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[BadBurger]

History of pandemics along with death tolls

 

[Clear]

ivermectin is called "horse paste" to disparage people who are fearful enough of the virus and so mistrusting of "government" that they are refusing to take a highly effecatious miracle drug in exchange for something that is probably bunk, see: plaquenil

it's gotten to the point where doctors are so sick of people telling them what they want, essentially telling them how to do their job, and then picking and choosing what they recommend, and then being the first first to complain try to hold you financially liable. So sick of it in fact that they are no longer willing to give your dumb ass ivermectin when initially they were prescribing it liberally to anyone not already on a ventilator. The drug is not fda approved for covid, so they don't have to give you shit. There was an incident near me recently where a hospital doctor would not resume an order for ivermectin that the patient had been given by their primary doctor.. the patient eventually died and the family is now sueing. I'll let you figure out if it was the lack of ivermectin or not being vaccinated that killed him.

personally i think it's too bad because the drug is largely harmless, and there's a still a chance it could help, even if it's just a placebo for those that think it's a cure, so why not give it to people that want it? it's a shame it got to this point, but here we are, and I totally get it /rant

I'd agree with you but so much of the hysteria about Ivermectin seemed to be emanating from the media, not doctors. What's more, there's a bizarre fallacy at work here with the suggestion that all doctors, all of medicine speaks with one voice. Getting a second opinion regarding treatment is quite normal after all.

The reality is that when the Pandemic began, noone really knew how to treat it. So if certain doctors found apparent success with treatment regimes of their own formulation, I can understand why they'd want to share their experience with their colleagues and peers. There's nothing sinister or inherently cranky about differing opinions.

What's more big pharma hardly has an unblemished record for honest dealing or infallibility, they are powerful institutions that know how to work media and government to their advantage. So when you see what very much looks like a coordinated media takedown on Joe Rogan after he publicly describes his "kitchen sink" approach to treating his covid infection, I find it hard to dismiss out of hand that there's nothing but "pure science" at work.

I understand the desire to encourage the uptake of vaccination at all costs on public health policy grounds, but honestly I feel that the way it was handled was counter-productive, and probably further entrenched many conspiratorially-minded people in their opposition.

The virus doesn't give a shit about politics, all it wants are warm bodies to infect. So to my mind more effort should have been made in building trust, and less on divisive and othering rhetoric about vaccine skepticism.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

History of pandemics along with death tolls

Given that chart and the recent events (2000s), it looks like SARS at only 770 deaths was the most overhyped fearmongering virus ever. The media made it sound like the next coming of the plague.

 

[12Goblins]

History of pandemics along with death tolls

fascinating picture...can't believe covid has killed 5 million people my god

 

[poppabk]

Oh ya, I forgot about weight gain, which everyone says happens. That's a fact. I've never heard someone or an article say people lost weight. When any of us talk about it (fam or coworkers), everyone is either stayed the same or gained.

And it makes sense as people are sitting around more, holed at home, and snacking more as WFH people can always go to the kitchen and pig out.

You'll never see government tell that bad side effect of being hold up at home due to covid lockdowns. And many companies (like mine) follow office lockdowns based on government issued lockdowns and bad reports of covid cases.

The article you quoted literally says that a decent proportion of people lost more weight than they wanted to.

 

[12Goblins]

Given that chart and the recent events (2000s), it looks like SARS at only 770 deaths was the most overhyped fearmongering virus ever. The media made it sound like the next coming of the plague.

I feel with novel diseases it's always better to assume the worst case scenario

 

[JayK47]

Based on the reaction you would think it was the Black Plague. Early in the pandemic, National Geographic had a great in depth article on pandemics. Even early information predicted that Covid would be one of the smallest pandemics. Reading about old pandemics, like smallpox, gave me a lot of perspective. Smallpox was brutal.

 

[Jsisto]

Sure in the grand scheme of things it’s a small panedemic, but it’s the first major respiratory one in 100 years, and effects people from all walks of life, worldwide. Nobody currently alive has lived through one like this. While definitely overblown at times, I don’t think it’s entirely unreasonable for people to react the way they do.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The article you quoted literally says that a decent proportion of people lost more weight than they wanted to.

I'm talking holistically. Of course out of the billions of people in the world there will be some that lost weight. But the article clearly states there's a lot more weight gainers than losers. I've never seen an article say a giant survey was done and holistically the 1000s of people surveyed said there was a net drop in weight.

 

[poppabk]

I'm talking holistically. Of course out of the billions of people in the world there will be some that lost weight. But the article clearly states there's a lot more weight gainers than losers. I've never seen an article say a giant survey was done and holistically the 1000s of people surveyed said there was a net drop in weight.

"For the 18% of Americans who said they lost more weight than they wanted to, the average amount of weight lost was 26 pounds (median of 12 pounds)."
Half the percentage that gained weight but still a significant number, but even without a pandemic over two years you would likely see that same split. I'm not even sure the numbers are significant relative to what you would see over a normal 2 year period.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Sure in the grand scheme of things it’s a small panedemic, but it’s the first major respiratory one in 100 years, and effects people from all walks of life, worldwide. Nobody currently alive has lived through one like this. While definitely overblown at times, I don’t think it’s entirely unreasonable for people to react the way they do.

IMO, it's overblown.

The biggest risk (which seemed supported even in the early surveys of death results) was old people in that 60+ range. And anyone holed up in nursing homes seemed even more worse off.

As people get younger, the risk decreases exponentially where school age kids barely get affected. And in most countries, young kids didn't get access to shots (like 12 or under). Yet covid still did nothing against that age group despite:

1. None or hardly any vaccines taken
2. Kids all grouped up in class and eating together
3. Kids being dirty in general

Yet, every age group is lumped together as if everyone is the same when life can go on (vaxxed or not) for probably 95%+ of the people (I made up a number). And for that portion of high risk, it's heavily skewed to old people getting the worst of it.

What governments should had done from the get go is advise all the old people to get shots and stay home since they are the most risky group. Yet whether a city is freedom or on covid lockdown, some reason governments dont have the balls to advise age specific strategies where if a city thinks its ok to open things up, that old people should still be on red flag alert. Instead, things open up and all the high risk old people are back at life like normal when they are the ones hit the most.

 

[Jsisto]

IMO, it's overblown.

The biggest risk (which seemed supported even in the early surveys of death results) was old people in that 60+ range. And anyone holed up in nursing homes seemed even more worse off.

As people get younger, the risk decreases exponentially where school age kids barely get affected. And in most countries, young kids didn't get access to shots (like 12 or under). Yet covid still did nothing against that age group despite:

1. None or hardly any vaccines taken
2. Kids all grouped up in class and eating together
3. Kids being dirty in general

Yet, every age group is lumped together as if everyone is the same when life can go on (vaxxed or not) for probably 95%+ of the people (I made up a number). And for that portion of high risk, it's heavily skewed to old people getting the worst of it.

What governments should had done from the get go is advise all the old people to get shots and stay home since they are the most risky group. Yet whether a city is freedom or on covid lockdown, some reason governments dont have the balls to advise age specific strategies where if a city thinks its ok to open things up, that old people should still be on red flag alert. Instead, things open up and all the high risk old people are back at life like normal when they are the ones hit the most.

That's all factually correct....but literally everyone either has someone they care about that is 60 plus....or is 60 plus....so to me it's still logical that people reacted the way they did. I know it's not your intention, but whenever I see people brush off the concern and say it's just old people dying...kinda comes off as insensitive to me. I'm 35 and have never been particularly worried about myself, but you can be damn sure I've been super careful around my 60 plus parents. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I accidentally gave it to them and they got seriously ill or worse.

 

[poppabk]

IMO, it's overblown.

The biggest risk (which seemed supported even in the early surveys of death results) was old people in that 60+ range. And anyone holed up in nursing homes seemed even more worse off.

As people get younger, the risk decreases exponentially where school age kids barely get affected. And in most countries, young kids didn't get access to shots (like 12 or under). Yet covid still did nothing against that age group despite:

1. None or hardly any vaccines taken
2. Kids all grouped up in class and eating together
3. Kids being dirty in general

Yet, every age group is lumped together as if everyone is the same when life can go on (vaxxed or not) for probably 95%+ of the people (I made up a number). And for that portion of high risk, it's heavily skewed to old people getting the worst of it.

What governments should had done from the get go is advise all the old people to get shots and stay home since they are the most risky group. Yet whether a city is freedom or on covid lockdown, some reason governments dont have the balls to advise age specific strategies where if a city thinks its ok to open things up, that old people should still be on red flag alert. Instead, things open up and all the high risk old people are back at life like normal when they are the ones hit the most.

You are talking about roughly 1/3 of the active workforce being told to stay home, not sure how things would be normal for everyone else without a massive part of the workforce. The irony is that people have suggested the same strategy for unvaccinated people and it hasn't been welcomed.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

That's all factually correct....but literally everyone either has someone they care about that is 60 plus....or is 60 plus....so to me it's still logical that people reacted the way they did. I know it's not your intention, but whenever I see people brush off the concern and say it's just old people dying...kinda comes off as insensitive to me. I'm 35 and have never been particularly worried about myself, but you can be damn sure I've been super careful around my 60 plus parents. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I accidentally gave it to them and they got seriously ill or worse.

I agree. Thats why I mentioned the old people should be the ones (city lockdown mode or not) being the ones on perma lock down mode.

It would be different if governments forced vaccines on everyone because at some point when everyone has got the shots the risk decreases a lot for everyone. But if governments dont want to force it, then you get xxx% of the population more susceptible (esp. any old people who wanna be unvaxxed).

So IMO, if governments want to do blanket open-up policies, do it when everyone is forced to get vaxxed. But if there's no vax mandate, then govs should be locking down unvaxxed old people. Everyone seems to be doing fine enough.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

You are talking about roughly 1/3 of the active workforce being told to stay home, not sure how things would be normal for everyone else without a massive part of the workforce. The irony is that people have suggested the same strategy for unvaccinated people and it hasn't been welcomed.

The 60+ labour pool is roughly 12%. I simply took a mid point range because 60 is in between two age brackets.

Labor Force Share, by Age Group, 1998, 2008, 2018, and Projected 2028 : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

www.bls.gov

 

[Jsisto]

Logically that all makes sense, but I could see hyper specific lockdowns being a bit problematic, and we already see our supposed leaders are scared to just tell us the truth for fear of the blowback. We're fat, unhealthy and need to get our asses in shape. What's next, fat people lockdowns?

 

[Lady Redfield]

That's all factually correct....but literally everyone either has someone they care about that is 60 plus....or is 60 plus....so to me it's still logical that people reacted the way they did. I know it's not your intention, but whenever I see people brush off the concern and say it's just old people dying...kinda comes off as insensitive to me. I'm 35 and have never been particularly worried about myself, but you can be damn sure I've been super careful around my 60 plus parents. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I accidentally gave it to them and they got seriously ill or worse.

That's what gets me about this, it really does show how many inconsiderate douchebags live amongst us. I heard a lot of people say that it's an 'old person's disease', like they don't give two shits about their parents, grandparents, or any other older people they know.

I despise having to wear a mask every day for 2 years, but, I do it because I want this shit to be over and I don't want to spread anything to people who may not come out of it alive if they were to get it.

 

[Chittagong]

Another study regarding the traits of the omicron variant:

Omicron’s feeble attack on the lungs could make it less dangerous

Mounting evidence from animal studies suggests that Omicron does not multiply readily in lung tissue, which can be badly damaged in people infected with other variants.

www.nature.com

Although ridiculed, I did bring up both these points a little while ago:

If we look at the symptoms for a clue, Omicron seems to be more an upper respiratory tract virus rather than a pneumonia inducing virus. It multiplies 70x more in the nose and throat, ostensibly causing loads of more mucus.

Young kids have tiny respiratory tracts and are not yet very proficient in clearing them.

That would be my guess.

Omicron’s course of infection could also have implications for children, says Audrey John, a specialist in paediatric infectious disease at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia in Pennsylvania. Young children have relatively small nasal passages, and babies breathe only through their noses. Such factors can make upper respiratory conditions more serious for children than for adults, John says. But she adds that she has not seen data suggesting an uptick in the numbers of young children hospitalized for croup and other conditions that could indicate a severe infection of the upper respiratory tract.

+

I am spending the new year with a prominent virologist. He told me that, like many labs, they have been trying to grow omicron on lung cells and it just doesn’t grow, whereas it grows really well in the nose cells.

The hypothisis is that much like a common cold, Omicron has adapted to strive in 33C, not 37C.

He is reluctant to put out a definitive statement until they can repeat the tests and verify everything, but he said that if this holds, ‘it’s the end of the pandemic - it has mutated to a common cold’.

Happy new year!

Upper airway preferred
Difficulty entering lung cells could help to explain why Omicron does better in the upper airways than in the lungs, says Ravindra Gupta, a virologist at the University of Cambridge, UK, who co-authored one of the TMPRSS2 studies4. This theory could also explain why, by some estimates, Omicron is nearly as transmissible as measles, which is the benchmark for high transmissibility, says Diamond.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

That's what gets me about this, it really does show how many inconsiderate douchebags live amongst us. I heard a lot of people say that it's an 'old person's disease', like they don't give two shits about their parents, grandparents, or any other older people they know.

I despise having to wear a mask every day for 2 years, but, I do it because I want this shit to be over and I don't want to spread anything to people who may not come out of it alive if they were to get it.

That's reasonable.

But how is this going to all end (masks and lockdown policies) when there's no government mandate to get vaxxed?

I dont know how many unvaxxed people there typically are in a country, but let's say for sake of argument 20% of people never want to get vaxxed, which leads to people getting sick and dying.

How is that ever going to change if people arent forced to vax? You'll be wearing a mask forever.

And if my 80 year old parents are vaxxed, and my siblings and I are vaxxed, we all did our part as a family. There's not much else to do unless someone wants to keep living in a bubble on top of masks and vaccines and lock down polices.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/covid-19-vaccination-rates-by-country

 

[Jsisto]

It’s too early to say, because I’m sure the delta and omicron variant numbers are being muddled. But let’s say it turns out the omicron variant IS on par with a bad cold and becomes the new dominant strain. Should we still have vaccine mandates? You could then make the argument that it could mutate into something more deadly, but so could influenza, and we dont have vaccine mandates for that. Where is the line drawn?

 

[Lady Redfield]

That's reasonable.

But how is this going to all end (masks and lockdown policies) when there's no government mandate to get vaxxed?

I dont know how many unvaxxed people there typically are in a country, but let's say for sake of argument 20% of people never want to get vaxxed, which leads to people getting sick and dying.

How is that ever going to change if people arent forced to vax? You'll be wearing a mask forever.

And if my 80 year old parents are vaxxed, and my siblings and I are vaxxed, we all did our part as a family. There's not much else to do unless someone wants to keep living in a bubble on top of masks and vaccines and lock down polices.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/covid-19-vaccination-rates-by-country

Don’t get me wrong, I agree with your statement and I’m fully vaxxed, so, I did my part and I feel happy about it.

The mandate was there for certain things, but, not everything, and then they even flipped that….the government here has no clue what they are doing. One day, certain people must have a shot for work, the next, meh, whatever.

 

[Jsisto]

Don’t get me wrong, I agree with your statement and I’m fully vaxxed, so, I did my part and I feel happy about it.

The mandate was there for certain things, but, not everything, and then they even flipped that….the government here has no clue what they are doing. One day, certain people must have a shot for work, the next, meh, whatever.

It’s an absolute clusterfuck and I don’t blame people at all for not trusting the government. Granted it is a novel virus and a lot of stuff was not known immediately, but both the Trump and Biden admins have been terribly inconsistent on messaging and have basically just been telling us what they think we can handle/what is politically advantageous at the time. People are not as dumb as they think. Yeah, people are generally stupid as fuck, but not as much as they think.

 

[Chittagong]

It’s too early to say, because I’m sure the delta and omicron variant numbers are being muddled. But let’s say it turns out the omicron variant IS on par with a bad cold and becomes the new dominant strain. Should we still have vaccine mandates? You could then make the argument that it could mutate into something more deadly, but so could influenza, and we dont have vaccine mandates for that. Where is the line drawn?

We spoke about this with my virologist friend.

His view was that it is highly unlikely for the virus to mutate back to one that infects lung tissue (= more deadly) as such a mutation offers no benefit to infectiousness, rather it makes the virus less infectious.

He said that generally, when faced with a new 37C (lung) virus, lacking a vaccine, a well understood way to try to tame it is to attempt to grow and multiply it in 33C (throat/nose) until it adapts to a less harmful host environment.

Furthermore, there are other differences in the lung and throat environments which have implications to why Omicron doesn’t multiply in the lungs, but these have not been yet published - they are writing a paper as we speak.

His view was that as soon as all this is confirmed, “the pandemic is over and this has turned into a common cold”.

That *should* mean vaccine mandates, mandatory testing and limits to freedoms are not acceptable any longer. But letting them go will be very political, rather than medical.

 

[Jsisto]

We spoke about this with my virologist friend.

His view was that it is highly unlikely for the virus to mutate back to one that infects lung tissue (= more deadly) as such a mutation offers no benefit to infectiousness, rather it makes the virus less infectious.

He said that generally, when faced with a new 37C virus, lacking a vaccine, a well understood way to try to tame it is to attempt to grow and multiply it in 33C (throat/nose) until it adapts to a less harmful host environment.

Furthermore, there are other differences in the lung and throat environments which have implications to why Omicron doesn’t multiply in the lungs, but these have not been yet published - they are writing a paper as we speak.

His view was that as soon as all this is confirmed, “the pandemic is over and this has turned into a common cold”.

That *should* mean vaccine mandates, mandatory testing and limits to freedoms are not acceptable any longer. But letting them go will be very political, rather than medical.

Fascinating stuff, thanks for sharing.

On top of the political implications, the mainstream media will DEFINATELY not drop the fearmongering readily. With Trump
gone, COVID coverage has been their saving grace, as sad as that is…

 

[TheFarter]

No, they just want no vaccine passes and no restrictions so they can go on with their lives and put the lives of others in danger. That kid you brush off against in the supermarket might have reduced immunity and contract severe case of Covid as a result. But hey, muh rights, correct?

"Muh rights" "muh freedoms!"

Why do you talk like that? Writes out just like an Era poster would type. Haven't seen anyone in this thread say something like that.

And guess what? Little Johnny that I brush up against that has reduced immunity has to live his life like he did before covid. He's the one when out, has to be more careful. Like they always have been and always will be. I'm sorry but that's reality. Those people are already taking precautions.

So gross. "muh fredums!" And you're not even from US i don't believe. Lol. It's so era cringey type of thing to write. Next is YAAASSS KWEEEN!!

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Well, it gets to a point I think just about everyone has had it.

Every person in some form (unless you live in a city that had no covid policies from the beginning) has had to endure work issues, masks, businesses closed down, travel closed down or require tests, cant see friends or family etc....

I dont know about you guys, but I'm in my 40s, vaxxed, and have had enough. And I'm not even paranoid. I'm just irritated and bored. But who knows, maybe my neighbours are mentally unstable going nuts working at home with kids running around doing online classes. Must be a pain in the ass. I'm not even sure what some of them did when some people I know had to go to the office and daycare centres were closed. I dont know, they must had got friends or grandparents to babysit.

I'll keep plowing away WFH and following store guidelines, but I'm willing to just let it loose and live life like before and task my own risk at being an unlucky vaxxed guy still dying from covid.

Now if I was 62, unvaxxed and hanging out at the mall shopping then ya I'd be shitting bricks.

As I said before, if gov really wants great public health:

1. Mandate vax
2. Cant do that? Then focus on the highest risk group (old people) and get them to isolate (esp. unvaxxed old people) while the rest of the country keeps humming along
3. Cant do that? Then put everything on big lockdown
4. Cant do that? You cant have it all ways. You'll never get covid cases rock bottom if there's tons of unvaxxed people and the highest risk group (old people) are still open to do what they want like low risk 15 year olds. Doesnt even make sense. Kids in grade school that barely get affected have more restrictions than 65 year olds who are the age bracket dropping like flies

By the looks of it, it seems all cities do opening things up or locking things down is strictly going by the daily or weekly covid counter, where they pray the stars will align one day with record low covid cases and it sticks.

 

[Lady Redfield]

We spoke about this with my virologist friend.

His view was that it is highly unlikely for the virus to mutate back to one that infects lung tissue (= more deadly) as such a mutation offers no benefit to infectiousness, rather it makes the virus less infectious.

He said that generally, when faced with a new 37C (lung) virus, lacking a vaccine, a well understood way to try to tame it is to attempt to grow and multiply it in 33C (throat/nose) until it adapts to a less harmful host environment.

Furthermore, there are other differences in the lung and throat environments which have implications to why Omicron doesn’t multiply in the lungs, but these have not been yet published - they are writing a paper as we speak.

His view was that as soon as all this is confirmed, “the pandemic is over and this has turned into a common cold”.

That *should* mean vaccine mandates, mandatory testing and limits to freedoms are not acceptable any longer. But letting them go will be very political, rather than medical.

This is awesome, seems like a promising future is near.

I know a few who have recently caught covid and common cold was their exact words.

I’m not sure if I had it, but, about 2 weeks ago, I had a scratchy throat and my body ached. At times, I felt a bit flushed, but, wasn’t sure if it was just me or the heat in here hitting a little more. It lasted 2 days and was gone. If that was it, it was a bit irritating, but, overall….that’s it? I’m grateful it was such a low level of suffering.

 

[dave_d]

Given that chart and the recent events (2000s), it looks like SARS at only 770 deaths was the most overhyped fearmongering virus ever. The media made it sound like the next coming of the plague.

From what I know what ended up happening is Italian doctor, Carlo Urbani, sounded the alarm on SARS very early on before it could spread significantly or before China could cover it up. Pretty much as 12Goblin implies seems like this stuff is much easier to take care of if you can get to it early. (Since once it spread it's such a bitch to shut down, if it's even possible.)

 

[sinnergy]

I know a few who have recently caught covid and common cold was their exact words.

I’m not sure if I had it, but, about 2 weeks ago, I had a scratchy throat and my body ached. At times, I felt a bit flushed, but, wasn’t sure if it was just me or the heat in here hitting a little more. It lasted 2 days and was gone. If that was it, it was a bit irritating, but, overall….that’s it? I’m grateful it was such a low level of suffering.

if you didn’t test , you don’t know ..

I did get colds the past 2 years, no COVID, because I test .

 

[ntropy]

"lockdowns protected the laptop class"

 

[FireFly]

The virus doesn't give a shit about politics, all it wants are warm bodies to infect. So to my mind more effort should have been made in building trust, and less on divisive and othering rhetoric about vaccine skepticism.

In the UK, the government is Conservative and AFAIK all the messaging has been purely about the benefits of vaccination. Most of the resistance comes from the right wing media such as The Telegraph and the "Brexit" contingent of MPs. Though this is not strictly speaking anti-vax. In the US, Trump made an early effort to make controlling COVID a political issue, so the Republicans were never fully on side.

The big problem is that anti-vax sentiment drives attention and clicks on social media, so the algorithms are always going to funnel people towards it.

 

[Jsisto]

Got my results and I tested positive! I was double vaxed in April, am 35, and in good health. I was already 90 percent better when I got the test, and all I can say is....that was probably the mildest cold I can remember having. Obviously everyone's experience will differ, but it's hard for me not to view this as a positive sign of where the pandemic is heading. I work in retail and probably picked it up from my store. We've had a ton of people get it there recently, and from what I know it's pretty much been the same story for everyone, with a small number having more flu like symptoms...perhaps Delta in that case.

 

[FunkMiller]

And guess what? Little Johnny that I brush up against that has reduced immunity has to live his life like he did before covid. He's the one when out, has to be more careful. Like they always have been and always will be. I'm sorry but that's reality. Those people are already taking precautions.

The absolute distillation of the mindless, vacuous, selfish, entitled attitude of the average anti-vaxxer. Congratulations!

”But they’ve got problems anyway! Why do I have to do anything to make their lives better?!”

So very, very gross.

 

[Clear]

In the UK, the government is Conservative and AFAIK all the messaging has been purely about the benefits of vaccination. Most of the resistance comes from the right wing media such as The Telegraph and the "Brexit" contingent of MPs. Though this is not strictly speaking anti-vax. In the US, Trump made an early effort to make controlling COVID a political issue, so the Republicans were never fully on side.

The big problem is that anti-vax sentiment drives attention and clicks on social media, so the algorithms are always going to funnel people towards it.

To be fair the leader of the UK's actual anti-vax lunatic fringe is Corbyn's nutball brother Piers, pressure from the centre to right-wing is more about civil liberty issues like the stringency of lock-downs and mandates or economic questions regarding keeping post-Brexit Britain open for business and not allowing the NHS to collapse under the weight of cases.

I suspect a lot of vaccine hesistancy over here was defused due to the initial mass deployment being AZ, and when problems came to light about the blood-clotting adverse reaction*, the reaction was pretty swift in terms of replacing it with Pfizer/Moderna in the potentially affected cohorts.


*Which lets not forget seems likely to be primarily a product of misadministration of the vaccine.

 

[caffeware]

Let's say you get 100% of the USA vaxxed, how are you going to control what the rest of the world does?
The Omicron Variant originated in South Africa, didn't it; not in New York or Florida.
So the idea that vaccinating everyone around you will stop the pandemic is not sound.

 

[gamescoltsfan]

And she said, “yeah I brought you flowers”

 

[QSD]

I'd agree with you but so much of the hysteria about Ivermectin seemed to be emanating from the media, not doctors. What's more, there's a bizarre fallacy at work here with the suggestion that all doctors, all of medicine speaks with one voice. Getting a second opinion regarding treatment is quite normal after all.

The reality is that when the Pandemic began, noone really knew how to treat it. So if certain doctors found apparent success with treatment regimes of their own formulation, I can understand why they'd want to share their experience with their colleagues and peers. There's nothing sinister or inherently cranky about differing opinions.

What's more big pharma hardly has an unblemished record for honest dealing or infallibility, they are powerful institutions that know how to work media and government to their advantage. So when you see what very much looks like a coordinated media takedown on Joe Rogan after he publicly describes his "kitchen sink" approach to treating his covid infection, I find it hard to dismiss out of hand that there's nothing but "pure science" at work.

I understand the desire to encourage the uptake of vaccination at all costs on public health policy grounds, but honestly I feel that the way it was handled was counter-productive, and probably further entrenched many conspiratorially-minded people in their opposition.

The virus doesn't give a shit about politics, all it wants are warm bodies to infect. So to my mind more effort should have been made in building trust, and less on divisive and othering rhetoric about vaccine skepticism.

This... I wonder how much longer it will take for people of average or better intelligence to realize that if they want others to cooperate with something, trash talking and insulting them will not make that any more likely. In fact the opposite is true, it just further entrenches people and breaks down communication, inevitably leading to more deaths. It's just so hard for some people (even Macron, now) to eat their ego's and find a way to communicate that is actually effective. It's shocking to me how immature people are in this regard.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Let's say you get 100% of the USA vaxxed, how are you going to control what the rest of the world does?
The Omicron Variant originated in South Africa, didn't it; not in New York or Florida.
So the idea that vaccinating everyone around you will stop the pandemic is not sound.

Even if the entire world was vaxxed and booster shotted, people can still get sick and die from it. It's really just like the annual flu bug that makes millions sick every year and 1000s die, but more powerful. Covid doesn't seem like Polio where someone invents a vax and it's so effective if makes it come to a halt globally for 50 years.

Would the world then lay down the masks and max capacity policies? Or will it be a forever thing where govs will only get back to normal if it's eradicated like polio? Who knows.

 

[Kilau]

Let's say you get 100% of the USA vaxxed, how are you going to control what the rest of the world does?
The Omicron Variant originated in South Africa, didn't it; not in New York or Florida.
So the idea that vaccinating everyone around you will stop the pandemic is not sound.

Interesting that these variants aren't coming from the US. Since we have most cases you would think we would have the most chance of variations breaking out.

 

[Chittagong]

I‘ve been trying to find that “Trying to avoid Omicron“ gif with SMB1 rotating fire bars. Anyone got it at hand?

 

[poppabk]

[

Even if the entire world was vaxxed and booster shotted, people can still get sick and die from it. It's really just like the annual flu bug that makes millions sick every year and 1000s die, but more powerful. Covid doesn't seem like Polio where someone invents a vax and it's so effective if makes it come to a halt globally for 50 years.

Would the world then lay down the masks and max capacity policies? Or will it be a forever thing where govs will only get back to normal if it's eradicated like polio? Who knows.

I think most of us live in places where restrictions have ebbed and flowed with the virus impact. My life has been pretty much normal since the vaccines became available, I mask at work but that is pretty much it. I go on vacations, go to the movies, go to packed restaurants, went to a Christmas parade with my family l, visit packed tourist traps, my kids go to school and extracurriculars etc etc.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I think most of us live in places where restrictions have ebbed and flowed with the virus impact. My life has been pretty much normal since the vaccines became available, I mask at work but that is pretty much it. I go on vacations, go to the movies, go to packed restaurants, went to a Christmas parade with my family l, visit packed tourist traps, my kids go to school and extracurriculars etc etc.

Ontario has been a back and forth game of open, closed, limited capacity. We just got hit with "no dine in allowed and gyms closed" kind of thing again. Schools reopening delayed last minute for a two week stall when originally kids were to be back in class yesterday.

 

[SpiceRacz]

Even if the entire world was vaxxed and booster shotted, people can still get sick and die from it. It's really just like the annual flu bug that makes millions sick every year and 1000s die, but more powerful. Covid doesn't seem like Polio where someone invents a vax and it's so effective if makes it come to a halt globally for 50 years.

Would the world then lay down the masks and max capacity policies? Or will it be a forever thing where govs will only get back to normal if it's eradicated like polio? Who knows.

Depends on where you live. Where I'm at, everything has been back to normal for over a year. Movie theaters, music venues, sports, gyms, restaurants etc. have all been open for full capacity. You wouldn't know we're in a pandemic. I feel sorry for the people that have to deal with lockdowns.

 

[daveonezero]

it's gotten to the point where doctors are so sick of people telling them what they want,

well no shit they took all the money from pharma lobby that literally runs ads that train them to say “ask your doctor”

Wait one actually took a dewormer? That’s some crazy shit.

just using your definition. FYI they both took it. Not just one.

 

[Rentahamster]

Let's say you get 100% of the USA vaxxed, how are you going to control what the rest of the world does?
The Omicron Variant originated in South Africa, didn't it; not in New York or Florida.
So the idea that vaccinating everyone around you will stop the pandemic is not sound.

You can't control what the rest of the world does, but just because you can't control the actions of the rest of the world, does that mean it was a useless measure? No. 100% vaccination coverage of America would save many lives, and it would severely dampen the capability of the virus to spread communally. It would drastically reduce the incidents of hospitalizations. Of deaths. Of long COVID. It would reduce the time that people are out of commission, allowing them to get back to work faster. Our economy wouldn't be tanking so much due to staffing issues and restrictions. Hospitals wouldn't be overcrowded, patients wouldn't be turned away, and our healthcare system would operate as it usually does - like shit, but at least not on the brink of collapse. There are currently over a thousand people a day dying in the USA. The majority of them are unvaccinated. Vaccinating everyone around you might not stop the pandemic, but it would keep most of those 1,000 people a day from dying.

We don't know where the omicron variant originated in. It was first detected in SA, and it had the largest first impact there too, but that doesn't mean that's where it originated.

Vaccinating the world at 100% would stop the pandemic. Vaccinating the USA at 100% would put a severe dent in the pandemic.

Even if the entire world was vaxxed and booster shotted, people can still get sick and die from it. It's really just like the annual flu bug that makes millions sick every year and 1000s die, but more powerful. Covid doesn't seem like Polio where someone invents a vax and it's so effective if makes it come to a halt globally for 50 years.

Would the world then lay down the masks and max capacity policies? Or will it be a forever thing where govs will only get back to normal if it's eradicated like polio? Who knows.

Even if the entire world was vaxxed and booster shotted, people can still get sick and die from it - yes, this is technically correct (the best kind of correct). However this is lacking context. Here are some additional facts that add context. The following percentages aren't accurate, but for the sake of simple math, we will use them. Many naysayers like to say that they shouldn't be afraid of a virus that has a 99% survival rate. Are they right? The current population of planet Earth is around 8 billion people. Let's also assume that over the course of this pandemic, however long it takes, everyone will be infected. What is 1% of 8 billion, and how many dead people is that?

Now, given that the vaccine is about 90% effective at keeping you from dying, apply that to the previous number. How many people saved is that?

You're also technically correct that COVID19 doesn't seem like polio. That's because it's not. Those are two different diseases, and you are making a mistake by thinking that all you need for a disease to come to a global halt is to be effective. In reality, it takes a lot more than that. The polio vaccine is effective, but that's not why polio came to a global halt. Polio came to a global halt because nearly 100% of the world got vaccinated in a large scale, long term, worldwide campaign that not only administered vaccines, but also monitored for outbreaks. It also helped that polio only infects humans for the most part, unlike SARSCOV2 which can also infect lots of other animals.

Polio eradication - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In theory, if the right tools were available, it would be possible to eradicate all infectious diseases that reside only in a human host. In reality, there are distinct biological features of the organisms and technical factors of dealing with them that make their potential eradicability more or less likely. Three indicators, however, are considered of primary importance in determining the likelihood of successful eradication: that effective interventional tools are available to interrupt transmission of the agent, such as a vaccine; that diagnostic tools, with sufficient sensitivity and specificity, be available to detect infections that can lead to transmission of the disease; and that humans are required for the life-cycle of the agent, which has no other vertebrate reservoir and cannot amplify in the environment.[11]

Polio Disease and Poliovirus | CDC

Learn how the U.S. National Authority for Containment of Poliovirus promotes vaccines to protect against polio disease.

www.cdc.gov

Inactivated poliovirus vaccine (IPV) protects people against all three types of poliovirus. IPV does not contain live virus, so people who receive this vaccine do not shed the virus and cannot infect others, and the vaccine cannot cause disease. IPV does not stop transmission of the virus.

When will the world lay down the masks and max capacity policies? That depends on each individual country. It's safe to say, though, that the closer the world is to 100% vaccination status, the closer that world is to not needing masks or max capacity policies. Of course not completely, since there are other diseases out there besides COVID19.

Interesting that these variants aren't coming from the US. Since we have most cases you would think we would have the most chance of variations breaking out.

We have the most *recorded* cases. The actual number of cases in poorer countries is probably a lot higher due to less medical coverage and testing/reporting capability. Nevertheless, cases are useful to speculate on the likelihood of mutations popping up, but it is not the end all be all. It is conceivable that one area could have a lower number of cases but also have a higher total number of viral load amongst the population because of other factors like healthcare quality and availability. Additionally, the spread of variants requires transmission to be able to take over the world. In the USA, once someone is severely ill, they are contained fairly effectively in our hospitals. We also have good means to quarantine and isolate, relative to a poorer country like South Africa or India, for example. Even if the most dangerous variant the world has ever seen mutates tomorrow in Joe Schmoe from Las Vegas, it might not have a chance at infecting that many other people since Joe would be locked down in a hospital with many containment measures in place, being attended to by doctors and nurses who are all vaccinated. Compare that to Joe Schmoe from some other poorer country, dying at home among his 10 family members who are most likely all unvaccinated.

 

[BadBurger]

Even if the entire world was vaxxed and booster shotted, people can still get sick and die from it. It's really just like the annual flu bug that makes millions sick every year and 1000s die, but more powerful. Covid doesn't seem like Polio where someone invents a vax and it's so effective if makes it come to a halt globally for 50 years.

Would the world then lay down the masks and max capacity policies? Or will it be a forever thing where govs will only get back to normal if it's eradicated like polio? Who knows.

Regarding polio, remember that it was a DNA based virus that replicated in a manner that led to far less mutations (it maintained integrity far better, so less chances of mutations). It also only infected humans and therefore couldn't find reservoirs in other species (and in doing so mutate within those other species as well). These are some reasons why the polio vaccine was so incredibly effective.

 

[12Goblins]

well no shit they took all the money from pharma lobby that literally runs ads that train them to say “ask your doctor”

ya ain't wrong

 

[terintamel]

Even if the entire world was vaxxed and booster shotted, people can still get sick and die from it - yes, this is technically correct (the best kind of correct). However this is lacking context. Here are some additional facts that add context. The following percentages aren't accurate, but for the sake of simple math, we will use them. Many naysayers like to say that they shouldn't be afraid of a virus that has a 99% survival rate. Are they right? The current population of planet Earth is around 8 billion people. Let's also assume that over the course of this pandemic, however long it takes, everyone will be infected. What is 1% of 8 billion, and how many dead people is that?

Do keep in mind that that 99% is for all age groups averaged together. However with Covid the death rates are not at all close to evenly distributed with a majority (>70%) of all deaths occurring in those over the age of 70.

If you use the USA as an example we have around 253 million people that are under the age of 60 and around 75 million over 60. Using the death rate stats by age group we find that the estimated mortality rate (deaths/cases), which only includes those who got tested, of those under 60 is around 0.11% and around 1.33% for those over 60. This would mean then if every person of all ages in the USA got Covid we could estimate around 285,000 dead under 60 but a crazy 990,000 for those over 60 for a total of around 1.3million dead at 100% infection.

If we instead used the simple average of 1.5% for the USA Covid mortality rate and applied it equally to all age groups then we would expect to see 4.9million dead at 100% infection.

Not sure how the rest of the world is in regards to death rates by age groups, but it is something to keep in mind because using the simple total average death rate and applying to all age groups ,when Covid affects the younger age groups so drastically different, I feel gives an inaccurate picture of the true risk to the world or at least the national population.

 

[terintamel]

So if we then applied this to 8 billion people using the 0.11% for under 60 and 1.33% for over 60 and then assumed that 77% of the world population is under 60 then we could expect 34million dead at 100% infection. However using 1% across all age groups for 8 billion people the estimated deaths would be around 80million dead which is more than double.

 

[terintamel]

Another interesting thing to me is if we had another way to judge the economic and societal impact of pandemic on the world population instead of just raw head counts. Maybe something like number of years lost. So if we say the world population average life expectancy is 75 years old we then record the difference between 75 and the age of the person who died from Covid. So if a 20 year old dies then we would count the death as 55 years of life lost and if a 70 year old dies it would be 5 years of life lost. For those older than 75 we would then count the loss as a negative number.

Reason for this is in most parts of the world it is the young who hold the jobs that keeps the economies going by and large and while each death is tragic historically we always get a greater sense of sadness when a child dies vs a senior citizen because we say "they had their whole life in front of them" while the older person "had lived a full life".

Now I guess I would only use this metric in gauging the impact to a nations economy or the nations future as a pandemic that predominantly killed children or the working class would be catastrophic, in theory, to the nation's economy, industry, and its future. Where a pandemic that mostly kills the older and retired, while tragic on the personal level, would not have the same impact of the current economy or future outlook of a nation.

Could be something useful then when gauging the impact of lockdowns vs no lockdown and economic impacting restrictions vs little to no restrictions when combating viruses in the future.