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[hussar16]

And what pushes that subscription model? What's the thing that gets people to sign up to a subscription?

The conversation was about the aaa games not selling consoles like Phil mentioned

No, because they will OWN the cloud that the brands operate on. That's the point. It'd be like Sony owning the rights to produce silicon-based console hardware.

It's a completely new playing field, and Microsoft has a great chance to dominate it. As long as they just stop stepping on rakes.

Microsoft is so anti competitive it's not even funny. They have audacity to say sony is anti competition because they make better content

When you look at subscription services for Microsoft Office, it was already a product that everyone had to buy, plus it doesn't really have a major pay-to-own alternative.

That doesn't work for Xbox. It has major competitors across the board.

The problem with gaming is that it isn't ready for a subscription model.

You can buy Netflix for 15 dollars and you can get hours of content for that.

Subsidizing gaming at the same price doesn't work when each game costs significantly more to make and takes active participation to consume.

Music and TV/Movies even news is very different from gaming. There might become a time where the general public plays games as much as they watch tv, but that isn't where we are today. You also can't play games while driving to work in the morning (you can play on mobile on public transportation, but that's not really what is being sold here yet).

Once bandwidth reaches a point and latency is low enough we'll have more mobile play anywhere experiences. We're not there yet.

Doesn't matter how you think it doesn't matter. All it matters is that is how Microsoft wants it to be. They want to be the netflix of gaming and monopolize the industry. I'd go as far to say they want to force sony to put Xbox game pass on their consoles with Activision deal. They know exactly what they are doing.

 

[Jerm411]

Did he invested in MS stocks too?

Can you just imagine the amount of drool and slobber that had to have been running out of him as he pecked away at his keyboard for this gem…

Bless his heart.

 

[cireza]

Do I have to yet again post Nadella's words on the subject? Where he made a huge fuss about the fact Xbox was outselling Playstation?

The narrative changes when the circumstances change with Xbox. When they're outselling Sony it's all about the consoles... and when they're not, suddenly console sales don't matter.

And if they don't see consoles as being very important, why did they bother with Series S? A cheap console exclusively designed to appeal to the casual gamer? Why bother with an Xbox console at all? Why not just produce software?

Series X and S are simply part of what brings them revenue. Of course it is important for them, but it is simply A PART of what is important. I don't see what is difficult to understand here ?

"People" do the same thing with Series X, S and compare their sales, because we need only one winner of course ! If Series S doesn't sell more than X, it is a failure. If it doesn't sell more than Switch, it is a failure. I think we got the point. But this is not how Microsoft measures their success, only console warriors.

They generate revenue from PC as well, from XCloud on other devices, from subscriptions etc... So obviously, selling more consoles than whatever competitor is not a necessity. Maybe it was 15 years ago, but things have changed.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

People are mostly missing the point of what he said. He readjusted expectations and said that no matter what they won’t be able to out console PlayStation or Nintendo.

It doesnt mean they won’t make great games. But it does mean that if you are looking for a console that will bring you exclusives, a very focused experience, or if you are expecting to be on the number one console ecosystem then Xbox isn’t it.

Xbox is a part of their strategy but people have to accept their strategy is not making a better console than PlayStation or Nintendo. But if you like gamepass there it is.

If you don't like GamePass and you just wanted them to deliver on the promises made at the very beginning of the gen, you are fucked.

That's me. I wanted a premium console with Halo, Gears and Forza showing off what the hardware could do and I wanted great BC. Games like Hellblade 2 and Starfield wouldve been the cherry on top. It feels like they've abandoned people like myself who don't care about renting games with a sub service.

Insisting that everything must run on Series S plus GP has insured that MS exclusives will never be technical marvels like they used to.

After the focus on GP they've gone back on those promises. BC program shut down hurts a lot. That would be an obvious and easy win for Microsoft. Release some 4k/60 patches for games stuck in 720p/30. Get back to your promises and catering towards gamers wants. They could inject some life into some xbox exclusives and easily give their brand a boost.

These games should've already gotten patches at the beginning of the gen.

 

[hemo memo]

What a bizarre statement. He should’ve said high budget games or AAA games I would understand. But why would you say great games? Yes great games don’t sell consoles. WiiU proved that. That doesn’t mean Nintendo stopped. They still gave the WiiU their best. You should always aim for great games.

 

[FunkMiller]

Series X and S are simply part of what brings them revenue. Of course it is important for them, but it is simply A PART of what is important. I don't see what is difficult to understand here ? But "people" do the same thing with Series X, S and compare their sales, because we need only one winner of course ! If Series S doesn't sell more than X, it is a failure. If it doesn't sell more than Switch, it is a failure. I think we got the point. But this is not how Microsoft measures their success, only console warriors.

They generate revenue from PC as well, from XCloud on other devices, from subscriptions etc... So obviously, selling more consoles than whatever competitor is not a necessity. Maybe it was 15 years ago, but things have changed.

And that's the narrative they love to sell you, whenever it's clear that Xbox is being trounced in the console market. But... again... they still love to crow about the times when Xbox outsells Playstation.

I think Xbox's main issue is that they don't actually know what they want. Is it to not worry about console sales, and just concentrate on the whole eco-system? Or do they want to be successful as console manufacturers?

I don't think they're ever going to compete with Sony or Nintendo all the time they don't make up their minds about that.

 

[Bragr]

What a bizarre statement. He should’ve said high budget games or AAA games I would understand. But why would you say great games? Yes great games don’t sell consoles. WiiU proved that. That doesn’t mean Nintendo stopped. They still gave the WiiU their best. You should always aim for great games.

But he is. I don't understand why you guys read his words like this.

They are still aiming at making the best games they can, it's just he doesn't believe it's gonna be enough to win the console race.

But they are buying studios for a reason, because great games are gonna give them the biggest push.

At no point does he say they are not gonna make the best games they can.

 

[cireza]

And that's the narrative they love to sell you

They are not in the business of selling narratives, but subscriptions, games and consoles. Personally, I bought an Xbox Series X and GamePass from them. And many games...

But... again... they still love to crow about the times when Xbox outsells Playstation.

Every company loves to communicate on sales numbers when they are very high, this is not "Xbox exclusive".

 

[Mibu no ookami]

The conversation was about the aaa games not selling consoles like Phil mentioned

Microsoft is so anti competitive it's not even funny. They have audacity to say sony is anti competition because they make better content

Doesn't matter how you think it doesn't matter. All it matters is that is how Microsoft wants it to be. They want to be the netflix of gaming and monopolize the industry. I'd go as far to say they want to force sony to put Xbox game pass on their consoles with Activision deal. They know exactly what they are doing.

Who said it didn't matter?

Sony was never going to let GamePass onto PlayStation ABK or otherwise.

 

[BlackTron]

It couldn't have gotten worse for Nintendo during WiiU times and then they launched its successor with one important game

 

[FunkMiller]

Every company loves to communicate on sales numbers when they are very high, this is not "Xbox exclusive".

But not every company tries to pretend those sales numbers don't matter when they aren't.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

He’s not “admitting defeat”. What is people’s issue here? He’s saying Xbox is never going to overtake PlayStation. You’re not going to convert die hard PlayStation console players to switch over to the Xbox ecosystem. He’s succinctly pointing out what we all already know.

Xbox’s plan is not to somehow magically supplant PlayStation as the dominant hardcore AAA high-end console platform.

Like Nintendo, Xbox needs to do their own thing and find success in that.

What is so complicated about what Phil’s saying, and why so much hyperbole from people?

 

[hussar16]

Who said it didn't matter?

Sony was never going to let GamePass onto PlayStation ABK or otherwise elder scrolls fallout diablo

Who said it didn't matter?

Sony was never going to let GamePass onto PlayStation ABK or otherwise.

Your looking at it Short term. If Microsoft win the leader subscription model because they buyout half the gaming companies and somehow beat Sony and take over most market share .Sony might have to be forced to to put Xbox game pass on their console to please fans so they keep buying their console. Now so far its not happening because we haven't seen these eventual buyouts and the effects it could bring but in 5 years we could see it.

 

[cireza]

But not every company tries to pretend those sales numbers don't matter when they aren't.

They don't pretend anything, they clearly admit it.

Some people were happy of an exceptional event being that Xbox was ahead a few months ? Of course they would, what's the issue with this ? Still isn't their main objective.

 

[shaddam]

Can you just imagine the amount of drool and slobber that had to have been running out of him as he pecked away at his keyboard for this gem…

Bless his heart.

>Can you just imagine
I rather not

 

[Bavarian_Sloth]

With Forza, Starfield, Hellblade 2, Stalker 2, Fable, Avowed, Gears, and more future (good!) exclusives, M$ can still steer things in the right direction.

They are literally sitting on a pile of gold... Quake, Wolfenstein, Doom, Banjo Kazooie, Conker, Perfect Dark... maybe even considering some forgotten but excellent games like Rallisport Challenge or Kameo.

As others have already written, the Showcase in June and the following 24 months will be the "D-Months" for them. It's their last chance.

 

[DJ12]

And that's the narrative they love to sell you, whenever it's clear that Xbox is being trounced in the console market. But... again... they still love to crow about the times when Xbox outsells Playstation.

I think Xbox's main issue is that they don't actually know what they want. Is it to not worry about console sales, and just concentrate on the whole eco-system? Or do they want to be successful as console manufacturers?

I don't think they're ever going to compete with Sony or Nintendo all the time they don't make up their minds about that.

Yes I found it all very bizarre that ms bragged about outselling ps5 when you simply couldn't find ps5s for sale anywhere.

 

[CherryFalls]

And what pushes that subscription model? What's the thing that gets people to sign up to a subscription?

A load of content

 

[Withnail]

He’s not “admitting defeat”. What is people’s issue here? He’s saying Xbox is never going to overtake PlayStation. You’re not going to convert die hard PlayStation console players to switch over to the Xbox ecosystem. He’s succinctly pointing out what we all already know.

Xbox’s plan is not to somehow magically supplant PlayStation as the dominant hardcore AAA high-end console platform.

Like Nintendo, Xbox needs to do their own thing and find success in that.

What is so complicated about what Phil’s saying, and why so much hyperbole from people?

The gaming audience is not a lake, it’s a river. More people get into gaming every day and the market can shift suddenly. The hardcore places like this where views are pretty entrenched are not at all representative of the wider market.

Xbox management or fans didn’t start this gen planning for third place in hardware sales and attempts to move the goalposts are attracting derision.

 

[PaintTinJr]

After watching the full interview I would agree that the words do sound far more damning out of context than in context.

However some of the takeaways from Phil are that he's got zero instincts about what is a good "creative idea" - which is exactly why wealthy backing leads to such failures, because talent usually has to fight to financially survive in gaming to even be able to bet their own future on their creative vision, leaving little place for error or complacency until they established themselves with a track record of bangers.

His comment regarding competing with PlayStation and Nintendo -gamers selling their PS5 for 11/10 starfield - exposes that Xbox have zero interest in the cultural aspect of gaming, and would never "sail the ship alone" with just the critical and cultural success of their own output - even if it was all bangers - like Nintendo or PlayStation would, because their entire reason to be in gaming is now confirmed they are only interested in being there for the 30% take of all the software.

They have no mission to use their HW engineering skills to deliver best in class hardware for gaming at a mainstream price, and they have no mission to culturally define gaming with new amazing experiences and best in class production from their art and software engineering skills, they merely wish to be Valve. Which if they were looking to acquire Valve - for Steam - instead of ATVI and were prepared to abandon DirectX and Xbox with that acquisition, then that would be much easier to support IMHO, except for the fact that they've stupidly acquired 20 odd studios and all that IP to make games that they clearly lack the vision and direction to enhance and give a good future to.

I suspect what we aren't being told by Phil is that their vision isn't liked by the most talented staff they acquire with studio acquisitions and they are losing the critical talent in studios, despite employing thousands of staff

 

[Desprado123]

I am amaze to see some Xbox fan comment. When it's management it self is not invested in the Xbox brand than why are you?

Your only reason to Purchase xbox at this point is that you do not like Sony due to your own personal reason as simple as that.

 

[acm2000]

hes not stupid, hes saying what needs to be said while the activision takeover is still trying to go ahead, hes ticking those PR boxes to sway the regulators.

 

[Hoho for breakfast]

I dont have the time to watch all this but he says there's a notion that if you just make great games that they'll "win" but he says that isn't true...

It shouldn't be about winning or losing first of all (even though of course each company would love to "win"). And second of all they absolutely need great games regardless if they're first place or dead last.

Where is Fable? Release that and if it's good guess what? I'd buy a $500 Xbox to play it. How about somebody do a new TimeSplitters? I'd buy an Xbox just for that. There's a lot of games they could make and if they were good exclusives I'd buy their console for it. Would it propel them to be the winners of the generation? Hell no we're well beyond that point. It doesn't matter though. Make great games and your damn console would sell more.

 

[wipeout364]

I don't think Gamepass or the way they run their business is sustainable for any normal company. Gamepass is not making anywhere near the profits you'd expect given the snippets and info we have gleamed, and selling two console's at a loss 2 years after releasing them is terrible business.

But the Azure server and Microsoft’s services business are very profitable. Gamepass ties nicely Into azure especially as a proof of concept. Similar to how Epic made games to demonstrate the ability of the unreal engine.

Microsoft for better or worse looks at Xbox as a division that is tied into a much larger corporate Vision. Xbox does not need to be immensely profitable but needs to show that is is not causing harm but is helping Microsoft achieve its goal of being a significant backbone of the internet services industry.

We don’t know the future and this may mean Xbox is shut down at some point but I would argue the risks are just as high for Sony and Nintendo as technology moves forward. We have already seen Sony say their current game development process is likely unsustainable due to costs.

 

[SABRE220]

Now this is just sad...Imagine some of the talented developers and artists who are actually trying under Microsoft and they listen to this shit would kill any motivation and ambition they had left. This is the shit that football managers do when they are begging for a sack so they can get money for the rest of their contracts...spineless behaviour that shirks any responsibility. I remember when the 360 launched, I was completely in the Sony ecosystem and yet when I saw Gears of war, mass effect and halo 3 etc I didnt think twice about buying the console.. Still remember Gears of war for the first time and ending halo3 with the warthog run and going to the citadel.

Despite the Rodd the 360 kicked sont up the ass forcing them to give it all they had....someone get this man out and get someone in who actually has some ambition and vision...Phil after a decade basically went well we tried to compete with a 80Billion acquisition booho.

 

[Bragr]

It couldn't have gotten worse for Nintendo during WiiU times and then they launched its successor with one important game

Nintendo is different, their brand recognition allows them different opportunities than Xbox got.

 

[Sethbacca]

I think Xbox's main issue is that they don't actually know what they want. Is it to not worry about console sales, and just concentrate on the whole eco-system? Or do they want to be successful as console manufacturers?

Yeah, this is the weird part. Like, you're trying to build a house without a foundation if you're creating an ecosystem while not already having a solid brand. They really needed to fix their console business and get a steady stream of games releasing before they ever considered even creating an ecosystem. The complete lack of commitment is just killing the brand.

 

[Bragr]

I am amaze to see some Xbox fan comment. When it's management it self is not invested in the Xbox brand than why are you?

Your only reason to Purchase xbox at this point is that you do not like Sony due to your own personal reason as simple as that.

What are you talking about, where the hell did you get that he's not invested in the Xbox brand? talk about missing the point.

 

[Sethbacca]

Nintendo is different, their brand recognition allows them different opportunities than Xbox got.

Are you implying that Microsoft has no brand recognition because.... wow.....

 

[Taddypole]

I have to agree with him on this with digital games being so huge these days people are locked in to their console of choice. Also besides the 360 Gen has all 3 console makers ever done well

 

[FunkMiller]

I have to agree with him on this with digital games being so huge these days people are locked in to their console of choice. Also besides the 360 Gen has all 3 console makers ever done well

Ah yes. That's why the Nintendo Switch was a massive failure, because it didn't have a digital library, and gamers were locked into a different console.

- oh no, wait...

 

[jasondefaoite]

Paul Thurrott's take is certainly interesting ...

Redfall Proves that Microsoft’s Xbox Strategy Works

Here's why: Redfall isn't just available to purchase, it's also available via Xbox Game Pass and PC Game Pass, and that means that I can just install the game as part of the subscription I'm already paying for. But it's also available via Xbox Cloud Gaming, a perk of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate, and that means that I don't even need to install the damn thing to find out if it's worth bothering with or not: I can just stream the game, semi-instantly, on my Xbox, PC, or other devices, and find out for myself.


And that, folks, is the freaking point, the reason why Microsoft's---Phil Spencer's---Xbox strategy is working. Because this game is available via so many entry points, each more frictionless than the last, I can as a gamer and a consumer more easily evaluate and play this game in the manner I prefer. I don't have to just throw $70 at some retailer and buy the thing outright, only to discover that maybe it is the dog that reviewers think it is.


And maybe it is. I don't care either way. I'm just glad that Xbox Game Pass exists. Instead of paying $70 and then discovering that maybe I just wasted my money, I can pay $10 per month for Xbox Game Pass. And if this is the only game I play for the next six months, guess what? I still come out ahead. But the point of Xbox Game Pass is that I have hundreds and hundreds of choices. So I win either way.


Put simply, Redfall doesn't betray a weakness in the Xbox strategy, it highlights its strengths.

It's ok folks. Microsoft are just releasing a garbage game or two to showcase the advantages of Game Pass.

 

[HTK]

I'm really curious now if we're even going to see an Xbox Series X Pro version of the console?

 

[Taddypole]

Ah yes. That's why the Nintendo Switch was a massive failure, because it didn't have a digital library, and gamers were locked into a different console.

- oh no, wait...

lets not forget that Nintendo has never lost the portable market, please choose a better come back

 

[FunkMiller]

lets not forget that Nintendo has never lost the portable market, please choose a better come back

Heh heh. No. I don't think I will. Nintendo recovered from a disastrous console generation, with a console that sold extremely well because of the first party games it put out on it. And Switch has sold vastly more than the 3DS.

This guy goes into it in depth:




Essentially, the Switch proves beyond all reasonable doubt that a console can succeed on its first party exclusives. And that it doesn't matter what other consoles gamers might have invested their time and money into - or how big their digital library with that other console is.

If you make the games, gamers will buy your console. Phil seems incapable of accepting that. And that's why they're in third place. And wil stay there while he's in charge.

 

[Eiknarf]

“Even if our restaurant had great food and great word of mouth, people aren’t gonna eat at our restaurant”

-said nobody

 

[BlackTron]

Nintendo is different, their brand recognition allows them different opportunities than Xbox got.

Nonsense, when Xbox showed up Nintendo was already an established brand, and they stole their thunder, starting from scratch.

Xbox has brand recognition with IPs like Halo as well, but they don't use them as wisely. That's on Xbox, not because anyone else has some kind of "advantage".

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

Your looking at it Short term. If Microsoft win the leader subscription model because they buyout half the gaming companies and somehow beat Sony and take over most market share .Sony might have to be forced to to put Xbox game pass on their console to please fans so they keep buying their console. Now so far its not happening because we haven't seen these eventual buyouts and the effects it could bring but in 5 years we could see it.

I think Sony would become a third party first. And game pass needs the same thing Xbox does. Better games.

Microsoft already has a lot of studios, they have money, the problem is in how they manage them.
Throwing money on the problem is not working, buying more and more of the industry doesn't seem to be working either.

 

[jroc74]

They made the Series S...and yet Phil talks about not being able to compete because ppl won't sell their PS5.

....then wtf is the Series S for.... I cannot believe they made a $299 console hoping ppl would sell their PS5's.

Do ppl really think Nintendo expect users to sell their PS5's or Series consoles...for a $199-$350 Switch?

 

[DeepEnigma]

"It's just not true that if we go off and build great games, all of a sudden you're going to see console share shift in some dramatic way."

He either wants out of Xbox, or is on some pity-party PR offensive to help the Activision merger through.

It's the new psychological marching orders PR game.

We went from MS doesn't need console sales to Xbox doesn't need good games.

hes not stupid, hes saying what needs to be said while the activision takeover is still trying to go ahead, hes ticking those PR boxes to sway the regulators.

Yet the reason for denial by the CMA had nothing to do with current year, but the next 10 in the cloud infrastructure and who currently owns 70% of that industry.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Can you just imagine the amount of drool and slobber that had to have been running out of him as he pecked away at his keyboard for this gem…

Bless his heart.

I thought that loony had switched to PS?

 

[Kacho]

Timdog tweets always read like he’s having a stroke.

 

[GermanZepp]

Well i'm late to the party, can't care less for MS corporate strategy, but if i was a Xbox ower i would be pist, that statement it comes out as "Do not expect good games cause at the end of the day that dosen't give us and market edge'

 

[Evil Calvin]

Maybe I missed it, but did anyone flat out ask Phil if they play tested the games and just didn't see ANY bugs? Why they greenlighted a buggy game at all?

 

[Bragr]

Nonsense, when Xbox showed up Nintendo was already an established brand, and they stole their thunder, starting from scratch.

Xbox has brand recognition with IPs like Halo as well, but they don't use them as wisely. That's on Xbox, not because anyone else has some kind of "advantage".

I know people are going around using this argument because benji sales mentioned it, but he glossed over things and simplified it and it's not a good example IMO.

I agree that BOTW, Mario Kart 8, and Mario Odyssey were a triple-combo from hell that did wonders for Nintendo in 2017, but to be able to deliver that, you need a few things in place that Xbox didn't have.

- The market at large thought the Wii-U was an upgraded Wii. It was the worst branded big-three console ever and is hard to compare anything to.
- Even so, the Nintendo games themselves sold fine, even on the tiny install base, this shows how incredibly strong those franchises are. They just needed a different console to thrive on.
- Halo and Gears, the big Xbox franchises, got absolutely decimated during the Xbox One lifecycle, they were not console sellers anymore.
- Xbox's studios from the 360 era degraded during the Xbox One era and lost a lot of talent and momentum.

Xbox did not have big games to push Xbox Series S/X. And I know that you would answer with: "They need to have a higher standard, it's on them if they can't make better games" or something like that. But the truth is, the Xbox studios are not on the level of Sony Santa Monica or internal Nintendo studios. Those studios took years and years to become who they were, you just don't put together studios that can make 95+ games out of nothing. It's a long process and Xbox had nothing like that, the prime-era early 2000s Bungie was the closest to that they ever had.

Imagine this, a huge triple-A game usually takes 4-5 years, so to have any sort of gigantic transformative Halo or Gears game ready for the Series consoles, Phil and Xbox would have had to build top-tier studios in 2014 or 2015. That is when Phil Spencer took over. And even then, that they would be able to build top-tier studios on that scale and that their first game would be a 95+ game, is not realistic.

Even if he somehow managed to put together a top-tier studio in 2015, they would likely just be done with their first game around these times, to be honest. The point is, Xbox lost their capability to build the sort of Halo games they needed when Bungie left, and Gears had ran its course. So his point that Xbox would struggle to out-console Playstation and Nintendo in 2020 with the Series X/S is likely the right take, but it's a stupid thing to say in public.

 

[Bragr]

Well i'm late to the party, can't care less for MS corporate strategy, but if i was a Xbox ower i would be pist, that statement it comes out as "Do not expect good games cause at the end of the day that dosen't give us and market edge'

This is not what he said at all. You can expect good games.

I don't understand why everyone is willfully twisting his words. I suppose it's another example of social media getting people to jump on fake narratives because it's more fun to hate.

 

[Three]

Paul Thurrott's take is certainly interesting ...

Redfall Proves that Microsoft’s Xbox Strategy Works

It's ok folks. Microsoft are just releasing a garbage game or two to showcase the advantages of Game Pass.

Honestly that's not too far from the truth. They can do this and most people like himself wouldn't care. They would remain subscribed thinking it's low cost.

In this scenario/model "any publicity is good publicity" kind of works for them too.

 

[Justin9mm]

There you have it from the horses mouth. Phil Spencer just admitted Xbox has no games and seems like they aren't really planning to have much to fight back at Sony's 1st party releases.

 

[Jerm411]

I thought that loony had switched to PS?

See he’s one of these grifters that champions XBox to the hills and is a full on console warrior *BUT* he also owns a PS5 and plays on it, I’ve seen him talk about it.

I’m like…come on man lol…

 

[kirby007]

duh have you seen an apple consumer switch away?