You could pretty much say that about MG and MG2. The fact that Kojima spent all of V trying to plug up a plot hole that doesn't even exist in MG2 (which has already been retconned to hell, making both MG and MG2 essentially non canon) is hilarious.
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Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
You could pretty much say that about MG and MG2. The fact that Kojima spent all of V trying to plug up a plot hole that doesn't even exist in MG2 (which has already been retconned to hell, making both MG and MG2 essentially non canon) is hilarious.
HammerOfThor
Member
Welp finally beat the game. To be honest I enjoyed the ending. The only question thats really burning in my head right now tho is was the Big Boss at the end of MGS4 Venom Snake or Big Boss? I could have sworn he explained his body was regenerated, insinuating that it was Venom Snake since Big Boss never would have died until MGS4, right?
Explained in the timeline crawl after credits, he was the real deal
cj_iwakura
Member
Venom Snake died at the end of MG1. Hopefully listening to Asia.
Deleted. Maybe do more than post a link?
Ruse cruise
Donna Burke tweeted a pic of some islands not unlike the ones in the extra content regarding episode 51. "the island's still there, I saw 3 kinds of butterflies today".
Kojima has been super cryptic with his posts since launch, many of the tweets are movies and shows. The recurring theme is the number 3. Last one was Superman 3.
What was the subtitle for superman 3 again?
Disarm them nukes brehs
Donna Burke tweeted a pic of some islands not unlike the ones in the extra content regarding episode 51. "the island's still there, I saw 3 kinds of butterflies today".
Kojima has been super cryptic with his posts since launch, many of the tweets are movies and shows. The recurring theme is the number 3. Last one was Superman 3.
What was the subtitle for superman 3 again?
Disarm them nukes brehs
So I just posted this response in the Super Best Friends Play thread in regards to their discussion on their MGSV spoilercast, and I figured I'd repost it here since it's relevant. It's a similar conclusion to what I've posted here before, but I was finally able to flesh it out more:
sebastianrial
Neo Member
Kept you waiting huh?
Coreda
Member
Anyone else find it strange that Motherbase staff seem to imply that they are now aware Venom isn't Big Boss?
The ending suggests that Venom continues the act and no one apart from Ocelot, Kaz, Zero and Naked Snake know the truth, going so far as to say that Motherbase would fall apart and disband if they knew the real Big Boss wasn't running things.
Some examples that only start being stated following completion of Mission #46:
The ending suggests that Venom continues the act and no one apart from Ocelot, Kaz, Zero and Naked Snake know the truth, going so far as to say that Motherbase would fall apart and disband if they knew the real Big Boss wasn't running things.
Some examples that only start being stated following completion of Mission #46:
GreyOcelot
Member
Anyone else find it strange that Motherbase staff seem to imply that they are now aware Venom isn't Big Boss?
The ending suggests that Venom continues the act and no one apart from Ocelot, Kaz, Zero and Naked Snake know the truth, going so far as to say that Motherbase would fall apart and disband if they knew the real Big Boss wasn't running things.
Some examples that only start being stated following completion of Mission #46:
i think this is a tongue in cheek breaking of the 4th wall. you the player aren't the real big boss, but the soldiers you recruited respect what you've done all the same
I don't think he would be with Big Boss on the chopper if he was some no good scrub. He has to be very trusted and skilled.
But to be fair nothing about this game indicates Venom is too skilled or overpowered. He gets a lot of help from Motherbase and his buddies. Nothing about him is as bad ass as some of the stuff Big Boss or Solid Snake had to do in previous entries. He is just a regular guy and you are even able to avoid some of the boss fights in the game. I think Kojima balanced it out fairly. Especially when you consider Venom's ultimate fate.
You beat Sahalentropus, skulls and at the end of quiet battle ocelot even tells you :" you beat her without killing her? you re still the best" or something like that, this, the cqc,all the weapons he used, tactics, his human side (with quiet, virus etc etc etc) and you think he is a regular foe with help from the motherbase?
The first mission to rescue Kaz you go all by yourself, and that place is way bigger than ground zeroes base, so how can you tell me he´s just a regular soldier?
The first mission to rescue Kaz you go all by yourself, and that place is way bigger than ground zeroes base, so how can you tell me he´s just a regular soldier?
You can beat Sahelanthropus using a tank. You have infinite supply drops with infinite ammo and every gun imaginable at your disposal with an army of thousands of S rank soldiers. You have a super mutant sharpshooter at your side and a dog that can see through walls
oh and a robot with state of the art AI as a buddy as well. You run away from man on fire over n over again. You avoid the sniper skulls and fight off the others with buddies. You don't have to fight skull face and you don't even have a final boss in the game or any type of hard thing to overcome.Venom is just a regular guy with no great abilities at all. The shit Solid Snake and Big Boss had to do in their solo adventures dwarf Venom's hardship. The only hard thing Venom had to do is lay in a coma for nearly a decade. And in the end he will eventually die at the hands of a 20 year old punk voiced David Hayter.
You are not the real Big Boss. That is the point of the game. You are just given that title.
Peace walker had unlimited suppy and ammo too, But you have to get those soldiers too, and the theme of this game its "freedom" yeah i could use all that but i canalso go butnaked too and beat everyone, thats an option the game gives you and you can be sucessefull with it too, its about to you the way he becames a great soldier, and for me venom is in pair with big boss.
AgentLampshade
Member
Big Boss has the power of the health bar.
But Venom didn't do anything. The real Big Boss killed the mother of special forces and the Cobra unit. He also prevented an all out nuclear war between Russia and America which would have ended the world. Same with Solid Snake who basically killed everyone in his path accomplishing all missions.
Venom was a failure. He couldn't save Paz and he dies himself eventually. He couldn't even kill Skull Face (Eli basically did). He executed a bunch of his own innocent comrades in mission 43. Everything that Venom accomplished was with the help of Kaz, Ocelot and his army that provided him with intel. The only reason he escaped the hospital was with the help of the real BIg Boss. He would have died otherwise. He couldn't do anything on his own the entire game. Venom is a helpless coward and a fraud. He is a nobody.
The bias is strong with that one.
Guess Big Boss and Solid Snake have always saved everybody.
Guess Big Boss and Solid Snake are immortal.
Guess Big Boss and Solid Snake have defeated all of their enemies, directly and without any help.
I mean, I can do that, too:
Solid Snake was a failure. He couldn't save Ema and he dies himself eventually. He couldn't even kill Liquid (Naomi basically did).
Coreda
Member
Whether you see his actions from a story perspective as substantial is its own debate, but ultimately the entire series is still the player controlling the character and progressing a story.
In any game, and regardless of what character is being controlled, the player will die like a chump to various enemies yet those failures aren't attributed to the playable character but the player's own skill. The Phantom Pain is no different. It can be played with or without additional aid/backup/etc, and each time skill and success or failure is still in the hands of the player, outside of the forced story narrative.
Venom being revealed as Big Boss' double only makes the proxy between the player and the character more explicit. It has always been us pulling the strings behind the scenes no matter which character we've been playing as.
The point I'm making is Venom doesn't have any special skills or abilities. People keep saying he was transformed into Big Boss while he was in a coma but its not true. Big Boss and Solid Snake have legacies because of what they achieved. Their names are known for Snake Eater, Peacewalker, MG, MG2 and MGS1. Both of those guys are renown super soldiers who made a name for themselves. Venom doesn't have any of that. Like at all. He is just a stepping stone for Solid Snake. He is a failure and a fraud.
Its pretty much the entire point of MGSV. Everything you do in the game is meaningless because it will all be dead or destroyed in the next game. Venom will die and the Outer Heaven you spent hundred of hours building will be destroyed. Its actually genius design by Kojima but he will probably never get credit for staying true to the lore of the series.
[citation needed]
Coreda
Member
From a strictly story point of view yes, they both achieved wildly different things, but from a player point of view there's no difference.
If Phantom Pain had no ending twist and it was in fact the original Big Boss we were playing as it would have made zero gameplay or achievement difference. And that's the point: anything notable the playable character has achieved in any game has for the most part been at the hands of the player not the character themselves. Venom personifies this in a way.
In any case I don't consider Venom a fraud or failure. Even the staff at Motherbase don't have a problem with it (they say as much), and ultimately Kaz sees more reason to despise the real Big Boss for what he pulled, Venom largely being blameless due to hypnosis. Hell if it weren't for him Big Boss would probably be dead.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
another example of the fact that the game give us hints all the time
in the radiography we can see that the right eye is normal.
Oooo - that's a good find!
GreyOcelot
Member
not really. getting the your eyeball shot out wouldn't show up on a radiograph, he didn't have any bones broken around the orbit
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Shows what I know XD
Haunted
Member
Have you played MGSV?
If the intent was to present him as a failure and an unskilled fool, they probably shouldn't have made him the most competent and skilled main character in the series... by far.
Consider the amount of tank units he takes out on his own, the amount of villages and bases he infiltrates and clears out, the empire he builds for himself - it makes MGS1's SSnake and MGS3's NSnake look like fucking rookie chumps.
Anyone else find it strange that Motherbase staff seem to imply that they are now aware Venom isn't Big Boss?
The ending suggests that Venom continues the act and no one apart from Ocelot, Kaz, Zero and Naked Snake know the truth, going so far as to say that Motherbase would fall apart and disband if they knew the real Big Boss wasn't running things.
Some examples that only start being stated following completion of Mission #46:
I thought that was only said when you're in Demon form (all bloody)
Coreda
Member
Have been nuke free and typically use a non-lethal sortie so I've avoided demon form.
I disagree, he has an army backing him up, doesn't fight as many bosses as SS or BB and he is weak like every other MGS[stealth] protagonist. I don't know if its intentional but he is no super human compared to SS or BB.
So I just couldn't do it anymore and I went and watched the last two missions on YouTube. I got tired of not being able to unlock them and Konami really spoiled my enjoyment of the game from top to bottom. I almost regret doing it. But ultimately it saved me 3 hours and another few weeks of never completing the game.
These goddamn mind games. I want to deflect all my issues with Snake onto the fact that he was a new person. And that's what I'm going to do. Because I can. Edit: My issues being that he wasn't as lethal, merciless, spoke less, less decisive and overall just a softer character. His feats were also less impressive. But he was a better "combat solider". End edit. Act 3 was amazing too. I really really want to play it but if the way MGS ends is with 20 minutes of cutscenes and a cutscene where KojiPro basically talks to the player, I'm fine with that. MGSV wasn't so distraught that it ruins the journey of the rest of the games.
If anyone has a mashup of all the cut content that'd be great. I choose not to be sad anymore about this. MGS is finished and it did so in spectacular Metal Gear fashion.
These goddamn mind games. I want to deflect all my issues with Snake onto the fact that he was a new person. And that's what I'm going to do. Because I can. Edit: My issues being that he wasn't as lethal, merciless, spoke less, less decisive and overall just a softer character. His feats were also less impressive. But he was a better "combat solider". End edit. Act 3 was amazing too. I really really want to play it but if the way MGS ends is with 20 minutes of cutscenes and a cutscene where KojiPro basically talks to the player, I'm fine with that. MGSV wasn't so distraught that it ruins the journey of the rest of the games.
If anyone has a mashup of all the cut content that'd be great. I choose not to be sad anymore about this. MGS is finished and it did so in spectacular Metal Gear fashion.
GreyOcelot
Member
the only concrete cut content we have is a short clip from the e3 2014 trailer that didn't show up in the game (with venom kneeling, screaming in a burnt down village in africa, which for some reason just became a quick radio call during the first mission there) and episode 51, which can be seen on youtube.
everything else would be assumptions. personally, it seems like some of the tapes were supposed to be cutscenes, especially some of the truth tapes, perhaps the tape with snake and miller discussing les enfant terribles. I assume at one point you going to be able to see and talk to the various characters in and around mother base, where some of that tape content could have been used. i also assume that episode 45 was supposed to be something more than just a cut and paste job of the prologue.
either kojima needed a few more months with the game to implement this stuff or konami simply cut his resources so much towards the end that he couldn't do anything about it. at the very least the lack of conclusion with episode 51 and the odd way ep 45 plays out is an indication of this. they could have scrapped most of episode 51 and simply had a copy and pasted sehelathropus battle in an area of africa with a very short cut scene indicating that eli had been stopped.
Give it up mate, there's no chapter 3
Haunted
Member
Finally figured out where the "lust for revenge" line comes from after watching the cut scene. Holy shit that delivery was awful and hilarious. Couldn't stop laughing once I connected the dots.
I love the gameplay in MGSV, but I really think the story is a burning pile of garbage. Vocal chord attuning virus? Skin breathing red herrings? Convoluted main character swaps? It's a hot mess.
I also dislike how Kojima continues to insist on using forced exposition cutscenes to explain all his insane plot devices. Having to sit with Skull Face for a 10 minute Jeep drive and listen to him explain his world domination plan is awful storytelling no matter what medium you're in. After this many games, Kojima should be capable of telling the story without someone telling you directly every plot detail. There's no nuance.
Anyway, I actually loved the game because of how much freedom there is in gameplay, but the plot just jumped the shark like every other MGS game.
I love the gameplay in MGSV, but I really think the story is a burning pile of garbage. Vocal chord attuning virus? Skin breathing red herrings? Convoluted main character swaps? It's a hot mess.
I also dislike how Kojima continues to insist on using forced exposition cutscenes to explain all his insane plot devices. Having to sit with Skull Face for a 10 minute Jeep drive and listen to him explain his world domination plan is awful storytelling no matter what medium you're in. After this many games, Kojima should be capable of telling the story without someone telling you directly every plot detail. There's no nuance.
Anyway, I actually loved the game because of how much freedom there is in gameplay, but the plot just jumped the shark like every other MGS game.
The main theme about mgs games are to make you control a "normal" soldier but a soldier nonetheless. Of course he has more strenght than your average neighboor and of course he knows how to shoot, but compared to other video games characters, he seems vulnerable. Other games ask you to destroy your ennemies by facing them and overpower them while mgs force you to snake behind them and remain unseen. The most impressive stuff that the snakes have done have been done in cinematics. I agree mgsv is not on the same line.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I dunno about that. If we take only MGS1 as an example, all the impressive stuff he does is player controlled and, in all but one or two cases, involve Snake fighting his opponent head to head: Sneaking into a heavily fortified compound, HIND-D, M4 Abrams (?) Tank, Gray Fox, each member of Foxhound (including a head on confrontation with a psychic), and Metal Gear REX. I can't think of any cutscenes where he does anything more impressive.
So yeah, I finally beaten it; 4 months later but I'm finally here.
All of this would be the case if you accept that all the support you can throw at is just a symptom of the concept of building an army and not literally an indication that you, the player, just so happen to have the right support to make up for the lack of consecutive, legendary, one-man army skills that would be needed to prevent the world from blowing up.
I'm still in a limbo on rather I can accept this or not...knowing the development troubles and the game's dark themes and uncomfortable elements that seem to reflect that, coming to acknowledge that MGS4 was not the game of the last generation, the fact that so much of the story seem more a stop gap then an actual progression towards Metal Gear...as that Super Bunnyhop video ended...what this game's phantom pain will be is guessing what was intentional and what was not...
If that was intentional. Even with all the support, they won't help you if you are incapable of weaving and bobbing lasers, missiles, gun fire, etc. And with the world on the line, relying it's survival on some dude we've never heard of and apparently was some 3rd or more in command for a year gets really wonky. I'm more willing to believe in prehistoric super microorganisms then the fact that, and I think it was only referenced in one sentence, how this shit was even possible was due to coma-based hallucinogenic techniques like it's not that big of a deal. I suppose maybe Big Boss' life indicated that there were forces that somehow made the future (Solid Snake's games) look like shit and behind the times and that the lone person started to become irrelevant compared to how this franchise started but I can imagine being able to just turn one's mind into the Boss' would be the biggest game changer in warfare history, where you don't need a warhorse, just a few dudes and duddetes single-handily dismantling your enemies for you at the fraction of the cost compared to probably all the other options available at the time of this franchise' fiction.
All of this would be the case if you accept that all the support you can throw at is just a symptom of the concept of building an army and not literally an indication that you, the player, just so happen to have the right support to make up for the lack of consecutive, legendary, one-man army skills that would be needed to prevent the world from blowing up.
What comes down to rather the player can accept him or herself as "Big Boss"/Kojima's protege/customer/fan or not. It is a rather brilliant thing if this was an original game but since it's a prequel, it can be perceived as simply a desperate attempt to salvage his "world" and that he sacrificed his canon just so he can say #FucKonami.
I'm still in a limbo on rather I can accept this or not...knowing the development troubles and the game's dark themes and uncomfortable elements that seem to reflect that, coming to acknowledge that MGS4 was not the game of the last generation, the fact that so much of the story seem more a stop gap then an actual progression towards Metal Gear...as that Super Bunnyhop video ended...what this game's phantom pain will be is guessing what was intentional and what was not...
Roni
Gold Member
His objective was to kill/weaken dominant languages and reset the world balance to a state of segregated countries, each with their own culture and language.
He wanted to stop colonization and globalization, since he felt that could kill someone's true identity as a member of a particular culture by impregnating it with elements of a bigger, more successful culture.
For that, the Vocal Cord Parasites were far more useful than any Metal Gear or uranium enriching archea.
see OP
so i'm seeing that it isn't actually a playable thing in the game. eli and the kids take slobberhantupus. okay .. so the "you were not actually BIG BOSS" thing is the real end of the game? i'm fine with that..
i finished the quiet exit mission late last night and thought the game was over. i was tired af and ready for bed. then i realized there was that last mission to do. i was like "fuck it i'll do it, i want this to be over". then it turns out its the most agonizing shit of crawling through the hospital again. WHEW that was tough to get through. i liked the "twist" and everything .. but damn. i'm just glad its over.