-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Person of Interest The Fifth and Final Season |OT| "Thank you for creating me."
- Thread starter Sober
- Start date
- Status
I think this episode, more than any other, is feeling the pressure of a shortened season.
Specifically, the Ice-9 virus is what annoys me the most. I realize the drawbacks make it a last resort, but we've spent like 2.5 seasons total with the team running around under the threat of Samaritan, and now all of a sudden, here's this clear and easy plot macguffin that kills the greatest threat that exists in the show. It's just way too sudden. This is something that should have been introduced back mid season 4 or at the very least at the beginning of 5 and had the team not use it because of the great cost, only to bring it here now that they realize it's the only way to win.
As someone said, Fucso's subplot could have been removed. It's not bad, but for a series that's running so short on time, it's unnecessary. Why not have him help out Reese and Shaw? Just have him meet up with them somehow. Similarly, the only real relevant simulation of a world without the machine is the Samaritan one coming online. It's good to see those alternate futures, but those were more appropriate for an average episode, not the penultimate finale.
And what is with Samaritan's mind completely changing? When did this happen? As of the last two episodes, Samaritan wants the machine to join it when in season 4 it vowed to kill it and seemed quite eager to do so (because it viewed it as vengeance for the machine trying to kill it). Whats this all of a sudden of wanting a partner? And Greer, come on man. I totally buy that you would jump on a grenade if the machine told you to, but that is the worst queen sacrifice I ever seen. Harold is a crippled, nonviolent old man, just take out a gun and shoot him.
I wish I could say the writers wrote themselves into a corner that that they might have been able to write themselves out of with more time, but also I feel these were pretty clumsy errors in writing.
Specifically, the Ice-9 virus is what annoys me the most. I realize the drawbacks make it a last resort, but we've spent like 2.5 seasons total with the team running around under the threat of Samaritan, and now all of a sudden, here's this clear and easy plot macguffin that kills the greatest threat that exists in the show. It's just way too sudden. This is something that should have been introduced back mid season 4 or at the very least at the beginning of 5 and had the team not use it because of the great cost, only to bring it here now that they realize it's the only way to win.
As someone said, Fucso's subplot could have been removed. It's not bad, but for a series that's running so short on time, it's unnecessary. Why not have him help out Reese and Shaw? Just have him meet up with them somehow. Similarly, the only real relevant simulation of a world without the machine is the Samaritan one coming online. It's good to see those alternate futures, but those were more appropriate for an average episode, not the penultimate finale.
And what is with Samaritan's mind completely changing? When did this happen? As of the last two episodes, Samaritan wants the machine to join it when in season 4 it vowed to kill it and seemed quite eager to do so (because it viewed it as vengeance for the machine trying to kill it). Whats this all of a sudden of wanting a partner? And Greer, come on man. I totally buy that you would jump on a grenade if the machine told you to, but that is the worst queen sacrifice I ever seen. Harold is a crippled, nonviolent old man, just take out a gun and shoot him.
I wish I could say the writers wrote themselves into a corner that that they might have been able to write themselves out of with more time, but also I feel these were pretty clumsy errors in writing.
I'm not sure I can disagree more with this sentiment of Greer's death being cool or appropriate in the wake of how completely pointless it was. He didn't know Finch's password to activate Ice-9, and surely even if he figured it out he never would have used it. Finch was the only threat in that room, so Greer giving his life in that particular moment isn't even a "sacrifice play," because him dying didn't offer Samaritan's side literally any sort of tactical advantage at all. He could have just shot Finch dead. Or walked out of the room and then sealed it, letting Finch suffocate inside by himself. Or let ISA black-bag Finch into a 200 foot deep hole somewhere. No, instead he tries to form this grandiose gesture of he and Finch, the two "parents" dying together...seemingly for no more reason than making a symbolic statement of some kind? It's a loss of an asset for no tactical gain whatsoever, and that kind of senseless sentimentality is supposed to be totally counter to Samaritan's utilitarian philosophy.
I still liked the episode overall, and I agree that the "where we would be without the machine" idea probably would have been expanded a lot more if this season weren't cut short, but the fact that there were two instances within fifteen minutes of each other with these needlessly contrived ways to escape character death feels like cheap writing and I come away slightly disappointed.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
I liked his death to the point where we're obviously suffering from a shortened season, and Greer had to die, and it was either that or having a death like Martine's which was pretty bad.
But I understand your points, and do share them, but I have to enjoy what I can.
I also suppose that they were able to get away with Samaritan wanting to unite with the Machine in the same way they were able to get away with Samaritan wanting to kill/capture Finch. If it had the chance to capture it and make it join Samaritan, if not, destroy it.
But yeah, it was still so sudden.
But I understand your points, and do share them, but I have to enjoy what I can.
I also suppose that they were able to get away with Samaritan wanting to unite with the Machine in the same way they were able to get away with Samaritan wanting to kill/capture Finch. If it had the chance to capture it and make it join Samaritan, if not, destroy it.
But yeah, it was still so sudden.
Logically it made no god damn sense, but I like that they put a spotlight on his death. He did something memorable before going out, it wasn't some embarrassing mook kill like Martine, Lambert and Zachary.
oh yeah, the thing that popped in my mind, on Fusco's storyline, was that it was a symmetrical scene for him, going back to the pilot where he's taking Reese out to Oyster Bay to die. This time, he's in the backseat of a car, with a guy who forgot to search him properly.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
I disagree. Killing Finch is a tactical advantage in of itself. Team Machine loses a cerebral tech guy/spotter/strategist, and The Machine loses Admin, who has been more than central in carrying out her missions, whether it involved numbers or preventing major threats. However in terms of the plot itself, the goal was to prevent Ice-9 from being activated. Which was the entire point of Greer's play. By knowing Finch is the only one who knows the password, he ensures that Ice-9 will never be activated. That in of itself is a utilitarian mode of action. I think you're focusing too much on the metaphor aspect of Greer's dialogue. Yes, he does state sacrifice, but in past episodes, Greer has mentioned that he would let himself die/be viewed as a threat by Samaritan if it leads to good things. He followed through with it in this episode by preventing (or at the very least, try to) Ice-9 from being launched. Furthermore, the thing about Greer is that he's a completely passive Admin. He only follows through on what Samaritan carries out for him. He's nowhere near as active or relevant as Finch. In fact, if you remove Greer from the equation entirely, nothing would have changed in terms of goals and motivations. Samaritan Ops will still acquire intel to kill disruptors/irrelevant numbers/threats to its existence. The significance of Greer was to envision and bring to light a world where humans were no longer the central figures in a power position. That's why he went after Samaritan in the first place. After all of that, he demoted himself and took orders from what he perceived as God.
I noticed that book end as well, but I think it makes the assassin out to be a moron, when I expected better of him I guess.
My actual thoughts when Fusco got shot: "He's probably wearing a vest...wait no, no way this dude would be so stupid as to do that."
You sure showed me PoI
Fusco wasn't exactly a bright man back then, either.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Because he's probably basing tactics off his sidekick, Greer, who was James Bond back in the day:
Greer is basically the hero who lived long enough to see himself become the Bond villain, and Samaritan is just ripping shit out of his trite, overly-dramatic playbook. Obvs.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I thought that was pretty great. Dark Finch is spectacular. Greer dying in a hilariously Shakespearean way was funny and fitting. Fusco's plotline was eh, but it's fine for the wrapping up the missing bodies and the symmetry. Too bad that they couldn't get Teraji for a cameo as the Lieutenant, lol.
Okay, so Harold deployed the virus. Samaritan started glitching. Is Samaritan dead? Is the Machine dead? I mean, there's one more episode, so the threat must be ongoing. Maybe Samaritan's gone insane now. Wreaking havoc.
Also loved how Harold used "her" and "she" at the end when referring to the Machine.
Okay, so Harold deployed the virus. Samaritan started glitching. Is Samaritan dead? Is the Machine dead? I mean, there's one more episode, so the threat must be ongoing. Maybe Samaritan's gone insane now. Wreaking havoc.
Also loved how Harold used "her" and "she" at the end when referring to the Machine.
xrnzaaas
Member
Yep something about this episode screamed that they didn't have enough time to build the whole story (especially the virus plot)... which is kind of strange because they knew about the shorter season from the start and they could get rid of the last few PoI of the week episodes.
Anyway I'm still very eager to see what happens in the finale since the last scene might have as well been the ending.
Anyway I'm still very eager to see what happens in the finale since the last scene might have as well been the ending.
I keep thinking about it and I can't find a good, satisfying explanation for Greer's pointless sacrifice.
He could have left Harold alone in that same room to suffocate at any point and continue monologuing from the outside.
The only way I can think it sort of makes sense, in a psychopathic way, is if Samaritan is so Paranoid that it would rather Admin, who helped build him, dies and many of his own secrets with him, which would make it that much harder for anyone in the future to pose a threat to Samaritan. Basically just knowing its design, and that Ice-9 had been implanted, was a death flag.
How very Pharaonic (all who built this pyramid shall be burried with it) of Samaritan...
The other explanation of course being that the writters needed a dramatic death scene by Greer while monologuing, and a slow but escapable at the very last second death for Finch.
He could have left Harold alone in that same room to suffocate at any point and continue monologuing from the outside.
The only way I can think it sort of makes sense, in a psychopathic way, is if Samaritan is so Paranoid that it would rather Admin, who helped build him, dies and many of his own secrets with him, which would make it that much harder for anyone in the future to pose a threat to Samaritan. Basically just knowing its design, and that Ice-9 had been implanted, was a death flag.
How very Pharaonic (all who built this pyramid shall be burried with it) of Samaritan...
The other explanation of course being that the writters needed a dramatic death scene by Greer while monologuing, and a slow but escapable at the very last second death for Finch.
Killing Finch was a big gain in preventing the activation of Ice-9, yes. But in no way did Greer dying help to facilitate the goal of stopping the virus nor killing Finch. If Samaritan viewed Greer as a threat rather than an asset, he would have been dead long before this.
Another thing that's been bugging me. Samaritan obviously had access to the computers in that building, and we've seen tons of examples of what the ASIs can do...why just sit there helplessly and allow Finch to input the password right in front of it? Could it not simply block access? Deactivate the computer's microphone? Remotely shut down or overheat and destroy every computer terminal in that room? It could have rendered the entire building dark if it wanted to, made the inputting of the password at that time literally impossible and hoped some Samaritan ops would take Finch out before he got out of the building. I again have to chalk this up to the shortened season, but at the end of a series that's usually been lauded for being smartly-written, Samaritan and its assets have been displaying a remarkable amount of incompetence in this endgame.
Sax Russel
Banned
Whyyyy did I watch that
[SCREAMS INTERNALLY]
Why did I watch that. How am I going to survive this week?
As for the current episode, I did like it, but as others have said, we really get into the territory now where more time would have been better. The whole ICE-9 thing, Greer's death (even though his speech was pretty cool, his death was so unnecessary here), dark Finch... Man, dark Finch would have made such a cool villain for a whole season, but nooooo. CBS killed the show.
BibleThump BibleThump BibleThump
This promo makes it seem like
Finch
Reese
Reese
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
sir_dany12
Member
Fuck that teaser. The emotions
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Fack no, I ain't falling.
Cripplegate
Member
Not watching that promo.
No way.
No way.
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
re: Greer
Greer's only real purpose has for quite a while been directly dealing with operatives of the Machine (both as a sort of liaison and a catalyst for turning them), chiefly Finch. He already failed to turn Shaw, and had been unsuccessful with Finch thus far. After Finch definitively proved he was never going to be turned and was able to get the last bit of information he needed from Finch, Greer ceased to be relevant.
I don't think Greer really sacrificed himself either. It was more once everything played out, Samaritan basically said "welp, we're done here". Greer just knew what was happening and chose not to fight it. He had accepted that as his fates ages ago.
Greer's only real purpose has for quite a while been directly dealing with operatives of the Machine (both as a sort of liaison and a catalyst for turning them), chiefly Finch. He already failed to turn Shaw, and had been unsuccessful with Finch thus far. After Finch definitively proved he was never going to be turned and was able to get the last bit of information he needed from Finch, Greer ceased to be relevant.
I don't think Greer really sacrificed himself either. It was more once everything played out, Samaritan basically said "welp, we're done here". Greer just knew what was happening and chose not to fight it. He had accepted that as his fates ages ago.
Cripplegate
Member
Greer has never been relevant. He declares that belief during S4.
This one was certainly contrived, moreso than other moments in the series, but POI has always leaned heavily on thematically congruent plot contrivances. For big character moments, they favor poetry over realism. That's the reason for the Fusco subplot, the insane omission of the FBI guy checking Fusco for a vest even though he physically placed him in the back of his car included. There is not simply a callback to the first season (when Fusco takes John to the same location) or an echo to The Devil's Share (when he has to decide what to do with Simmons) but also a parallelism between the immediate moral dilemma of Fusco deciding how to deal with the FBI guy and Finch deciding how to deal with Samaritan (and POI used parallelism between the street crime plots and ASI plots as a defining narrative construct in S4; it's more pointed in this case because Fusco is dealing with a Samaritan agent, while Finch deals with Samaritan itself).
More to the point of Greer's death, though, the characters in this show always get the death they deserve, or that is in some way thematically appropriate to their character arc or personal beliefs. They often meet an end that is fitting for their beliefs. In this way, Greer does get the death so many people in this thread have long been asking for: Samaritan kills Greer. It kills him without so much as a second thought (or simulation, in whatever terms an ASI thinks). Because he is irrelevant.
Jay Shadow
Member
Nah, he should let out a whaling scream and yell "I never knew how much this hurt!"
I'm assuming it's a combination of old age, and the fact he kept talking and wore himself out faster.
Ok. I just needed an acceptable explanation.
The Dutch Slayer
Member
soooooo little late E3 was is very busy as always no time for tv.
Well I had to get my poi fix.
It was kinda MEH sorry everyone
Did not really like it
Plot was all over de place Fasco was a wast, def felt super rushed, the death scene was also meh did not really feel it like in S03.
Hopefully feel better about it once the final is out.
Well I had to get my poi fix.
It was kinda MEH sorry everyone
Did not really like it
Plot was all over de place Fasco was a wast, def felt super rushed, the death scene was also meh did not really feel it like in S03
.Hopefully feel better about it once the final is out.
Any news / info if the last episode will have a few extra minutes? I am guessing not... but I sure hope so.
It has been an amazing journey. From a slightly dull/standard but entertaining Case of the Week show early on in season one (for me it really clicked around episode 7 with Elias) to this. Amazing.
It has been an amazing journey. From a slightly dull/standard but entertaining Case of the Week show early on in season one (for me it really clicked around episode 7 with Elias) to this. Amazing.
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
Any news / info if the last episode will have a few extra minutes? I am guessing not... but I sure hope so.
I really doubt it. :\
Man, that Lost finale really spoiled me. Fucking 2h30m. Granted, it had an obscene amount of commercials (the added 30 minutes on top of the two hours was only 15 minutes of actual show, the rest was commercials), but still. 1h44m without the commercials, so either way it was easily feature-film length.
Man, I don't want this show to end
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
WHAT
THE
FUCK
I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THIS IS HAPPENING. FUCK. I FUCKING KNEW IT. JOSS DON'T FUCKING DO THIS TO ME. YOU.....YOU CAN'T DO THIS. DON'T FUCKING LEAVE ME LIKE THIS. WHY DO ALL MY FAVORITE CHARACTERS DIE. I AM A GOOD FUCKING PERSON. I DON'T NEED THIS SHIT IN MY LIFE. I'M....I DON'T EVEN KNOW. I'M ACTUALLY FUCKING CRY ING THIS IS NOT FUCKING OKAY.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKAHSJDNALHFLWKXBDKSKALZMDBDPAJSWODJXKCNSLNZBDSLSKALNABDLANXOSDJOXCJ
THE
FUCK
I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THIS IS HAPPENING. FUCK. I FUCKING KNEW IT. JOSS DON'T FUCKING DO THIS TO ME. YOU.....YOU CAN'T DO THIS. DON'T FUCKING LEAVE ME LIKE THIS. WHY DO ALL MY FAVORITE CHARACTERS DIE. I AM A GOOD FUCKING PERSON. I DON'T NEED THIS SHIT IN MY LIFE. I'M....I DON'T EVEN KNOW. I'M ACTUALLY FUCKING CRY ING THIS IS NOT FUCKING OKAY.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKAHSJDNALHFLWKXBDKSKALZMDBDPAJSWODJXKCNSLNZBDSLSKALNABDLANXOSDJOXCJ
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
DON'T LET THIS....WHAT, CHANGE YOU?
TOO FUCKING LATE, JOSS. I LET YOU IN. I LET YOU WORM YOUR WAY INTO MY COLD, ICY HEART. DON'T FUCKING LEAVE ME LIKE THIS, GET BACK HERE RIGHT NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
TOO FUCKING LATE, JOSS. I LET YOU IN. I LET YOU WORM YOUR WAY INTO MY COLD, ICY HEART. DON'T FUCKING LEAVE ME LIKE THIS, GET BACK HERE RIGHT NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
As soon as you watch the next episode, trust me, the show knows exactly how you feel and delivers.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
I'M STRAIGHT UP A MINUTE IN AND I CAN'T EVEN WATCH IT BECAUSE I'M CRYING
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
WHAT WRECKING ME THE MOST IS THE FACT THAT SHAW, WHO'S USUALLY EMOTIONLESS, IS BEATING UP PEOPLE IN A FIT OF GRIEF FILLED RAGE
I'M NEVER WATCHING TV AGAIN
I'M NEVER WATCHING TV AGAIN
- Status