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[pashmilla]

So, FFXV has been out for a while. Some people like it, some people hate it, some people are meh. But I think one thing most people agree on is that the story of this game is a complete dumpster fire - or rather, the presentation of the story in this game is ass. So I'm thinking - without changing the basic premise in any way (collecting royal weapons and waking up summons) - how could Square have presented the story better? Some thoughts:

1. DON'T HIRE THE FUCKING DISSIDIA 012 SCRIPTWRITER JFC
2. No supplementary material, we die like men.
3. Cut Chapter 0. Cut that shit. It only serves to completely remove tension as to whether all the characters are gonna survive until post-timeskip.
4. Open with Insomnia invasion. Just do it. It could have been one of the best FF openings of all time. Instead we push a car, much wow.
5. Open world hurts pacing, surprise. You know who ever finished the main quest of Skyrim? No one, that's who. FFXII style "zones" that are smaller would help funnel the player forwards better, instead of everyone spending 80 hours on Chapter 3.
6. Re: Insomnia invasion - I'm pretty sure this was originally what happened but have Cor meet up with the party after they escape and tell them about Regis' death. Not a fucking newspaper.
7. No bullshit fetch quests to move the plot forwards!!! Fuck you Dino!!!
8. Get to Accordo earlier than fucking chapter 8. Have several chapters of plot stuff going down there. Luna is an actual character.
9. Speaking of Luna how about we don't fucking kill her. She can join your party as a designated healer or something, that would be cool. "Come on Noctis, let's go wake up the other summons together! Yaaaay!"
10. No train walking simulator. I suggested this in another thread, but instead have each area - Cartanica, Shiva's booty etc, be a relatively open but self-contained zone, and let the player freely travel between them and Altissia via train/teleport crystal.
11. I don't even know where to begin with Gentiana. Maybe foreshadow that shit instead of being like oh, okay, guess she's naked and blue now. Hmm.
12. Speaking of foreshadowing, Prompto. I'm an MT! Now let's never speak of this again! NO. Maybe have Ardyn make cryptic remarks early on or a scene with Prompto being all sad and angsty and Noctis doesn't know why. Make it clear he's hiding something. Also Verstael actually shows up.
13. Iedolas has more screentime than being a pile of empty clothes on a chair.
14. Aranea is a permanent party member. One of my fave things about previous FFs was having the party grow and getting to meet new characters.
15. World of Ruin is explorable. FF6 style thing where you have to roam the land and gather your party once more.
16. If Luna and Noctis have to die, at least have them decide to sacrifice themselves together. That way they can still have the Titanic afterlife wedding but Luna has some goddamn agency.

IDK. Thoughts?

 

[Killer Queen]

I was going to make a similar thread a month ago but decided against it.
Some of your ideas are okay but some are terrible, and pretty much nearly all of them are unreasonable with the game in its current state.

Definitely agree about Prompto being an MT though.

 

[AGoodODST]

The game does hint at Prompto does it not? The scene on top of the motel roof for example. And following his fall from the train Ardyn makes several remarks about him hiding something.

I don't really think they neeed to dwell on it longer than they did. It served its purpose in showing that the party accepted him despite him being an MT just like they accepted him despite being from a different background/social class.

 

[jiggle]

Not scattering the core story into a separate paid movie, paid dlcs, animes, strategy guide, loading screens, missable radio broadcasts, interruptable dialogues would be a good start

 

[Killer Queen]

The game does hint at Prompto does it not? The scene on top of the motel roof for example. And following his fall from the train Ardyn makes several remarks about him hiding something.

I don't really think they neeed to dwell on it longer than they did. It served its purpose in showing that the party accepted him despite him being an MT just like they accepted him despite being from a different background/social class.

That's not really good foreshadowing.

Something better would be Prompto feeling unnerved in the presence of MT's or having a curiosity for them, both i feel would fit in character and do a much better job foreshadowing.

"This person is harboring a secret!" And leaving it at that is never good foreshadowing.

 

[Anx]

Mostly agreed. The story in this game is anything but fresh, and the biggest problem with it is the way it is told.

I've enjoyed the game though.

 

[120v]

i think if they just worked some of the story and lore into quests instead of having you catch frogs or whatever the whole thing would feel way more cohesive

still woudn't fix a lot of problems but this was the biggest fail in my book

 

[Dmax3901]

"I may seem like a joker, but I'm a mess of hangups"

That one line from Prompto during one of the few scenes devoted to character 'development' sums up a lot of the issues with XV's story imo: flat characters whose very dialogue sounds like they're just naming which cliched trope they adhere to.

 

[coastel]

I agree with most but I really like the open world parts of final fantasy games. I've hated all the others since 10 onwards. Yea they could of made it a bit more populated and more shit to do but it wasn't to bad at all.

 

[Killer Queen]

Here are the fixes to the story I wrote up for the thread a while back.

-More foreshadowing for the events of Gralea and the MT reveal:
For something that should be a massive event and a huge reveal in the games story falls completely flat because there's no (Unless I missed something in the main story) foreshadowing leading up to it, it just kind of comes completely out of left field and even then the only background you get of it are some newspapers on the table in chapter 13. That's really lackluster and that event should carry a lot more impact than it does. What I'd like to see instead is maybe during early game cutscenes or story moments a radio playing in the background with tidbits and hints on the gradual disappearances of Gralean citizens, something that's unmissable and more commentary from Prompto on the MT's, it would be nice if she showed some kind of interest, connection, fear, really anything towards them moreso than the other characters again for foreshadowing purposes and I think Prompto feeling unsettled in their presence for some unknown reason would be enough.

It would also be nice if the emperor in demon form had a more unique design and you fought him in the throne room rather then have him be just another random demon because it also limits the impact of that reveal as someone that should be a major figure in the game is reduced to canon fodder with a random throwaway line just to let you know "Hey, I was the emperor all along!", maybe a Bloodborne/Vicar Amelia esque transformation in the throne room or something would've been a lot cooler then what we got and would fit the level's horror theme. It's also infinitely less annoying than being constantly attacked randomly by an unkillable enemy. Which was another terrible addition to chapter 13

-Shorten Chapter 13:
The level itself isn't bad and I really like the idea behind it and its cool for like half an hour, and then it drags on for another hour before you get to the end and the constant carrot on a stick design is only cool for so long before it gets annoying. "Haha, you've made it to the end Noctis! just kidding you're like 12% done" yeah no thanks. I appreciate trying something new and I think the mood and atmosphere was great along with only letting you use the ring, but it goes on for way too long.

-The early game story needs more direction and urgency: For a game that culminates in cataclysmic events, it never really feels like the game is heading that way despite there being some hints of it. Like the Scourge of the Stars is talked about, the nights getting longer is talked about and more and more demons appearing is talked about but all of this is briefly glossed over leaving the final events of the game feeling somewhat unearned and the first maybe two thirds of the game seem somewhat aimless. It makes sense after Insomnia's fall for the crew to be aimless and have trouble finding their way but it would be nice if the world and characters around them showed some more concern for potential future events. Luna especially considering that's kind of her job

There's a day and night system in the game, why not actually make the night grow longer as the game progresses since your character will actually be able to handle it at that point? I'm not asking for perpetually night before chapter 14 but maybe have it extend by a couple of hours as little details are some of what the game is lacking.

A cutscene of Luna explaining the importance and urgency of the scourge and what it is would also go a long way in addition to showing more people afflicted by it (I know there's the one vague optional cutscene)


Ravus and Luna need a lot of reworking: This is a huge complaint from a lot of people. Luna doesn't really do much then dies and then Ravus doesn't do much then dies and then comes back to life because reasons and then there's that one really weird cutscene that makes no sense and I uh. Yeah all of this needs to be re done. Since their story in game is purely told through cutscenes and this is where they're going to make changes to the story I feel like it wouldn't be overly difficult to remove the current cutscenes and re do them to make sense and add some personality to both of them. I think it would be cool that if as the oracle Luna tries to warn the world of the dangers of Starscourge but people don't listen because its out of sight, out of mind and they're happy being complacent, Luna ends up feeling frustrated and alone but Noctis believes her. This gives us an actual reason to care about collecting the summons rather than "Well, just do it".

While Ravus doesn't care because he doesn't believe in any of it since he's the lapdog of the Nifs and he and everyone else is oblivious to what they're doing behind closed doors for their power. It would also be nice if his execution scene was shown at the end of chapter 9 rather than just talked about in a newspaper on a train so at least it makes some sense for Ardyn to have his dead body.

As for Ardyn: He's a great character but I feel he also falls into the pit of not enough foreshadowing. At least in terms of his power, evilness and royal lineage. He helps you for majority of the game then just shows up and starts messing with you until he reveals he's actually immortal and just tries to ruin your day for the remainder of the game. It's obvious he's shady but no on one else really cares and just kind of accepts that he's there because reasons. And then there's that scene. "MY name is Lucis Caelum, guess who's Izunia's is?" again which should be a major scene except it holds no weight or meaning because the story of either Lucis Caellum and Izunia are never mentioned and ultimately it changes nothing if they're names are flipped because neither name holds any weight. I know there's a small bit of foreshadowing on the Cosmology book but I think that scene would be a lot more impressive had the Izunia's either been talked about beforehand, or if during Noctis's 10 year sleep there was a scene of exposition explaining the history of the Izunia and Lucis Caellum.

 

[Groof]

That's not really good foreshadowing.

Something better would be Prompto feeling unnerved in the presence of MT's or having a curiosity for them, both i feel would fit in character and do a much better job foreshadowing.

"This person is harboring a secret!" And leaving it at that is never good foreshadowing.

Not to mention the motel rooftop scene is easily missable. I only saw it after I had finished the game and that was by pure chance.

 

[JimmyRustler]

The story of this game must be the biggest mess I have experienced in years. So much is unexplained, missing and/barely touched it's quite stunning. At some point I just gave up trying to understand whats happening and why Noct is doing what he does.

 

[AGoodODST]

That's not really good foreshadowing.

Something better would be Prompto feeling unnerved in the presence of MT's or having a curiosity for them, both i feel would fit in character and do a much better job foreshadowing.

"This person is harboring a secret!" And leaving it at that is never good foreshadowing.

Yeah that would be a good way of handling it. I do think they hinted at it heavily following his fall from the train though.

Back to the OP though I thought the biggest issue with the story was the scourge. It only gets mentioned like twice and even then is never explained. All the stuff with the King, Ardyn and the crystal was good and made for an excellent ending, but did it even say why that made the star dim?

 

[arcticice]

haven't played any JRPGs really, and story in the most western games just doesnt exist anymore. So, I liked FFXV's story. I liked the main cast, their relationship, didnt really care much about luna, but that last act really appealed to me. I loved it.

 

[KillLaCam]

I had fun with the game but it went from my potentially favorite game of all time (2013 trailers) to an alright game. I think I was just dissapointed at how much was cut or changed from the amazing 2013 trailer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcUSXub_ypU

 

[KZXcellent]

Here are the fixes to the story I wrote up for the thread a while back.

I pretty much agree with all of your fixes.

 

[SliceSabre]

14. Aranea is a permanent party member. One of my fave things about previous FFs was having the party grow and getting to meet new characters.

Why the hell would she join you? She literally has zero reason to want to join the party, hell the first couple times you meet her she's working for the Empire then after that she and her band of mercs are doing their own thing. This sounds like you just falling in love with a character but not actually considering why they would do something and how that affects the story and party.

I mean hell I loved Iris but I get why she was only in the party for a hot second. This isn't Iris' or Aranea's journey.

 

[patapuf]

If you have big setpiece moments like the end of chapter 13 or the leviathan fight the themes and things revealed there need some buildup to actually have impact.

A dramatic death is only dramatic if the character means something to you - having the majority of Lunas character building after the death scene is kind of silly.

Having a major theme about growing up and taking responsibility - and then never have any conflict where the character needs to grow up and take responsiblity (aside from that one borked scene in chapter 9) doesn't work. We get an abundance of fun things to do on a camping trip, but Noctis doesn't even have to contribute to that!



To me FFXV felt like a collection of supposedly big moments and yet the game spend no time building them up. They just happen. The rest of the story and character building happens off screen or is mentioned in party banter (if at all). Even the biggest character moments of your own party and of the MC happens off screen. Time jumped 10 years! Noctis behaves like an adult now, for some reason. That's just silly in a character driven narrative.

Take the time to tell your story, please.

 

[encephalon]

Why does Chapter 0 even exist? Why did we even fight Ifrit at the end of the game?

Why does almost everything in the game consist of "Noctis is getting more power?"

Why have a time jump?

 

[Adaren]

Two ideas:

1. Integrate the "lore tutorial" into the world somehow. One possibility would be narrating the cosmic history of the world over Chapter 0 a la Bayonetta (Gentiana could do the voice, as a bit of subtle foreshadowing). More modern history (demons, nations, etc.) could be explained by Ignis to Prompto over the campfire the first night. But however they do it, those lore paintings have to go. They're absolutely dreadful.

2. The whole early game suffers from a lack of reaction. Major events happen, and characters seem almost amnesiac about them. There's a sharp divide between the main quests and how the world seems when you're going around and doing side quests. There needs to be some way to bridge that gap.

What if, after Insomnia fell, a semi-hidden refugee camp was opened somewhere? Cor could hang out there, and you could pick up side quests that would give Insomnia more emotional weight. This would give space for the characters to grieve / swear retribution for Insomnia without overwhelming the tone of their brotrip adventure.

Other ideas to give the main quests more impact:
Titan dropping the meteor -> new quests fleshing out Lestallum as they react to this major event for their infrastructure; power plant shenanigans; new NPCs to flesh out the world
Aranea ditching the Empire -> she joins your party, or at least has more of a presence than just being a random one-battle event. Maybe she could become a questgiver to flesh out her character, or go help the Insomnia refugees to get some interaction between the side characters?
Ardyn reveals he's helping you -> more dialogue among the party discussing how this is super weird/suspicious. They're so nonchalant about it that I thought I must have been misinterpreting something. Maybe also let Ardyn help you for longer before he reveals he's the chancellor; I feel like he shows all his cards too early, and it overwhelms the number of things that the characters have to react to (resulting in them not reacting at all, and instead ignoring it to do this jarring "Dude where's our car?" thing).

 

[Ferr986]

Why the hell would she join you? She literally has zero reason to want to join the party, hell the first couple times you meet her she's working for the Empire then after that she and her band of mercs are doing their own thing. This sounds like you just falling in love with a character but not actually considering why they would do something and how that affects the story and party.

I mean hell I loved Iris but I get why she was only in the party for a hot second. This isn't Iris' or Aranea's journey.

Agreed. I REALLY liked Aranea but making her, or the other characters permanent would be a misstep IMO.

The story of this game is about the 4 bros. It's cool that we get randomly people joining sometimes but the focus should be only about the story of friendship of these 4 guys.

What they could make is having an option to play with them on your team on ch.15, as an endgame bonus.

9. Speaking of Luna how about we don't fucking kill her. She can join your party as a designated healer or something, that would be cool. "Come on Noctis, let's go wake up the other summons together! Yaaaay!"

16. If Luna and Noctis have to die, at least have them decide to sacrifice themselves together. That way they can still have the Titanic afterlife wedding but Luna has some goddamn agency.

I agree that Luna is shit character and has no agency, but making them die together would eliminate the point of Noctis having to grown up after people he loved dies. Luna dying and Noctis grief is an important plot point after Ch.9, for him and also for the bros (especially Gladio).

 

[AGoodODST]

Why does Chapter 0 even exist? Why did we even fight Ifrit at the end of the game?

Yeah I thought chapter 0 removed a lot of the tension from some of the later chapters as you knew the guys were alive.

 

[encephalon]

Why the hell would she join you? She literally has zero reason to want to join the party, hell the first couple times you meet her she's working for the Empire then after that she and her band of mercs are doing their own thing. This sounds like you just falling in love with a character but not actually considering why they would do something and how that affects the story and party.

I mean hell I loved Iris but I get why she was only in the party for a hot second. This isn't Iris' or Aranea's journey.

It's not like her character temporarily joining your party makes any sense in the game as it is now.

Yeah I thought chapter 0 removed a lot of the tension from some of the later chapters as you knew the guys were alive.

It's incredible that the opening is a future glimpse at a fight that doesn't really matter. Maybe Ardyn was once Ifrit?

 

[Inuhanyou]

At this point, FF15 turned out how it turned out.

We should be asking more questions about what the DLC can do to patchwork some of the problems than what should have happend with the base game

 

[Dmax3901]

Just remembered how you never see Cor after the opening of the game lol.

 

[Dark_castle]

So, FFXV has been out for a while. Some people like it, some people hate it, some people are meh. But I think one thing most people agree on is that the story of this game is a complete dumpster fire - or rather, the presentation of the story in this game is ass. So I'm thinking - without changing the basic premise in any way (collecting royal weapons and waking up summons) - how could Square have presented the story better? Some thoughts:

1. DON'T HIRE THE FUCKING DISSIDIA 012 SCRIPTWRITER JFC

There you go. Since day one we knew about Itamuro being the writer, I had been very skeptical about the story of XV, and I was right. Of all people you could hire to write Final Fantasy XV, one of your biggest and most important game to date, you put someone whose previous work was Dissidia 012. WTF...

I know Nojima can be a huge hit/miss, but at least he is a very experienced writer and is capable of decent world building, why not stick to him instead of switching gear to someone completely unproven or had a very weak previous work history.

 

[Frumix]

It's very evident they just couldn't make all the scripted set pieces in time so they cut everything until it was a game that could be shipped. Who could tell an expansive fantasy story under such conditions?

 

[AGoodODST]

It's incredible that the opening is a future glimpse at a fight that doesn't really matter. Maybe Ardyn was once Ifrit?

I think the Ifrit fight was meant to be showing Ardyn as being similar to Noctis but bad. The last parts reinforce this as they explain how Ardyn was meant to be the King but was rejected.

So Noctis had his summons and Ardyn had his. I might be wrong here though and anyway it doesn't explain it.

Just remembered how you never see Cor after the opening of the game lol.

Yeah lol. They mention him at one point and are just like "yeah he is away killing monsters" or something.

 

[jiggle]

Just remembered how you never see Cor after the opening of the game lol.

Hu?

 

[AzureFlame]

I agree with everything OP said, but the game got good reviews and people love it, that's why unfortunately they won't bother with all that.

 

[PhantomKnight]

They should have also put some flashback scenes to show the relationship between Noctis and his Father more, would have made the ending more emotional. Something like each time Noctis absorbs a royal arm it shows a flashback of him and his father, some of them could even show scenes of previous kings and foreshadow Ardyn.
Missed opportunity

 

[Killer Queen]

I think the Ifrit fight was meant to be showing Ardyn as being similar to Noctis but bad. The last parts reinforce this as they explain how Ardyn was meant to be the King but was rejected.

So Noctis had his summons and Ardyn had his. I might be wrong here though and anyway it doesn't explain it.


.

Ifrit and Ardyn were In league together to create the star scourge and fuck everyone over iirc.

As for FFXV's story. I'd honestly, wholeheartedly say that the world created and the story material is really good. It's just unfinished, poorly put together and poorly told. It's a lot of missed potential.

If FFXV-2 ever does happen, I wouldn't mind if it was a fully realized version of FFXV's gameworld, but have the story take place from an alternate viewpoint/dimension with Ardyn as the main character.

 

[Gbraga]

Honestly, I think the writer is fine. Most of the issues come from presentation, I doubt they were just following her idea of making things disconnected and not flowing well. If anything, she was the one who had to write around the development issues.

I'd go as far as saying that Noctis became a more interesting character with more interesting dialogue with her on board, it's very noticeable to me rewatching every trailer. Now, of course we didn't get much from Versus Noctis, but if it's fair to hype it based on the little we had, then it's also fair to criticize it.

When it comes to "how would you fix it", I like to keep things realistic. "Add a bunch more stuff!!!" isn't exactly realistic when the most likely reason for the narrative issues is lack of time. "Open with the Insomnia invasion" is not exactly a very reasonable suggestion. I feel like you're underestimating the creators. If you can think of a better segment in a few sconds, I'm sure they thought of it over the course of years too. It's just not always reasonable to follow your best ideas.

So, with that in mind, things that wouldn't greatly affect the game's structure that could at least help people to be less confused about the story would be, imo:

1 - Dark Souls style intro that presents the world and the lore to the player. Talk about the warring nations, talk about the gods, the scourge, the chosen king, you know, things that seem to be common knowledge in the game's world, but are never properly presented in the game itself. They can cut to Chapter 0 after that, if they really want that garbage opening. Car pushing is fine. (this is Neiteio's idea, if I'm not mistaken)

2 - When Noctis is inside the crystal, add a bunch of cutscenes for more exposition in a way that makes sense. Noctis is as confused as the player in many parts, but after the crystal, he comes out knowing things that a big part of the audience still don't know. Have Bahamut and the Knights of the Round show him visions of the past.

The simpler version would be just cutscenes: Bahamut shows him Ifrit creating the Scourge, the Astral War, the fall of Solheim, him choosing his king and Oracle, and everything that happened until Ardyn was demonized.

Then you get very short scenes from each king showing what they did, which is mentioned in the royal arms' descriptions. So the first king builds the wall, the second king conquers what is now known as Lucis, and so on.

When you get to Regis, then it's a longer scene, showing the Dawn trailer bit, Regis' journey with Cor, Weskham and Cid and you can even put another Kingsglaive bit in here with Nyx asking him if he sacrificed Insomnia to save his son, and Luna says "to save the world". Would at least show game-only people who the fuck that guy is.

The more expensive version would be to make these segments playable in some capacity, but it's not very reasonable.

They should have also put some flashback scenes to show the relationship between Noctis and his Father more, would have made the ending more emotional. Something like each time Noctis absorbs a royal arm it shows a flashback of him and his father, some of them could even show scenes of previous kings and foreshadow Ardyn.
Missed opportunity

This is a very good idea, like the Umbra flashbacks with Luna.

There you go. Since day one we knew about Itamuro being the writer, I had been very skeptical about the story of XV, and I was right. Of all people you could hire to write Final Fantasy XV, one of your biggest and most important game to date, you put someone whose previous work was Dissidia 012. WTF...

I know Nojima can be a huge hit/miss, but at least he is a very experienced writer and is capable of decent world building, why not stick to him instead of switching gear to someone completely unproven or had a very weak previous work history.

Isn't he working on FFVII? That's probably the reason.

 

[Killer Queen]

Honestly, I think the writer is fine. Most of the issues come from presentation, I doubt they were just following her idea of making things disconnected and not flowing well. If anything, she was the one who had to write around the development issues.

I'd go as far as saying that Noctis became a more interesting character with more interesting dialogue with her on board, it's very noticeable to me rewatching every trailer. Now, of course we didn't get much from Versus Noctis, but if it's fair to hype it based on the little we had, then it's also fair to criticize it.

When it comes to "how would you fix it", I like to keep thing realistic. "Add a bunch more stuff!!!" isn't exactly realistic when the most likely reason for the narrative issues is lack of time. "Open with the Insomnia invasion" is not exactly a very reasonable suggestion. I feel like you're underestimating the creators. If you can think of a better segment in a few sconds, I'm sure they thought of it over the course of years too. It's just not always reasonable to follow your best ideas.

So, with that in mind, things that wouldn't greatly affect the game's structure that could at least help people to be less confused about the story would be, imo:

1 - Dark Souls style intro that presents the world and the lore to the player. Talk about the warring nations, talk about the gods, the scourge, the chosen king, you know, things that seem to be common knowledge in the game's world, but are never properly presented in the game itself. They can cut to Chapter 0 after that, if they really want that garbage opening. Car pushing is fine. (this is Neiteio's idea, if I'm not mistaken)

2 - When Noctis is inside the crystal, add a bunch of cutscenes for more exposition in a way that makes sense. Noctis is as confused as the player in many parts, but after the crystal, he comes out knowing things that a big part of the audience still don't know. Have Bahamut and the Knights of the Round show him visions of the past.

The simpler version would be just cutscenes: Bahamut shows him Ifrit creating the Scourge, the Astral War, the fall of Solheim, him choosing his king and Oracle, and everything that happened until Ardyn was demonized.

Then you get very short scenes from each king showing what they did, which is mentioned in the royal arms' descriptions. So the first king builds the wall, the second king conquers what is now known as Lucis, and so on.

When you get to Regis, then it's a longer scene, showing the Dawn trailer bit, Regis' journey with Cor, Weskham and Cid and you can even put another Kingsglaive bit in here with Nyx asking him if he sacrificed Insomnia to save his son, and Luna says "to save the world". Would at least show game-only people who the fuck that guy is.

The more expensive version would be to make these segments playable in some capacity, but it's not very reasonable.



This is a very good idea, like the Umbra flashbacks with Luna.



Isn't he working on FFVII? That's probably the reason.

You and I agree near completely so very often

 

[MisterNugNug]

The idea of the "bro-trip" is at odds with the narrative. Why in the world would I continue on a road trip to get married when my father is murdered and the kingdom I've called home is invaded? There should be a sense of urgency but there isn't because you don't have much to do outside of monster hunts and sidequests (of the MMO variety) And even then as a player I have no emotional connection to Luna or any real insight into how deep of a relationship that Noctis and Luna have (outside of a few cutscenes of them as children).

Luna's death (for me) had no emotional impact or weight when it occurred.

 

[Rymuth]

Problem is - the story and the payoffs were made for a different game with different themes. You can see tinges of the Romeo/Juliet parallels that Nomura wanted originally-

Except Tabata grew bored - he looked at Nomuras story, cherry picked the shiny parts and ran with it. He took the climaxes, the payoffs because it sounded cool conceptually but didn't bother planting the road to reach them.

I agree with all of your points but problem is, you'd just be adding to the patchwerk monster that the plot already is. No amount of cutting and addition of scenes, I feel, can fix the absence of the Empire, the anemic Starscourge plot and the world of ruin because they are leftovers from a different story that conflict with the story Tabata wanted to tell.

What I'm trying to say is - FFXV is a story that is ultimately at war with itself. It wants to be about a prince reclaiming his homeland but the empire soldiers he fights are all empty, thus absolving him of any bloodshed. It wants to be an epic love story but his bride was handed to him since childhood making it difficult to care. Only thing it pulled off was the Brotherhood angle and even that was a little shaky for me because Gladio turned into such an ass later on.

 

[AzureFlame]

They should have also put some flashback scenes to show the relationship between Noctis and his Father more, would have made the ending more emotional. Something like each time Noctis absorbs a royal arm it shows a flashback of him and his father, some of them could even show scenes of previous kings and foreshadow Ardyn.
Missed opportunity

Just imagine a scene Regis being killed in front of his own son, how emotional it can and then it'll be even more emotional at the end where his father ends noct life + childhood flash backs.

Crazy missed opportunity.

 

[Ferr986]

The idea of the "bro-trip" is at odds with the narrative. Why in the world would I continue on a road trip to get married when my father is murdered and the kingdom I've called home is invaded? There should be a sense of urgency but there isn't because you don't have much to do outside of monster hunts and sidequests (of the MMO variety) And even then as a player I have no emotional connection to Luna or any real insight into how deep of a relationship that Noctis and Luna have (outside of a few cutscenes of them as children).

Luna's death (for me) had no emotional impact or weight when it occurred.

Story wise is not really a road trip after Ch.1. They try to go back to Insomnia but is already occupied by the Empire, and all they do after that is to reach Altissia, not because they want some holidays. Yeah they enjoy going to new places but that's because it's more fun than having the 4 bros being all Squall saying "whatever" to each other for 40 hours.

Gameplay wise there's a lack of urgency, yeah, but this is a problem all games had. It's just more noticeable here because of the open world design.

Problem is - the story and the payoffs were made for a different game with different themes. You can see tinges of the Romeo/Juliet parallels that Nomura wanted originally-

Except Tabata grew bored - he looked at Nomuras story, cherry picked the shiny parts and ran with it. He took the climaxes, the payoffs because it sounded cool conceptually but didn't bother planting the road to reach them.

I agree with all of your points but problem is, you'd just be adding to the patchwerk monster that the plot already is. No amount of cutting and addition of scenes, I feel, can fix the absence of the Empire, the anemic Starscourge plot and the world of ruin because they are leftovers from a different story that conflict with the story Tabata wanted to tell.

What I'm trying to say is - FFXV is a story that is ultimately at war with itself. It wants to be about a prince reclaiming his homeland but the empire soldiers he fights are all empty, thus absolving him of any bloodshed. It wants to be an epic love story but his bride was handed to him since childhood making it difficult to care. Only thing it pulled off was the Brotherhood angle and even that was a little shaky for me because Gladio turned into such an ass later on.

Well, if we trust the leaks Versus was not going to be a Romeo and Juliet story.

 

[patapuf]

Honestly, I think the writer is fine. Most of the issues come from presentation, I doubt they were just following her idea of making things disconnected and not flowing well. If anything, she was the one who had to write around the development issues.

I'd go as far as saying that Noctis became a more interesting character with more interesting dialogue with her on board, it's very noticeable to me rewatching every trailer. Now, of course we didn't get much from Versus Noctis, but if it's fair to hype it based on the little we had, then it's also fair to criticize it.

When it comes to "how would you fix it", I like to keep things realistic. "Add a bunch more stuff!!!" isn't exactly realistic when the most likely reason for the narrative issues is lack of time. "Open with the Insomnia invasion" is not exactly a very reasonable suggestion. I feel like you're underestimating the creators. If you can think of a better segment in a few sconds, I'm sure they thought of it over the course of years too. It's just not always reasonable to follow your best ideas.

So, with that in mind, things that wouldn't greatly affect the game's structure that could at least help people to be less confused about the story would be, imo:

1 - Dark Souls style intro that presents the world and the lore to the player. Talk about the warring nations, talk about the gods, the scourge, the chosen king, you know, things that seem to be common knowledge in the game's world, but are never properly presented in the game itself. They can cut to Chapter 0 after that, if they really want that garbage opening. Car pushing is fine. (this is Neiteio's idea, if I'm not mistaken)

2 - When Noctis is inside the crystal, add a bunch of cutscenes for more exposition in a way that makes sense. Noctis is as confused as the player in many parts, but after the crystal, he comes out knowing things that a big part of the audience still don't know. Have Bahamut and the Knights of the Round show him visions of the past.

The simpler version would be just cutscenes: Bahamut shows him Ifrit creating the Scourge, the Astral War, the fall of Solheim, him choosing his king and Oracle, and everything that happened until Ardyn was demonized.

Then you get very short scenes from each king showing what they did, which is mentioned in the royal arms' descriptions. So the first king builds the wall, the second king conquers what is now known as Lucis, and so on.

When you get to Regis, then it's a longer scene, showing the Dawn trailer bit, Regis' journey with Cor, Weskham and Cid and you can even put another Kingsglaive bit in here with Nyx asking him if he sacrificed Insomnia to save his son, and Luna says "to save the world". Would at least show game-only people who the fuck that guy is.

The more expensive version would be to make these segments playable in some capacity, but it's not very reasonable.



This is a very good idea, like the Umbra flashbacks with Luna.



Isn't he working on FFVII? That's probably the reason.

Personally, i don't think it's the big, expensive setpieces that are missing/lacking - the game has enough of those.

The problem is that those are pretty much the only moments with any kind of story development.

We have this huge amount of down-time spent in car rides, camps ect. with lots of dialogue - exept none of it developps the world, and it only minorly developps the characters.


This was not just a budget issue.

edit: The worst example has to be altissa. We come to a city on the brink of being invaded, we are on the way to a political negotiation that's supposed to be a difficult balancing act - and the one sidequest they give us is chasing after a wedding dress. Meh. (and then you get a pop-up: "hey! this is serious! you are supposed to be a king here! lol.)

 

[MisterNugNug]

Story wise is not really a road trip after Ch.1. They try to go back to Insomnia but is already occupied by the Empire, and all they do after that is to reach Altissia, not because they want some holidays. Yeah they enjoy going to new places but that's because it's more fun than having the 4 bros being all Squall saying "whatever" to each other for 40 hours.

Gameplay wise there's a lack of urgency, yeah, but this is a problem all games had. It's just more noticeable here because of the open world design.



Well, if we trust the leaks Versus was not going to be a Romeo and Juliet story.

But that's idea that the game wants to convey. Its a trip/adventure with your best friends. Having the invasion take place near the beginning of the game doesn't help; it simply raises the stakes when the game should really be introducing these characters. I say this haven't not watched King's Glaive or Brotherhood. I have no interest in watching other "canon" source material

 

[cj_iwakura]

Yeah lol. They mention him at one point and are just like "yeah he is away killing monsters" or something.

Same as Iris and Cindy.

 

[AgentLampshade]

If they were dead set on Luna dying, it should have been at the end of chapter 13 while Noctis is absorbed by the crystal. She'd join the party in Altissia and compensate for Ignis' blindness. She'd participate in a boss battle against normal Ravus, who succumbs to the daemonic power through the fight. Ravus' motivation at first would be to kill Noctis to free Luna, then to simply kill them all. The interactions between Luna and Ravus would have been tragic as hell now that we know Luna. She'd die from Ardyn's conjoured sword as he reveals his past. Noctis of course would watch helplessly. More tragic.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

I know the game's story has its faults (and certainly there's areas that just need "more" for lack of a better word), but it never ceases to amaze me how fucking bad every fan idea to "fix" a problem like this is.

I'm glad none of you guys are writers.

 

[Killer Queen]

I know the game's story has its faults (and certainly there's areas that just need "more" for lack of a better word), but it never ceases to amaze me how fucking bad every fan idea to "fix" a problem like this is.

I'm glad none of you guys are writers.

Nice contribution bro.

 

[hogendaz85]

Whew good thing I finished the story in 26 hours!

I simply would have liked a more in depth story that was for certain hurt by the open world. It didn't necessarily lack focus but it felt like the story needed fleshed out better.

 

[TannerDemoz]

The story of this game must be the biggest mess I have experienced in years. So much is unexplained, missing and/barely touched it's quite stunning. At some point I just gave up trying to understand whats happening and why Noct is doing what he does.

This. I was trying to think of a way to say this but you nailed it.

I actually thought the way the characters spoke/vibed off each other was great for the first couple of hours. I think the game goes way downhill shortly after the beach bit. I couldn't relate to or feel emotionally attached to the story at any point. I read in interviews beforehand that the ending is meant to be one of the most emotional FF endings ever, and it did nothing for me.

I haven't played 1 - 6, but shouldn't FF games have a love story as the central story arc? I thought ffxv didn't do enough here

 

[Vincent Grayson]

This. I was trying to think of a way to say this but you nailed it.

I actually thought the way the characters spoke/vibed off each other was great for the first couple of hours. I think the game goes way downhill shortly after the beach bit. I couldn't relate to or feel emotionally attached to the story at any point. I read in interviews beforehand that the ending is meant to be one of the most emotional FF endings ever, and it did nothing for me.

I haven't played 1 - 6, but shouldn't FF games have a love story as the central story arc? I thought ffxv didn't do enough here

Love stories aren't generally the central arc in FF games. The ones that have featured one as a central arc are really few and far between (arguably, only FFX really makes it a focus).

But then, I also just don't get this in reference to XV, as I not only never found myself wondering why people were doing things, but I also found the Noctis/Luna relationship to be compelling, despite them never being together during the game. I bought it 100%.

 

[Lynx_7]

I know the game's story has its faults (and certainly there's areas that just need "more" for lack of a better word), but it never ceases to amaze me how fucking bad every fan idea to "fix" a problem like this is.

I'm glad none of you guys are writers.

This kind of post doesn't have much of a purpose tbh. If you don't want to take part in the discussion then don't. If you do, then point out why you don't like the alternatives presented, don't just shit on other people gratuitously.

At this point, FF15 turned out how it turned out.

We should be asking more questions about what the DLC can do to patchwork some of the problems than what should have happend with the base game

I'm inclined to agree. I'm less interested in alternate universe what ifs and more in actually discussing how they can improve the current package with story patches and DLC. Obviously there's not much they can do to fix everything unless they're willing to add cut content back into the game but they can at least fix some things.

Also, I like the bros and hope their dlc is good but I have to admit I'd rather Square focused their efforts on a meaty DLC package (like Artorias or Blood and Whine) than a few (likely) bite-sized experiences that probably will need to introduce new mechanics that won't be relevant outside their contexts.

 

[Adaren]

Removing the arranged marriage from the Noctis+Luna relationship seems like an easy way to make their subplot more emotional.

To be honest, if it wasn't for the ending, I wouldn't even be sure if Noctis cared for Luna beyond some vague childhood nostalgia.

 

[Byvar]

The thing is that they made the game to develop the engine, and not the engine to develop the game. They spent a lot of their budget on open world streaming algorithms and assets for that open world, in different LoDs, while they could instead have settled with smaller zones a la KH and no airship (which they didn't need, but they decided to implement it anyway so the engine could handle that too), but with a much more developed story. That's how I think they could have "fixed" it.
It's great that they decided to be ambitious on a tech level, but the game isn't that much better for it IMO.