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[Oddvintagechap]

No, but what is extreme is repeating the same shit, in a different tone everytime, when a new evidence comes out.

Plus, when do gamers care about this shit? What do they even do with those numbers?

what do you do with this whole thread? this whole forum? your existence???

I need numbers. Meta here throwing money on VR. Gamepass in my view has the possibility of warping the gamemarket somewhere I don’t want it to go. But since Microsoft already has proclaimed it has a ceiling in revenue for the Xbox division, maybe the market had spoken.

 

[FBeeEye]

Growth has slowed down != GamePass had slowed down.

 

[adamsapple]

Growth has slowed down != GamePass had slowed down.

Indeed. When they say subs are growing and off-setting loss of revenue from not having any 1P games out, it means the sub service is growing more. Not slowing down.

 

[ReBurn]

I wonder how much they make off of my reward points.

They sell a lot of bing ads with those searches

 

[AJUMP23]

They sell a lot of bing ads with those searches

Probably more money made than if I paid direct.

 

[feynoob]

what do you do with this whole thread? this whole forum? your existence???

I need numbers. Meta here throwing money on VR. Gamepass in my view has the possibility of warping the gamemarket somewhere I don’t want it to go. But since Microsoft already has proclaimed it has a ceiling in revenue for the Xbox division, maybe the market had spoken.

The problem is MS cant provide their division sheet, due to how massive they are. And companies like MS often lump all the data together. As stated by R reksveks .

Also, gamepass is 25m+ now. It will grow higher and higher. Whatever numbers it put last year won't matter, since new subs will print out new revenue. Which makes the numbers even more useless.

 

[feynoob]

It's illegal to outright lie, yes. It's not illegal to withhold exact numbers and exaggerate a bit to puff up your product.

Profits are profits. Even if it's small or large.

What Matters is that the service puts out a profit at early stage, and not losing money.

So it's technically not a lie.

If I make 1$ profit, instead of 10$, it's a a profit for me, since I am not under -1$.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The problem is MS cant provide their division sheet, due to how massive they are. And companies like MS often lump all the data together. As stated by R reksveks .

Also, gamepass is 25m+ now. It will grow higher and higher. Whatever numbers it put last year won't matter, since new subs will print out new revenue. Which makes the numbers even more useless.

Apple doesn't even break out profits by individual product line. They lump it all into vague "Products" and "Services".

So if even they dont (one of the most profitable companies in the world), then why should anyone? Sony doesn't even disclose detailed P/L of the sub plans either. They PR top line sales and user count, but never profits.

You never know, they might be losing money on it. Nobody knows because they've never told if PS+ or PS Now were profitable.

 

[CS Lurker]

Best deal in gaming services. Great to know it's already profiting.

 

[Ozriel]

The argument has never been that Gamepass will never be profitable. It has been that in order to get it there, the types of games that Microsoft produces are not going to be the cutting edge kind that people wanted Microsoft to become competitive with, or at least purported to last gen. In fact, that their games would even devolve from what they were.

Perhaps Gamepass is "profitable for them" in a fiscal year where they've yet to release a first party game to put down on the balance sheets, and the only one that they will do is a combatless story game with Strega Nona picture book graphics and no voice acting from a "AAA" studio they bought over 3 years ago.

If it continues to be profitable in years where they actually do release games, I don't think people will be particularly happy or impressed by them. They certainly weren't by Halo Infinite.

In any case, if it's so profitable, one wonders why Spencer also said that they'll "have" to increase prices in the damn near same breath.

Quite the weird post. They’ve got more AAA games in development than ever before, and multiple smaller dev teams are being upgraded to AAA status.
Not to mention your assumption that development costs are only carried on the balance sheets when the game is released makes no sense.

Finally, Spencer isn’t on record saying he has to increase Gamepass prices. That’s a fantasy made up here.

One way to make it more profitable is to reduce the cost for their in house developers and that is the reality and what will be more obvious as time goes bye I'm afraid.

Seems more like wishful thinking to me. 5 years since the service launched and they’ve got even more AAA games in development than ever before.

 

[feynoob]

Quite the weird post. They’ve got more AAA games in development than ever before, and multiple smaller dev teams are being upgraded to AAA status.
Not to mention your assumption that development costs are only carried on the balance sheets when the game is released makes no sense.

The narritive has to change everytime, we get gamepass update.
We are now at the point, where MS would reduce their games budget, due to gamepass.

 

[Haggard]

So it's profitable, although ambiguously worded, and yet they still plan a price increase already....hmmmm

 

[twilo99]

PC is a great platform for this service.. I’m surprised it took them so long to get it rolling

 

[Ozriel]

What are the actual numbers then?

I want to see the magical numbers.

They said “will stay in that 10-15% of our overall revenue” … “at some point you've reached everybody on console that wants to subscribe.”

All I hear is we have to pivot to free to play.

Buy enough of MS stock, join up in the next earnings call and Phil and Satya will actually owe you detailed breakdown.

Screeching for detailed financials on a gaming forum is a pointless waste of time. But you already knew that.

 

[Ozriel]

So it's profitable, although ambiguously worded, and yet they still plan a price increase already....hmmmm

They’ve never said they plan a price increase on Gamepass.

 

[feynoob]

So it's profitable, although ambiguously worded, and yet they still plan a price increase already....hmmmm

That was bound to happen.

Its a script at this point for these subscription service.

Entice the users. Reach certain target. Increase the price, so that if you lose some users, you can recoup the lost money from other users.

 

[feynoob]

PC is a great platform for this service.. I’m surprised it took them so long to get it rolling

The only device, which can increase their gamepass userbase.

If they can access china, and india. They are looking around10m-30m userbase increase.

 

[adamsapple]

They’ve never said they plan a price increase on Gamepass.

Yep, just a vague "in the future". No idea if/when it will ever happen and what will be impacted. Consoles ? Games ? Sub service ? It's nebulous for at least another year.

Besides, being profitable doesn't mean you can't increase price. See PS5 disc edition, which was reportedly profitable for Sony as of 2021. Yet they still increased the price.

 

[The_Mike]

Profitable for Microsoft, but is it profitable for game developers?

What a moronic question.

If it wasn't, then the developers would not put their games on the service.

There's no one holding game devs at gun point and forces their games on there if some criteria aren't met.

The cooking Simulator dev got 600.000 usd for putting their game on GP.

Also, Yakuza Studio Director Praises Game Pass, Says It Contributed Largely To Series Success In West, but I'm sure you can spin it into a negative thing.

 

[Topher]

What a moronic question.

If it wasn't, then the developers would not put their games on the service.

This should be obvious. It is a significant cash insertion for developers. Game Pass is profitable all around. Folks wanted that answered and it has been.

 

[feynoob]

This should be obvious. It is a significant cash insertion for developers. Game Pass is profitable all around. Folks wanted that answered and it has been.

 

[SteelCurtain 59]

The only people who didn't think it was profitable are the same people who will ignore this because "Phil Spencer said it"

 

[THE DUCK]

Where is everyone who said it fail? (you know, there was a bunch of you) Come speak up now and admit defeat!!

 

[FalsettoVibe]

50% of Series S sold are new to the Xbox eco system. I would have expected that to increase console Game Pass subs.

Maybe people are just tired of subscriptions. idk

 

[oldergamer]

Profitable.... but maybe we can increase the price...

Nice try. Too many people were doubting that they were turning a profit when it was pulling in a few billion.

 

[Clear]

Just being "profitable" doesn't make it a success.

Its not the totality of the Xbox business in terms of revenue streams, so if GP is up but the other streams are not growing so much, or worse either flat or down... what's the net effect?

Hardware sales are doing reasonably well, but as MS have themselves noted they aren't the market leader. They aren't eroding Sony and NIntendo's market-share to any real degree and lets not make any bones about it - that, to be top dog, is what they desire.

Bearing in mind Playstation has been supply constrained since launch, I'd expect them to be doing better. $2.9b is a lot of money, but lets be real chances are thats the revenue generated largely from a segment that while it contains new users, undoubtedly also includes all their most dedicated fans.

What should be of most concern is that due to the nature of the service, revenue is likely to directly correlate to subscriber count. So if growth slows, they will need to look to other means to increase profitability. Now given that the other two major control points are ARPU (subscription fees per user plus ancilliary spends like MTX), and investment into product development/procurement, those are the screws they'll need to tighten in order to boost performance.

 

[Iced Arcade]

but but thats not what I heard on gaf

 

[feynoob]

Just being "profitable" doesn't make it a success.

Its not the totality of the Xbox business in terms of revenue streams, so if GP is up but the other streams are not growing so much, or worse either flat or down... what's the net effect?

Bearing in mind Playstation has been supply constrained since launch, I'd expect them to be doing better. $2.9b is a lot of money, but lets be real chances are thats the revenue generated largely from a segment that while it contains new users, undoubtedly also includes all their most dedicated fans.

2022 was a shit year, with no 1st party output, aside of ghost wire tokyo, which is PS exclusive for 1 year. So its expected the revenue for this year to be shit, compared to last year. Worse, is that alot of 3rd party went to 2023. Samething is happening to Sony.
2023 would increase that revenue, since that year is so packed up with games.

January​

Persona 4 Golden (Switch, PC, PS4, Xbox Series X|S, Xbox One) - January 19

Persona 3 Portable (Switch, PC, PS4, Xbox Series X|S, Xbox One) - January 19

Fire Emblem Engage (Switch) - January 20

Forspoken (PS5, PC) - January 24

Dead Space (PS5, Xbox Series X|S, PC) - January 27

February​

Deliver Us Mars (PC, PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S) - February 2

Dead Island 2 (PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S, PC) - February 3

Hogwarts Legacy (PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X/S, PlayStation 4, Xbox One, PC) - February 10

Theaterhtym Final Bar Line (Switch, PS4) - February 16

Digimon World: Next Order (Switch, PC) - February 22

Company of Heroes 3 (PC) - February 23

Atelier Ryza 3: Alchemist of the End & The Secret Key (Switch, PS4, PS5, PC) - February 24

Kerbal Space Program 2 (PC) - February 24

Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe (Switch) - February 24

Octopath Traveler 2 (Switch) - February 24

March​

The Day Before (PC, Xbox Series X|S, PS5) - March 1

Wo Long: Fallen Dynasty (PC, PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S) - March 3

April​

May​

The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom (Switch) - May 12

June​

July​

August​

September​

October​

November​

December​

To Be Announced​

Alan Wake 2 (PS5, Xbox Series X|S, PC)

Another Crab's Treasure (Switch, PC)

Arc Raiders (PC, Xbox Series X|S, PS5)

Ark 2 (Xbox Series X|S, PC)

Atlas Fallen (PC, Xbox Series X|S, PS5)

Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora (PS5, Xbox Series X|S, Stadia, PC)

Behemoth (Quest 2)

Black Myth: Wukong (PC, PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S)

Blanc (Switch, PC)

Convergence: A League of Legends Story (PC)

Cygni: All Guns Blazing (PS5, Xbox Series X|S, PC)

Diablo IV (PC, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S, PS4, PS5)

EA Sports PGA Tour 2023 (PS5, Xbox Series X|S, PC)

Eiyuden Chronicle: Hundred Heroes (Switch, PS4, PS5, Xbox Series X|S, Xbox One, PC)

Everywhere (Platforms TBA)

Exoprimal (PC, PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S)

Fae Farm (Switch)

Fatal Frame: Mask of the Lunar Eclipse (Switch)

Final Fantasy XVI (PS5)

Firmament (PC, PS4, PS5)

Frontier's Warhammer: Age of Sigmar RTS (PC, consoles TBA)

Homeworld 3 (PC)

Inazuma Eleven: Victory Road of Heroes (PS4, Switch, iOS, Android)

Kerbel Space Program 2 (PC, PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S)

Killer Klowns From Outer Space: The Game (PC, PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S)

Lies of P (PC, PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S)

Lorelei and the Laser Eyes (Switch, PC)

Marvel's Midnight Suns (PS4, Xbox One, Nintendo Switch)

Master Detective Archives: Rain Code (Switch)

Mega Man Battle Network Legacy Collection (Switch, PS4, PC)

Metal Slug Tactics (Switch, PC)

Mina the Hollower (PC)

Minecraft Legends (Switch, PC, PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S)

Mortal Kombat: Onslaught (iOS, Android)

Mumbai Gullies (PC)

Nightingale (PC)

Nine Sols (PC, Switch, PS4)

Oxenfree II: Lost Signals (Switch, PS4, PS5, PC)

Paradize Project (PC, PS5, Xbox Series X|S)

Payday 3 (PC, consoles TBA)

Pikmin 4 (Switch)

Planet of Lana (Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S, PC)

Pragmata (PS5, Xbox Series X|S, PC)

Redfall (PC, Xbox Series X|S)

Replaced (PC, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S)

RoboCop: Rogue City (PC, Xbox Series X|S, PS5, Switch)

Sea of Stars (PC, Switch)

Season: A letter to the future (PS4, PS5, PC)

Schim (PC, PS4, PS5)

Silent Hill: Ascension (TBA)

Song of Nunu: A League of Legends Story (PC, PS4, Xbox One, PS5, Xbox Series X|S, Switch)

Stalker 2: Heart of Chornobyl (Xbox Series X|S, PC)

Starfield (PC, Xbox Series X|S)

Star Wars: Hunters (Switch, iOS, Android)

Street Fighter 6 (PS4, PS5, Xbox Series X|S, PC)

Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League (Xbox Series X|S, PS5, PC)

Super Bomberman R 2 (Switch, PS4, PS5, Xbox Series X|S, Xbox One, PC)

System Shock (PS4, PS5, Xbox Series X|S, Xbox One, PC)

Tales of Symphonia (Switch, PS4, Xbox One)

Tchia (PS4, PS5, PC)

Test Drive Unlimited: Solar Crown (Xbox Series X|S, Switch, PS5, PC)

The Great War: Western Front (PC)

The Lords of the Fallen (PC, PS5, Xbox Series X|S)

The Wolf Among Us 2 (PC, PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S)

Tintin Reporter: Cigars of the Pharoah (Switch, PS4, PS5, Xbox Series X|S, Xbox One, PC)

To The Stars (Switch, PC)

Warhammer 40,000: Boltgun (Switch, PS4, PS5, Xbox Series X|S, Xbox One, PC)

Hardware sales are doing reasonably well, but as MS have themselves noted they aren't the market leader. They aren't eroding Sony and NIntendo's market-share to any real degree and lets not make any bones about it - that, to be top dog, is what they desire.

Wont happen. They need to gain their market share first. It would take alot of 1st party games, and marketing. Good luck with that. MS is so late to the party.

What should be of most concern is that due to the nature of the service, revenue is likely to directly correlate to subscriber count. So if growth slows, they will need to look to other means to increase profitability. Now given that the other two major control points are ARPU (subscription fees per user plus ancilliary spends like MTX), and investment into product development/procurement, those are the screws they'll need to tighten in order to boost performance.

That means already exist with other service they offer (dlc, mtx, game sales). If that is not enough, they would do the price increase. But as long as mtx exist,the revenue would increase. That is what COD is for. Increase that mtx sales.

 

[Hugare]

As always:

I'll take the words from one of the only companies in the world that could have billions of dollars to burn with a pinch of salt

Even if it is proffitable, I doubt it's sustainable enough to pay for 500M productions such as Halo.

My prediction is that as soon as they hit the subscribers roof, they will go the Netflix route, increasing the price and making tons of shitty original productions hoping that one will be a hit.

 

[oldergamer]

Just being "profitable" doesn't make it a success.

Its not the totality of the Xbox business in terms of revenue streams, so if GP is up but the other streams are not growing so much, or worse either flat or down... what's the net effect?

Hardware sales are doing reasonably well, but as MS have themselves noted they aren't the market leader. They aren't eroding Sony and NIntendo's market-share to any real degree and lets not make any bones about it - that, to be top dog, is what they desire.

Bearing in mind Playstation has been supply constrained since launch, I'd expect them to be doing better. $2.9b is a lot of money, but lets be real chances are thats the revenue generated largely from a segment that while it contains new users, undoubtedly also includes all their most dedicated fans.

What should be of most concern is that due to the nature of the service, revenue is likely to directly correlate to subscriber count. So if growth slows, they will need to look to other means to increase profitability. Now given that the other two major control points are ARPU (subscription fees per user plus ancilliary spends like MTX), and investment into product development/procurement, those are the screws they'll need to tighten in order to boost performance.

You are desperate to spin it. Its making billions. Its profitable. Its a success. Deal with it

 

[oldergamer]

As always:

I'll take the words from one of the only companies in the world that could have billions of dollars to burn with a pinch of salt

Even if it is proffitable, I doubt it's sustainable enough to pay for 500M productions such as Halo.

My prediction is that as soon as they hit the subscribers roof, they will go the Netflix route, increasing the price and making tons of shitty original productions hoping that one will be a hit.

For the last time halo didnt cost 500 million

 

[remember_spinal]

“game pass is profitable”

Gaf:

 

[Ozriel]

50% of Series S sold are new to the Xbox eco system. I would have expected that to increase console Game Pass subs.

‘Growth is slowing’ doesn’t translate to ‘there’s no growth’.

 

[Ozriel]

Even if it is proffitable, I doubt it's sustainable enough to pay for 500M productions such as Halo.

The bulk of video game budgets come from salaries paid to developers, costs for travel, licensing etc.

I’ve always been mildly bemused at people who are gullible enough to believe that Halo Infinite cost $500m to make. How do you justify that when you think of it?

 

[adamsapple]

Just being "profitable" doesn't make it a success.

"Just because it hit 10 million doesn't make it a success"

"Just because it has day 1 games doesn't make it a success"

"Just because it hit 20 million doesn't make it a success"

"Just because it's sustainable doesn't make it a success"

"Just because it's growing every quarter doesn't make it a success"

"Just being profitable doesn't make it a success" <---- you are here.

"Just because it's on every console doesn't make it a success"

 

[Topher]

As always:

I'll take the words from one of the only companies in the world that could have billions of dollars to burn with a pinch of salt

Even if it is proffitable, I doubt it's sustainable enough to pay for 500M productions such as Halo.

My prediction is that as soon as they hit the subscribers roof, they will go the Netflix route, increasing the price and making tons of shitty original productions hoping that one will be a hit.

Why would Game Pass pay for the production costs of games like Halo? Spencer said Game Pass is around 10-15% of revenue. That leaves a lot of revenue from other sources so why would Game Pass be the one source of revenue that has to play for dev costs? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Warablo]

People are worried about a increase in price, meanwhile Sony has already increased their prices.

 

[adamsapple]

Why would Game Pass pay for the production costs of games like Halo? Spencer said Game Pass is around 10-15% of revenue. That leaves a lot of revenue from other sources so why would Game Pass be the one source of revenue that has to play for dev costs? That doesn't make sense.

Exactly. Some users also have the notion that you must include first party development cost within the game pass revenue pool. Considering everything on game pass is also available to purchase separately, it is not exclusive content.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Okay, but how profitable is it? These vague statements don't tell us a single thing new; we already assumed GamePass brought them in some profit, the leaked CADE info already allowed us to work some numbers out.

The question for me isn't if GamePass brings in a profit, but how MUCH profit, because we know the revenue isn't a 1:1 with actual net profit off the service. If revenue is for example, $1.25 billion/year, you still have to shave off some of that for library licensing costs, operation costs (which would include managing the servers and costs for hosting), etc.

That would probably put actual profit under $1 billion annually, at least going with the leaked 2021 numbers. Not bad per se, it's $50 ARPU on revenue and still above $40 ARPU in profit. It would just be interesting if Microsoft actually gave some substantive numbers instead of percentages that have a cloud of obfuscation between any hard numbers that can help ground the claims.

 

[feynoob]

Why would Game Pass pay for the production costs of games like Halo? Spencer said Game Pass is around 10-15% of revenue. That leaves a lot of revenue from other sources so why would Game Pass be the one source of revenue that has to play for dev costs? That doesn't make sense.

It's neogaf. Logic is out of the window, when they talk about stuff, they don't understand.

It's like Xbox store, windows store and steam don't exist at all.

 

[feynoob]

Okay, but how profitable is it? These vague statements don't tell us a single thing new; we already assumed GamePass brought them in some profit, the leaked CADE info already allowed us to work some numbers out.

It generates almost 15% of what xbox makes. That is quite alot of money, for a service, which has relatively low userbase.

The question for me isn't if GamePass brings in a profit, but how MUCH profit, because we know the revenue isn't a 1:1 with actual net profit off the service. If revenue is for example, $1.25 billion/year, you still have to shave off some of that for library licensing costs, operation costs (which would include managing the servers and costs for hosting), etc.

Hard to calculate, considering gamepass isnt stable at the moment. The service is getting new games, AAA day1 games, and more userbase every year. You wont find definitive revenue streamline base, until the service is at stable numbers,

For example, at 50m, we can conclude that service brings up to $6b. And because more growth is hard, that would be our streamline base for the service. By that point, its easy to calculate the cost, and the revenue.

That would probably put actual profit under $1 billion annually, at least going with the leaked 2021 numbers. Not bad per se, it's $50 ARPU on revenue and still above $40 ARPU in profit. It would just be interesting if Microsoft actually gave some substantive numbers instead of percentages that have a cloud of obfuscation between any hard numbers that can help ground the claims.

I doubt the profit is higher than $500m. Gamepass needs to be reinvested again, in order to make it attractive. That is how you maintain a good service. And to do that, you have to put the money it makes, back to the service. Especially future AAA day1 games.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

Lol, don't raise the price until you have seen most subscribers pay the full price.

 

[Torrent of Pork]

None of this will matter here, the same peanut gallery will accuse anything Spenser says of lying even if he said the sky is blue.

 

[GHG]

Assuming the following is true:



Gamepass quarterly revenue is anywhere from 361 million - 541.5 million.

 

[oldergamer]

"Just because it hit 10 million doesn't make it a success"

"Just because it has day 1 games doesn't make it a success"

"Just because it hit 20 million doesn't make it a success"

"Just because it's sustainable doesn't make it a success"

"Just because it's growing every quarter doesn't make it a success"

"Just being profitable doesn't make it a success" <---- you are here.

"Just because it's on every console doesn't make it a success"

This right here. People need to stop applying new qualifications to something so simple.

 

[oldergamer]

Okay, but how profitable is it? These vague statements don't tell us a single thing new; we already assumed GamePass brought them in some profit, the leaked CADE info already allowed us to work some numbers out.

The question for me isn't if GamePass brings in a profit, but how MUCH profit, because we know the revenue isn't a 1:1 with actual net profit off the service. If revenue is for example, $1.25 billion/year, you still have to shave off some of that for library licensing costs, operation costs (which would include managing the servers and costs for hosting), etc.

That would probably put actual profit under $1 billion annually, at least going with the leaked 2021 numbers. Not bad per se, it's $50 ARPU on revenue and still above $40 ARPU in profit. It would just be interesting if Microsoft actually gave some substantive numbers instead of percentages that have a cloud of obfuscation between any hard numbers that can help ground the claims.

On what planet does that matter to consumers?

 

[NickFire]

Profitable without 1st party games in 2022 ?... not bad!

Perhaps that was the reason?

 

[feynoob]

Assuming the following is true:



Gamepass quarterly revenue is anywhere from 361 million - 541.5 million.

Which begs the question, is the Brazil document true?
They reported 2.9b. But with your math, that means it only does 1.4b to 2.1b.

 

[Bulletbrain]

go sign in your gaming instrument of choice and play some games.

To question and to ask for numbers isn’t extreme.

The thing is, where does it stop? Can we ask for LoU series profits? Or Gears 5 game profits? Or PS5 digital only profitability Vs PS5 fat? Series S Vs Series X hardware only profitability? All of the above info I'd be interested to know, but companies aren't compelled to release any of them.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Microsoft has some of the best experience spinning financial numbers to make them appear better than they really are, so I'm not going to take this statement at face value until he actually shows the receipts which we know they won't do. Very easy to claim a service is "profitable" without accounting for all the actual costs (like ongoing game development for all their studios).