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[Geneijin]

Wtf? Nanako is "moe?" Now I've heard everything. Nanako is in no way presented as a character that is sexy or an object of affection in any way.

"Sexy" isn't moe nor what moe is, which is a fairly frequent misconception about moe. You do realize that moe describes a type of euphoria, right? Any fictional character can be an object of affection without any sexual feelings whatsoever. Nanako's moe in this case is like sibling love, or imouto moe. And no, not incest.

Interesting that doing any sort of google search for combinations of "moe" and "anime" or games, gives you a slew of sexualized images as results, yet you swear there is no relation to physical attraction.

Because it isn't. Sexually attracted and moe are two separate feelings, which you're conflating the two mistakenly.

Are there people who want to fuck moe characters? Yes. Does that mean moe = sex? No. Yet you're assuming so.

I agree that they're designed to appeal to a particular audience. My point is that Nanako simply isn't one of those characters. Just thinking some little girl is cute and loveable isn't at all a trait unique to anime, and especially not this sub-genre of anime. Images of cute, adorable little kids and creatures are all over Japan, and the world, really.

Moe isn't only a trait of "cute" and "lovable." That's one type of moe. As I said before, moe is a type of euphoric response to fictional characters.

You can't just claim that every young, cute character in a Japanese animation is "moe," because you want to comfort them, help them with whatever they want, just like you would your cute little sister in real life.

That's because one person wouldn't find "every young, cute character in a Japanese animation" moe.

Surely you can't be serious? Those animes exist, but "mostly" is far, far too broad of a term to be used here. The biggest animes that I am aware of are One Piece, Pokemon, Evangelion, and seasonal shows that get large followings like Natsume no Yuuchou. Some of other big ones my students like are Usagi Drop, and one about a girl who lives in France. None of these animes are harem/moe, and none of them feature a postman as a protagonist.

You do realize the girl in Croisee is considered a character who is moe, right? Same for Usagi Drop.

I wouldn't even think most people would call Haruhi moe.

She falls under tsundere moe.

Also I never claimed that all young, cute, girls in Japanese animation or "moe". In Persona's case, it is "anime" to the brim, her design is most certainly 100% intentional.

Yes, not everyone is "moe."

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

I think the biggest problem of this console gen for Japan is their insanely long game development cycles. That's what made them fall behind, in my opinion.

I don't think it's that Japanese developers lost creativity nor that western games are better. Seeing how the past Japanese franchises like Resident Evil, MGS, Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, etc. still sell really well in Japan and the west proves, at least to me, that Japanese games do still matter. It just doesn't help when it takes half a decade or more to release them.

Nobody wants to wait five years for a game. People are going to move on and find something else to fill that void. For the west, game development thrived so we moved along with it, while in Japan it was handheld gaming because development for those were quick and cheap.

I'm not disagreeing with the article, which is very well-written. But I think the biggest problem was long development cycles and that's what caused this shift in console gaming, for both Japan and the west.

 

[Castor Krieg]

I think the biggest problem of this console gen for Japan is their insanely long game development cycles.

But that's not the case for anyone except S-E. Most of Japanese developers make games for DS/PSP. Reveal in Famitsu in June/July, game ships in November. That's how it is for 90% of games, it's only S-E who can't put their shit together.

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

But that's not the case for anyone except S-E. Most of Japanese developers make games for DS/PSP. Reveal in Famitsu in June/July, game ships in November. That's how it is for 90% of games, it's only S-E who can't put their shit together.

I'm referring to console games.

 

[wildfire]

I think the biggest problem of this console gen for Japan is their insanely long game development cycles. That's what made them fall behind, in my opinion.

I don't think it's that Japanese developers lost creativity nor that western games are better. Seeing how the past Japanese franchises like Resident Evil, MGS, Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, etc. still sell really well in Japan and the west proves, at least to me, that Japanese games do still matter. It just doesn't help when it takes half a decade or more to release them.

Nobody wants to wait five years for a game. People are going to move on and find something else to fill that void. For the west, game development thrived so we moved along with it, while in Japan it was handheld gaming because development for those were quick and cheap.

I'm not disagreeing with the article, which is very well-written. But I think the biggest problem was long development cycles and that's what caused this shift in console gaming, for both Japan and the west.

Are their development cycles on average than Western Devs? I really don't think so. Namco and Sega churn out games as quickly as EA and Ubisoft. Square Enix is kind of sluggish but I don't seem them as slow as Bethesda or Valve.

I just don't see the dev cycle being a credible factor unlike other things that have been discussed so far.

 

[wildfire]

Shouldn't even dignify this kind of mindless drivel with reason or intellect. The narrow mindedness some exhibit is frankly astounding.

And that people use moe as a justification for flagging off the Japanese gaming industry is just silly. Some years ago, everyone in America was jerking off to naked renders of Lara Croft as Tomb Raider sold millions on the back (bust) if the west's polygonal Aphrodite. And now we have Americans claiming that moe is the downfall of Japan. Something in that logic is flawed.

I've also never, ever heard "洋ゲークソゲー". All the Japanese nerds I know like most Western games. Except Fable. They hate that one.

The greater focus on moe baffles me.

At first glance I thought the 1up article's main weakness was focusing so much page space to a topic they themselves considered to be irrelevant. But it's obvious they knew this would be such hot topic they dedicated their efforts to sniping everyone as being prejudgemental about what they think moe is and tried to explain what it is actually about.

Since moe is the major issue for being a dev in small companies this couldn't be avoided. It's a shame though that defining moe has been a more popular talking point than analyzing the overall picture of how japanese games are being made.

 

[ToxicAdam]

I think Japanese games get a bad rap from Western fans because they don't take into account all the games available on handhelds nor all the games that never make it to American shores. I think if you pulled back the curtain more you would see the variety and quality is still there, it's just not as pervasive as it used to seem.

 

[astroturfing]

all i can say is that i'm glad there has been many awesome Japanese and Western games this gen. if i think about my favorite games for the PS3, it's about 50/50. i love Demon's Souls and i also love Mass Effect 2, i love Oblivion and i also love Final Fantasy XIII (i really do). i love COD4 and i also love Vanquish. i love Flower and i also love Noby Noby Boy. i love LittleBigPlanet and i will certainly also love The Last Guardian... and so on.

i really hope Japanese developers stick around making unique, varied games next-gen too. and not just for handhelds..

the whole moe thing is weird though, i don't get it at all. since it's not for me i don't know what i can say about it... i do find child characters annoying as fuck though. (except when it's Team Ico heh).

 

[Terareflection]

Interesting article!

I would add that, in my opinion, there was also a cultural shift in japanese videogames. I'm oftenly whinning about that.

It seems to me that back in the 90's, videogames didn't look like anime. They had their own aesthetic, which was probably more universal, but especially, was unique and identical. Then i don't know why exactly, it had to move toward a more common low denominator aesthetic, more folklorish and local in its references. That's not specially a bad thing in itself, and i'm not even sure it's bad for economy outside japan, but it's certainly a cultural and demographic shift, probably toward a younger audience.

I would take just two examples to illustrate that.
_Final Fantasy went all anime with the 7, and never stoped to aim at pop culture and anime fashion since then. Why not, but it certainly lost some of its core mature audience in the process.

_King of Fighter, which was one of the strongest cultural element to me, back in the 90's, is now all about cosplay clothes, fancy colors and pop / dance / lolita whatsoever. What i'm saying is that, even if Neo-Geo era was not really for everyone, those games had a really particular style and impact, and related to our culture. Now, of course, anime relates a lot to my culture, as french people are one ofthe biggest manga readers in the world, but still, there was some kind of a cultural downgrade. It went from elegant jazz/classical music with dark setting to a pop fest. Thay may be nothing but it's actually symptomatic of a big shift for me.

I think videogames just became more mainstream and teen oriented in Japan, at some point, as it did in occident. But when that meant more war, soliders and dudebros in the west, it meant more moe and cosplay in Japan, thus a certain withdrawal in the end.

Huh, KOF is still the same as it has been, it just that Shinkiro left, so the art became more anime. The soundtracks is the same as well. Have you heard XI and XIII's?

 

[RedSwirl]

Here's how I like my anime. Get those freakish huge eyes, itty-bitty noses and catlike faces outta here

This is actually on Netflix Instant. Worth the time investment?

 

[rpg_poser]

I'm not American (thought my spelling of armour would be a giveaway), and my opinion is that its not an exclusively American problem. The politics of fear are evident as a social control mechanism across the developed world.

I'm not saying its propaganda either. Specifically why I find it concerning is because its making images of uniformed para/military figures seem "normal" and even comfortingly heroic.

Armed, body-armoured guys in urban settings, ironically enough, is not what our forefathers sacrificed themselves for in two bloody world wars.

There's too much war and not enough adventure in games these days, in my opinion.

I'm just saying.

QFT. Moving on to Moe: I seem to remember an TV show where a non-japanese was walking around a Japanese city asking people what Moe was. The best description I heard was "Fresh". Filtered through my western perspective, I can understand the appeal. Moe can go across gender or age. However, it seems the idea (like many ideas) has been changed and used by companies to make money, and Moe mixed with Sex makes money.

Not my money, though... My wife simply will not understand the concept and I would have to deal with severe repercussions of playing a game with cute little girls.

Guess I'll just do what I always do, wait things out until the few really awesome games filled with adventure which are released regardless of who develops them.

 

[FINALFANTASYDOG]

That's a weird and rather desperate analogy. Nice try.

It's difficult to find english resources proving my point but
If you are going to be so dismissive do me a favor and watch this quick cnn news report:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxf57loWkzQ

Do you really think thousands of people celebrating a wedding to a digital character with the musicians wearing bear suits are serious about the whole thing? Love Plus Plus is a ridiculous game(yet at same time has really solid game mechanics/ game play), This people are just thriving in the ridiculous of it all.

I suppose all the internet really thought snakes on a plane was a Oscar worthy contender too.

 

[NotebookJ2]

I suppose all the internet really thought snakes on a plane was a Oscar worthy contender too.

But SoaP was oscar worthy. They just didn't get it.

 

[charlequin]

Excuse me? The World Ends with You? Sold like shit in the West.

Actually, it outsold its Japanese total in the US.

 

[El Sloth]

Actually, it outsold its Japanese total in the US.

And didn't Square release a statement saying it outdid their total sales expectations? Or something like that.

I'd really love a sequel to that game.

 

[Warm Machine]

I think they fell behind technically because the PS2 was such a runaway success that they never had proper Direct X or Open GL engines ready to go. They wrote for an architecture that was great but not scalable to the modern era. Compounded by the shunning of PC development and little investment in the original xbox to get them moving.

Companies like Capcom saw the necessity of a modern pixel shader engine early and it paid off for them, keeping them current and extending them into the future.

 

[B-Genius]

Somewhere along the way, something went very wrong.

This reminds me of this:

Which is funny and all, but not too relevant.
The point is, if you are a Western gamer and you're worried about Japanese games, you shouldn't be. Because for every 100 games that stay in Japan and are full of content you are either afraid of, don't understand or otherwise condemn, there will be a game like Vanquish, or Shadow of the Colossus, or even Persona 4 that will succeed in the West and that you will be able to appreciate and enjoy.

Just because niche Japanese developers don't know how to (don't need to?) sell 'moe' games to the West - just because we don't understand (don't need?) 'moe' games - does not mean that Japanese games are lost on us as a whole.

 

[orioto]

Huh, KOF is still the same as it has been, it just that Shinkiro left, so the art became more anime. The soundtracks is the same as well. Have you heard XI and XIII's?

I heard plenty of dance / electro track in recent KOF, but i don't specially know for the last one.
And yeah Shinkiro left, then they choosed a ne direction, how is that the same thing lol.

 

[ssendam]

It seems that coding practices in general are not as cutting-edge in japan. Seen somewhere else:

http://www.tokyomuslim.com/2011/09/force-multipliers-and-japanese-programmers/
also see the comments in: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3046038

My hypothesis is that a lot of Japanese companies produce little new because they have people solving solved problems over and over again. This is probably because of their inability to assimilate newer frameworks with better communities that automatically solve many of these problems for them.

Maybe this is because the English language barrier. You have billions of English speakers and X% are good programmers. Even if 2X% of Japanese speakers were good programmers, you will never have the depth of talent needed to develop native Japanese language versions of computer languages & the community that goes with them. You are restricted to a subset of frameworks, good or bad, that you can explain to your Japanese unilingual boss. He probably is severely risk-averse and is too old to be familiar with current programming technologies and shortcuts. How do you get him to let you program in Python/Django when he is still using Excel as a datastore (a shockingly common issue in Japan!)

 

[SpaceDrake]

It seems that coding practices in general are not as cutting-edge in japan. Seen somewhere else:

http://www.tokyomuslim.com/2011/09/force-multipliers-and-japanese-programmers/
also see the comments in: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3046038

There's also the problem with getting skilled programmers in the first place; a lot of the top-flight guys want to get into robotics or other "practical" uses for their coding skill, and don't have nearly as much of an interest in games because it doesn't pay as well. There aren't really any "Carmack" examples for bright young coders to aspire to in the Japanese games industry, so fewer skilled workers gravitate there. I mean, even as far back as the 80s, Japanese devs were having to outsource the programming at times for a reason. And a lot of the other top-flight guys, like the dudes CF work with, don't really want to join established companies and stay indie or just do games as a side-project to their "real" job.

It feels like I should reply to a lot more of the OP and the thread (and yes, there are some parts of the 1UP piece I agree with, even if I disagree with the overall assertion and roll my eyes at them still misunderstanding moé), but that's a good note to start with.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

You know Angry Birds, some dumb guitar hero game, or some 3D top down crap that looks like it came from 1998 isn't what I call cutting-edge. Neither is the 10th rehash of the same FPS with no story and a mediocre single player either. I saw this coming when the best games in world were crap like Guitar Hero, like it was somehow better than Ico or Shadow of the Colossus or RE4. Same goes with the anime stuff I see on TV. I remember watching Robotech when I was little, now it's crap like Kickbutowski or whatever his name is. Like somehow midgets on skateboards that wear helmets are bad ass.

I think the difference is that most western people get more enjoyment out of screaming obscenities to people over an internet connection whilst playing the same game over and over for months on end where Japan actually value some kind of story or end goal to be in their games.

 

[Atomski]

You know Angry Birds, some dumb guitar hero game, or some 3D top down crap that looks like it came from 1998 isn't what I call cutting-edge. Neither is the 10th rehash of the same FPS with no story and a mediocre single player either. I saw this coming when the best games in world were crap like Guitar Hero, like it was somehow better than Ico or Shadow of the Colossus or RE4. Same goes with the anime stuff I see on TV. I remember watching Robotech when I was little, now it's crap like Kickbutowski or whatever his name is. Like somehow midgets on skateboards that wear helmets are bad ass.

I think the difference is that most western people get more enjoyment out of screaming obscenities to people over an internet connection whilst playing the same game over and over for months on end where Japan actually value some kind of story or end goal to be in their games.

Someones angry... also way to generalize. Have you not noticed all the awesome indie games coming out of the west these days? We are more than just GH and FPSs..

 

[Enosh]

You know Angry Birds, some dumb guitar hero game, or some 3D top down crap that looks like it came from 1998 isn't what I call cutting-edge. Neither is the 10th rehash of the same FPS with no story and a mediocre single player either. I saw this coming when the best games in world were crap like Guitar Hero, like it was somehow better than Ico or Shadow of the Colossus or RE4. Same goes with the anime stuff I see on TV. I remember watching Robotech when I was little, now it's crap like Kickbutowski or whatever his name is. Like somehow midgets on skateboards that wear helmets are bad ass.

I think the difference is that most western people get more enjoyment out of screaming obscenities to people over an internet connection whilst playing the same game over and over for months on end where Japan actually value some kind of story or end goal to be in their games.

yeah, those baka gaijin just don't know what good games are!

 

[charlequin]

It seems that coding practices in general are not as cutting-edge in japan.

The comment about language is so much more plausible than the ridiculous commentary about how Japanese companies have only bad coders or are lazy or whatever other racist nonsense people come up with.

The biggest change in software development in general (and gaming in particular) over the last decade has been the rise of frameworks, middleware, and other externals. Because of the systems complexity that any new project is dealing with, nobody accomplishes anything useful without making use of external code anymore, unless what they're doing is creating that external code for others to use. In gaming, middleware, licensed engines, and general-purpose toolchains have become vital for productivity on the current generation systems -- but Western developers have a huge advantage in working with these tools because they're (purely by the numbers) all going to be in English.

The distinct corporate environment definitely comes into it here too (being innately conservative is going to make it even harder for Japanese companies to catch up on this disadvantage) but I think the difficulty in accessing modern tools is definitely at the core of the problem.

 

[RedSwirl]

The comment about language is so much more plausible than the ridiculous commentary about how Japanese companies have only bad coders or are lazy or whatever other racist nonsense people come up with.

The biggest change in software development in general (and gaming in particular) over the last decade has been the rise of frameworks, middleware, and other externals. Because of the systems complexity that any new project is dealing with, nobody accomplishes anything useful without making use of external code anymore, unless what they're doing is creating that external code for others to use. In gaming, middleware, licensed engines, and general-purpose toolchains have become vital for productivity on the current generation systems -- but Western developers have a huge advantage in working with these tools because they're (purely by the numbers) all going to be in English.

The distinct corporate environment definitely comes into it here too (being innately conservative is going to make it even harder for Japanese companies to catch up on this disadvantage) but I think the difficulty in accessing modern tools is definitely at the core of the problem.

How would you say the emergence of internal middleware at Capcom, Square Enix, and Konami is responding to this problem? Also Epic's strong attempts to get UE3 into the Japanese market.

 

[Munin]

You know Angry Birds, some dumb guitar hero game, or some 3D top down crap that looks like it came from 1998 isn't what I call cutting-edge. Neither is the 10th rehash of the same FPS with no story and a mediocre single player either. I saw this coming when the best games in world were crap like Guitar Hero, like it was somehow better than Ico or Shadow of the Colossus or RE4. Same goes with the anime stuff I see on TV. I remember watching Robotech when I was little, now it's crap like Kickbutowski or whatever his name is. Like somehow midgets on skateboards that wear helmets are bad ass.

I think the difference is that most western people get more enjoyment out of screaming obscenities to people over an internet connection whilst playing the same game over and over for months on end where Japan actually value some kind of story or end goal to be in their games.

I take it you are an expert?

 

[Übermatik]

Lttt: Xenoblade says no.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I think the biggest problem of this console gen for Japan is their insanely long game development cycles. That's what made them fall behind, in my opinion.

I don't think it's that Japanese developers lost creativity nor that western games are better. Seeing how the past Japanese franchises like Resident Evil, MGS, Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, etc. still sell really well in Japan and the west proves, at least to me, that Japanese games do still matter. It just doesn't help when it takes half a decade or more to release them.

Nobody wants to wait five years for a game. People are going to move on and find something else to fill that void. For the west, game development thrived so we moved along with it, while in Japan it was handheld gaming because development for those were quick and cheap.

I'm not disagreeing with the article, which is very well-written. But I think the biggest problem was long development cycles and that's what caused this shift in console gaming, for both Japan and the west.

This.

I honestly believe this is the main reason for the outsourcing of Japanese titles and why capcom in particular favour 3d sprites over 2d.

A western dev can create a finished product (maybe not to same quality) within half the time a japanese dev can...even worse sell more doing so.

Japan has lot of problems going for them, but the amount of time it takes them to make a damn good game is one of the most significant for me.

 

[lastendconductor]

All I know is I'm playing Vanquish atm and it completely destroys all the other shitty bald space marine shooter games this gen is so proud of. The japanese still got it.

 

[pje122]

All I know is I'm playing Vanquish atm and it completely destroys all the other shitty bald space marine shooter games this gen is so proud of. The japanese still got it.

Pretty much... I personally believe Vanquish puts other third-person shooters like Gears of War to shame... truly a masterpiece...

 

[Terareflection]

I heard plenty of dance / electro track in recent KOF, but i don't specially know for the last one.
And yeah Shinkiro left, then they choosed a ne direction, how is that the same thing lol.

You have to tell me which KOFs have these dance tracks, it mostly just rock and synthesizers they have used in tracks since forever.

Also on the artwork, you're right, it is not the same thing. It's mostly Ogura trying to appeal to Otakus, there are some artists, like Hiroaki( KOF XI artwork) and Nona( KOF XI and KOFXIII), that have more stylized artworks, that aren't as bug- eyed.

 

[Wrekt]

Our games are as good as ever

rofl, good one.

 

[andymcc]

The comment about language is so much more plausible than the ridiculous commentary about how Japanese companies have only bad coders or are lazy or whatever other racist nonsense people come up with.

The biggest change in software development in general (and gaming in particular) over the last decade has been the rise of frameworks, middleware, and other externals. Because of the systems complexity that any new project is dealing with, nobody accomplishes anything useful without making use of external code anymore, unless what they're doing is creating that external code for others to use. In gaming, middleware, licensed engines, and general-purpose toolchains have become vital for productivity on the current generation systems -- but Western developers have a huge advantage in working with these tools because they're (purely by the numbers) all going to be in English.

The distinct corporate environment definitely comes into it here too (being innately conservative is going to make it even harder for Japanese companies to catch up on this disadvantage) but I think the difficulty in accessing modern tools is definitely at the core of the problem.

development teams within japanese studios are pretty restrictive about sharing tools among different teams too, right? even without using external systems, it seems that lack of corporate sharing would be hindrance on HD game development.

 

[Azih]

Mo-ay seems to be an incredibly creepy version of the feeling most people get when they look at cute kitten pictures.

 

[Enosh]

Pretty much... I personally believe Vanquish puts other third-person shooters like Gears of War to shame... truly a masterpiece...

you know, opinions

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

I think the biggest problem of this console gen for Japan is their insanely long game development cycles. That's what made them fall behind, in my opinion.

I don't think it's that Japanese developers lost creativity nor that western games are better. Seeing how the past Japanese franchises like Resident Evil, MGS, Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, etc. still sell really well in Japan and the west proves, at least to me, that Japanese games do still matter. It just doesn't help when it takes half a decade or more to release them.

Nobody wants to wait five years for a game. People are going to move on and find something else to fill that void. For the west, game development thrived so we moved along with it, while in Japan it was handheld gaming because development for those were quick and cheap.

I'm not disagreeing with the article, which is very well-written. But I think the biggest problem was long development cycles and that's what caused this shift in console gaming, for both Japan and the west.

Wow, this is exactly what I was thinking also. Western developers in my opinion are MUCH more proficient when it comes to development cycles. For every Japanese game that gets released, there are 10 Western titles that made it to the store shelves before them. That explains the very UNFORTUNATE trend of Japanese companies outsourcing all the time. I am dreading next generation for Japanese developers.

 

[Orayn]

So... Where does Dark Souls fit into this? It's an intense game that lacks the appealing simplicity of Mario or Zelda, it's got a strong Western aesthetic, and it has a lot of clout worldwide after the runaway success of its predecessor. To me, it seems that trying to sell a game to a laser-targeted demographic is far, far easier than pushing genuinely good design, which can often transcend conventional genre wisdom.

 

[Game Guru]

Sorry I haven't been in this topic for a while, but I had to respond to this.

This thought also crossed my mind as well but I ignored it because of the cultural impact of Final Fantasy VII. That game is so distinctly japanese Dick Cheney could recognize the difference between it and Morrowind instantly. IMO what killed the hyp train for Japanese games can also be attributed to so many games copying FF VII's usage of FMVs but overdoing it and making games less about playing and more about watching.

Japaness games earned a big stigma for being overblown movies because of that.

It's funny you should mention Final Fantasy VII. That game did have a major impact on the west at the time and it is distinctly Japanese. However, you forget to put Final Fantasy VII into the cultural context of western media at the time. FF7 came out in the US in 1997... What else started in '97 that had a huge cultural impact for the west, especially for the audience that FF7 would have been aiming for? Cartoon Network's Toonami Block. Toonami was a block of cartoons, which were mostly anime in its later years and headlined by Dragonball Z starting in 1998. At the time of FF7's release, the western audiences, especially teenagers, were getting interested in anime. FF7 was essentially an anime in video game form released at the beginnings of anime's popularity in the west.

Nowadays, the popularity of anime itself has waned in the west and that has affected both manga and video games.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

All I know is I'm playing Vanquish atm and it completely destroys all the other shitty bald space marine shooter games this gen is so proud of. The japanese still got it.

I wholeheartedly agree. This is why I hate the fact that Japanese game development is slowing down. Not to mention they are the only developers are capable of fighting quality fighting games.

 

[HK-47]

It's true. In the last 10 minutes, ME2 becomes almost as a stupid as JRPGs are throughout. But that just proves my point. In a JRPG that last fight wouldn't stand out. That guy would just be 3 stories taller and he would be a God of a God who Absorbed the all the chaos ruins in the alternate dimension and turned into his ultra spirit form by merging the geist seeds or something.

Most of the time when I get to the end of a JRPG I don't even know who the fuck I'm fighting or why.

Damn thats how I feel in WRPGs too. Its almost like they both suck at storytelling!

 

[Korigama]

You have to tell me which KOFs have these dance tracks, it mostly just rock and synthesizers they have used in tracks since forever.

Also on the artwork, you're right, it is not the same thing. It's mostly Ogura trying to appeal to Otakus, there are some artists, like Hiroaki( KOF XI artwork) and Nona( KOF XI and KOFXIII), that have more stylized artworks, that aren't as bug- eyed.

Nona didn't work on XIII, though (XII, yes, for the sprites; XIII, no). Ogura, however, was still around for XIII after contributing to XII, while Hiroaki handled the art for 2002 UM after XI.

 

[Zoe]

It seems that coding practices in general are not as cutting-edge in japan. Seen somewhere else:

http://www.tokyomuslim.com/2011/09/force-multipliers-and-japanese-programmers/
also see the comments in: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3046038

How do you get him to let you program in Python/Django when he is still using Excel as a datastore (a shockingly common issue everywhere in the world!)

fixed.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

I probably mentioned it already, but the fact that Japanese companies REFUSE to market and advertise their games to the West is also probably contributing as well. You see Rage, Infamous, Resistance, Gears of Wars 3 and Madden 2012 commercials all over the place but where were the Catherine, Vanquish or Sengoku Basara commercials for example? It's almost like they gave up and stop caring. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money.

 

[HK-47]

I probably mentioned it already, but the fact that Japanese companies REFUSE to market and advertise their games to the West is also probably contributing as well. You see Rage, Infamous, Resistance, Gears of Wars 3 and Madden 2012 commercials all over the place but where were the Catherine, Vanquish or Sengoku Basara commercials for example? It's almost like they gave up and stop caring. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money.

That same reason most western games dont advertise a ton in japan? Or do anything to appeal to that demograph.

 

[Korigama]

I probably mentioned it already, but the fact that Japanese companies REFUSE to market and advertise their games to the West is also probably contributing as well. You see Rage, Infamous, Resistance, Gears of Wars 3 and Madden 2012 commercials all over the place but where were the Catherine, Vanquish or Sengoku Basara commercials for example? It's almost like they gave up and stop caring. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money.

Atlus USA doesn't do TV commercials, and Sega's marketing department is ass-backwards (Vanquish didn't get any advertising, but that POS Rise of Nightmares received plenty). Capcom usually tends to save their commercials for more high profile releases, and the Sengoku Basara franchise isn't particularly big outside of Japan (before anyone mentions Monster Hunter Tri, Nintendo helped them with that).

Madworld got a ton of commercials and it bombed. If something is gonna have a niche following anyway, no need to spend insane amounts of money on a TV spot.

Vanquish was designed with more commercial appeal in mind than Platinum's other efforts, though (even Bayonetta, which seems to have more than a few detractors as a result of its look and released the same year, received a televised ad campaign).

 

[Mandoric]

Sorry I haven't been in this topic for a while, but I had to respond to this.



It's funny you should mention Final Fantasy VII. That game did have a major impact on the west at the time and it is distinctly Japanese. However, you forget to put Final Fantasy VII into the cultural context of western media at the time. FF7 came out in the US in 1997... What else started in '97 that had a huge cultural impact for the west, especially for the audience that FF7 would have been aiming for? Cartoon Network's Toonami Block. Toonami was a block of cartoons, which were mostly anime in its later years and headlined by Dragonball Z starting in 1998. At the time of FF7's release, the western audiences, especially teenagers, were getting interested in anime. FF7 was essentially an anime in video game form released at the beginnings of anime's popularity in the west.

Nowadays, the popularity of anime itself has waned in the west and that has affected both manga and video games.

Most titles (on either side) are marketing pushes, not marketing follows. As "unfamiliar" and "foreign" the biggest obstacle isn't the content's style, it's keeping it in front of people in a way that the nightly news and constant terrible novels and made-for-TV movies keep, say, CoD's tropes front and center. Anime's decline in teen popularity probably has more to do with CN's internal studios coming online and their decision to shift to series where the merch money goes in their pockets, and FF7's success is heavily correlated with not being able to buy a Pepsi without Cloud staring you in the face.

On the other hand, nowadays, Japanese titles are neatly split between Nintendo who do know how to push products mass-market, Final Fantasy and Resident Evil which rest on their "big name" laurels and wonder why sales decay over time, and a wide range of niche products that are small enough where CRMs on an internet message board actuall are worthwhile.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I probably mentioned it already, but the fact that Japanese companies REFUSE to market and advertise their games to the West is also probably contributing as well. You see Rage, Infamous, Resistance, Gears of Wars 3 and Madden 2012 commercials all over the place but where were the Catherine, Vanquish or Sengoku Basara commercials for example? It's almost like they gave up and stop caring. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money.

Madworld got a ton of commercials and it bombed. If something is gonna have a niche following anyway, no need to spend insane amounts of money on a TV spot.

 

[charlequin]

How would you say the emergence of internal middleware at Capcom, Square Enix, and Konami is responding to this problem?

It's a good choice, as long as it's done in a forward-looking way. Change in the underlying technologies is going to get much slower from here on out, as consoles and handhelds converge with PC/phone/tablet hardware and the rate of hardware improvements slows. An in-house engine that can easily support all of the active platforms, scale up and expand with new hardware capabilities, and be used for a variety of games is something that'll pay dividends for years (or even decades) and it can fill the void of third-party engines like UE (which, as we've established, has been difficult for Japanese devs to make effective use of.)

Of course, you have to actually achieve that. I would say that Capcom has been quite successful in accomplishing this, while Square-Enix has been spectacularly unsuccessful.