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PS Plus Members in Asia Irate As Sony Wipes Discounts on Tier Upgrades, Demands Upfront Fee for Stacked Subs [UP: Sony fixes error]
- Thread starter Godot25
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dcmk7
Banned
yurinka
Member
Bullshit.
There are what, a couple of screenshots? Most long term PS+ users already paid a few months of Now to get the cheapest upgrade before launch. If they decide to upgrade post launch they'll pay the upgrade if the price is ok for them, and if not won't upgrade.
They said that post launch they'd have a pro-rated upgrade fee to upgrade remaining Plus time to higher tier. So these people wouln't need to pay the full tier. And this is what they are doing. And you are complaining because -in theory- you don't like the price of this fee/discount.
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ManaByte
Member
No they don't.
kingfey
Banned
Again, this might be a bug.
We will see, when the service launchs, whether this is a bug or real.
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The service has launched lol
ManaByte
Member
It's not a bug because the person you're arguing with either doesn't know what pro-rated means or is ignoring it to defend what's going on.
It's already pro-rated. If you have PS+ paid up through the end of the year, you'll need to pay the difference to upgrade it to whatever tier you're upgrading to. That's normal, and it's not a discount.
What people are mad about are the ones who bought a discounted PS+ sub FROM SONY on PSN and are now being made to not only pay the NORMAL pro-rated upgrade cost but an additional fee to "upgrade" the discounted subscription Sony sold them to a normal full priced PS+ sub, wiping out the discount. It's almost a bait and switch as they sold someone something cheaper, but now they're being forced to pay more.
How anyone can possibly try to defend that defies all logic.
ReBurn
Gold Member
Probably thought he was going to beat the system. The system hit back.
kingfey
Banned
Charging people back on products they bought on a discount is illegal. And if Sony knows this issue, then they will get sued.
I hope they fix this issues. It kinda defeats their ps+ discount offerings.
ManaByte
Member
Which is why this thread exists, despite the handwaving defense that's going on over it. That's why people are pissed.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
I still refuse to believe this. Isn’t charging people that received a discount in the past illegal? It’s like, I purchased my PS5 for $350 from a pawn shop and Sony finds out a year from now and threaten to disable my console if I don’t pay the extra $150 difference.
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Swift_Star
Banned
Yes. It’s why I believe they’ll backpedal and say it was a bug or a technical issue.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I can't find it on hand right now but someone posted a later tweet talking about their account with the PS support and the support rep basically saying that it's not an issue.
This shit certainly wouldn't fly if they try to pull it off in US or EU.
There is no solid evidence that this is even what is happening in the calculation. Only guesses based on quoted amount being close to the amount from a poster. Sony really need to clarify this and I hope they will by the end of the week.
Us has zero consumer protections. They try this in the EU have fun because they take consumer protection seriously.
ManaByte
Member
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chaseroni
Member
Yeah I read something similar from a user, basically saying that the support team seemed to be prepped to handle this exact kind of issue if they got calls about it.
Captain Toad
Banned
Stay classy
Captain Toad
Banned
This all seems pretty dumb of Sony if true. The vast majority of people complaining aren't even effected by this at all. It's just a lot of bad publicity for very little reason.
ManaByte
Member
It hasn't launched in the US yet. Were a lot of people take advantage of the Black Friday PS+ discount every year. Hold on to your butts.
Captain Toad
Banned
This has you really excited, huh? You've been posting on this thread non-stop.
Do you even have a PlayStation?
kingfey
Banned
Oh come on. Are you gonna play this game now? You of all people?
I don't think they will backpedal if it's not a genuine bug as I predict. They are more likely to give an explanation of the calculated amount and state it isn't removing any discounts applied to the stacked amount. The customer representative is probably trained to just say the calculated amount is correct but doesn't know if any discounts are taken into consideration or not. I don't know the language they are speaking though so could be wrong. I just know customer support have a habit of not taking what you're saying into consideration and just follow scripts.
ManaByte
Member
I don't think anyone approved it, it's probably just a side effect of them making the 33% off PS+ a "separate" PS+ without an upgrade path.
Swift_Star
Banned
That might be it. If you think about it, the best approach is to wait and see.
kingfey
Banned
That is why my judgment is reserved for that day. As of now, its Asia who are experiencing this.
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jshackles
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
I mean technically, Sony could charge whatever price they want for whatever service they have on offer. They could offer no pro-ration at all (this would be even more dumb of them, but it still wouldn't be illegal). For example, you could have Essential for 2 years but when you go to upgrade to Premium they could just choose to charge you $120 to do it - the same price as someone would pay if they didn't have Essential. You could either decide to pay it, or not. As long as they give you what you originally paid for (PS Essential) then they're not breaking any laws.
The fact that people's proration of additional services is different based on whether they bought their original subscription on a discount or not is definitely a shitty business practice and makes Sony just look greedy. But they're not taking anything away from people that they've already purchased (that would be illegal in the US) but rather simply not giving them a fair proration of additional services (not illegal).
By the way, I'm not trying to defend Sony here - this is straight up a terrible decision (or bug, or whatever). Just pointing out that it's not illegal.
kingfey
Banned
The illegal part would be charging extra money, for the discounted keys, which the users bought it for, and which Sony approved it.
In this sense, Sony is doing illegal action, as those keys were discounted by Sony itself. Not to mention, that Sony itself is the one, who is approving this upgrade process.
No matter how you slice it, it would be illegal in the eyes of the law.
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ReBurn
Gold Member
If people don't upgrade is Sony clawing the discount back when they move you to Essential? You have no choice other than to move to Essential, so Sony probably can't legally charge you more for that. But you don't have to move to any other tier.
While it sucks that they're doing this there's probably no law that says that Sony has to assign a value to an item other than the amount someone actually paid for it. If you buy something on sale and you want to return it and get something that costs more then the shop you purchase it from is only going to refund you the sale price, not the full price. If Sony offered actual refunds on digital subscriptions and you requested a refund would you expect that they would refund you the $60 value of a full year if you only paid $40 for a discounted subscription? Or would you only expect a $40 refund?
What Sony is most likely doing is canceling your original subscription and refunding you the remainder of the actual purchase price. Then they're creating a new subscription and applying the amount of the refund toward the new subscription. It's pretty simple math that way.
They could just as easily have based it off of the standard price, but then that could disenfranchise others. Suppose someone purchased 4 of the 3 month subscriptions at $25 each, effectively paying $100 for a year of PS+. If people are saying the upgrade should be based on a yearly subscription cost then what should this hypothetical person pay for an upgrade to the next tier? $40 or nothing? It's not likely anyone would do that but what if they got four of the 3 month cards as gifts?
The math is more straightforward by going off of purchase price which is probably why they did it. That doesn't mean it doesn't suck that they're doing it. They would have saved themselves a lot of trouble if they would have just eaten the difference.
GeeseGoose
Member
Many others have stated the same, but I’ll throw my penny in the well too. I think it’s likely a use case that hasn’t been caught by the team developing the backend.
If not then I shall enjoy watching the spectacle from afar.
If not then I shall enjoy watching the spectacle from afar.
thegame983
Member
Hardly surprising. This whole thing is a cash grab anyway.
anothertech
Member
If this is how it works, I call bug and this is a huge nothing burger.
kingfey
Banned
Sony is the one, who are offering the upgrade to the other tier, if you have alot ps+ or psnow stacked. So any issues that comes from this, is on Sony hands.
The problem is going after the discounted users. That is where Sony is fault at. They cannot in any sense, chargeback against users who bought it for a discount, which Sony issued along time. Simply because, no one had any idea, this service was going to be released for the public.
No matter what the tier of their service is, if they are allowing users to upgrade it to the highest tier, then Sony has to honor it.
as for refund, Sony would refund you, the amount which you bought the card for. Each card has a discount track. So they will refund you the discount amount, just like discounted games price refund.
Aguero9320
Member
This is too stupid to be true. Isn’t it?
Doesn’t affect me, but… Yikes.
Doesn’t affect me, but… Yikes.
ManaByte
Member
ReBurn
Gold Member
You're right that Sony is offering a new service and an upgrade track. But where you're wrong is in your opinion that Sony is legally obligated to award you the full retail value of your original subscription during the upgrade process if you paid less than retail value for it.
There's nothing different from retail perspective between a subscription and a toaster. If you pay $10 for a tier 1 toaster that normally retails for $25 then you get home and decide that you want to upgrade to a tier 2 $50 toaster instead the shop will allow you to do it. But they're going to charge you $40, not $25. If you bought a 12 month PS+ subscription for $40 and now you want the new $100 subscription instead, what specific law anywhere says that you are entitled to receive $60 in return for the subscription that you only paid $40 for? Especially when you are under no obligation to upgrade in the first place? If people are claiming this is illegal then which law is being broken? Which law says the exchange value of a thing must be anything other than what you actually paid for it or that a retailer must give you more than you paid in return?
Sony is wrong to charge customers the price difference from a moral perspective. It's bad PR and a disservice to us, the consumer. If I had stacked some discounted PS+ before I knew this change was happening I would be annoyed, too.
jshackles
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
They're not charging people extra money. They're only giving some people a worse pro-ration on upgrading their account. You still have to a) choose to upgrade your account to a more premium tier and b) agree to the price for that upgrade - which they're quoting you upfront. They can legally charge whatever they want for this because you still have to agree to it beforehand.
Otherwise, you still get what you've already paid for. However many years of PS+ you have stacked up, you'll get that many years of PS Essential. Sony isn't taking anything away from you that you've already purchased. Now, if they were deducting time from people's PS Essentials subscription as it's converted (that bought it on a discount) that'd be a different story.
Just because it's not fair doesn't mean it's illegal (speaking again just of the US here).
Hezekiah
Banned
Well to be fair, it's not the only reason you're in this thread
NoLootBoxDev
Member
In Cold Blood
Banned
Sony, Sony, Sony.
They will watch the reactions and if it's a shitstorm they will backtrack and say it was an error in the system that they are fixing.
If the reaction isn't so big, then they will not respond and it will blow over in a couple of weeks, with the help of some positive press from Journos who want to be invited to the next behind the scenes showcase.
They will watch the reactions and if it's a shitstorm they will backtrack and say it was an error in the system that they are fixing.
If the reaction isn't so big, then they will not respond and it will blow over in a couple of weeks, with the help of some positive press from Journos who want to be invited to the next behind the scenes showcase.
Swift_Star
Banned
I don’t think this is wrong. You’re right. It’s still stupid for Sony to do this anyway.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
The service doesn't launch till June 13, so Sony has 3 weeks to sort this out before it goes live for everyone.
Let's see if they backtrack like they did (partly) for the $10 upcharge for PS5 editions.
And even then they were shady as they still sold the PS5 edition for $10 more instead of just allowing gamers a single proper choice to buy a PS4/PS5 combo edition for cheaper like how they promoted the PS4 edition + PS5 upgrade for free.
So dont be surprised if they figure out a way to half heart a solution hoping the unsuspecting group of gamers dont notice.
Let's see if they backtrack like they did (partly) for the $10 upcharge for PS5 editions.
And even then they were shady as they still sold the PS5 edition for $10 more instead of just allowing gamers a single proper choice to buy a PS4/PS5 combo edition for cheaper like how they promoted the PS4 edition + PS5 upgrade for free.
So dont be surprised if they figure out a way to half heart a solution hoping the unsuspecting group of gamers dont notice.
TheAmazingSpiderMan
Member
Sony always taking 1 step forward but 2 steps back.
kingfey
Banned
Sony discounted the ps+. The upgrade is using ps+ subscription. Sony cant charge you, for something, which they themselves discounted. Users didnt ask Sony to discount it. They also, didnt ask Sony to upgrade them to the highest tier.
Again., that is on whoever is doing the discount. Users have no obligation to pay the extra money, for something, which the owner discounted.
Sony knew well, what they were doing with their discount. By cutting that price, they were giving up those money. That doesnt give them the rights to demand that money back.
This is what is all about. They are putting themselves in a bad position, by trying to act as petty.
No one did any illegal activity with those ps+ cards. They just bought what Sony offered them, and they are using it on something, which Sony gave them permission to.
The issue is that they are charging extra money, for something they themselves discounted. They have no legal ground here. Whether its $60 or $30, those cards were legally given away by Sony consent. They can not ask for any backsies. They are obligated to treat those cards as a $60 card.
The problem is treating those cards as a different card. Both discounted and the non discounted serve the same purpose. they give you the 12 month of PS+.
Sony is acting in bad faith, because they are blaming the users for buying those cards on discounted sales.
Sony can legally charge you what they want. But they cant charge you, for something, which they themselves approved for release, and the users already bought it.
Remember, Sony is the one that is converting the users here. And having those discounted cards shouldn't disqualify you from that.
SoloKingRobert
Banned
Smoke6
Member
So now it’s backpedaling even if it was truly and error? Fuck outta here with that shit man, it’s just fuel to shit on Sony when we all know there infrastructure is crap and has been that way for quite a while. Enough with the over exaggerating and drama.
People tried to get one over on Sony and it backfired, now wanna play victim of this turns out not to be the case of an error!
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