Have you ever had to study for a final? That's crunch. Have you ever had to take time outside of normal work hours to learn something new? One could argue that is crunch. This no crunch mentality makes people weak and people are free to choose what company they work for.That's dumb mentality.
It's not because crunch has been tolerated and enforced that we should accept it.
With that mindset, slavery would still be legalized...
Just stop.... you are correlating working over time to beating your wife.... How did you get your brain so smooth?And all of those can be handled with better planning up front. And when even after all of that you can't meet the deadlines you've set perhaps beating the employees isn't the only option on the table? Just perhaps?
And yeah beating your wife now and then is fine as long as you bought her a nice house.
Jesus Christ dude, what are you even going on about? Lmao.No wonder we have Trump in office or people thinking Covid19 is not real when I see some of the comments in this thread...
Crunch is NOT acceptable in any circumstance. Crunch is the result or mismanagement or lack or resources, or both. So no way we give crunch a pass. Never.
That double standard to justify crunch when it's a beloved developer like CDPR or Naughty dog doing is despicable.
"Endure in the effort, comrades!"
Man, nice to see corporate is the same everywhere in the world.
Exactly! It has! At least in the AAA industry. At my first industry gig I worked with some awesome and talented folks from studios like 3D Realms, Raven, id, Activision, Acclaim, etc. They all told me stories about crunches they experienced when I was still in middle and high school. Some worse than others.This is just a lose lose situation for CDPR. Either they crunch and the losers like Schreier try to burn them at the stake or they don’t crunch and delay the game again upsetting gamers. I feel like crunch has always been a big part of game development and if you can’t handle it, find a new job. No one is forcing you to be there and work in the industry
Good on her! I don't blame her. I mean, she's essentially getting toxic messages as a result of his retarded ass article.lmao, she is killing him
Oh, the Evil Corporations (TM)!
Oh hey, I see you don't work in corporate and completely missed the point.
But good on you for typing that up, champ.
How do you know I don't work "In corporate" and how is that of any relevance?
What is the point I missed?
And the hits keep coming, this is delicious.
This thread would be the same, but reflecting different positions, if CDPR delayed the game again.This is just a lose lose situation for CDPR. Either they crunch and the losers like Schreier try to burn them at the stake or they don’t crunch and delay the game again upsetting gamers. I feel like crunch has always been a big part of game development and if you can’t handle it, find a new job. No one is forcing you to be there and work in the industry
My comment was about the corporate environment. Yes, perhaps it is relevant that you know something about the subject. Having worked in there? Could help!
Corporate speak. The way that letter is laid out, the Hallmark card as designed by committee. The sincerity without solutions. The unmissed opportunity to market a product.
Saw it earlier this year with retrenchments. I swear there's an app out there to generate those things.
And all of that was in the post of yours I replied to?
Fascinating.
<paragraphs killed my parents>
No, no. Not playing that game.
Not reading that wall you felt the need to write just because you didn't get the original post.
"Endure in the effort, comrades!"
Man, nice to see corporate is the same everywhere in the world.
You could have just wrote "Oh. I don't work in that environment so I don't get what you're trying to say". There. Short and sweet. You're welcome.
And what kind of pompous tool writes "Fascinating." unironically.
Stop pretending you wrote a one-line manifesto against corporate speak.
Totally. The mascot of Resetera strikes again.Schreier being a tool as always. Jumping the gun, with his bias axe to grind. Wannabe activist with a wasted degree, like all Kotaku people lol.
So that's what you got out of what I wrote?
Fascinating.
Don't you have something to contribute to the thread other than your gloated-about world-class expert detection of fellow corporate slaves?
Still going, eh?
You're going to have to stop being sore about what I posted at some point, but congratulations on getting back on topic.
<insert SchReeeeier tweet here>
Boy, is Jason ever a dumbass! (I thought Kotaku closed down, to be honest?)
Your aren't this stupid, so stop acting like you are.And all of those can be handled with better planning up front. And when even after all of that you can't meet the deadlines you've set perhaps beating the employees isn't the only option on the table? Just perhaps?
And yeah beating your wife now and then is fine as long as you bought her a nice house.
So they banned you, for probably legit reasons considering how you act in this thread and many other CDPR threads, and since then we've had to put up with the fallout?Yes, they perma-banned me because I was on their forum saying that the load times were atrocious. This was over a decade ago.
Since then I’ve watched this company put spin after spin on their own shady tactics. I was seriously surprised that so many gamers were ‘caught out’ by The Witcher 3 downgrade fiasco. I saw that one coming ten miles away.
That Valve-handbook worming it's way from creative to actual implementation work.Reset is a shit show on this topic.
Like there are legit issues specifically in the entertainment industry in it's exploitive nature and under paid employee's. But acting that even with a solid management team, great work flow, great pay, and great life/work balance, you will not have some sort of crunch even if it's short term is super naïve at best.
[...]
Your aren't this stupid, so stop acting like you are.
"Better planning" doesn't mean anything in software. You can't plan for every bug and every delay. You can't perfectly plan out the development of every feature or milestone in a project.
You are asking for the impossible.
That Valve-handbook worming it's way from creative to actual implementation work.
So they banned you, for probably legit reasons considering how you act in this thread and many other CDPR threads, and since then we've had to put up with the fallout?
Get over it dude
I work with custom scripts, graphic packages and run multiple systems that all run various tweaked software custom to our station. When we do upgrades to some of these systems we've had total meltdowns that literally took us off air, aka we lost a shit ton of money that day.
We had the team who were already working on a new build work overnight and throughout the week to get a new build to us that fixed the issue we had. And the build wasn't suppose to go even out to beta for another 2 months.
What is this based off of? A six week crunch?Not the whole industry is a bad of dicks. But a lot of the big players CD Prj Red included have issues in how they pay, treat and run their business.
Get over it. Witcher 1 came out over a decade ago. I don't care if they banned people on their boards. For all I know, you guys acted like trolls and got the axe.Actually, they banned every single person who was critical of The Witcher’s release, which was quite frankly atrocious. We had a nice community going at their forum for years before the game’s release, and when we were critical of the ‘final build’ CDPR, instead of taking that criticism and doing something with it, just banned everyone.
Also, they HAVE acted shady since then - don’t tell me how I should or shouldn’t react to that. You clearly think CDPR is the gamer-friendly developer they’ve portrayed themselves as. I don’t.
Actually, they banned every single person who was critical of The Witcher’s release, which was quite frankly atrocious. We had a nice community going at their forum for years before the game’s release, and when we were critical of the ‘final build’ CDPR, instead of taking that criticism and doing something with it, just banned everyone.
(...)
Crunch happens in certain circumstances, but mandatory crunch is a shit environment.
Crunch culture should not be a thing, GAmes and Entertainment are the big outliers where this has become part of the culture and is the root to the problem.
But the issue is the companies owned by stock holders.
Hope there is either some form of unionizing or better deals being made for salaried workers.
But again this is a company by company basis. I have friends who worked for large game publishers and had a great experience. But their role was something that was specific position. Others literally worked at one for 6 months and literally changed careers.
Not the whole industry is a bad of dicks. But a lot of the big players CD Prj Red included have issues in how they pay, treat and run their business.
Friends of mine have heard nothing but horror stories from that place.
That Valve-handbook worming it's way from creative to actual implementation work.
Actually, they banned every single person who was critical of The Witcher’s release, which was quite frankly atrocious. We had a nice community going at their forum for years before the game’s release, and when we were critical of the ‘final build’ CDPR, instead of taking that criticism and doing something with it, just banned everyone.
Also, they HAVE acted shady since then - don’t tell me how I should or shouldn’t react to that. You clearly think CDPR is the gamer-friendly developer they’ve portrayed themselves as. I don’t.
I agree with the above and can attest to it.
However, this is absolutely irrelevant to the whole Crunch topic.
You're sure you don't want to caveat that remark?
Why?
Are you the poster that uses Shouldn't with Crunch and finally doesn't leave it at that?
CDPR is what it is today because it's gone public.
Personally, I hope for world peace and creamier soft-serves.
Indeed. The best is for misfits to find something else, including starting their own studio where all these evil practices will magically evaporate, they'll cut a profit and the AAA ambitious games are decent.
Detail the ways in which CDPR behaves poorly, regarding wages, culture and management.
What's the rotation rate over there?
Would like to put a figure to your claim.
It's probably not all glory, but what I hear from people starting out in the industry, nothing is. You set goals to achieve them and have to set different goals once you are able to admit that they are far out.I will play devils advocate that CD PRJ was not the same company they are now. They were very scrappy, and were doing porting jobs up till the development of the witcher. And I heard that not many people were being paid while making that game. Which is the case when you are starting out working on something big, with very little money from the parent company. WHich was atari at the time. Once they made a deal with WB for Witcher 2 on xbox 360 they got a much larger influx of cash that they were able to pay people. After witcher 3 people were getting paid, but issue still stem over there, especially for people in lower positions.
I will play devils advocate that CD PRJ was not the same company they are now. They were very scrappy, and were doing porting jobs up till the development of the witcher. And I heard that not many people were being paid while making that game. Which is the case when you are starting out working on something big, with very little money from the parent company. WHich was atari at the time. Once they made a deal with WB for Witcher 2 on xbox 360 they got a much larger influx of cash that they were able to pay people. After witcher 3 people were getting paid, but issue still stem over there, especially for people in lower positions.
I take it you dont work in this industry?
Or have close relatives/friends who do?
I have a bunch, and 2 of them literally left the industry all together.
Reasons being mainly crunch/life/work, and pay.
I'm on my fifth Red Bull here, while I slave away the rest of the morning chained to the desk, crunching numbers on Excel.
It's probably not all glory, but what I hear from people starting out in the industry, nothing is. You set goals to achieve them and have to set different goals once you are able to admit that they are far out.
As long as the additional day gets compensated and they have the freedom EU workers tend to have I am willing to accept the 'crunch' (I hate that word) for the time limit they have set. Not that I have a say, just for the sake of this argument.
Save it.
This is just the second time in less than 30 minutes that someone tries to pull the "I work in the industry therefore" card.
If you can't be bothered to check what an Appeal to Authority logical fallacy is, at least explain your stance, so we can talk about it.
For all I care and is relevant to the topic, you're team manager at the top AAA studio of wherever you live. I grant you that. Your friends are all AAA developers. I grant you that. Your relatives are in the industry. I grant you that as well.
Now can you spend nearly as much time explaining your position?
Thank you!
Mandatory is out, as I said: 'for the time limit they have set.'Mandatory crunch is not something you want in a software environment. It sets a precident where it becomes part of the culture and when that happens more is asked for no compensation. And thats what has been happening in the industry for some time now, and is what mainly Jason and few others are trying to shed light on.
There is going to be some form of crunch towards the end or post launch to get things fixed. But that 100% should not be expected and should be compensated for those who choose to crunch.
In a perfect world we want everyone to have a great work/life ratio with getting paid well for the work they do if they are experienced and worth their salary As long as people are being treated well, compensated, and crunch is something that is optional I think thats the best way.
I mean if they can complete a game with very little to no crunch except at the end to go gold, then thats a great place to be. But not everything comes together like that, not every team is a dream team, no every engine goes smoothly, and game code is super delicate.
Something Jason doesn't touch on.
I crunch almost every week in college to meet deadlines. Please cry for me