2 Slice Toaster
Member
Must be alot of people confused about the artistic intent of the character design.
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George Kamitani responds to Kotaku
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
Must be alot of people confused about the artistic intent of the character design.
partyphone
Banned
oh no it's only an opinion. i have been bested.
Jathaine
Member
Not that my intent was to "defeat" you. But if you want to look at it that way, yes.
I just wanted to correct you because you stated that an opinion literally was truth.
Let me just put those two posts together (a minute apart).
Because it suggests that it's what they think is going to sell to people. It might have been unfair for Jason to say that George K was a fourteen year old boy for drawing those characters, but I'd say that Vanillaware is acting as if their fanbase are fourteen year old boys that will get excited at anything with titties on it.
And it reflects even more poorly on the community when they are willing to defend it and ignore everything wrong with it.
Of course, the problem is that the whole "EVERY CHARACTER IS EXAGGERATED" excuse is bullshit when a two of the six characters are not even remotely exaggerated, one is exaggerated but is reasonably proportioned, one character is exaggerated but is given reasonable covering, and the other two characters in question are exaggerated, poorly proportioned, and are disgustingly designed.
Delusibeta
Banned
The problem with the design argument in this game is that pretty much everything is exaggerated to absurdity.
Look at that extraordinary thigh physics.
Look at that extraordinary thigh physics.
or it'll continue to provide examples of how completely ridiculous the arguments in favor of things like this really are and the crazed supporters of designs like this will be marginalized more and more
you know, either way
Knux-Future
Banned
sarcasm does not help your cause either....
antagonizing people tend to make them block out any good you say and onyl focus on the negatives.
This goes for both "sides" and it is why this thread is garbage and only turns into one-up manship over and over again...
I'm not wasting my time today...
Let's just agree to dissagree, stop using loaded words like sexism and stop insulting each other.
That would have prevented this whole ordeal.
antagonizing people tend to make them block out any good you say and onyl focus on the negatives.
This goes for both "sides" and it is why this thread is garbage and only turns into one-up manship over and over again...
I'm not wasting my time today...
Let's just agree to dissagree, stop using loaded words like sexism and stop insulting each other.
That would have prevented this whole ordeal.
You know I apologized for calling Kamitani a 14-year-old in my story on Tuesday, right? It was a mistake. I will continue to make mistakes, as will you, as will everyone else who is a fallible human being. You are welcome to remember my mistakes. I certainly will. And I'll learn from them, and use them to try to make myself better.
The problem with the design argument in this game is that pretty much everything is exaggerated to absurdity.
Look at that extraordinary thigh physics.
so if they had wanted to include a black character it would have been ok to make his lips and nose really huge and dress him in a grass skirt with face paint and ooga booga movement animations
because they're just exaggerating everything which makes it OK, right?
LightofRohan
Member
Why focus on woman though? Why not strive for the betterment of game stories/characters in general? That's one of my biggest annoyances with this argument, the assumption that games are developed enough that the only flaw in their stories/character development is how females are portrayed. That's one aspect and it would be nice to have more interesting developed female characters, but that goes with every character and plot device as well.
People forget how damn young this industry is and acting like the standard is set in stone is ridiculous. It's a fluctuating dynamic industry and each generation it is constantly developing ten-fold, focusing down and harassing developers over solely female characters should be a subset of the industries progression, not the focus.
It's what also bugs me when people focus on characters from decades ago. You can't fault an immature mindset in an industry that was at an infantile stage. There was no agenda trying to be pushed or some misogynyst declaration, it was the industry trying to take its first steps. We can focus on the betterment of it's nature without having to bully developers on one particular subject.
Delusibeta
Banned
lol, tone argument, nice.
The problem with the design argument in this game is that pretty much everything is exaggerated to absurdity.
Look at that extraordinary thigh physics.
That is absolutely disgusting and highly offensive to those with elephantitis. I don't have elephantitis myself but I just know it's offensive to those that suffer from it.
Knux-Future
Banned
what is wrong with the design? She has big tits and is posed in sexy ways. Is that alone bad.
fuck it.
this is the song that never ends.
There's still a massive difference between the exaggeration of the dwarf and the fighter and the exaggeration of the sorceress and the amazon.The problem with the design argument in this game is that pretty much everything is exaggerated to absurdity.
Look at that extraordinary thigh physics.
And then you have the wizard and elf being pretty unexaggerated.
partyphone
Banned
Her breasts are huge, mostly exposed and they flap around like balloons and the character is generally depicted like a pin-up model:
This character looks more at place in a burlesque club than a battlefield. And the problem is the prevalence of these kinds of characters. And we have to point it out every time. Because if you can't single out this game than what game can you single out? Also it's getting a lot of attention because there's an advertising push so the awareness of the game is relatively high right now and the design of the sorceress is especially egregious.
also this is probably the best loli thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=515852
i don't think this phrase means what you think it means
because they are female and male?
anyway sorceress is nothing new on Kamitani art style, i don't see why it's a problem now
well yeah, kamitami isn't really aiming at coherence. but it's a videogame, who cares? dwarf and amazoness are almost naked too
partyphone
Banned
lol not understanding what a tone argument is
Jathaine
Member
Only if the folks at VW believe that this is something that would necessarily appeal to fourteen year old boys.
You may wish to actually read Kamitani's response to Kotaku. They are not acting as if this is the case, they are not insulting their fans. You are.
guffaw, why don't you read the Geek Feminism Wiki NERD
terribletwo
Member
if my mom walked in on me playing this I would be mighty embarrassed
I've read what Kamitani said and he really doesn't prove me wrong.
He outright says that the game wouldn't stand out (re: sell) unless he did something to make it stand out to the public. That he defaults to hypersexualized women is really damning.
Gender roles in gaming and gender equality in the industry are topics worth discussing, but when your approach to the topic is one that headlines with vitriol, you aren't trying to create discussion, you want the controversy. Yet, there is faux-surprise to the venom that Kotaku is receiving for equating people that like Dragon's Crown with sexual deviants and 14-year old boys.
The venomous response is a reaction to the article posted. It's like when the article about Kamiya being clueless was followed up by a shot back and all Luke Plunkett could respond with was "Did you actually read the article?"
Don't post shitty hyperbolic click-bait and not stand behind them. When you make insults into headlines, you are saying that is the topic of your article. That is the point you hope to get across.
Calling this artist a 14-year old was the foundation this article was built on. You had the integrity to approach a serious topic through the lens of the opposition being immature, 14-year old boys.
The entire article is flawed when you use those tricks. You created the venom. You are no better than any of the people who post drive-by insults to important people on Twitter. Gawker's business plan relies on this brunt approach to headlines based on its entire existance. Don't act like Kotaku is somehow in the right or has any more academic value than a detailed forum post.
The venomous response is a reaction to the article posted. It's like when the article about Kamiya being clueless was followed up by a shot back and all Luke Plunkett could respond with was "Did you actually read the article?"
Don't post shitty hyperbolic click-bait and not stand behind them. When you make insults into headlines, you are saying that is the topic of your article. That is the point you hope to get across.
Calling this artist a 14-year old was the foundation this article was built on. You had the integrity to approach a serious topic through the lens of the opposition being immature, 14-year old boys.
The entire article is flawed when you use those tricks. You created the venom. You are no better than any of the people who post drive-by insults to important people on Twitter. Gawker's business plan relies on this brunt approach to headlines based on its entire existance. Don't act like Kotaku is somehow in the right or has any more academic value than a detailed forum post.
LightofRohan
Member
Well try not to vilify the artist and creators who are developing artistic impressions that they know and are comfortable with. Why not encourage those that are doing what you think is right, not in terms of solely woman but for characters in general? Developers can do a lot more with positive acknowledgements and people identifying with what works, instead of berating those that do it wrong.
You aren't helping the industry grow by drawing out a giant list of WHAT NOT TO CREATE, instead of encouraging "healthier" artistic designs. If an artist/designer does something you feel is unsatisfactory with your ideology, then yes call them out on it, but do so in a progressive manor. You are a 'journalist' do your part in bettering the industry, not damning those that don't fit your vision.
Knux-Future
Banned
That's another thing...
prevalence of these characters? Or they'll use tits to sell.
Have you guys been paying attention lately? DOA bombed. Hell the few weird pervy japanese games that focus solely on giant tits...don't sell well at all. Tomb Raider changed Lara's design for the reboot.
and even then...the Sorceress's design is so out there that nothing else is really like it currently.
You all are acting like every single game has a design like this. Some do. Sure but those games also have the issues of context. Context is what makes somethin sexi...
'
nononononononono
I'm done. I am seriously repeating myself.
I'm glad Jason realizes what mistakes he has made and how he will improve..Good shit.
peace,
You didn't read it right. It would have stood out withing the type of art. Elves, Witchs and Knights have been done before...
also i doubt he expects this sell much anyway..this is a passion project for him anyway
But whatever...see what you want to see I guess....different points of view and all that.
prevalence of these characters? Or they'll use tits to sell.
Have you guys been paying attention lately? DOA bombed. Hell the few weird pervy japanese games that focus solely on giant tits...don't sell well at all. Tomb Raider changed Lara's design for the reboot.
and even then...the Sorceress's design is so out there that nothing else is really like it currently.
You all are acting like every single game has a design like this. Some do. Sure but those games also have the issues of context. Context is what makes somethin sexi...
'
nononononononono
I'm done. I am seriously repeating myself.
I'm glad Jason realizes what mistakes he has made and how he will improve..Good shit.
peace,
You didn't read it right. It would have stood out withing the type of art. Elves, Witchs and Knights have been done before...
also i doubt he expects this sell much anyway..this is a passion project for him anyway
But whatever...see what you want to see I guess....different points of view and all that.
just explain that the whole game is exaggerated like that and she'll be ok with it
ShockingAlberto
Member
You're talking about the tone on the muscles right ???
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Yeah, I saw. Apologies, my last comment came off more negative then I meant, I should have phrased it better.
What I meant with the setback comment refers to the difference in this instance between me making a mistake and you making it, is the difference of power between us.
You're a paid journalist writing for one of the biggest video game news sites in the world, I'm a random forum poster. There's an onus on you to be held at a higher level of quality of discussion and communication in your articles.
Which is what I was referring to with the setback aspect of your original article, which may be used as ammunition for 'loltaku' comments and the like down the road.
But as you said, we do all learn from our mistakes. Which can hopefully be used for the betterment of ourselves and the industry.
Ridiculousness is subjective. No one's (at least, I hope not) saying that the Sorceress is the epitome of game design and should be emulated in every future game release.
Taking her away as an option due to some perceived sexist connotations simply due to purely physical characteristics leading to feelings of discomfort is what people are disagreeing on.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Sounds fair. Some us think that you have the heart in the right place, so keep doing what you do, but learning about this...
SolidSnakex
Member
He means that the designs would look generic if he didn't do something to change them. Whether you like these designs or not, they're some of the most unique designs in gaming. So he did his job. Again, you might not like them, but no artist is going to make something that everyone likes.
Can you explain what the difference is?
partyphone
Banned
Have you been paying attention? I spent like 2 minutes on this post:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=55644388&postcount=508
I can go on and on and on and on posting characters like those. It is trivially easy.
My mom approved of Bayonetta.
Knux-Future
Banned
Like 3 of those games are from the same dev. That Lara design has been changed. And Samus?...really? Prior to Other M (oh lawd) she was the best Heroine in fiction almost
and then there is this design (not repeating myself again).
So yeah go ahead attack Bioware form random ass shots and poor costume design in a "realistic" esque worlds. I won't stop you...because there is no context for that.
how is it an excuse when that is the artists intent in the first place, the only non exaggerated character that i've seen is the wizard, the elf as really thick legs and waist, the fighter as a really thick chest and arms with normal looking legs, the dwarf is muscular as hell with a huge beard and then we have the sorcerer with huge boobs and ass and amazon with an exagerated muscular build, this is nothing more than design choice.
Just because Vanillaware decided to exagerate a characters features does not mean they think the fanbase are fourteen year olds, and how does it reflect poorly on a community willing to defend an artist that gets his design choices questioned by people that see some issue were there is none.
Those two male characters are heavily exaggerated (especially the dwarf) but they are still done in a way where their bodies still seem to be proportional and aren't trying to play up the exaggerated features.
Meanwhile, the amazon and the sorceress both have exaggerated breasts, asses, and thighs, but everything else is super tiny and their poses are all based around the best ways to show those assets off.
And, again, the exaggeration argument really doesn't play when the other two characters aren't all that exaggerated.
radios shipping overview
Member
Not really, but people are still using the opportunity to air their personal grievances and defend against bogeymen.
Because the weird sexualization that happens in character design in the gaming industry isn't something that just needs to be swept under the rug like that.
Dragon's Crown is only a single game guilty of it and we really need to start holding designers more accountable for what they do.
HoodWinked
Gold Member
basically fuck kotaku
Jathaine
Member
i think i reached my limit, we're on a loop anyway. i'm gonna play the shit out of this game, with all the characters.
see ya!
Devolution
Member
It will probably just be buried like so many of the arguments that are accusatory or trollish statements.
SolidSnakex
Member
It's works perfectly considering that they're exaggeration based on established looks for those character classes. What exactly would you exaggerate on and elf or wizard? Of all the character types they're probably the most normal looking. So in the game they also look normal.
This article (still the best article about DC's art) actually gives a very good rundown on exactly what inspired different designs in the game
http://art-eater.com/2013/03/from-m...ragons-crown-trailer-is-full-of-epic-homages/
Hopefully Kamitani has seen this article so he knows that there are plenty of people that love his art and don't want to see anything about it changed. He's a breath of fresh air in an industry that's become far too obsessed with realism.
He has.
Devolution
Member
Yeah well my imaginary girlfriend didn't.
looking at the 2 picture on his facebook profile i'd say we're safe.