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[Pureauthor]

Nintendo isn't "worried" they still sell millions of copies of games, just as they always have. And they are continuing to grow.

Well, the rate at which they're growing is slowing drastically, and that's almost as bad as not actually growing.

 

[FoxMcCloudDS]

When anyone with a cell phone is holding a gaming capable device in their hands or in their pocket why would they bother adding another device in their pocket that is a side function on their phone?

Well that's just it. It is just a side function. It doesn't offer the same level of content that most of the real gamers want. Which is why people still buy their games from Nintendo after owning a smartphone.

I think they should do a better chart and just survey 10,000 people with smartphones and ask them if they ever bought a DS, and if so, will they continue to buy games for that now that they have a smartphone.

I am pretty sure after your 30 hours into angry birds, you would probably want something a little more solid in your pocket like a zelda or a mario.

But, hey, I know some people have actually dumped their handhelds due to iphone/android. I don't think that the 1% of people that did would worry Nintendo that much.

 

[Jokeropia]

the strangest part of this is that PSP didn't lose much of the pie from the year before & Android & iOS mostly ate into the DS pie.


I guess when you have a small piece of pie you don't have to worry too much about anyone asking for it lol

I'm surprised that the PSP has held on to its percentage so well. Best handheld ever keeps on chugging.

57/70 = 0,814285714285714
9/11 = 0,818181818181818

PSP and DS lost a virtually identical part of their share.

 

[bob page]

It doesn't offer the same level of content that most of the real gamers want.

Here we go!

 

[Dabanton]

Well that's just it. It is just a side function. It doesn't offer the same level of content that most of the real gamers want. Which is why people still buy their games from Nintendo after owning a smartphone.

I think they should do a better chart and just survey 10,000 people with smartphones and ask them if they ever bought a DS, and if so, will they continue to buy games for that now that they have a smartphone.

I am pretty sure after your 30 hours into angry birds, you would probably want something a little more solid in your pocket like a zelda or a mario.

But, hey, I know some people have actually dumped their handhelds due to iphone/android. I don't think that the 1% of people that did would worry Nintendo that much.

What's a 'real gamer'?

A 'real gamer' to me is somebody who doesn't care what their playing a game on as long it's enjoyable.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Well that's just it. It is just a side function. It doesn't offer the same level of content that most of the real gamers want. Which is why people still buy their games from Nintendo after owning a smartphone.

I think they should do a better chart and just survey 10,000 people with smartphones and ask them if they ever bought a DS, and if so, will they continue to buy games for that now that they have a smartphone.

I am pretty sure after your 30 hours into angry birds, you would probably want something a little more solid in your pocket like a zelda or a mario.

The question isn't about whether they'd "dump handhelds for phones", it's whether or not a) they'd buy fewer things on handhelds and more on phones and b) whether or not phones are exploiting a growth avenue that handhelds aren't able to.

I mean, let's say you want to play Bejeweled. Your options are $20/$30/$40/whatever on handhelds, or $2 on a phone. Which do you pick? I guess you can reply with "But I don't play Bejeweled to begin with", but the more categories of stuff you do that for, the more you demonstrate the impact of phones on a larger group of people, even if not on you.

 

[bob page]

What's a 'real gamer'?

I guess a "real gamer" is someone who won't open their eyes to alternative forms of gaming.

I guess I'm not a "real gamer," even though I own a PSP, DS, iPhone, iPad, PS3, 360, and gaming PC.

 

[dream]

A real gamer is someone who takes their name from a Nintendo character and a Nintendo handheld and uses a picture of a Nintendo character as their avatar. Duh.

 

[Warm Machine]

Which is why people still buy their games from Nintendo after owning a smartphone.

I stopped completely. I haven't bought a DS game since getting my iPhone. I can't be bothered with paying $30 for a physical cart that I have to carry with me along with the dozen other carts I have. A SSD or HDD is by far more convenient way of travelling with multiple games and I refuse to get an R4.

I am pretty sure after your 30 hours into angry birds, you would probably want something a little more solid in your pocket like a zelda or a mario..

If I wanted something more solid I'd play Death Rally, NOVA, Real Racing, or Infinity Blade among others. Besides, the Zelda and Mario games I far prefer the console versions of as opposed to the hand held versions.

But, hey, I know some people have actually dumped their handhelds due to iphone/android. I don't think that the 1% of people that did would worry Nintendo that much.

It could be 1% now...but that number is only going to increase. There is also the assumption that the input method on the iphone is going to remain a touch screen only forever. When gaming becomes a bigger market for Apple they will expand the level of control if demanded by the market. If it is a rear touch pad or button layout or something they can be guaranteed 100% compatibility with all current games on the app store by maintaining the touch screen and adding this new input method after the fact.

 

[charlequin]

I can certainly attest to this. I don't miss the DS or PSP at all after gaming on the iPod touch 4 since last September. I know I'm not the only one, either. There are PLENTY of games on iOS now that can satisfy someone who needs a little gaming on the go without having to buy a DS/PSP.

I think this really points to the nature of this discussion: you have a bunch of people who were always console gamers, who never actually cared for handheld gaming, who wanted slight entertainment on the go and "beefy" games on consoles at home -- the people who would always post quizzical variants of "why would you play a handheld game at home" in threads on the topic -- who would buy something like a DS to serve that on-the-go need, but were never super-excited about it. Something like an iPhone is actually perfectly suited to these people's needs, to the degree that it really does entirely eclipse any value they ever got out of dedicated handhelds.

Meanwhile, the audiences that actually affirmatively enjoyed handheld gaming -- kids, the people we used to call "casual gamers" ten years ago, people who are into JRPGs or 2D platformers or adventure games or wacky-experimental-crap, etc. are often like "What? Of course iOS doesn't replace handhelds."

I don't think the second market is anything like the full total of handheld sales from last generation, but there are a lot of assumptions that most of the market is the first category, which I really don't think is accurate at all.

 

[dream]

I think this really points to the nature of this discussion: you have a bunch of people who were always console gamers, who never actually cared for handheld gaming, who wanted slight entertainment on the go and "beefy" games on consoles at home -- the people who would always post quizzical variants of "why would you play a handheld game at home" in threads on the topic -- who would buy something like a DS to serve that on-the-go need, but were never super-excited about it. Something like an iPhone is actually perfectly suited to these people's needs, to the degree that it really does entirely eclipse any value they ever got out of dedicated handhelds.

Meanwhile, the audiences that actually affirmatively enjoyed handheld gaming -- kids, the people we used to call "casual gamers" ten years ago, people who are into JRPGs or 2D platformers or adventure games or wacky-experimental-crap, etc. are often like "What? Of course iOS doesn't replace handhelds."

I don't think the second market is anything like the full total of handheld sales from last generation, but there are a lot of assumptions that most of the market is the first category, which I really don't think is accurate at all.

Personally, I've always preferred handheld gaming to console gaming ever since my parents bought me the original Gameboy. Shit, I even have a Nomad. The 3DS is the first handheld I haven't even considered buying and I have to think that at least part of the reason for that is because the iPhone came out somewhere in between the DS and the 3DS launches.

I would love to have stuff like Harvest Moon and The World Ends With You on iOS. I think they'll come eventually. In the meantime, there are other games on iOS that I enjoy playing just as much.

 

[Opiate]

A few points.

1) Lumping Google in with Apple here is misleading for people who aren't paying attention to the industry more generally. Please note: Apple is way, way ahead of Google in this sector. People may find this confusing because Android is doing so well more generally (it's rapidly surpassing iPhone in phone marketshare), but that has not as of yet translated to significant game sales. It's probably worth including Android because eventually it could get better, but that's not where we are now.

2) I don't know if Sony or Nintendo has more to lose from Apple and Google's growth. Nintendo is the obvious choice, and people are largely focusing on them, because Nintendo has openly criticized the iOS model and because many of their blockbuster games last generation have clearly been consumed by iOS, such as Brain Training. On the other hand, Sony's entire purpose for being a games machine manufacturer is to create a trojan horse convergence device, which the PSP certainly tried to be. Furthermore, the PSP has ceded significantly more share over the last three years than the DS has, suggesting that empirically it may be the PSP-as-convergence-device that has been the hardest hit segment of the market thus far (PSP and DS lost similar market share last year, but PSP lost significantly more than DS the year before that). That could just be a coincidence (that is, it could be that the PSP was dying anyway), but it's worth noting as a possibility, and that empirically we've seen the PSP market falter much faster than the DS one.

Therefore, I see this as a very real and immediate but not existential threat to Nintendo, while it is a more remote, distant but truly existential threat to Sony. I'm not sure who to call the "biggest loser" there.

3) People are focusing on handhelds right now, and I agree that right now, that is the market under greatest assault. However, anyone who cannot project this just a few years in to the future and see it threatnening consoles isn't being imaginative here. I believe all portables -- that includes the 3DS and PSP2, not just the iPhone, iPad and Android -- are going to be threat to consoles in a few years. They already are in Japan.

 

[bob page]

I think this really points to the nature of this discussion: you have a bunch of people who were always console gamers, who never actually cared for handheld gaming, who wanted slight entertainment on the go and "beefy" games on consoles at home -- the people who would always post quizzical variants of "why would you play a handheld game at home" in threads on the topic -- who would buy something like a DS to serve that on-the-go need, but were never super-excited about it. Something like an iPhone is actually perfectly suited to these people's needs, to the degree that it really does entirely eclipse any value they ever got out of dedicated handhelds.

Meanwhile, the audiences that actually affirmatively enjoyed handheld gaming -- kids, the people we used to call "casual gamers" ten years ago, people who are into JRPGs or 2D platformers or adventure games or wacky-experimental-crap, etc. are often like "What? Of course iOS doesn't replace handhelds."

I don't think the second market is anything like the full total of handheld sales from last generation, but there are a lot of assumptions that most of the market is the first category, which I really don't think is accurate at all.

I don't think that's entirely true either, seeing as a lot of iOS gamers, including myself, play them at home (and not necessarily exclusive to on-the-go). I think it has much more to do with the type of game & price. Like I, and others, have stated previously, I just don't find interest in my PSP & DS because of the "cost-benefit," if you will.

It's easy to make generalizations about things unfamiliar to us. But that doesn't mean one is right in doing so.

 

[SmokyDave]

Something I like about the iOS games model is the frequent sales. It's cool when you check the store during breakfast and then notice that high profile game you umm'd and aah'd over is now 59p, especially if price was your original reason for not buying it earlier. There's sometimes another bonus; sales coinciding with large, free updates. Similar to Steam really, excellent value for money. Although there are bargains to be had with physical games in shops and online, the convenience of DD has completely won me over.

I'm not ashamed to say that my favourite 59p purchase was the gameloft SC2 ripoff. It's so damned slick.

 

[charlequin]

"iOS/Android games = flash crap/browser shit" is such a cop out that's getting real old.

The trouble, really, is that "iOS is $1-5 browser games" is a disingenuous argument, but so too is "iOS has a content library offering comparable genre depth breadth to handhelds/consoles, with titles of equivalent content-richness." It's a different market whose content is in a very different shape; there's plenty of good stuff and some very in-depth stuff, but it looks pretty distinct as a whole from handhelds, just as handhelds do from consoles.

This is very simplified, but I think if you mapped platforms on a complexity scale, something like:

mobile <<<<< handhelds <<<<< console <<<<< PC

would not be wildly inaccurate, assuming you're talking about the complexity and richness of the top-end titles on each platform since all four have made huge strides in becoming more open to simple, low-budget content over the last five years.

Which kinda proves the old adage of "the best camera is the one you have with you" true.

That's interesting, because I think far and away the effect of the iPhone camera is that it makes it possible for far more people to have a camera that takes decent casual snapshots with them and not that it actually replaces sales of dedicated cameras that much.

I mean, let's say you want to play Bejeweled. Your options are $20/$30/$40/whatever on handhelds, or $2 on a phone. Which do you pick? I guess you can reply with "But I don't play Bejeweled to begin with", but the more categories of stuff you do that for, the more you demonstrate the impact of phones on a larger group of people, even if not on you.

I mean, I think this is pretty straightforwardly why Nintendo moved upmarket with the 3DS by pitching it more directly to gamers and less as a casual-everybody system.

There is also the assumption that the input method on the iphone is going to remain a touch screen only forever.

The input method on the iPhone will remain a touch screen only forever.

 

[bob page]

The trouble, really, is that "iOS is $1-5 browser games" is a disingenuous argument, but so too is "iOS has a content library offering comparable genre depth breadth to handhelds/consoles, with titles of equivalent content-richness." It's a different market whose content is in a very different shape; there's plenty of good stuff and some very in-depth stuff, but it looks pretty distinct as a whole from handhelds, just as handhelds do from consoles.

This is very simplified, but I think if you mapped platforms on a complexity scale, something like:

mobile <<<<< handhelds <<<<< console <<<<< PC

would not be wildly inaccurate, assuming you're talking about the complexity and richness of the top-end titles on each platform since all four have made huge strides in becoming more open to simple, low-budget content over the last five years.

Let's take a look at the top selling Nintendo DS games:

New Super Mario Bros. (26.21 million)[2]
Nintendogs All versions (23.26 million)[3]
Mario Kart DS (20.70 million)[2]
Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day! (18.72 million)[3]
Pokémon Diamond and Pearl (17.39 million)[4]
Brain Age 2: More Training in Minutes a Day! (13.71 million)[5]
Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver (11.72 million)[2]
Animal Crossing: Wild World (10.79 million)[5]
Super Mario 64 DS (8.64 million)[3]
Mario Party DS (7.07 million)[3

How is the vast majority of this list that different than the offerings of the top iOS titles? I understand platformers like Super Mario 64 that work better with real buttons, but what about the rest? I'm not really seeing the gap in "complexity and richness". I understand there are some extremities, but you could say that about both platforms. I can only imagine how well they would have sold if they would have released for the iOS.

 

[dream]

3) People are focusing on handhelds right now, and I agree that right now, that is the market under greatest assault. However, anyone who cannot project this just a few years in to the future and see it threatnening consoles isn't being imaginative here. I believe all portables -- that includes the 3DS and PSP2, not just the iPhone, iPad and Android -- are going to be threat to consoles in a few years.

Yeah. I don't think people realize how fast technology advances in the mobile space. The iPad saw at least a 5x GPU performance increase in 1 year. With consoles being stuck on a 5 year lifecycle, there's going to be a time when handhelds outstrip consoles just because it's unfeasible to expect users and developers to move to a shorter upgrade cycle.

 

[Opiate]

I mean, I think this is pretty straightforwardly why Nintendo moved upmarket with the 3DS by pitching it more directly to gamers and less as a casual-everybody system.

I still think this was a very bad idea. You have mentioned, in defense of Nintendo, that they had to choose between fighting Sony and fighting Apple, and that fighting Apple is a lot harder than fighting Sony. I don't disagree with your logic, but I'd point out that it assumes the rewards are equivalent.

Losing to Apple in the "casual" segment could quite realistically be more profitable than beating Sony in the "hardcore" segment. The "hardcore" segment just hasn't been very profitable for the last few years, and I'd personally avoid the market segment unless I was absolutely cornered in to it. Which I don't feel Nintendo was.

 

[Tobor]

That's interesting, because I think far and away the effect of the iPhone camera is that it makes it possible for far more people to have a camera that takes decent casual snapshots with them and not that it actually replaces sales of dedicated cameras that much.

Cisco just closed Flip after spending $600 million on them 2 years ago, the market evaporated. The low end point and shoot market is under assualt as well.

Let's take a look at the top selling Nintendo DS games:

How is the vast majority of this list that different than the offerings of iOS gaming? I understand platformers like Super Mario 64 that work better with real buttons, but what about the rest? I'm not really seeing the gap in "complexity and richness". I understand there are some extremities, but you could say that about both platforms. I can only imagine how well they would have sold if they would have released for the iOS.

Well said.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Come on nintendo bring out a damn smartphone.

 

[charlequin]

I don't think that's entirely true either, seeing as a lot of iOS gamers, including myself, play them at home (and not necessarily exclusive to on-the-go). I think it has much more to do with the type of game & price. Like I, and others, have stated previously, I just don't find interest in my PSP & DS because of the "cost-benefit," if you will.

Sub out "play on the go" for "in short bursts" or what have you, then. Phones (in their current incarnation, with the types of market structures they currently have) are a straightforward substitutionary good for handhelds if one is interested in a particular subset of their content library, but a pretty poor one for other parts of that library. One cannot really construct a serious argument that an iPT is a real replacement for a DS as a system for (say) platformers, RPGs or adventure games.

1) Lumping Google in with Apple here is misleading for people who aren't paying attention to the industry more generally.

Yup. Google's marketshare here is pretty close to effectively zero.

Therefore, I see this as a very real and immediate but not existential threat to Nintendo, while it is a more remote and distant but truly existential threat to Sony. I'm not sure who to call the "biggest loser" there.

I agree. There's very little that would convince me this was an existential threat to Nintendo (basically, serious loss of interest in Nintendo's most perennial properties, which there's actively negative evidence of right now) but a lot that it could be for Sony -- they're really squeezed into a very narrow niche

3) People are focusing on handhelds right now, and I agree that right now, that is the market under greatest assault. However, anyone who cannot project this just a few years in to the future and see it threatnening consoles isn't being imaginative here.

I think it's extremely likely that the endpoint of this whole market upheaval is portable electronic devices that dock to a TV and wirelessly connect to controllers and other input methods, probably within 10 years.

I still think this was a very bad idea. You have mentioned, in defense of Nintendo, that they had to choose between fighting Sony and fighting Apple, and that fighting Apple is a lot harder than fighting Sony. I don't disagree with your logic, but I'd point out that it assumes the rewards are equivalent.

Quite frankly, I think Nintendo's chances of beating Apple on their own turf was zero; the in-built advantage of the iPhone itself is too big to overcome for a company concerned about profitability. Going back to the core gaming market is crappy for Nintendo but it's better than throwing away money on a guaranteed loss.

 

[Stumpokapow]

How is the vast majority of this list that different than the offerings of the top iOS titles? I understand platformers like Super Mario 64 that work better with real buttons, but what about the rest? I'm not really seeing the gap in "complexity and richness". I understand there are some extremities, but you could say that about both platforms. I can only imagine how well they would have sold if they would have released for the iOS.

charlequin isn't arguing that the phones can't technically do any of those titles, just that the software available doesn't reflect that (I'm not sure if he's arguing that it's structurally impossible due to cost concerns or if it just hasn't yet done it)

I think there are definitely titles on iOS that are as deep and rich as any on DS/PSP, but the average depth is lower. I'm okay with that, though.

 

[Of All Trades]

How is the vast majority of this list that different than the offerings of the top iOS titles? I understand platformers like Super Mario 64 that work better with real buttons, but what about the rest? I'm not really seeing the gap in "complexity and richness". I understand there are some extremities, but you could say that about both platforms. I can only imagine how well they would have sold if they would have released for the iOS.

Er, you can't post one list without posting the other. It also conveniently ignores the other half of the quote regarding consoles.

Well said.

Coming from the person who made a claim regarding genre controls in genres that have just terrible representation in the iOS market.

 

[dream]

One cannot really construct a serious argument that an iPT is a real replacement for a DS as a system for (say) platformers, RPGs or adventure games.

Well, no, not at the moment. Then again, we can't really say the 3DS is a strong platform for those genres either (ignoring backwards compatibility). That seems important to consider as we transition from one generation to the next, no?

edit: I know Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon will arrive on the 3DS eventually. But when someone only has so much money to spend on electronics, I think they're going to buy the thing that does a lot of different things right now.

 

[commish]

charlequin isn't arguing that the phones can't technically do any of those titles, just that the software available doesn't reflect that (I'm not sure if he's arguing that it's structurally impossible due to cost concerns or if it just hasn't yet done it)

I think there are definitely titles on iOS that are as deep and rich as any on DS/PSP, but the average depth is lower. I'm okay with that, though.

That's obviously the case, but I think it's changing. Part of the problem is that people do not want to spend more than $5 on a game. I think we can all agree that anything done on a PSP or DS can be done on an iphone/ipad, but it's hard for devs to justify spending that capital when they can't make it up as easily given the pricing restraints of the current iOS market. It's too bad, really, because I would pay a lot of money to have some of my favorite ds/psp games on my phone (thus allowing me to carry them with me everywhere I go). I'd pay $50 right now for an Etrian Odyssey for my iphone.

 

[bob page]

Come on nintendo bring out a damn smartphone.

They can make a dozen smartphones but they still won't have the App Store (Apple's greatest asset). Once people own an iPhone/iPod/iPad, they'll be hesitant to switch to another platform because they'll lose the ability to transfer their purchases over. If Nintendo tries to replicate the App Store, they'll have to compete with 100 million users who have already downloaded games/apps to their iOS. Good luck trying to convince them to use a different platform, if that happens.

 

[AstroLad]

It's too bad, really, because I would pay a lot of money to have some of my favorite ds/psp games on my phone (thus allowing me to carry them with me everywhere I go). I'd pay $50 right now for an Etrian Odyssey for my iphone.

Seriously. Not just that I would pay for existing titles, but I would pay for greater quality and depth. The $1 and $5 walls are tough. Glad to see great games like Carcassonne (never been on sale!) occasionally break through it.

 

[Tobor]

Er, you can't post one list without posting the other. It also conveniently ignores the other half of the quote regarding consoles.

Coming from the person who made a claim regarding genre controls in genres that have just terrible representation in the iOS market.

Well, we can certainly disagree. I think there are more than enough quality titles to justify what I said.

charlequin isn't arguing that the phones can't technically do any of those titles, just that the software available doesn't reflect that (I'm not sure if he's arguing that it's structurally impossible due to cost concerns or if it just hasn't yet done it)

I think there are definitely titles on iOS that are as deep and rich as any on DS/PSP, but the average depth is lower. I'm okay with that, though.

What he said.

 

[krypt0nian]

With the iPad2 being able to connect to displays via HDMI, who else (raise your hands) sees Apple bringing out BT controllers with a future iPad?

 

[poppabk]

Yeah. I don't think people realize how fast technology advances in the mobile space. The iPad saw at least a 5x GPU performance increase in 1 year. With consoles being stuck on a 5 year lifecycle, there's going to be a time when handhelds outstrip consoles just because it's unfeasible to expect users and developers to move to a shorter upgrade cycle.

The ipad advanced so quickly because it was underpowered relative to its size to begin with, not because of some miraculous advancement in mobile tech, the 3GS -> 4 was a marginal improvement in power.

 

[Tobor]

That's obviously the case, but I think it's changing. Part of the problem is that people do not want to spend more than $5 on a game. I think we can all agree that anything done on a PSP or DS can be done on an iphone/ipad, but it's hard for devs to justify spending that capital when they can't make it up as easily given the pricing restraints of the current iOS market. It's too bad, really, because I would pay a lot of money to have some of my favorite ds/psp games on my phone (thus allowing me to carry them with me everywhere I go). I'd pay $50 right now for an Etrian Odyssey for my iphone.

Etrian Odyssey is an example of a game that could increase revenue on iOS. Dropping the price to $10 and releasing digitally could be a win for them.

NIS, Atlas, Falcom, they should all be looking carefully at this market.

 

[Evlar]

I think there are definitely titles on iOS that are as deep and rich as any on DS/PSP, but the average depth is lower. I'm okay with that, though.

I haven't combed through the App Store in a while, but last time I was paying attention nothing available was in the same league as Monster Hunter Freedom Unite.

I mean, there's some hearty stuff: I own Chaos Rings, I thought Space Miner was fantastic. On the "deep and rich" question nothing approached the heavier PSP and DS titles.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

57/70 = 0,814285714285714
9/11 = 0,818181818181818

PSP and DS lost a virtually identical part of their share.

Well it certainly looks a lot worse for Nintendo on the chart.

 

[bob page]

Etrian Odyssey is an example of a game that could increase revenue on iOS. Dropping the price to $10 and releasing digitally could be a win for them.

NIS, Atlas, Falcom, they should all be looking carefully at this market.

Hell, even games like Clash of Heroes HD would be an awesome fit for iOS. At $10, I'm sure it would sell really well. It seems like some studios aren't aware or don't have the necessary programming experience to make it possible. But I'm sure it would be worth it for them in the end (and I'm sure more and more will start warming up to the idea in the near future). Hopefully we'll see some good things come out of E3.

 

[commish]

Etrian Odyssey is an example of a game that could increase revenue on iOS. Dropping the price to $10 and releasing digitally could be a win for them.

NIS, Atlas, Falcom, they should all be looking carefully at this market.

NIS and Atlas would make a killing. I'd buy everything. I'm currently enjoying Radiant Historia on my DS, but it's just annoying that I can't play on my iphone. There are so many times when I'm waiting in line, on the subway, etc that I'd enjoy a few minutes of the game.

 

[-viper-]

iPhone/iPad games have completely replaced my need for traditional handheld gaming for the last year.

What kind of games are you playing?

I don't like Angry Birds etc. I want to play games like Asphalt 6 and NFSHP but I have to use the gyroscope to steer. It sucks

 

[Captain Chaos]

They can make a dozen smartphones but they still won't have the App Store (Apple's greatest asset). Once people own an iPhone/iPod/iPad, they'll be hesitant to switch to another platform because they'll lose the ability to transfer their purchases over. If Nintendo tries to replicate the App Store, they'll have to compete with 100 million users who have already downloaded games/apps to their iOS. Good luck trying to convince them to use a different platform, if that happens.

I don't know about that, so you say Apples greatest asset is a easily copied shop front.

All Nintendo need to have on their smartphone is a decent browser, a facebook and Twitter app alongside copies of a few hundred of the most popular ios apps, then add their own greatest asset - their glorious back cat - game over.

Perhaps Nintendo will do to Apple what they're about to do to HD twins with project cafe.

 

[charlequin]

Let's take a look at the top selling Nintendo DS games:

How is the vast majority of this list that different than the offerings of the top iOS titles?

The bulk of complexity and depth in any platform's library comes not in at the top but in the large portion of titles in between the massive hits and the bombas. At least last generation, handhelds saw a bounty of such titles: content-rich strategy titles, huge numbers of high-quality and extremely in-depth RPGs, large numbers of expansive platformers, relatively complex adventure games, etc. These titles don't exist in comparable quantity or quality on iOS, while there are other areas that the App Store assuredly has far better (and more reasonably priced) representation than DS/PSP.

I mean, as I've said, no generalization is absolute, there's lots of room for rich and engrossing games on iOS (I'll praise Infinity Blade to the high heavens even though I hate that it's keeping Chair away from Shadow Complex 2), etc.

charlequin isn't arguing that the phones can't technically do any of those titles, just that the software available doesn't reflect that (I'm not sure if he's arguing that it's structurally impossible due to cost concerns or if it just hasn't yet done it)

That's about right.

In terms of structural stuff my argument is that the current pricing/sales environment doesn't and probably won't support prices higher than, say... $5-10, which puts something of a cap on game budgets -- I think generally for iOS games there's going to be a tradeoff where they can be very deep within a narrow scope (like Infinity Blade) or have a huge scope that's executed on a surface level (don't have a great example offhand for this) rather than usually both. (Lower average complexity is more what I'm shooting for than peak complexity, yes.)

(All necessary caveats like it's likely the phone market will shift in unexpected ways in the next 5 years so who knows how that'll look, eventually I expect iPods and handhelds and consoles to all converge together so who knows how that'll look, etc.)

 

[bob page]

What kind of games are you playing?

I don't like Angry Birds etc. I want to play games like Asphalt 6 and NFSHP but I have to use the gyroscope to steer. It sucks

I thought you could disable the gyrsoscope for those? Regardless, just look through the gaming thread on GAF- it usually does a better job for giving awareness for good games than the app store charts. Most people who actually know what they're talking about will agree with you that Angry Birds isn't anything special.

If you're into racing, definitely get Real Racing 2. Galaxy on Fire is another great one (and it has depth!). Also, Battleheart, NOVA 2, Bug Panic, Solipskier, Tiny Wings, Tilt to Live.

 

[commish]

I don't know about that, so you say Apples greatest asset is a easily copied shop front.

All Nintendo need to have on their smartphone is a decent browser, a facebook and Twitter app alongside copies of a few hundred of the most popular ios apps, then add their own greatest asset - their glorious back cat - game over.

Perhaps Nintendo will do to Apple what they're about to do to HD twins with project cafe.

They'd also need to develop a phone that is better than the iphone. Let's not forget that

 

[Tobor]

Hell, even games like Clash of Heroes HD would be an awesome fit for iOS. At $10, I'm sure it would sell really well. It seems like some studios aren't aware or don't have the necessary programming experience to make it possible. But I'm sure it would be worth it for them in the end (and I'm sure more and more will start warming up to the idea in the near future). Hopefully we'll see some good things come out of E3.

That's Capybara, and they certainly support iOS. The official word on that particular game is that it's not up to them, but to their publisher who owns the rights.

 

[Vinci]

Would it be possible for Google, or anyone else, to come up with a converter - a free program - that would convert iOS code into whatever code ran on its machine so as to negate (to some extent) Apple's massive advantage with the App Store? Basically, you make something for iOS, run it through the converter, and release it on multiple platforms more or less on the same day?

Just seems like, so long as the App Store remains the place to go for apps, Apple will always have an advantage in this area.

 

[bob page]

That's Capybara, and they certainly support iOS. The official word on that particular game is that it's not up to them, but to their publisher who owns the rights.

Yeah I was wondering, especially since they helped on Sword & Sworcery. Anyways, if it comes, out, I'll definitely rebuy it for iOS.

I don't know about that, so you say Apples greatest asset is a easily copied shop front.

All Nintendo need to have on their smartphone is a decent browser, a facebook and Twitter app alongside copies of a few hundred of the most popular ios apps, then add their own greatest asset - their glorious back cat - game over.

Perhaps Nintendo will do to Apple what they're about to do to HD twins with project cafe.

Well like I said in my post, it's all about the user base (the actual store front doesn't mean anything). If you have 100 million users of the device that likely already own games & apps for it, why would they abandon their purchases in anticipation of a Nintendo "app store?" Even if they did buy into Nintendo's effort, it's very unlikely that they would just forget about the Apple app store and stop making purchases for it.

 

[Captain Chaos]

They'd also need to develop a phone that is better than the iphone. Let's not forget that

That would be a piece of piss for Nintendo.

 

[Special J]

japan singlehandedly is saving the psp.

 

[dream]

Would it be possible for Google, or anyone else, to come up with a converter - a free program - that would convert iOS code into whatever code ran on its machine so as to negate (to some extent) Apple's massive advantage with the App Store? Basically, you make something for iOS, run it through the converter, and release it on multiple platforms more or less on the same day?

Just seems like, so long as the App Store remains the place to go for apps, Apple will always have an advantage in this area.

Palm tried that -- or at least provided porting tools for iOS games -- but few developers thought it was worth spending a day or two on.

 

[soldat7]

But, hey, I know some people have actually dumped their handhelds due to iphone/android. I don't think that the 1% of people that did would worry Nintendo that much.

How do you know that it's as high or as low as 1%? I haven't seen any data on this. The data we do have does not seem to be doing any favors for 'traditional' handheld stakeholders, however.

 

[krypt0nian]

I thought you could disable the gyrsoscope for those? Regardless, just look through the gaming thread on GAF- it usually does a better job for giving awareness for good games than the app store charts. Most people who actually know what they're talking about will agree with you that Angry Birds isn't anything special.

If you're into racing, definitely get Real Racing 2. Galaxy on Fire is another great one (and it has depth!). Also, Battleheart, NOVA 2, Bug Panic, Solipskier, Tiny Wings, Tilt to Live.

This. I'm not playing list wars only to be told that viper doesn't like those games. =)

That would be a piece of piss for Nintendo.

lol

 

[charlequin]

Then again, we can't really say the 3DS is a strong platform for those genres either (ignoring backwards compatibility). That seems important to consider as we transition from one generation to the next, no?

Certainly. I think I've said, I expect there to be a negative impact on handhelds from mobile devices (either shrinking their market or eating up parts of an expanding market and thereby slowing their growth), and it's possible that 3DS and NGP won't actually satisfy those of us who were handheld enthusiasts this gen (Pureauthor and I have both grumbled pretty extensively about the 3DS so far.)

Hell, even games like Clash of Heroes HD would be an awesome fit for iOS. At $10, I'm sure it would sell really well.

Clash of Heroes would be perfect for iPad, I agree. It'd probably sell decently at $10, but it'd probably generate more total revenue at $5 or $6.

 

[Warm Machine]

The input method on the iPhone will remain a touch screen only forever.

I undestand why you would think that because of Apple's minimalist and stringent industrial design heritage/mindset. However, the back panel of the iphone could be used as a second touch interface without messing up the look of the phone or confusing people. One of the direct control frustrations that gamers have is covering the screen with their fingers while playing a game they are trying to see. I agree that physical buttons or a dpad is highly unlikely.