• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Consolidating the Xbox 3 rumors: An SoC with ARM-core DSPs?

Since we've seen multiple rumors about what will be under the hood of Xbox3, I came up with that notion in one of the other threads. I tried to find all of the rumors so hopefully I didn't miss any.

First was MSNerd's Loop rumor.

The Xbox is another story altogether. With a heady mix of rumors, tips and speculation, I am now stating that Xbox codename “loop” (the erstwhile XboxTV) will indeed debut a modified Win9 core. It will use a Zune HD-like hardware platform—a “main” processor with multiple dedicated assistive cores for graphics, AI, physics, sound, networking, encryption and sensors. It will be custom designed by Microsoft and two partners (update: AMD, Imagination Technologies & Samsung are three names I’ve heard so far) based on the ARM architecture. It will be cheaper than the 360, further enabling Kinect adoption. And it will be far smaller than the 360. It will also demonstrate how Windows Phone could possible implement Win9’s dev platform on the lower end.

I only put that part in bold because that's how it was in the blog, but that said I don't remember it being there when we talked about it before. I was one of the ones originally believing this to be about a separate set-top box, but as we get more info about the SoC I think I'm getting a better perspective of this rumor in conjunction with more recent info. Also in the comments we see MSNerd talk about the possibility of one of the SKUs not having an optical drive. We see that apparently reaffirmed by Digital Foundry in a GameIndustry.biz article.

It's also believed that Microsoft will continue its successful two SKU strategy, and indeed take it much further with its new platform: a pared down machine is to be released as cheaply as possible, and positioned more along the lines of a set-top box (the use of 360 as a Netflix viewing platform in the US is colossal) and perhaps as a Kinect-themed gaming portal, while a more fully-featured machine with optical drive, hard disk and backward compatibility aimed at the hardcore would be released at a higher price-point.

(Eurogamer link for those not signed up with GameIndustry. It's free though.)



We also got rumors that focused more on an SoC.

- Semiaccurate had three articles dealing with the first leak, the tape out, and initial production.

- Fudzilla later corroborates this info.

- Then we have IGN focusing more on the GPU stating it's akin to a 6670 and gives an estimated power target comparison.

- And Kotaku corroborating IGN's info.

I've written off the "dual GPU" rumor for now as it sounded like something someone made up from info available at the time.


So going back to the title of the thread. What if we are looking at an SoC with ARM cores acting as DSPs? This is how it sounds to me as of now when looking at it from that perspective. This would allow them to gain more power without the potential heat problems. Also taking the GPU rumors together, what I could see is maybe the final GPU with 8 CUs (512 SPUs) which would make it comparable to both a 6670 and a 7000, GCN-based GPU. I don't know how possibly being on a 32nm process would affect that idea though

From there the lower SKU would in essence be similar to the 4GB XBox 360/Kinect bundle, but also possibly without an optical drive. The gamer SKU would have the same basic hardware plus other functions.

This idea sounds similar to what Masaaki Tsuruta of Sony described in their future plans as well.

Finally an article of interest is that in the first Semiaccurate link there is a link talking about AMD and ARM, but I don't know how much that would relate to this idea. This is just an idea, so what does GAF think when seeing the info together?
 
We will prob gets loads of rumors & leaks starting 1-2 months before E3 so like April and May. It'll be nice to have a thread like this.
 
You should've put "PSM:" in the thread title.

Yeah. I forget trollish titles are more effective.

Why on earth would you use ARM as a DSP?

Not being sarcastic, but to compensate for whatever the capabilities are of the SoC? It was the idea I came up with when looking at all the info. After all if they are targeting a 6670-level GPU, having an ARM that's dedicated to graphics should be able to make a difference without adding much to the heat of the console.

The main purpose was to get all the rumors under one roof for people to look at.
 

DCKing

Member
The second SoC rumour talked about production at IBM, which would mean there's an IBM CPU on there. I think the Xbox 3 is a more powerful next home console, and there will be a smaller 'XboxTV' based on some ARM chip that will be used to drive Kinect in a cheap way. Both consoles would run XBLA games but the Xbox3 would run 'big console' games as well. The XboxTV will be used as a way for Microsoft to win the Smart TV market primarily.

tl;dr: Two distinct Xbox platforms.

Also: most ARMs would not be the best choice for DSPs. An ARM as it usually referred to is a generic CPU.
 

DopeyFish

Not bitter, just unsweetened
There isn't many uses for one in a console environment lol that's why I'm kinda confused you'd have a low performance general purpose CPU on top of another general CPU which is high performance acting as a DSP (DSPs?) when it's far better to specialize and not waste silicon for something that may or may not be used :)

I just have a feeling that the term DSP isn't exactly what you were looking for lol
 
ARM will announce specific ARM 64 bit processors this year after announcing the ARMv8 64 bit architecture last year. It's worth looking at those for their suitability for console use. While they might just be officially announced this year, Microsoft and Sony may have none of their existence for a while. ARM did specifically say in an Edge magazine article they were chasing "console sockets".
 
That's more than likely the case. I went that route since they were called "assistive cores" in the MSNerd rumor.

An ARM 64 bit core could take the place of the Cell PPU. Toshiba already experimented with building an ARM "Cell" processor:

http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/07/04/2011/50858/Toshiba-reveals-hex-core-ARM-A9-TV-processor.htm

The ARM 64bit chip from AMCC, X Gene, is running at 2watts per core. Even if you went with a 6 core solution you would have obvious power consumption advantages over the conventional PPC route.
 

fernoca

Member
Though is weird how it is pointed out that Netflix use on 360 in the US is " colossal" as one of the reasons of why the next console could be a set-top box; when the PS3 was the one leading in use; until a few years ago were Wii jumped in use to basically as much as the PS3 and 360 combined (probably related to no longer needing a disc).


****

But overall I agree that is a great summary, though the lack of "responses/interest" is probably related to that since there's no actual info out there, the rumors for now are just rumors (unlike a Wii U which has actually been shown and developers has talked about it openly; so at leats some speculation could be made based on the rumors posted around).
 

Emitan

Member
Though is weird how it is pointed out that Netflix use on 360 in the US is " colossal" as one of the reasons of why the next console could be a set-top box; when the PS3 was the one leading in use; until a few years ago were Wii jumped in use to basically as much as the PS3 and 360 combined (probably related to no longer needing a disc).

IIRC ~50% of Netflix users are accessing it through a Wii.

EDIT: Yay! brain_stew is here!
 

aeolist

Banned
Although now that I'm reading about POWER7 it looks a bit large and power hungry for the kind of form factors and prices consoles will be aiming at next gen. I'm sure IBM is capable of designing something custom with a lower TDP but at some point ARM is going to be cheaper and simpler to implement and that time may be now.
 
ARM did specifically say in an Edge magazine article they were chasing "console sockets".

What did they mean by console sockets?

But overall I agree that is a great summary, though the lack of "responses/interest" is probably related to that since there's no actual info out there, the rumors for now are just rumors (unlike a Wii U which has actually been shown and developers has talked about it openly; so at leats some speculation could be made based on the rumors posted around).

Thanks and I tried to put them together in a way that tied them altogether to get some opinions on it, but it didn't work out like I thought.

Trying to figure this out as well. Makes no sense.

Well again that was just my guess, but what I was really hoping for was to get all the rumors together so people could give their views on what this thing is shaping up to be.

I think they're just talking about adding on NEON FPU units as DSPs?

That's plausible and MSNerd only referred to them as ARMs as it was easier for him maybe?
 
What did they mean by console sockets?

http://www.edge-online.com/features/gaming-arms-way?page=3

Quite clearly, there are some very high-profile console sockets that we’re going after. We certainly don’t want Intel securing them. And all those elements of our heritage – low power, high performance – they’re equally applicable to these machines. When you talk to Sony, they don’t want to put fans in a device in your living room – people don’t want to hear a fan.”



There are ARMv8 64 bit cores that will be announced this year that are more than up for the job of being a console CPU core with the added benefit of significant cost and power consumption savings. Sony and MS will be able to own and re-use the IP and save significantly on the licensing revenue they have to pay IBM.

Remember that MSnerd said something about 720 running a Windows Kernel. That is only possible with ARM or X86.

ARM based console hardware has the advantage of being reused for a Windows PC, laptop or set top box.

If you can save 40 to 50 watts of the TDP going with an ARM CPU that is more performance that you can allocate to the GPU. ARM would allow the best console design solution but time restriction of a 2013 or 2014 launch may not make it feasible.
 
Top Bottom