The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but I don't think the piece in question qualifies as journalism.
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George Kamitani responds to Kotaku
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but I don't think the piece in question qualifies as journalism.
That's not what I said. You're taking my words as if they apply to all situations. Each perceived problem or issue is different.
This one is a non-issue. So in this case, "journalism" (calling Jason's work journalism is a stretch by the way) shouldn't have happened.
LightofRohan
Member
Nice idea, but you kind of set it up so she had to say something negative about it. "This is what the nerds on the internet are defending!!!!" That doesn't really leave an unbiased grounds in which to judge.
Also yes, that concept art depicted is ridiculous, but perhaps more context of it with the other characters or in the game would give it more substance for which to judge. It's a strange ultra exaggerated art style that is definitely unappealing to most, that doesn't mean it should NOT exist and be damned for being created. Which is the entire point of this argument...
Why shouldn't it have happened? Objectification in game design is a very nasty problem that people are still way to willing to overlook. Just because he went about it in a very bad way doesn't mean the intent or the reasoning for it doesn't have any merit.
But, of course, it might be a bit much to get into a discussion of authorial intent when we are already in a really nasty discussion of artistic intent.
That was pretty good.
I was going to say that people seem to be mistaking "strong independent women" with "any character that is able to win a fight, regardless of still being made from bottom to top only to please male teenagers", but this example seems a pretty good example of a female character being good in a fight.
And that's just watching this scene, without any context. I think I'll check this anime out eventually.
Hey folks - I was away from the computer most of last night, so I didn't have the chance to respond to any posts, but I've caught up on this thread and while some of the vitriol has been way over the line, there are some interesting points and thoughts here.
I don't know that it'd be productive to keep arguing about Dragon's Crown, but I do plan to double down on reporting about the way women are treated in both western and Japanese games and gaming culture. We in the media don't spend enough time discussing these broader issues (other than during drama like this), and I think it'd be useful to approach this conversation with the same thought and consideration we applied to video game violence.
If there are specific subjects you think I should look into or points you think I should consider, please e-mail me. jason@kotaku.com
I don't know that it'd be productive to keep arguing about Dragon's Crown, but I do plan to double down on reporting about the way women are treated in both western and Japanese games and gaming culture. We in the media don't spend enough time discussing these broader issues (other than during drama like this), and I think it'd be useful to approach this conversation with the same thought and consideration we applied to video game violence.
If there are specific subjects you think I should look into or points you think I should consider, please e-mail me. jason@kotaku.com
LightofRohan
Member
Really? It seems like every other thread on Kotaku is bringing up this subject one way or the other... You need more?!
Goddam.
i find it hilarious that the result of this thread is that there will be more reporting like this on kotaku
i guess something good came out of the bullshit after all
Well, it's not Kotaku's fault what kind of thread NeoGAF decided to make.
You know what.
Yes, this is something we need. If somebody that at least have some decent level of attention from the gaming community can keep a constant spotlight on how gaming still needs to grow up in regards to the way it treats women, then maybe we can actually make some progress towards improving things.
Delusibeta
Banned
If this is the sort of thing we would expect on Kotaku about women in video games going forward, then I would say that you're going to do an exceedingly crap job of it.
BA in writing from NYU.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Yep.
in this specific case, no, it doesnt have any merit
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Because Kotaku is not the same blog that have Ashcraft reporting about Japanese panties.
Jathaine
Member
It would be hard not to. But the question is, would this better approach be any good?
Talking about a relevant societal issue in an unintelligent manner is only marginally better than ignoring it altogether and can in many cases serve to exacerbate existing problems rather then provide worthwhile dialogue.
Mmk, thanks and good luck
Delusibeta
Banned
Honestly, between the "designed by a 14 year old" jibe and the "it's lolicon" post, I think he's poisoned the well, and aforementioned blunders will be brought up to dismiss his articles on the subject, at least for the next couple of months.
Why not. Just because Kotaku gave poor execution of it doesn't mean that there is no merit to a discussion about those characters and how they reflect upon the gaming community and industry at large.
Also, this.
Writing about it its great, I think no one beyond trolls have said otherwise, bringing it up and associating this issue with a developer that didnt deserved to is the main issue that people have with this particular articles.
I think its time you stop posting.
I think its time you stop posting.
I would hope that you have seen enough of our reporting to understand that the way we approach longform features is significantly different than the way we post video game trailers. Please do read this: http://kotaku.com/5976733/do-video-...-an-in+depth-look-at-everything-we-know-today
Knux-Future
Banned
Just don't insult people (even if you didn't mean too) and make sure its about more than just the design.
Those were the two missteps that took away from your intent.
Those were the two missteps that took away from your intent.
design alone can't be offensive and horrible?
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Ugh. Not this again.
You always say "we" but you only ever link to your own articles. Are you the only one who writes anything of value in your opinion?
Ignore. aeolist admitted to posting absolute junk in order to get a rise out of people in a previous thread.
partyphone
Banned
What again? Uncomfortable truths?
Knux-Future
Banned
Not really.
The only "issue" with this design is that she has giant boobs. That has been explained via the artist as to why and within the context of the world and other characters it makes sense. Context is important. This same design in a super serious world or a realistic art style or a world where she is the only exaggerated character is when it becomes problematic. Or if she was a weak timid girl who needed saving. Her animations show her to be confident and capable.
So by itslef a big boobed witch isn't harmful...especially within the context of this game.
This was a poor target. That's a big reason why people lost their shit over it....games like DOA (which I like) and other "creepy" Japan stuff...doesn't get this level of defense because in context stuff be fucked up.
Of course not. Check out this wonderful story by Stephen Totilo from Thursday: http://kotaku.com/the-extraordinary-mischievous-too-short-life-of-sean-481060252
yeah because if i were totally serious all the time you would actually think about what i'm posting and not just find a way to dismiss anything that doesn't completely agree with you like 99% of this thread
give me a fucking break
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
No, more like a eternal cycle of returning 10 pages before.
Knux-Future
Banned
You have been abrasive this entire thread tho.
So of course people are going to take pause when regarding your posts.
Jathaine
Member
It has to be able to be proven to be truth. I think the fact that this discussion is still going on can at least be taken as a hint that there's probably no proof.
Dude I love kitkat bars too
I just don't think you're actually capable of anything compelling, and I haven't been proven wrong yet.
JordanN
Banned
Please, please, can we get more people to read the definition of sexism and if it's going to be used in journalism, it must adhere to it.
What I've gotten from this thread is people like to use this term frivolously.
A character you don't like because the breasts are too big =/= sexist.
Same goes for objectification.
What I've gotten from this thread is people like to use this term frivolously.
A character you don't like because the breasts are too big =/= sexist.
Same goes for objectification.
so tell me how does an artists design choice to exagerate every characters features reflect upon the gaming community.
this is just a piece of journalistic trash piece trying to pass it off an artistic decision as offensive to someone
partyphone
Banned
That is absolutely not the only issue with the design. And okay it makes sense in the context of the world but so what? It's still a 14 year old fantasy wank material. Whether or not that's harmful is probably debatable although I'm not entirely convinced that it is. But that doesn't mean the character isn't a walking breast and ass fetish.
And have you not seen the various loli defense threads here?
partyphone
Banned
Or it can be taken that people are so annoyed that anyone would dare criticize their precious video games that they'll go out on a limb defend the grossest aspects of them.
lol tone argument. nice.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Actually I had to re-search the definitions for a bunch of words in this thread because I've noticed people seem to use terms with no explanation or clarification about why they're used or how they are important and fit into a given argument. So I had to look them up again due to losing all sense of their meaning due to repeated use in unclear and improper contexts.
partyphone
Banned
IF ONLY we would have been more respectful maybe more people would listen to our arguments.
oh wait
oh wait
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Well, if it's not productive to discuss any longer, I hope we at least learned something about opposing framing of design and the value of avoiding sensationalist articles.
While I'm glad that you understand the error of the '14 year old comment' and the title of the original article, posting that shit potentially sets you back a good ways. People don't tend to remember you for what you do right, they remember your screw-ups.
So because you assume (perhaps on past experience) that no one is going to listen to your opinion and automatically dismiss it, you've taken to being inciteful?
That's not going to help your cause at all either, and can only serve to give others further reason to set aside any reasoning you may have, because you're coming across as fanatical.
edit:
If it makes sense in the context of the world, why does its (potential and subjective) status as 'wank material' automatically make it harmful? And how is being sexist against women?
That's what we've been trying to discuss (albeit not well in some cases)
It has over 150,000 clicks. They would be stupid not to go back to the well. Make sure to include cleavage shots in the lead image to increase visibility and enhanced irony.
Jathaine
Member
That was actually your cue to provide some proof to back up your claim that it is "true" and not an opinion.
Hint: Its not possible because offensive and horrible cannot be quantified. They are simply opinion statements and nothing more.
Knux-Future
Banned
Then what is the other issue? The constant and only thing pointed out was that she has big breasts...is that alone a big deal or a bad thing? I'll ignore the 14 year old wank mateiral comment (which is funny because I guess once you turn 15 you no longer can find big breast attractive), let's just say it was made to appeal to men...is that alone a problem? You admit that it makes sense in context...so what the fuck is the problem? That is the thing I am getting at here...this game was a piss poor target for the whole equality issue (if anything this game has a body type of every kind albeit to the extreme...sooo) because just a oversexualized design is not a problem and no harmful...you have admitted as much...so why are we still talking about it?
as for those loli defense topics, the only one that hold weight is the Atelier games....which is also a design choice....but that is not my thing I'd probably stand more on the "yeeeah no" side for that. The other loli games....naw son.