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Riftbreaker dev : Next-Gen Features Have to Be Fitted to XSS Memory; It Would Have Been Much Easier with XSX Only
- Thread starter FatKingBallman
- Start date
- Game Dev
John Wick
Member
Those games were made when the PS4 X1 were the base spec. They were similar systems with same amount of ram. Games are now gonna be made with 16gb ram and base spec as PS5 and SX.
John Wick
Member
Maybe some of the games are beyond its 1440p target?
FatKingBallman
Banned
THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
Oh good another "Drinks the kool aide" believer who ignores the fact that all of these games are already limited by ps4, xbox one, and or pc development. Xss is the least of thier concern.
Md Ray
Member
Why drop graphical effects/RT? What happened to MS claims? Wasn't Series S advertised as playing Series X version just at a lower resolution/1440p?
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
It's in the link addy and....
The amount of available memory is a determining factor in a lot of cases when we talk about the size of a game world or about how many things can be happening within it at any given time. The size of the memory that is available in the XSS is the actual determining point for the entire console generation as gameplay features have to be fitted to the lowest spec. From the point of view of a developer it would be much easier if there was a single XSX SKU,
Md Ray
Member
This makes no sense.
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Md Ray
Member
Id Software Devs Express Their Concerns Over the Xbox Series S’ Hardware Specs; Memory “Situation” Not Easy to Compensate (wccftech.com)
So, this coming from talented programmers at id Software are baseless too? Fuck outta here dude.
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kuncol02
Banned
Recomended PC specs should fit into faster part of XSS memory.
The Riftbreaker System Requirements (Minimum)
CPU: i3 2.6Ghz or AMD equivalent
RAM: 4 GB
VIDEO CARD: GeForce GTX 460 or AMD equivalent
DEDICATED VIDEO RAM: 1024 MB
The Riftbreaker Recommended Requirements
CPU: i5 2.6Ghz or AMD equivalent
RAM: 6 GB
VIDEO CARD: GeForce GTX 960 or AMD equivalent
DEDICATED VIDEO RAM: 2048 MB
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
And it gets worse when we think about the 4TF elephant in the room.Id Software Devs Express Their Concerns Over the Xbox Series S’ Hardware Specs; Memory “Situation” Not Easy to Compensate (wccftech.com)
So, this coming from talented programmers at id Software are baseless too? Fuck outta here dude.
Negotiator101
Member
Who's we? The fanboys you mean? I know it's fun on Gaf to poke fun at anything Microsoft but one dev has voiced his opinion on the S, that's definitely not conclusive to how the S will cope going forward. You honestly think Microsoft hasn't extensively tested all in house projects on both consoles? They built the S to run next gen games at lower resolution and without certain bells and whistles, if it couldn't do that they either would have bumped up the specs or scrapped the idea.
You people need to wake up and smell the coffee. Microsoft are not going to spend billions on R@D while talking to first and third party developers on a console that will hold back next gen games lol.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
It is quite clearly put...
GHG
Member
Two award winning AAA game engine programmers from now Xbox 1st party studio Id Software agree.
The XSS RAM is a clear issue and bottleneck. And these guys code AAA multiplats for a living. They know their shit.
They both of course sad this before Xbox bought Bethesda lol and deleted the tweets later.
Axel Gneiting - Engine Programmer at Id Software (Doom, Doom Eternal)
Billy Khan - Lead Engine Programmer at Id Software (Doom, Doom Eternal)
Id Software Devs Express Their Concerns Over the Xbox Series S’ Hardware Specs; Memory “Situation” Not Easy to Compensate
Several devs at id Software have expressed their concerns over the specs of Microsoft’s Xbox Series S, more specifically, its memory.wccftech.com
Don't lump me in with that lot man, I was being sarcastic.
YeulEmeralda
Member
Maybe I'm an idiot but games have minimum system requirements for a reason no? Optimization only takes you so far.
Mahadev
Member
One of the very few advantages consoles have over PC gaming is that devs develop for a single hardware so they optimize it far better than PCs. Now they can't even have that with Xbox so it makes sense to complain.
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longdi
Banned
Id Software Devs Express Their Concerns Over the Xbox Series S’ Hardware Specs; Memory “Situation” Not Easy to Compensate (wccftech.com)
So, this coming from talented programmers at id Software are baseless too? Fuck outta here dude.
he have not developed for SS when he made that post.
just drop RT BVH then.
We all want much things, but consoles are consoles, do you want to pay $599 ?
The Hamburglar
Banned
Just drop ray tracing. Problem solved apparently
Negotiator101
Member
Buddy you have no idea what you're talking about do you? Neither do I for that matter, but it makes no sense for Microsoft to make a console that holds back development on its other console.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
$399 > $599
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I am not sure avoiding you hold XSX back is a priority for them as much as getting their own iterative PC like closed box ecosystem.
DarkMage619
$MSFT
How is it not a generational improvement? Do you think the XSS isn't as powerful as the X1 or PS4? Of course MS is interested in making money but again only MS is interested in selling a console at a price a mass market could more easily afford. If devs need help I'm certain MS would assist in making games work for the XSS. There has been no evidence that the XSS cannot play games as well as the PS5 and XSX outside of graphical effects and resolution.Phil as a modern Che Guevara fighting against the elite... down with the gaming elite, poor people that could not afford $399 have a super easy time spending $299 an feeding their families the rest of the month with $100 (minus GamePass Ultimate).
You know it full well it would have been a better offer that lasted a lot longer for users and made developers life easier (thus better games for everyone) if there had been a digital only 0.5-1 TB of SSD XSX at $349-399 but gotta keep circling the wagons and protect XSS from criticism.
All of that just to toss aside any concern about generational improvements or it being a clear move to push to be closer and closer to an Apple style iterative HW release of a new platform every few years with relatively small jumps across each (another company doing it to appeal to poor people unable to afford its products).
What usually takes up the most RAM space when running a game on a console? Graphical data or physics and AI?
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longdi
Banned
yeah i hope SS will use whatever tflops it have on amd ai image enchancement. there is no need for RT, which should cut ram load a lot
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Md Ray
Member
Why did you ignore this?
longdi
Banned
phil needed to hit the $299 mark for mass market uptake. It is a brave new frontier together with gp. if it works out, more people can enjoy next gen gaming. something about blurring the hardware generations as software takes over.
and besides the $399 ps5 seems suspicious with stock situation. next week is sony earnings, let's see how they fare last quarter
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
More straw-men. It is an improvement, but meant not to leave Xbox One and One X especially behind too much. It is a different focus console for a company that clearly seems to position itself for Apple like HW releases: XSS seems to have been built to be replaced with another model in a few years. Then again, like the PS3 audience accepted loss of BC for a cheaper PS3 enabling Ryan’s lukewarm approach to it, the Xbox audience has accepted MS’s approach of selling you a new box to solve the problems the old box had... MS was going to go to devs and help them optimise for the ESRAM and close the gap... and then went into making a faster (higher clocked) Xbox One S and then the Xbox One X. I think the plan is, like Phil said actually (he said not to expect a yearly iteration like GPU’s [... for now IMHO]), to just release more powerful refreshes every few years with devs updating their minimum HW requirements based on the HW user base distribution at the time and few games (with the odd number of games pushing the new
Being more powerful helps, but it requires more and more power differential to make for a visible generational change (memory is part of this equation too).
The generation has barely started and we are seeing resolution dropping quite a bit and effects (in cases RT too) and sometimes framerate too...
Again, you know full well, full well, that a digital only $349-399 XSX with 0.5-1 TB of SSD would have been a far far better choice than the current XSS and not dissimilar in terms of affordability. Cannot admit it because that would imply goof against the party line? If not that why?
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Suspicious? Oh come on
, way to go with the daily PS5 F.U.D.Not seeing the $299 XSS being sold in massive volumes or being even that hot and requested of a product, not sure it is worth it for the market... it is worth it for Phil because he wants to have iPhone like iterative releases and cross generation software forever... like a walled garden closed PC ecosystem: now he has a set of active HW which creates a blur between Xbox One S, Xbox One X, XSS, XSX... and you will see them likely releasing refreshes every few years (if the strategy does not tank) and dropping one or two at the lower end each time.
This IMHO is not the strategy the helps deliver or give the opportunity for competition to produce breakthroughs or user focused innovation.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Well not anymore if you are familiar with GDK, which also includes standard tools tools for the DirectX12Ultimate games. That was my point. Surely we know that it would be easier just having XSX, but still sofar it looks like it's just a config tweak.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Then they would have to drop the entire Xbox family as well.
Its mandated to devs that a game that boots on XSX should boot on XSS.
If the XSS version runs at 10fps so be it, but the game should boot, so no third party is going to drop the XSS lest they dont want their game on the Xbox platform at all.
Mahadev
Member
No matter how many tools companies make they'll never be able to compete with having just one hardware version. Never.
Lol at using the word "optimalise" while patronising game developers.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Isn't true tho?
Compete in what exactly? PCs nowadas are always more powerful than consoles. One example is that 16xAF is gold standard in PC games for 20 years and it's still not utilised across the board on consoles. So... Like if you compare same hardware, than sure, if you compare the price of the devices, than sure. But not sure what you exactly meant.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Lower clockspeed and reduced amount of shared resources could indeed impact geometry processing sure. You could drop resolution some more and use Mesh Shaders to process primitives in software and try to reduce that burden but yes it hurts still.
The Hamburglar
Banned
I’m quoting the guy who has no clue, by simply saying dropping RT solved everything.
yeah cos hardware manufacturers don’t make mistakes...
Ps3
Xbox one x
DarkMage619
$MSFT
How do you know how much the XSX BOM is vs the XSS? And what is this party line nonsense? How is a $399 price of a PS5 better than a $299 price of a XSS when you can't afford $399? Just because you have the disposable income doesn't mean everyone does. Are you following the company line from Sony PS3 days about "working harder" to afford one?
The most important thing to this gen was an improvement in the CPU capability of the console from last gen. Can you prove that the XSS fails to deliver in that aspect? The developer even stated "The best thing about the current architecture is that the CPU power on both Xbox models is practically the same. Scaling graphical effects is a lot easier than scaling gameplay." Yet everyone here is harping on how gameplay is effected.
Talk to MS get assistance in fitting your games into memory. Maybe use velocity architecture, maybe use VRS. There available features on the XSS that will make it easier to develop in the confines of the device. Another quote "From the point of view of a developer it would be much easier if there was a single XSX SKU, but given the circumstances I think that Microsoft has made good choices in how to create a much cheaper console, that can still run next-generation games." MS goal was to get more consoles in more people's hands not appealing to the tech enthusiast who wants cutting edge graphics and effects. There are always products that appeal to high end users not so much on the lower end. It's on MS to ensure their philosophy works but they are right to follow it.
Mahadev
Member
Wasn't that my original point? PCs are more powerful than consoles, it's one of the many advantages so consoles losing one of the few things they have going for them is a cause for concern and given that in a couple of years they will be vastly outmatched this problem will become worse. XSS is basically last gen hardware with new next gen features, it'll be a fucking terrible hindrance sooner than later.
Kenpachii
Member
imagine thinking that 16gb of shared ram is plenty, and lets not even talk about the GPU that targets 4k. It's bottleneck city everywhere. He wants more performance build it for PC's. Otherwise fall in line and strip your game to run on those potato's.
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Md Ray
Member
This thread is about XSS and its limited RAM holding back games. Why mention PS5 specifically and leave out XSX then?
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Why do I need to worry, MS has an infinite war chest, right?
sure, $299 vs $399 is where you go from being able to put food on your table or not (as if $299 were peanuts). How about something worse than XSS for even less then, why stop there? I do not believe your argument is genuine, sorry. I just do not.You have not given me or anyone a good reason why a 0.5 TB digital only XSX at $349 would have not been possible since XSX design is so smart and cost efficient unlike the wasteful PS5 which Sony can afford to sell at $399 just by taking the Blu-Ray drive off. Such an Xbox would be a much much better and healthier proposition and would simplify devs’ life (but sure, more difficult to sell those people another affordable $299 XSSv2 in 2022 or something
).Because you choose not to think about RAM limitations impeding design, or do not see games being able to build gameplay enhancing features with the power available on the GPU (one could have a 1440p or less game with DRS that uses the rest of the GPU performance in the XSX for gameplay enhancing calculations... what do you do on the XSS?) does not means others should. Choice is often let the XSS underperform or design the game around the XSX and brute force things that easily scale upwards.
CPU and SSD speed are two of the biggest changes this generation yes, and mostly XSS delivers there (downclock on the CPU side will still affect you if you try to get every bit of juice out of the XSX as you can...), but the entire system design is not just those components alone: RAM and the GPU (which is getting to be a more and more central and general processing unit as time goes on).
Essentially “XSS could have been worse, MS did not do a horrible job at it” seems like rave reviews for a public interview
.Anyways it is still work added onto developers’ already busy backlog which punishes you more the more ambitious your title is... certainly not the promise of exactly the same experience as the XSX at 1440p as people were pushing it back then (even at 1080p it is a stretch if you want RT too).Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Kenpachii
Member
I don't need more then 1 box to make a point. I picked the PS5 as result.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Yes in some cases it might well be, in some others XSX might... and? Making the situation worse for devs is now preferable because reasons? Trying to say that XSS is a lot closer to XSX than PS5 where it matters?
Md Ray
Member
Do we have devs complaining about 16GB of RAM on PS5?
Also, despite a 2x upgrade - current-gen XSX/PS5 are actually more than doubling the available RAM for games. 5 GB available to games -> 13.5 GB. 2.7x increase. Whereas on the XSS side, the upgrade is just a little over 50% over base PS4/XB1.
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MasterCornholio
Member
If they only had PC to develop for?
I'm guessing they could choose the minimum spec requirements themselves. I think with Xbox you have to develop for both the XSS and XSX if I'm not wrong.
Kenpachii
Member
Nobody is saying its preferable to make things more worse. The thing is with consoles u build around limitations. And sometimes they are aggressive in some parts. U dont'want to do that release it for PC and build the game u want. But even there u gotta take into account lower end users if you actually want sales but still u got no limitations on there really if you care about it.
Him bitching that a budget box for 300 buck isn't as performent as a more expensive console is just him being a idiot.
