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[Zen_Arcade]

Yeah by making them feel like they are women or gay.

Or insulting their penis size, the amount of sex they've had, or that they're poor. I could go on. There's various ways to make to get made fun of. Stop willfully ignoring things to try and prove your point. Everyone has complained about how much of a shithole Live has become. Most people don't even wear headsets anymore unless they're in a group chat because of how unbearable it is.

You're trying to make it seem like its just women and minorities that get berated on Live. It's disingenuous. Everyone gets their share of shit.

 

[dude]

Or insulting their penis size, the amount of sex they've had, or that they're poor. I could go on. There's various ways to make to get made fun of. Stop willfully ignoring things to try and prove your point. Everyone has complained about how much of a shithole Live has become. Most people don't even wear headsets anymore unless they're in a group chat because of how unbearable it is.

You're trying to make it seem like its just women and minorities that get berated on Live. It's disingenuous. Everyone gets their share of shit.

Yeah, listen, minorities and women get berated more in general, including in the gaming community. This discussion is absurd.

"I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group"

Peggy McIntosh

See my previous post for examples. For GTFO examples, "Get the fuck out of here faggot," "Why don't you kill yourself, Jew," " That guy has a Mexican accent. Go back to Mexico," etc. etc. Why not examine the whole toxic community and not just give women treatment as a special category? (b/c there's no money in it, probably)

Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying this shouldn't be made. I'd just prefer that the specific issue of harassment in online gaming communities be addressed without focusing on the subset of abused gamers that's "hot" at the moment.

Because women are a specific issue with much material on that can be applied to what's happening in video games. Should racism and homophobia be discussed and examined? Yes, but why does that mean we can't discuss and examine feminist issues?

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Yeah, listen, minorities and women get berated more in general, including in the gaming community. This discussion is absurd.

I never said they didn't. But to say everyone doesn't constantly get shit on Xbox Live is ridiculous.

One is painting a picture that all men do is make fun of women on XBL and one is painting a picture that everyone gets made fun of, and women get made fun of specifically because they're women. The first example implies more malice then the latter.

Not to mention he specifically said "Men don't get made fun of with gendered insults" and I gave him examples of how they do.

 

[dude]

I never said they didn't. But to say everyone doesn't constantly get shit on Xbox Live is ridiculous.

One is painting a picture that all men do is make fun of women on XBL and one is painting a picture that everyone gets made fun of, and women get made fun of specifically because they're women.

There's a huge fucking difference between "don't be a faggot, dude" or "OMG you faggot" coming from a probably heterosexual male to another probably heterosexual male and "get back in the kitchen bitch" coming from a man to a woman. How can you not see that?

Not to mention he specifically said "Men don't get made fun of with gendered insults" and I gave him examples of how they do.

The only gender related insult against men is by questioning their manliness or their heterosexuality. Both of which are actually offensive to women and queers.

 

[Giolon]

Because women are a specific issue with much material on that can be applied to what's happening in video games. Should racism and homophobia be discussed and examined? Yes, but why does that mean we can't discuss and examine feminist issues?

To answer your questions broadly (i.e. I don't agree with the positions you suppose on me in them): I don't think that the behavior of people on XBL and its ilk is a feminist issue. I think it's a human issue - and for that reason, I don't think that tackling it as a feminist issue is going to contribute anything to fixing the problem.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

There's a huge fucking difference between "don't be a faggot, dude" or "OMG you faggot" coming from a probably heterosexual male to another probably heterosexual male and "get back in the kitchen bitch" coming from a man to a woman. How can you not see that?

Because that's not all people say on XBL? Men try to insult other men by making fun of their penis size, lack of muscles, pretty much anything to make them feel like less of a man. Those are just as much gendered insults mocking a lack of masculinity as "Get in the kitchen bitch" is mocking someone for being a woman.

Because I don't think that the behavior of people on XBL and its ilk is a feminist issue. I think it's a human issue - and for that reason, I don't think that tackling it as a feminist issue is going to contribute anything to fixing the problem.

Also this.

 

[dude]

Because I don't think that the behavior of people on XBL and its ilk is a feminist issue. I think it's a human issue - and for that reason, I don't think that tackling it as a feminist issue is going to contribute anything to fixing the problem.

It's a human issue, and it's also a feminist issue. Feminism is wide reaching and its research is a field of its own. There's nothing wrong with applying this field to gaming. Problems are unique, that's why we discuss and examine things from many different angles and perspective.

Because that's not all people say on XBL? Men try to insult other men by making fun of their penis size, lack of muscles, pretty much anything to make them feel like less of a man. Those are just as much gendered insults mocking a lack of masculinity as "Get in the kitchen bitch" is mocking someone for being a woman.


Also this.

1. No they're not. Making fun of someone's penis size or lack of muscles is not mocking their gender, but the quality of it. it's implying that you are deficient in some way (which happen to be related to your sex or gender-role.) That's very different than telling someone to get back to the kitchen simply because of their gender.
2. Even if they were, they do not have the historical luggage as they happen between two privileged men.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

It's a human issue, and it's also a feminist issue. Feminism is wide reaching and its research is a field of its own. There's nothing wrong with applying this field to gaming. Problems are unique, that's why we discuss and examine things from many different angles and perspective.



1. No they're not. Making fun of someone's penis size or lack of muscles is not mocking their gender, but the quality of it.
2. Even if they were, they do not have the historical luggage as they happen between two privileged men.

1) Mocking the quality of someone's ability at being their own gender is completely a gender based insult. It's silly to say otherwise. It's akin to me making fun of a woman for having small breasts. If you saw that you'd definitely consider that a gender based insult.

2) You're right, they don't. But that doesn't make their intent any different then if they were making fun of a woman for being female or a black man for being black. I'm not trying to say that there isn't an issue specifically for women and for minorities, but there is a difference in claiming that only those people get berated and claiming that everyone gets berated but they specifically get berated for gender or color.

There's a difference in people being shitty specifically to a gender or race and people just being shitty in general.

Imagine a black man walking into a McDonalds and getting bad service from the cashier. The cashier has a scowl on his face, is barely listening to the black man and is slow to get his order. Then a white man behind him gets fast, attentive service with a smile.

Now imagine the black man walking into the McDonalds and getting the same treatment. Scowl, non-attentive and slow. Then the white man behind him comes in and gets the same service. Shitty, slow, unhappy service.

See the difference? In the first scenario the cashier is just shitty to the black person, which means he's probably racist. In the second scenario he's equally shitty to everyone. So it's not so much the fact that he's racist or sexist, he's just an all around shitty person. It also changes how you approach the situation. In the first scenario you question why he's possibly racist. In the second scenario you have to examine why he's disrespectful of all people. If you go into this question asking "Why are people so ignorant to women on Xbox Live?" you're not going to get your correct answer because you're totally discounting everything surrounding the sexist remarks and the context of them being in a pool of all kinds of insults to all different kinds of people.

Xbox Live is just all around a shitty person. There's no rhyme or reason to it. There's nothing to be figured out in this situation. It's random people, saying random things to strangers they no nothing about on the internet. There's no basis for why these people say these things, they're just shitty human beings. If they weren't doing it on a video game console they'd just be doing it on Youtube or anywhere else they can hide being a screen name.

 

[thesolidshark]

Interesting title, but a little too blunt.

If she gets the funds, I hope she goes over things that at least NeoGaf hasn't already heard. And I should read so much into her being an outsider from gaming....but I can't help it at this point. The kickstarter aspect doesn't even bother me at this point. Like a few people have said, people are quick to point out the problems, assuming someone else will find the solutions, outside of suggesting "don't do that".

How do we solve this? First there is a large section of the gaming consumers that need to grow the fuck up and get over it.

As idealistic as I like to be about these kind of things, no. Not until those making the games start making the changes.

Why not go to some prominent female developers and talk them about how they made it, what difficulties they may have had to go through that their male colleagues haven't and what positive experiences they've had? That's a different perspective, and it might also give other female gamers or aspiring developers more motivation to continue playing or to continuing pursuing their dream of making games. And it could open some developer eyes to things that they can change within their company to make it more comfortable for those incoming developers.

This is something that I'm surprised more people making videos and editorials aren't doing.



Zen_Arcade, since quoting your posts would be too big, I'll just say I like what you've got to say in your big posts (about XBL, and sexism in the game industry)

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

So you are who Leigh Alexander was talking about...

http://leighalexander.net/faq/

"Why do you sometimes mock ‘nerds’ and ‘gamers’ so virulently? Isn’t that the same kind of bullying you rail against?

A lot of ‘proud nerds’ are people who used the fact they were picked on for their interests as children to maintain, as adults and and fathers (they are most often privileged men, now) a ‘secret clubhouse’ that lets them victimize and oppress other participants — despite the fact games are now a multi-billion dollar industry, increasingly stigma-free, and desperately in need of the creative and professional participation of multitudes of new voices.

Self-identified nerds are often so obsessed with their identity as cultural outcasts that they are willfully blind to their privilege, and for the sake of relatively-absurd fandoms — space marines, dragons, zombies, endless war simulations — take their myopic and insular attitudes to “art” and “culture” with tunnel-visioned, inflexible, embarrassing seriousness that often leads to homogeneity, racism, sexism and bullying.

Nerds escaped high school. Some of them made millions making video games. Digital literacy doesn’t make you special, it makes you baseline employable. Fantasy is on mainstream cable.

Meanwhile, actual systemic oppression is punishing people not just where they wish to participate in games, but in every day of the rest of their lives. For many people, profound and violating inequalities show no sign of ease, and their “fellow outcasts” collude to reject them from the clubhouse when they try to join in .

My adult life in games and internet culture frequently involves brutal gendered language. Over video games. So if you want someone who feels sorry for you because your family grew up with a Super Nintendo, don’t ask me.

The fact you got a Game Boy for Christmas and liked it so much you stopped doing anything else doesn’t entitle you to a revolution. Your fandom is not your identity. Your fandom is not a race.

If you think it is, then you’re in our way, and the work I do specifically exists to dispossess you of your sense of relevance. If you don’t like it, good. I’m much louder than you. And we have an army."

And in the other thread we thought she was making too big a deal out of it. Maybe not, if she's met dozens of people like you.

I hope you noted that extract from the FAQ of Alexander actually backfired the last time you posted it.

 

[Delusibeta]

It will probably reach its goal, maybe hit $25k, then probably be released late and be fairly dire.

Honestly? I suspect the whole "SEXISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" drama is getting played out, and people are getting sick of 2-bit blogs going "DIS IS SEXIZT!!!!" and it'll all be buried by new console hype.

I would also say this will probably be a video version of Shit Xbox Live Players Say, or whatever that website is called. Certainly, I wouldn't be too surprised if, like Tropes vs Women episode 1, it'll be of little value. Hence, not backing. (Besides, I'm still on a Kickstarter boycott over that RPG camp scam)

(And on a similar note, where da funk did Tropes vs Women episode 2 go? We're about to hit the two month mark next week. It also breaks Making Stuff on the Internet 101: update regularly, dammit)

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

(And on a similar note, where da funk did Tropes vs Women episode 2 go? We're about to hit the two month mark next week. It also breaks Making Stuff on the Internet 101: update regularly, dammit)

why does it matter? Her videos are awful

 

[Lime]

Relevant: http://www.kotaku.com.au/2013/04/30-days-of-sexism/

And this: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/WaiY...eactions_to_a_womans_voice_in_an_FPS_game.php

and this: http://blog.pricecharting.com/2012/09/emilyami-sexism-in-video-games-study.html

 

[Kinyou]

It will probably reach its goal, maybe hit $25k, then probably be released late and be fairly dire.

Honestly? I suspect the whole "SEXISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" drama is getting played out, and people are getting sick of 2-bit blogs going "DIS IS SEXIZT!!!!" and it'll all be buried by new console hype.

I would also say this will probably be a video version of Shit Xbox Live Players Say, or whatever that website is called. Certainly, I wouldn't be too surprised if, like Tropes vs Women episode 1, it'll be of little value. Hence, not backing. (Besides, I'm still on a Kickstarter boycott over that RPG camp scam)

(And on a similar note, where da funk did Tropes vs Women episode 2 go? We're about to hit the two month mark next week. It also breaks Making Stuff on the Internet 101: update regularly, dammit)

To be honest I feel like this documentary should be more broad. There isn't just sexism going on in game chats. There's also tons of racism and homophobia. Just addressing one issue doesn't seem to me like it's enough. Whenever someone shows some that he's part of some minority group he or she will get attacked. Even I got some racial slurs thrown at me just because my Gamertag sounds vaguely Japanese

 

[CambriaRising]

She seems a bit ill experienced to be taking this on, but okay.

 

[RooMHM]

Don't fund this.

 

[denshuu]

I'm gonna start a Kickstarter for a movie about Black People In Gaming.

It'll be an hour of me and N'Gai Croal talking about how often 12 year olds hurl slurs at us over the internet. Then we'll talk about how great Skate from Streets of Rage is.

$20,000.

 

[Oersted]

Consumers getting sick about facing a problem their beloved products inhabit. Cooperations couldnt hope for better supporters.

 

[Zoe]

Don't fund this.

It will probably get funded.

 

[Lime]

Don't fund this.

Why? You don't think the issue deserves a documentary?

 

[Ban Puncher]

I ain't Kickstarting any more shit until I get my goddamn Pebble watch.

 

[Mesoian]

I ain't Kickstarting any more shit until I get my goddamn Pebble watch.

You should probably email them. Those things went out a WHIIIIIIILE ago.

I'm gonna start a Kickstarter for a movie about Black People In Gaming.

It'll be an hour of me and N'Gai Croal talking about how often 12 year olds hurl slurs at us over the internet. Then we'll talk about how great Skate from Streets of Rage is.

$20,000.

Super Best Friends beat you to it.

 

[RooMHM]

Why? You don't think the issue deserves a documentary?

I don't know. Don't you feel there are 3 announcements a day about women condition in gaming in general? Also what do we know about the authors of said documentaries?

 

[Mesoian]

Why? You don't think the issue deserves a documentary?

I don't think she's going to go deep enough into the issue.

It's one thing to record a log of sexist or racist slurs slung over xbox live. It's another to go ask Stephen Toulouse directly what Microsoft is doing about it. It's my general complain about all kickstarter documentaries; they don't go in deep enough. Even Indie Game: The Movie, which I rather liked, doesn't dive deep enough into Phil Fish's backstory because his past action villify his martyr image in that piece.

There are 20 things that I can think of off the top of my head that people could cover relatively easily that would shine a much more deserving light on sexism in gaming. But they don't. Because it's still harder than just playing video games and recording the results.

 

[Clear]

I'm still confused as to how its the "gaming industry's" specific problem that the internet is full of racism, sexism and general stupidity.

Its a cultural thing, and turning every human avatar in gaming into an androgynous non-racially specific blank isn't going to change a damn thing because the games aren't the source of the issue.

 

[Dark Octave]

I'm gonna start a Kickstarter for a movie about Black People In Gaming.

It'll be an hour of me and N'Gai Croal talking about how often 12 year olds hurl slurs at us over the internet. Then we'll talk about how great Skate from Streets of Rage is.

$20,000.

I'll be on there with you talking about how Barrett and Sazh are the only black people in the entire world. Why the Japanese gaming industry is obsessed with white people and what the hell happened to Adam in Streets of Rage?

 

[Mesoian]

I'll be on there with you talking about how Barrett and Sazh are the only black people in the entire world. Why the Japanese gaming industry is obsessed with white people and what the hell happened to Adam in Streets of Rage?

I'd join in that discussion about Japan's conception of non-white races and how that often holds back positive portrayals of people of any color in their games. I mean hell, in DMC4 they turn a tall black female character in a short white female character with a fingersnap.

 

[daycru]

that's cool. hopefully it actually comes out unlike Ms. Sarkeesian's tropes vs women in video games "series"

$160k, posts one video on March 7, radio silence since then

I, for one, blame the patriarchy.

 

[char0n]

So you are who Leigh Alexander was talking about...


"Why do you sometimes mock ‘nerds’ and ‘gamers’ so virulently? Isn’t that the same kind of bullying you rail against?

A lot of ‘proud nerds’ are people who used the fact they were picked on for their interests as children to maintain, as adults and and fathers (they are most often privileged men, now) a ‘secret clubhouse’ that lets them victimize and oppress other participants — despite the fact games are now a multi-billion dollar industry, increasingly stigma-free, and desperately in need of the creative and professional participation of multitudes of new voices.

Self-identified nerds are often so obsessed with their identity as cultural outcasts that they are willfully blind to their privilege, and for the sake of relatively-absurd fandoms — space marines, dragons, zombies, endless war simulations — take their myopic and insular attitudes to “art” and “culture” with tunnel-visioned, inflexible, embarrassing seriousness that often leads to homogeneity, racism, sexism and bullying.

Nerds escaped high school. Some of them made millions making video games. Digital literacy doesn’t make you special, it makes you baseline employable. Fantasy is on mainstream cable.

Meanwhile, actual systemic oppression is punishing people not just where they wish to participate in games, but in every day of the rest of their lives. For many people, profound and violating inequalities show no sign of ease, and their “fellow outcasts” collude to reject them from the clubhouse when they try to join in .

My adult life in games and internet culture frequently involves brutal gendered language. Over video games. So if you want someone who feels sorry for you because your family grew up with a Super Nintendo, don’t ask me.

The fact you got a Game Boy for Christmas and liked it so much you stopped doing anything else doesn’t entitle you to a revolution. Your fandom is not your identity. Your fandom is not a race.

If you think it is, then you’re in our way, and the work I do specifically exists to dispossess you of your sense of relevance. If you don’t like it, good. I’m much louder than you. And we have an army."

And in the other thread we thought she was making too big a deal out of it. Maybe not, if she's met dozens of people like you.

I'd happily make enemies with people like her and you: people so consumed by anger about their own problems that they dismiss anyone else's problems and experiences as virtually non existent. Someone who uses their own experience being bullied to bully people who also had problems only less so. Someone who fights to the death about injustice of stereotyping and treatment of such they've received but then in a heartbeat uses the same behavior against their opponents without a hint of irony and in fact with a smug self satisfaction that suggests they feel like they are just in using any means to fight who they think are "the enemy".

Believe it or not I'm actually pro feminist/equalist. I think "boys club" type behavior you seem to think I'm for is terrible and gives gamers a bad name and should be shunned/discouraged not just within the community, but whenever it exists, and will gladly throw in my support in pointing out/opposing real cases of this behavior. However, attacking groups with blanket statements and assumptions as both her and you now both have only alienates any potential allies in the groups you wish to change. And it's THAT which I was talking about, that exact attitude she displayed in her ego-stroking FAQ of "hahah people who disagree with me, they must be a bunch of LOOSORS! Cry to your mommy losers!" and you for knee-jerk assuming because I was against the bullying of gamers getting mixed into attempts to address them that I must be a "BOYS ONLY GURLS GET OUT OF MY CLUB AND GET 2 TEH KITCHAN" type.

If anyone is doing true harm the movement and image of feminists to the mainstream and gaming communities, it's people like the two of you. People more eager to fight and caricature and burn in effigy those who aren't 100% fighting on your side regardless of if they were actually allies just asking for some answers or moderation lest we become who we fight. And from her FAQ that's exactly what she has become, clearly, and maybe so have you.

 

[daycru]

I'd happily make enemies with people like her and you: people so consumed by anger about their own problems that they dismiss anyone else's problems and experiences as virtually non existent. Someone who uses their own experience being bullied to bully people who also had problems only less so. Someone who fights to the death about injustice of stereotyping and treatment of such they've received but then in a heartbeat uses the same behavior against their opponents without a hint of irony and in fact with a smug self satisfaction that suggests they feel like they are just in using any means to fight who they think are "the enemy".

Believe it or not I'm actually pro feminist/equalist. I think "boys club" type behavior you seem to think I'm for is terrible and gives gamers a bad name and should be shunned/discouraged not just within the community, but whenever it exists, and will gladly throw in my support in pointing out/opposing real cases of this behavior. However, attacking groups with blanket statements and assumptions as both her and you now both have only alienates any potential allies in the groups you wish to change. And it's THAT which I was talking about, that exact attitude she displayed in her ego-stroking FAQ of "hahah people who disagree with me, they must be a bunch of LOOSORS! Cry to your mommy losers!" and you for knee-jerk assuming because I was against the bullying of gamers getting mixed into attempts to address them that I must be a "BOYS ONLY GURLS GET OUT OF MY CLUB AND GET 2 TEH KITCHAN" type.

If anyone is doing true harm the movement and image of feminists to the mainstream and gaming communities, it's people like the two of you. People more eager to fight and caricature and burn in effigy those who aren't 100% fighting on your side regardless of if they were actually allies just asking for some answers or moderation lest we become who we fight. And from her FAQ that's exactly what she has become, clearly, and maybe so have you.

It's always the same thing. If you are a straight white male, aka the villain, having a complaint about anything makes you a petulant man child crybaby. After all, you're privilege. Anything that befalls you in life is due to your own incompetence, hatred, and malice. Randomly throw in "bigoted" as well. The slut shamed teen girl who kills herself in shame is a victim while we have no issue with virgin shaming socially awkward males. It is very easy to be sanctimonious when your bullying never counts "because reasons." Leigh Alexander is a bully who doesn't want anything fixed, she wants to yell at those she deems as lesser.

 

[K.Sabot]

I'm gonna start a Kickstarter for a movie about Black People In Gaming.

It'll be an hour of me and N'Gai Croal talking about how often 12 year olds hurl slurs at us over the internet. Then we'll talk about how great Skate from Streets of Rage is.

$20,000.

For a second I read your name as Dan Hsu and was like "I WOULD FUND THAT".

 

[maquiladora]

It will probably get funded.

Got a big boost from the articles yesterday I see. Looking likely to get funded now.

 

[hypostasis]

I just worry about her ability to convey nuanced analyses due to her prior lack of interest in the industry.

As if there is much nuanced analysis from video game journalists and others ensconced in the industry? Teehee.

 

[PshycoNinja]

I remember when I worked for a law firm instead of hiring a guy who had a proven work ethic and amazing client relations, the partners picked up a women who did very well in school and admitably had a silver tongue.

What ended up happening is her constantly taking days off work and losing us several huge clients that cost the firm hundreds of thousands of dollars. When I asked the partners why we didn't choose the guy who had proven track record they said they didn't want to look sexist and they had a quota they had to fill.

Morale of the story, people should just hire people that are qualified for the job instead of worrying about sex, religion or sexual orientation. This "problem" is a problem but when it starts affecting the product or production that's just taking it too far.

The industry doesn't tell women to "GTFO". There are plenty of women in the industry who do amazing jobs at what they do. Some do better than their male counterparts. However I disagree with skipping over someone because of sex. That's wrong. It's hard to get into the industry FOR EVERYONE. Not just women. Some people work for years to get into the industry to no success. That's just how the industry works. It weeds out the weak/less passionate and keeps the ones that prove that they work hard and are passionate at what they do. You're not being skipped over because of sex or whatever other reason. It's just genuinely hard to get in.

And to sexual harassment, it happens in a lot of professions and needs to be addressed by a large point and not just point the finger at the games industry. I've seen people in this industry (both men and women) be careful about what they say to other women in conversation or email because of this kind of thing. And it makes everyone in the workplace uncomfortable.

Points I am trying to make:

- The industry is hard to get into for everyone
- Sexual harassment doesn't just happen in the games industry and we shouldn't be pointing the finger at our industry alone
- As people we as a whole need to address this issue and not attack it in only one industry or one instance at a time.

 

[Mr Jared]

Don't fund this.

Thanks to you I've been inspired to bump my existing pledge up a tier. You're welcome.

 

[BIONIC-ARRRMMM!!]

"A fool and his money..."

Kickstarter should make this their slogan already.

 

[snap0212]

Thanks to you I've been inspired to bump my existing pledge up a tier. You're welcome.

For every dumb comment there's an equally dumb reply... or something like that.

Pledge if you like the idea. Don't pledge because you want to "show them". That's idiotic.

 

[Zoe]

Points I am trying to make:

- The industry is hard to get into for anyone
- Sexual harassment doesn't just happen in the games industry and we shouldn't be pointing the finger at our industry alone
- As people we as a whole need to address this issue and not attack it in only one industry or one instance at a time.

You're making the same mistake I made. When I saw "industry" in the description, I thought this would be about game companies, but it's not. It's about player interaction.

 

[PshycoNinja]

You're making the same mistake I made. When I saw "industry" in the description, I thought this would be about game companies, but it's not. It's about player interaction.

Oh I see. I read the description and thought that's what she was talking about.

I still stand by my position however .

 

[casabolg]

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[K.Sabot]

I'm waiting to see how Tropes vs Women turns out before I throw my money at another social activist project about gaming.

 

[Parallacs]

Thanks to you I've been inspired to bump my existing pledge up a tier. You're welcome.

Fund this.

 

[XenoJim]

When will this fad die? Anita was bad enough. She gained a lot of money and had nearly 8 months and the end product is nearly indistinguishable from her previous content. Now here comes another similar project to tell gamers to check their privilege or whatever buzz word is popular this week. I really doubt this person is going to shed light on anything given that she:

1. Mentions she's a casual
2. Brings up an incident that is old and was covered from here to hell and back as the genesis of her project
3. Uses the same screengrabs that have been passed around for years; literally years.

This would be a non-issue to me if it weren't for the fact that it's almost guaranteed that most gaming sites such as Kotaku will see this Kickstarter or those like it and decide it's time once again to tell gamers how terrible they are and how the only solution is giving Master Chief a pair of breasts and a heart breaking backstory.

 

[casabolg]

It's terrifically easy to point out a problem, no matter how large or small, but we need to move past this stage. I think we've done more damage than good staying on this stage as long as we have. What we should be moving towards is finding solutions and that goes farther than emotional pleas and villainizing who aren't 'progressive' - shaming and making villains of things or groups spreads further backlash. What is better and what ensures actual change and less reactionaries is empowering the group that's in need.

-Praise good representation and remind publishers what the female market is actually interested in
-Empower the female gamers without putting down any other group and show the benefits of supporting the female market

It's amazing how hard it is for people to do this. No doubt there will be backlash to this too but all change causes backlash, both bad and good. This ensures very little compared to what we have now, which is so overt that it makes people views the changes made from it as extensions of the group that caused it, Feminism.

Back in my day The Boss was never talked bad of for being a female. She was respected by everyone and her life story is one of the most emotional times in games. Now there is so much talk of feminism values and change that reactionaries do a lot of hate. On a macro level reactionaries will always happen so I can't blame anyone for this but the people who proposed and defended this change in such a poor fashion.

 

[K.Sabot]

I'm actually pretty surprised this isn't 80 billion pages by now.

Hope we don't force this issue too directly, else the internet will fatigue and forget.

 

[dukeoflegs]

I was confused by the title before I watched the video.

I thought it was about women in the gaming industry, which I would definitely back. Working in the industry for 5+ years I haven't seen a lot of sexism towards women at the studios I've worked for and would like to see what is going on out their towards these women.

But a documentary about girls who game and are affected by sexism just feels like beating a dead horse. I've read plenty of articles on gamasutra, kotaku, etc. and have seen plenty of videos online about these issues. It feels like gamers are already aware of these issues, maybe the documentary is targeted to non-gamers, and I'm just not the demographic they are selling to?

 

[XenoJim]

maybe the documentary is targeted to non-gamers, and I'm just not the demographic they are selling to?

It's actually pretty simple to tell if you're the demographic being aimed at by a kickstarter campaign.

1. Do you have money?
2. Are you easily bamboozled?

If you answered yes to both, you are the demographic. I think in total I've seen 3 or 4 projects on Kickstarter where I said to myself "Damn, that's a really good idea." 2 of those didn't get funded. Someone should remake Paper Moon and instead of selling bibles door to door Ryan and Tatum O'Neil can make kickstarter campaigns instead.

 

[char0n]

It's always the same thing. If you are a straight white male, aka the villain, having a complaint about anything makes you a petulant man child crybaby. After all, you're privilege. Anything that befalls you in life is due to your own incompetence, hatred, and malice. Randomly throw in "bigoted" as well. The slut shamed teen girl who kills herself in shame is a victim while we have no issue with virgin shaming socially awkward males. It is very easy to be sanctimonious when your bullying never counts "because reasons." Leigh Alexander is a bully who doesn't want anything fixed, she wants to yell at those she deems as lesser.

And this is a prime example of what I'm talking about: The attitude that people like her inspire is not one of guilt like I'm assuming she wants, but defiance where none may have existed. Straight white men DO have it better than LGBTs/blacks/women, and they DO have aspects of society that are consciously (or more often subconsciously) tuned in their favor. There are some very legitimate issues that women face in gaming that men do not, or at least not to the same extent. However, men and particularly geeks DO have issues of discrimination in society, and they DO have biases in culture and the power structure that are against them. They may have less of these, and they may be in many cases less severe, but they DO exist. When you address anyone and tell them that their real problems with their lives don't matter or aren't so bad so they should just deal with them because you have it worse so they should suck it up and only be concerned with you, it doesn't work. It doesn't make their pain feel any less to them. It doesn't make their situations feel any less unfair. It only positions you as the person who at best doesn't care about and won't represent their interests at any point and more likely will be against them/likely to impose more injustices on them in an effort to be "fair". It makes you seem to lack any empathy to your own plight if it happens in groups that you don't identify with and in facts makes you seem greedy. And when you fight them, they fight back. They might have a lot of the same ideals and goals as you claim to have, but you have acted as being against them. Feminists like LA take men and gamers who are open and even supportive of equality, treats them like the enemy if they don't blindly follow or ask for a less militant tone, and as a result are the main catalyst for the MRA movement: Men who are pro equality but feel that feminism is against them due to interactions with the likes of LA (and a bunch of mysogynist hanger-ons who gravitate towards anything they see as "fuck women"). It's the reason I don't identify with either group.

But instead of just pointing out problems, maybe someone should point out solutions. How about a tone that instead of saying "How DARE you feel wronged! I have been wronged in ways you can't imagine, so stop your bitching about your little pity party and either get in line or go crawl back under the rock you came out of!" instead goes "I understand you. I feel your pain, and have been wronged in similar ways plenty myself, and while I don't want to diminish or dismiss your wrongings at all, it has been worse for me and those like me. So instead of being against each other, why don't we work together towards ending these wrongs in general, starting with the most egregious and hurtful regardless of who they happen to, until no one has to suffer through the unfair stereotypes and expectations and discrimination we both know". I know some are wincing at the idea of in any way saying these forms of suffering are equivalent, but that's all they know, and you want to have them open to learning more rather than closing off defensively. And again, having less pain or struggle doesn't nullify it.

 

[RooMHM]

Thanks to you I've been inspired to bump my existing pledge up a tier. You're welcome.

I'm happily witnessing the power of influence I have over you.

 

[Lime]

I was confused by the title before I watched the video.

I thought it was about women in the gaming industry, which I would definitely back. Working in the industry for 5+ years I haven't seen a lot of sexism towards women at the studios I've worked for and would like to see what is going on out their towards these women.

But a documentary about girls who game and are affected by sexism just feels like beating a dead horse. I've read plenty of articles on gamasutra, kotaku, etc. and have seen plenty of videos online about these issues. It feels like gamers are already aware of these issues, maybe the documentary is targeted to non-gamers, and I'm just not the demographic they are selling to?

Did you read the description?

I am just a casual gamer, so I was shocked about a year ago when a friend told me about the abuse that many female gamers and other industry figures endure on a daily basis.

And the FAQ:

The experiences of gamers and of industry figures are so different. How will you tackle both subjects?

The goal of the film is not to group all women in gaming together, but rather to address the different problems they encounter. While I would never state that gamers and industry figures have identical experiences, I hope to tie in an overarching sense of exclusion when addressing these issues.