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Covid 19 Thread: [no bitching about masks of Fauci edition]

FunkMiller

Gold Member
Dude, this 'calling out' you keep crediting yourself for does nothing good. I don't see anyone being forced to do anything, that is something that only happens in your (admittedly vidid) imagination. All I'm seeing is a self-righteous dude who keeps shutting down conversation by calling people cowards, assholes, selfish while having very little ability to reflect on his own toxic behaviour. It doesn't help anyone, and like I said, if you word it in the way you do you are quite likely to cause people to further entrench themselves eventually leading to more death.

And all I see is someone constantly apologising for, and empathising with anti-vaxxers.

I'll refrain from entering into any ad hominem attacks on you though, and let other posters decide what your actual feelings are about anti-vax, given the posts you make here in defence of it.
 
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FunkMiller

Gold Member
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this isn't going to end EVER. Unless people start thinking critically about both the medical and political consequences of all this.

I see where you are coming from, but in my opinion you've reached a point where your fear for the disease has blinded you to the fact that the extremity of the political response has ZERO correlation to the penetration of infection within the general population.

That trend will continue as the pandemic recedes.

The canary in the coalmine is the way that vaccine induced immunity is somehow considered superior to naturally acquired immunity. This flies in the face of scientific fact and there is ample evidence to support this reality. However it gets downplayed both in the media and in legislation for reasons that have nothing to do with public health concerns. Its a pattern you can see played out across many dimensions related to the pandemic where the prevailing narrative is one to socially engineer public response, not to inform.

I'm not scared of covid in the slightest. Am vaxxed up and very happy about it.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
I'm not scared of covid in the slightest. Am vaxxed up and very happy about it.

If you're that confident, why then are you so concerned by the unvaccinated?

The vaccines aren't 100% protective on the immunized even under ideal conditions. Breakthrough cases are known to occur and rise based on time since vaccination. Noone wants to commit definitively to the assertion that they prevent transmission, especially as asymptomatic transmission has been accepted to be be possible.

If your concern is the extension of lockdowns, masking and other protocols, I suggest you look to government and health officials for relief. Because the current vaccines seem unlikely to me to be capable of pushing this virus and its variants to extinction.

And as I keep stressing while the virus itself remain at large in the world, the precautionary principle regarding its control will still apply!

Getting angry at vaccine refuseniks is futile. They aren't prolonging anything.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
If you're that confident, why then are you so concerned by the unvaccinated?

The vaccines aren't 100% protective on the immunized even under ideal conditions. Breakthrough cases are known to occur and rise based on time since vaccination. Noone wants to commit definitively to the assertion that they prevent transmission, especially as asymptomatic transmission has been accepted to be be possible.

If your concern is the extension of lockdowns, masking and other protocols, I suggest you look to government and health officials for relief. Because the current vaccines seem unlikely to me to be capable of pushing this virus and its variants to extinction.

And as I keep stressing while the virus itself remain at large in the world, the precautionary principle regarding its control will still apply!

Getting angry at vaccine refuseniks is futile. They aren't prolonging anything.

How about you try reading all of my recent posts. They will give you a clue as to why I'm still concerned about the unvaccinated.

Hint: it isn't to do with my welfare.
 
If your concern is the extension of lockdowns, masking and other protocols, I suggest you look to government and health officials for relief. Because the current vaccines seem unlikely to me to be capable of pushing this virus and its variants to extinction.

Getting angry at vaccine refuseniks is futile. They aren't prolonging anything.

this isn't about zero covid, this is about levers being pulled to relax various restrictions that are in place without a vaccine

and of course they're not prolonging anything because, luckily, the majority of people got the vaccine...we got here despite them (at least in the UK)
 
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Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
How about you try reading all of my recent posts. They will give you a clue as to why I'm still concerned about the unvaccinated.

Hint: it isn't to do with my welfare.

I look after a vulnerable person myself. Their welfare is my primary concern and of course I take every step possible to safeguard that.

However it doesn't alter my position, or weaken my arguments. Abusing skeptics is not the way forward.

Its fucking stupid. Ok, we separate off the unvaxed, then what? Do we start being selectictive about the type of people we stay in contact with based on how recently they got jabbed? Did they miss an appointment and have slipped to the point where efficacy is sub 40%? Stay away!

What about selection based on age? Based on social activity? Based on genetic predisposition or ooooohh race?

Where does it end? Because Covid is still going to be out there.
 
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If you're that confident, why then are you so concerned by the unvaccinated?

The vaccines aren't 100% protective on the immunized even under ideal conditions. Breakthrough cases are known to occur and rise based on time since vaccination. Noone wants to commit definitively to the assertion that they prevent transmission, especially as asymptomatic transmission has been accepted to be be possible.

If your concern is the extension of lockdowns, masking and other protocols, I suggest you look to government and health officials for relief. Because the current vaccines seem unlikely to me to be capable of pushing this virus and its variants to extinction.

And as I keep stressing while the virus itself remain at large in the world, the precautionary principle regarding its control will still apply!

Getting angry at vaccine refuseniks is futile. They aren't prolonging anything.
There is a domino effect of large number of unvaccinated serious covid cases. Hospitals have limited capacity for covid patients (as they cannot be mixed with non-covid ones) and once that is reached patients will have to be driven to another one. This takes up a lot of the capacity of ambulances that, instead of driving 15 minutes to deliver a patient now spend hours trying to find a space elsewhere, drive there and back. Delays in ambulances means people arrive later for serious illnesses or injuries and they start dying more and have to spend longer to recover, cutting even more into capacity. Staff gets overworked and frustrated at anti-vaxxers being assholes and report sick or quit. So even more capacity is lost.

So while I do not fear covid, I do fear having to wait hours for an ambulance to arrive in case of an accident. Because of people believing their natural immunity will prove them superior.
 
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I just saw this in the morning: IVM appears to work in some cases because (if I understand it correctly, im not medically trained) it kills parasites that would otherwise be dangerous to you if you are getting some kind of steroid for treating covid. It does not actually do anything for covid itself.


I am absolutely not an ivermectin expert, as I am not a pharmacologist, although I am medically trained. I do my best to not prescribe things that I don't understand the function or purpose of. Much of the earlier thoughts regarding ivermectin were in regards to anti-inflammatory properties. I will say I have never "dissed" ivermectin because of some of the hospitalists supporting it, and actually told some patients to be open regarding studies of it - something I would not do for Plaquenil. I know that I can create anti-inflammatory effects using other medications, so I just haven't understood the need for ivermectin.

My main concern with this is the professional relationship with patients. I am not a doormat to be manipulated, demanded upon by untrained persons, or screamed at, and I do not tolerate it.
 
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There is a domino effect of large number of unvaccinated serious covid cases. Hospitals have limited capacity for covid patients (as they cannot be mixed with non-covid ones) and once that is reached patients will have to be driven to another one. This takes up a lot of the capacity of ambulances that, instead of driving 15 minutes to deliver a patient now spend hours trying to find a space elsewhere, drive there and back. Delays in ambulances means people arrive later for serious illnesses or injuries and they start dying more and have to spend longer to recover, cutting even more into capacity. Staff gets overworked and frustrated at anti-vaxxers being assholes and report sick or quit. So even more capacity is lost.

So while I do not fear covid, I do fear having to wait hours for an ambulance to arrive in case of an accident. Because of people believing their natural immunity will prove them superior.
Your last line is really interesting to me, because I still don't understand the disconnect between why people think that they have a natural immunity [referencing their innate immunity] that is going to be stronger than what they describe as an "artificial" [adaptive] immunity. They are then also very willing to get MAB, which is fantastic, but suddenly they don't care about their natural immunity, and are ok with a truly artificial immune response at that point. It's possible they just don't understand it, even after I've explained it to them. We don't have enough MAB and I haven't been able to get my patients MAB in at least 3 weeks, whether they're vaccinated or not. I just had my first vaccinated patient get hospitalized, but I'm ordering oxygen repeatedly for my unvaccinated patients that don't need hospitalization because they've over-utilizing ER resources and cannot obtain oxygen there; I think, but don't know, because they don't have any available to give out.
 
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QSD

Member
And all I see is someone constantly apologising for, and empathising with anti-vaxxers.

I'll refrain from entering into any ad hominem attacks on you though, and let other posters decide what your actual feelings are about anti-vax, given the posts you make here in defence of it.
OK, let me do you a favor. I made a post like this once in april but it's in the old, locked Covid thread so let me reiterate

PSA

AFAIK the vaccines are safe

I work in an assisted living home for people with psychiatric problems. I have personally seen all (around 50) of our live-in clients be vaccinated with the Moderna vaccine. I was pretty nervous about it, because these are people with pretty fragile health on average, through years of smoking, lack of exercise and heavy psychiatric medication with numerous debilitating side effects. To my surprise, everyone was fine, not one of our clients suffered an adverse reaction or severe side effects. The only adverse reaction I personally know of is one of my colleagues who developed a severe rash after getting the 1st vax shot. I work for a very large care provider with an extensive, highly dynamic gossip circuit so if there were massive adverse reactions in one of our other locations I would have certainly heard about it.

In conclusion: based on these personal experiences I feel comfortable saying the vaccines are safe for all (except known medical exceptions of course like people who take immunosuppressants)

Go get one if you haven't!

PSA Ends
 

PanzerAzel

Member
Yeah, I’m not sure about the vaccine.

I‘m immunocompromised, a former cancer survivor since 20 with many years of chemo throughout my twenties and thirties. I also suffered a stroke this past January from (told anyway) damage inflicted on an artery from radiation done in my mid twenties.

Anyways, point is, I’m not in the best of health. I got vaccinated (Pfizer) back in April, second shot in May. Soon after my first shot, I began to develop a dry, unproductive hacking cough and strange feeling in lungs, as if I had pneumonia. This was a nuisance, but I didn’t pay it much mind. After my second shot, I began to develop sickly spells in my entire body, waves of sickness that are akin to sea sickness or food poisoning in their manifestations. A burning, infectious feeling through my body that is always present, but can worsen to hellish degrees, leaving me in misery. Crying over the toilet, vomiting and diarrhea, then going away over a period of minutes. It can be absolute misery, yet is unlike any illness I’ve ever had. Since May, I have been in the ER three times, seven primary, three walk in visits, two specialists, and a week in a mental hospital from suicidal ideation from being so miserable. Yet all doctors have no clue what is going on. All my bloodwork is fine, lung scans are clear. Only thing that has shown up in my labs is an elevated sedimentation rate and positive rheumatoid factor, non-specific indicators of inflammation. Yet whatever this is, it often leaves me bedridden and has been a marked decrease in my QoL.

I‘m not an anti-vaxxer. I believe in the science, I trust the medical community. But, I cannot shake the coincidence of timing of when this obscure illness began to when I got my first shot, and how it became significantly worse after my second. This is purely conjecture on my part, but I suspect I’ve had some exceptionally rare adverse reaction to the vaccine. Maybe it’s triggered something, like Lupus? I can think of no other cause.

Don’t know why I’m posting this, maybe in the hope someone knows something. I’m planning on a last resort to Mayo but am not optimistic they will find anything. This is flying under all screening, yet leaving me in misery.

I wish I hadn’t gotten the shot.
 

HoodWinked

Member
Yeah, I’m not sure about the vaccine.

I‘m immunocompromised, a former cancer survivor since 20 with many years of chemo throughout my twenties and thirties. I also suffered a stroke this past January from (told anyway) damage inflicted on an artery from radiation done in my mid twenties.

Anyways, point is, I’m not in the best of health. I got vaccinated (Pfizer) back in April, second shot in May. Soon after my first shot, I began to develop a dry, unproductive hacking cough and strange feeling in lungs, as if I had pneumonia. This was a nuisance, but I didn’t pay it much mind. After my second shot, I began to develop sickly spells in my entire body, waves of sickness that are akin to sea sickness or food poisoning in their manifestations. A burning, infectious feeling through my body that is always present, but can worsen to hellish degrees, leaving me in misery. Crying over the toilet, vomiting and diarrhea, then going away over a period of minutes. It can be absolute misery, yet is unlike any illness I’ve ever had. Since May, I have been in the ER three times, seven primary, three walk in visits, two specialists, and a week in a mental hospital from suicidal ideation from being so miserable. Yet all doctors have no clue what is going on. All my bloodwork is fine, lung scans are clear. Only thing that has shown up in my labs is an elevated sedimentation rate and positive rheumatoid factor, non-specific indicators of inflammation. Yet whatever this is, it often leaves me bedridden and has been a marked decrease in my QoL.

I‘m not an anti-vaxxer. I believe in the science, I trust the medical community. But, I cannot shake the coincidence of timing of when this obscure illness began to when I got my first shot, and how it became significantly worse after my second. This is purely conjecture on my part, but I suspect I’ve had some exceptionally rare adverse reaction to the vaccine. Maybe it’s triggered something, like Lupus? I can think of no other cause.

Don’t know why I’m posting this, maybe in the hope someone knows something. I’m planning on a last resort to Mayo but am not optimistic they will find anything. This is flying under all screening, yet leaving me in misery.

I wish I hadn’t gotten the shot.
the way the vaccine works the shot itself isn't what gives you the immunity, its your immune system's response that gives you the actual protection. Essentially the vaccine is tricking your body with a likeness of the virus that has made it into your system and starts employing all the counter measures. so all the adverse affects you had are likely symptoms you will get if you ever get actual covid however on top of that the actual active virus would be replicating and destroying cells so the adverse effects would be much more sustained.

but ya could be some kind of auto immune disorder. sometimes if you eat out and specifically fatty foods it can cause vomiting and diarrhea.
 

PanzerAzel

Member
the way the vaccine works the shot itself isn't what gives you the immunity, its your immune system's response that gives you the actual protection. Essentially the vaccine is tricking your body with a likeness of the virus that has made it into your system and starts employing all the counter measures. so all the adverse affects you had are likely symptoms you will get if you ever get actual covid however on top of that the actual active virus would be replicating and destroying cells so the adverse effects would be much more sustained.

but ya could be some kind of auto immune disorder. sometimes if you eat out and specifically fatty foods it can cause vomiting and diarrhea.
Yeah, I can’t offer much to that, as I’m not an expert on the vaccine aside having done some casual reading on it prior. It’s just how it works, tricking my immune system through my mRNA (as I‘m understanding it) has me suspicious that it’s triggered some form of auto immunity disorder.

It’s how it feels. Like my body is confused and doesn’t know what to do, like I’m constantly being tugged all over the place with very odd symptoms. It can cause retching out of nowhere, it turns my guts into soup rapidly and then back again, it can have me feeling like I want to die, and then vanish completely within ten minutes. And strangely, if it is an illness, my body doesn’t show any type of immune response to it that I’d expect concordant with the severity of the symptoms. CBC is fine, white cells are prime, nothing shows up. Yet it’s hellish when it gets very bad, and I say that having been through some pretty miserable shit in my life with chemo/stroke/narcotic detoxes/surgeries. I know it’s not what I’m eating or anything I’m doing behavior wise, I’ve taken measures to test that, something is going on. I can literally feel it inside me even when it’s low key. It’s like a festering malignance in my entire body, with a permanent feeling of presence in the lungs and a hacking, caustic cough.

All I have is the coincidence of timing though, so it’s frustrating because most doctors think I’m wearing a tinfoil hat, and perhaps they’re right? Maybe it’s completely unrelated and a remarkable coincidence of another illness arising at the exact time I got vaccinated. But the timing is precise, and I live a pretty uninteresting life. Not working, no social life, at home most of the time. I don’t know what else it could be.
 
Your last line is really interesting to me, because I still don't understand the disconnect between why people think that they have a natural immunity [referencing their innate immunity] that is going to be stronger than what they describe as an "artificial" [adaptive] immunity. They are then also very willing to get MAB, which is fantastic, but suddenly they don't care about their natural immunity, and are ok with a truly artificial immune response at that point. It's possible they just don't understand it, even after I've explained it to them. We don't have enough MAB and I haven't been able to get my patients MAB in at least 3 weeks, whether they're vaccinated or not. I just had my first vaccinated patient get hospitalized, but I'm ordering oxygen repeatedly for my unvaccinated patients that don't need hospitalization because they've over-utilizing ER resources and cannot obtain oxygen there; I think, but don't know, because they don't have any available to give out.
I see several differant reasonings to rationalize this. One of the main ones is rejecting vaccines are a lifestyle choice. People who were already very invested in health supplements, excercise and more esoteric ways of improving health feel that they are (and for a lot this is true) now better protected against disease then not just compared to fat slobs but also average people who don't spend that much time on their own body. And vaccines are seen as a threat, a cheat, getting as much benifit as years of 'living healthy' in seconds. And then there comes the extra anger at consequences of not being vaccinated.

Then there is the reasoning I see coming from various religions where the Scriptures forbid making a healthy person sick on purpose but also are fine with using the same cure (as long as not aborted fetuses are involved) on someone who is already sick. This considers all vaccines to be bad, not just covid ones.
 

QSD

Member
Yeah, I can’t offer much to that, as I’m not an expert on the vaccine aside having done some casual reading on it prior. It’s just how it works, tricking my immune system through my mRNA (as I‘m understanding it) has me suspicious that it’s triggered some form of auto immunity disorder.

It’s how it feels. Like my body is confused and doesn’t know what to do, like I’m constantly being tugged all over the place with very odd symptoms. It can cause retching out of nowhere, it turns my guts into soup rapidly and then back again, it can have me feeling like I want to die, and then vanish completely within ten minutes. And strangely, if it is an illness, my body doesn’t show any type of immune response to it that I’d expect concordant with the severity of the symptoms. CBC is fine, white cells are prime, nothing shows up. Yet it’s hellish when it gets very bad, and I say that having been through some pretty miserable shit in my life with chemo/stroke/narcotic detoxes/surgeries. I know it’s not what I’m eating or anything I’m doing behavior wise, I’ve taken measures to test that, something is going on. I can literally feel it inside me even when it’s low key. It’s like a festering malignance in my entire body, with a permanent feeling of presence in the lungs and a hacking, caustic cough.
Dude, reading this harrowing tale (sincerely, it does not sound like a good time so whatever else I hope you find some alleviation) does raise some red flags. One thing I want to point out to you is that you describe the feelings you have in great detail "I can literally feel it inside me even when it's low key, it's like a festering malginance....". In my experience (10+ years work in psychiatry) people can be very sick (e.g. have pretty advanced cancer for example, which would be a literal festering malignance) and they don't know something's wrong. Humans don't generally have the ability to discern that kind of internal stuff without the aid of medical technology unless it gets pretty bad. Otherwise there would be no late cancer diagnoses, when in fact they are quite common unfortunately. So I want to say that it's a possibility that the feelings you describe have an emotional rather than a physical cause. The way you describe it has a kind of catastrophizing ring to it (it's in my entire body) that definitely sets off some alarm bells. I don't know if you're seeing a mental health professional (which is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of) but I would recommend that you keep in contact with one. It really is fairly common for people to think that symptoms that are caused by psychological stress/strain are actually signs of physical illness because of the way the mind occludes things that make us feel vulnerable.

Were you already worried about the vax beforehand BTW?
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
Yeah, I’m not sure about the vaccine.

I‘m immunocompromised, a former cancer survivor since 20 with many years of chemo throughout my twenties and thirties. I also suffered a stroke this past January from (told anyway) damage inflicted on an artery from radiation done in my mid twenties.

Anyways, point is, I’m not in the best of health. I got vaccinated (Pfizer) back in April, second shot in May. Soon after my first shot, I began to develop a dry, unproductive hacking cough and strange feeling in lungs, as if I had pneumonia. This was a nuisance, but I didn’t pay it much mind. After my second shot, I began to develop sickly spells in my entire body, waves of sickness that are akin to sea sickness or food poisoning in their manifestations. A burning, infectious feeling through my body that is always present, but can worsen to hellish degrees, leaving me in misery. Crying over the toilet, vomiting and diarrhea, then going away over a period of minutes. It can be absolute misery, yet is unlike any illness I’ve ever had. Since May, I have been in the ER three times, seven primary, three walk in visits, two specialists, and a week in a mental hospital from suicidal ideation from being so miserable. Yet all doctors have no clue what is going on. All my bloodwork is fine, lung scans are clear. Only thing that has shown up in my labs is an elevated sedimentation rate and positive rheumatoid factor, non-specific indicators of inflammation. Yet whatever this is, it often leaves me bedridden and has been a marked decrease in my QoL.

I‘m not an anti-vaxxer. I believe in the science, I trust the medical community. But, I cannot shake the coincidence of timing of when this obscure illness began to when I got my first shot, and how it became significantly worse after my second. This is purely conjecture on my part, but I suspect I’ve had some exceptionally rare adverse reaction to the vaccine. Maybe it’s triggered something, like Lupus? I can think of no other cause.

Don’t know why I’m posting this, maybe in the hope someone knows something. I’m planning on a last resort to Mayo but am not optimistic they will find anything. This is flying under all screening, yet leaving me in misery.

I wish I hadn’t gotten the shot.

If you’re immunocompromised and a cancer survivor, you are perfectly entitled to feel cautious about the vaccine.

Of course you’re not an anti-vaxxer.

But you are someone being put at unnecessary risk by anti-vaxxers (healthy people with no good reason not to get jabbed) which is why they’re arseholes.

Speak to your healthcare provider for advice I suppose?
 
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PanzerAzel

Member
Dude, reading this harrowing tale (sincerely, it does not sound like a good time so whatever else I hope you find some alleviation) does raise some red flags. One thing I want to point out to you is that you describe the feelings you have in great detail "I can literally feel it inside me even when it's low key, it's like a festering malginance....". In my experience (10+ years work in psychiatry) people can be very sick (e.g. have pretty advanced cancer for example, which would be a literal festering malignance) and they don't know something's wrong. Humans don't generally have the ability to discern that kind of internal stuff without the aid of medical technology unless it gets pretty bad. Otherwise there would be no late cancer diagnoses, when in fact they are quite common unfortunately. So I want to say that it's a possibility that the feelings you describe have an emotional rather than a physical cause. The way you describe it has a kind of catastrophizing ring to it (it's in my entire body) that definitely sets off some alarm bells. I don't know if you're seeing a mental health professional (which is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of) but I would recommend that you keep in contact with one. It really is fairly common for people to think that symptoms that are caused by psychological stress/strain are actually signs of physical illness because of the way the mind occludes things that make us feel vulnerable.

Were you already worried about the vax beforehand BTW?
Yes, I see a therapist.

I’m highly, highly skeptical this was/is emotionally or mentally caused, it’s physiological. It causes vomiting, diarrhea, these sickly spells, and my chronic cough with a constant feeling of presence in my chest. Further, my labs are fine, but have shown elevated inflammation which has made them suspicious of lupus. The symptoms coincided and elevated with the shots, and curiously, as time has distanced me from them, they've seemed to settle a bit. It’s still present, but comparatively to immediately post inoculation the first few months after, it’s lessened in severity to the point of being tolerable. It was hellish for a few months, again, to the point I was institutionalized because not only was I in hell physically, but being told by various doctors I was the picture of health and that they could not help me plunged me into despair and tended me towards final solutions because I felt so helpless. I held on, and thankfully the symptoms have abated somewhat, but there are still bad days that leave me in bed.

No, I never was a bit hesitant about the vaccine. I didn’t think a thing of it actually, in fact I recall looking forward to getting it. The truth is, it never occurred to me even in my worst times it might be the cause, it’s only after I had a bit of retrospection and the ineffectiveness of diagnosis and repeated doctor visits did I notice a perfect coinciding of my shots with the escalation of my symptoms. I’ve also stumbled upon this, among others:


Much of this flies way over my head, but the general gist strikes home. I don’t know if this is what occurred, but apparently it appears to be hypothetically possible that for people with pre-existing auto-immune conditions, this type of vaccine may trigger a “flare” of symptoms in the manner of its mechanism. I’ve not been diagnosed with auto-immunity, but given my past history, I am certainly at elevated risk. All this to say, I don’t mean any of this to be a discouraging of vaccination for others, nor construed as an anti-vaxxer position. Even if this was caused by the vaccine, I wouldn’t argue that others shouldn't get the poke just because of my experience. Many are fine with it, as evidence and efficacy has established. But I do wish I’d researched a bit more prior to getting my shot, especially considering my medical history. I jumped at the chance, precisely because of it, and I think that was an error in judgement looking back.

I‘m not sure I’d agree with the seemingly overriding narrative that these vaccines are entirely harmless. My life has been a living hell for the past half year. Maybe the vaccine, maybe not….but more than a few pieces fall too perfectly into place for me to discount it entirely. I can tell you for certain I’ll not be getting my booster, and could I do it over again, would’ve taken my chances with Covid and worn a mask for others.
If you’re immunocompromised and a cancer survivor, you are perfectly entitled to feel cautious about the vaccine.

Of course you’re not an anti-vaxxer.

But you are someone being put at unnecessary risk by anti-vaxxers (healthy people with no good reason not to get jabbed) which is why they’re arseholes.

Speak to your healthcare provider for advice I suppose?
I have, many, many times over. They are at a loss, even in leads they once had.

As mentioned, I am currently pursuing going to Mayo for another opinion. Also have a doctor friend out of state who is interested in getting his hands on me.
 
Let's just say the disappearance of Governor Gavin Newsom just after his Moderna shot (13 days ago) is a very odd coincidence. They say it's a "family" reason but his wife is still well active on Twitter and has not given any valid reason explaining his total absence from public scene which is very bizarre from a very public person such as him. He also canceled a very important venue (the COP26 summit in Glasgow).

Coincidentally again in France the highest health authority just advised against Moderna vaccine for people under 30.
 

SpiceRacz

Member
I assume it was a booster for Newsom right?

Definitely a booster. Very unlikely he had a reaction though. Another news site suggested he had bell's palsy from his booster, but I would think that takes way longer than 2 weeks to go away.
 
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12Goblins

Lil’ Gobbie
I really doubt he would try to cover it up, as there is no shame in having side effects from the vaccine, and trying to cover anything up most likely backfire in his face and ultimately hurt his "cause"
 

ntropy

Member
CdOBcAds.jpeg
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
I really doubt he would try to cover it up, as there is no shame in having side effects from the vaccine, and trying to cover anything up most likely backfire in his face and ultimately hurt his "cause"
Exactly. There is nothing to hide. I don't understand why the anti-vax crowd hold up the occasional side effects as some kind "AHA!" gotcha kind of thing.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
One of the main proponents of Ivermectin to treat COVID, Dr. Pierre Kory, just had one of his studies retracted. The study was regarding the MATH+ treatment protocol that his group, the FLCCC, advocates for.


This might be an older version of the treatment because the study itself doesn't mention ivermectin, but the FLCCC website does.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
There's a great Nat Geo documentary on Disney+ called Fauci. It looks back upon his career in public health, focusing on the HIV / AIDS epidemic and of course COVID-19.

It's amazing how events repeat themselves. He's a scientist going by the best knowledge at the time, which changes of course. The very people he's working so hard to help, who do not understand the scientific process nor how the various government agencies work with one another, end up demonizing him in both childish and sadly ultra-violent ways (lots of death threats).

I didn't realize he's one of the most published researchers of all time, and also one of the most cited within the studies of others.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
There's a great Nat Geo documentary on Disney+ called Fauci. It looks back upon his career in public health, focusing on the HIV / AIDS epidemic and of course COVID-19.

It's amazing how events repeat themselves. He's a scientist going by the best knowledge at the time, which changes of course. The very people he's working so hard to help, who do not understand the scientific process nor how the various government agencies work with one another, end up demonizing him in both childish and sadly ultra-violent ways (lots of death threats).

I didn't realize he's one of the most published researchers of all time, and also one of the most cited within the studies of others.

Scared people generally want two things: certainties & somebody to blame. Fauci became the perfect target because he could not provide the first thing, and fit the bill for the second.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
I really am struggling to understand how anyone in their right mind would sacrifice their entire livelihoods to avoid getting a simple, easy jab.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
I really am struggling to understand how anyone in their right mind would sacrifice their entire livelihoods to avoid getting a simple, easy jab.
They don't realize that the alternative to the jab is potentially sacrificing their entire livelihoods because they've been misled to think that COVID isn't that bad, or that the vaccine is ineffective or dangerous.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
They don't realize that the alternative to the jab is potentially sacrificing their entire livelihoods because they've been misled to think that COVID isn't that bad, or that the vaccine is ineffective or dangerous.

Yeah, I know… but I genuinely can’t conceive of taking the active decision to pretty much ruin your life instead of just getting a needle in your arm that doesn’t hurt. Maybe it’s because I’ve had the vaccine, I don’t know. But it’s just crazy. Absolutely insane.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Yeah, I know… but I genuinely can’t conceive of taking the active decision to pretty much ruin your life instead of just getting a needle in your arm that doesn’t hurt. Maybe it’s because I’ve had the vaccine, I don’t know. But it’s just crazy. Absolutely insane.
It's easy for us to make that choice because we have reliable data that informs our risk assessment decisions. For them, their lack of good information means that in their own mind, they think they are saving their lives or participating in some kind of noble resistance movement. It's easy to make the wrong decision, if you mistakenly think you're making the right decision.
 

QSD

Member
Finally it's here, the long awaited discussion/debate between Yuri Deigin and Stuart Neil (standing in for Chris Kavanagh) about the lab leak hypothesis, as hosted by Rebel Wisdom

Hopefully about 2 hours of good discussion between people with a high degree of relevant expertise. Have various investments tailored to bypass existing gain--of-function research moratoria funded a pandemic-in-making? Or is it all a flight of fancy and have bats brought this batshit situation upon us?

 

QSD

Member
It's easy for us to make that choice because we have reliable data that informs our risk assessment decisions. For them, their lack of good information means that in their own mind, they think they are saving their lives or participating in some kind of noble resistance movement. It's easy to make the wrong decision, if you mistakenly think you're making the right decision.
A big difference is also that we generally trust the data we are presented with by the government. To my mind it's less that they lack access to good information, it seems to me more that somehow trust has eroded to the point where many people are more likely to believe Rogan than Biden or Fauci.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
A big difference is also that we generally trust the data we are presented with by the government. To my mind it's less that they lack access to good information, it seems to me more that somehow trust has eroded to the point where many people are more likely to believe Rogan than Biden or Fauci.
They definitely have access to the good information, but they choose to ignore it, or accept bad information instead, which means they lack the good information.

There's a lot of reasons that people filter their information in the way that they do. Trust is a part of it, but when tribal allegiance takes over independent critical thinking, then we get group think. Group think that leads to correct choices is not the best, but still acceptable. However, group think that leads to bad or harmful choices then leads to bad outcomes.

On the one hand, sure, the "elites"/"mainstream media"/"establishment" has done bad things in the past that harm their credibility on certain subjects. However, that doesn't mean that everything they do is terrible and that they're always lying. That turns skepticism into outright cynicism, and leads to bad pathways for reasoning. Cherry picking wins and losses from a "side" in order to craft a personal narrative happens a lot in humans, and it's happening a lot right now.
 

Narasumas

Member
Cherry picking wins and losses from a "side" in order to craft a personal narrative happens a lot in humans, and it's happening a lot right now.
I agree with a lot of your post, but the quoted excerpt stands out to me most. I feel like this quote exemplifies (wrong word?) almost everything wrong with most controversial issues today, on both sides.

I think we should all agree that tribalism divides, and we’ve partitioned ourselves as a society by constantly having access to those who agree with us, and having the convenience of not having to live with differing opinions as part of everyday life.
 

QSD

Member
They definitely have access to the good information, but they choose to ignore it, or accept bad information instead, which means they lack the good information.

There's a lot of reasons that people filter their information in the way that they do. Trust is a part of it, but when tribal allegiance takes over independent critical thinking, then we get group think.
Hmmm, with this point I'd say: isn't 'tribal allegiance' a heuristic by which people decide who to trust, in absence of full transparency of information? There is such an unfathomable deluge of 'information' around us, that any attempt at critical thinking starts with a need to triage that 'information' down to a reasonable amount that can be read critically and understood within a reasonable time frame. So how do you decide what to read and what not when you don't know much about the topic? I think we're back to trust-based heuristics then. It's inescapable to a certain extent I'm afraid.

(I don't know if you listened to that sam harris DTG episode? this kind of touches on what was happening there)

Group think that leads to correct choices is not the best, but still acceptable. However, group think that leads to bad or harmful choices then leads to bad outcomes.

As an aside: I don't know how well the 'group think' paradigm fits onto the the current social media situation. IIRC the term 'group think' is pretty old, it was first conceived of and researched before the advent of the internet, to describe processes that make group opinion align in meetings and such, when there is also significant social pressure from being in the same room together. I don't know if it's the best term to use in this situation, since people are more free to maneuver on social media and the cost of dissenting is lower and less immediate. I do fully acknowledge the problem though, I just don't know whether the extant research on 'group think' would extrapolate well to the current situation.

On the one hand, sure, the "elites"/"mainstream media"/"establishment" has done bad things in the past that harm their credibility on certain subjects. However, that doesn't mean that everything they do is terrible and that they're always lying. That turns skepticism into outright cynicism, and leads to bad pathways for reasoning. Cherry picking wins and losses from a "side" in order to craft a personal narrative happens a lot in humans, and it's happening a lot right now.
Don't disagree with anything you say here. There is a certain element of reflexive oppositionalism to this whole anti vax situation for sure, and it's especially pronounced in the US where refusing the vax just became a way to say let's go brandon. In that sense what is happening kind of reminds me of brexit, where a large contigent of the population just said screw it, I'm not voting for what you (the establishment) tell me, another completely cynical move. But if outright cynicism is the problem, how do we fight it? I don't think telling people who have basically lost hope/meaning and are making destructive choices that they're bad and stupid will help, that will only further entrench their cynicism. We need them to lower their defences, not fortify them.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
On the one hand, sure, the "elites"/"mainstream media"/"establishment" has done bad things in the past that harm their credibility on certain subjects. However, that doesn't mean that everything they do is terrible and that they're always lying. That turns skepticism into outright cynicism, and leads to bad pathways for reasoning. Cherry picking wins and losses from a "side" in order to craft a personal narrative happens a lot in humans, and it's happening a lot right now.

Every several years or so some news org or popular figure within it gets something wrong, perhaps trusts a shady source too much, or even stretches the truth. Redactions and corrections are later made, sometimes punishments are dealt - we've seen it all before. The conspiracy types use these sparse but corrected examples to claim that all legitimate sources of journalism are therefore lying. At the same time, paradoxically, they retreat to false news sources that outright lie to them every single day. You'll even see these people often concede that they know they're being lied to, they just no longer care (in the case of most of them, they never actually cared for the truth).
 
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