorably discharged from the SPRA for the death of Nathan Hale at the end of Resistance 2, Joseph Capelli found himself in a precarious position at the beginning of Resistance 3. His motivation for fighting across country to stop the Chimera provided for some of the most underrated narrative moments in an FPS last gen. The farewell radio broadcast to his wife and son provided for the perfect lull in time before the climax of the trilogy.
Insomniac deserved better.
I'm well aware; I'm half Italian myself.
1st - Some? they all white, really having a hard time remembering a none white one,but Niko bellic which is actually thecnically white
2nd - I liked john Marston, trevor, that pumped dude from gta4, rock star has the best AAA writters IMO. As for regular space marine I do like Marcus Fenix for the most part
3rd - never actually felt anything for Nathan drake, he is fine but his jokes are too white-dorky, I mean don't get me wrong at least he is not a total snore fest ike Aiden Pearce but he is just to dorky, to nice for being a killing machine.
4th - No one asked, but I just fucking hate Aiden Pearce... dullest, douchiest, boriest, stereotypical white male protagonist in a while. Is like Ubi writers are 13.
2nd - I liked john Marston, trevor, that pumped dude from gta4, rock star has the best AAA writters IMO. As for regular space marine I do like Marcus Fenix for the most part
3rd - never actually felt anything for Nathan drake, he is fine but his jokes are too white-dorky, I mean don't get me wrong at least he is not a total snore fest ike Aiden Pearce but he is just to dorky, to nice for being a killing machine.
4th - No one asked, but I just fucking hate Aiden Pearce... dullest, douchiest, boriest, stereotypical white male protagonist in a while. Is like Ubi writers are 13.
Wiktor
Member
There are like hundreds of them, so it's very easy to keep naming more of them.
Some of my faves:
Gabriel Knight, flawed, messy guy,. No powers, no combat skills and yet he's supposed to fight monsters and he does it pretty well by being crafty, while at the same time pretty damn charming
David Styles - disfigured, broken by wife's death, cold and very assholish and yet charismatic and overall fascinating to follow
Some of my faves:
Gabriel Knight, flawed, messy guy,. No powers, no combat skills and yet he's supposed to fight monsters and he does it pretty well by being crafty, while at the same time pretty damn charming
David Styles - disfigured, broken by wife's death, cold and very assholish and yet charismatic and overall fascinating to follow