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Covid 19 Thread: [no bitching about masks of Fauci edition]

QSD

Member
it's worth mentioning, both Bret and Eric Weinstein are cranks. Bret has been pushing completely unfounded claims about vaccine safety. They trade on irrelevant credentials and spin conspiracy theories to audiences who have been fooled by surface level truthiness. And if you listen to e.g. Decoding the Gurus their claims to expertise fall apart, even in their chosen fields.


"surface level truthiness" is a weird way to say they come across as honest people. I've listened to decoding the gurus and their critiques certainly have merit, but I think that saying B+H credentials are completely irrelevant is overstating things. They both have PhD's and have an enthusiasm for science and are certainly talented at teaching/communicating it. The root problem that I discern here is one of trust in the mainstream scientific consensus. B+H are prone to think that truth doesn't always win the day in science as there are other incentives, political, financial or otherwise that may temporarily derail the process. I generally agree with that sentiment. Going against the consensus isn't 'conspiratorial thinking', it's just acknowledging that science is a human endeavour and as such it's prone to all kinds of sociological processes. My own field of social psychology went through a major reckoning with the whole replication crisis. Do you really believe that so many scientists could have botched their methodology so egregiously that dozens of oft-cited papers turned out to be bunk? You'd better believe it. There's a famous case of a social psychologist here in the netherlands, Diederik Stapel, who was often invited on talkshows and was generally well respected, but it turned out he had made up a bunch of his data sets, because he felt he was doing the right thing morally. The reason this wasn't discovered for years is trust. Science is based on trust, and trust needs to be earned, it can't just be demanded.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
"surface level truthiness" is a weird way to say they come across as honest people. I've listened to decoding the gurus and their critiques certainly have merit, but I think that saying B+H credentials are completely irrelevant is overstating things. They both have PhD's and have an enthusiasm for science and are certainly talented at teaching/communicating it. The root problem that I discern here is one of trust in the mainstream scientific consensus. B+H are prone to think that truth doesn't always win the day in science as there are other incentives, political, financial or otherwise that may temporarily derail the process. I generally agree with that sentiment. Going against the consensus isn't 'conspiratorial thinking', it's just acknowledging that science is a human endeavour and as such it's prone to all kinds of sociological processes. My own field of social psychology went through a major reckoning with the whole replication crisis. Do you really believe that so many scientists could have botched their methodology so egregiously that dozens of oft-cited papers turned out to be bunk? You'd better believe it. There's a famous case of a social psychologist here in the netherlands, Diederik Stapel, who was often invited on talkshows and was generally well respected, but it turned out he had made up a bunch of his data sets, because he felt he was doing the right thing morally. The reason this wasn't discovered for years is trust. Science is based on trust, and trust needs to be earned, it can't just be demanded.

I'm pretty sure none of the science reformers calling for increased rigor in social and medical sciences endorse statistically illiterate inferences (from non experts who aren't knowledgeable enough about research methods to know what counts as a good meta analysis). His mistakes are the errors they exposed.
 
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Chaplain

Member


Dr. Robert Malone is the inventor of mRNA Vaccine technology.
Mr. Steve Kirsch is a serial entrepreneur who has been researching adverse reactions to COVID vaccines.

Bret talks to Robert and Steve about the pandemic, treatment and the COVID vaccines.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member

Listened to the first 15 minutes of that and their smugness is honestly a bit insufferable. The message seems to be, "we all need to trust the scientific consensus at all times and never doubt or challenge it unless you have a degree that is specifically in whatever narrow field you're discussing." Basically they think the only people who should have the ability to dissent in regards to public health (or anything scientific) are the anointed experts.

The lady seems to accuse Bret of trying to overturn paradigms just through his podcast discussions, but that is not what he's doing at all. Basically, they are assuming a whole lot of intent on Bret's behalf. Would be nice if they tried to set up an actual discussion with them if they are so confident in their deboonking.
 
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QSD

Member
I'm pretty sure none of the science reformers calling for increased rigor in social and medical sciences endorse statistically illiterate inferences (from non experts who aren't knowledgeable enough about research methods to know what counts as a good meta analysis). His mistakes are the errors they exposed.
But this is entirely the problem, I'm a social psychologist by education, it's been 15 years since I've done any statistical analysis, and I was never that talented at it to begin with (one reason I don't work in research!) I'm in no position to adjudicate whether B+H are in error or Decoding the Guru's are. The bottom line is trust.
 

QSD

Member
Listened to the first 15 minutes of that and their smugness is honestly a bit insufferable. The message seems to be, "we all need to trust the scientific consensus at all times and never doubt or challenge it unless you have a degree that is specifically in whatever narrow field you're discussing." Basically they think the only people who should have the ability to dissent in regards to public health (or anything scientific) are the anointed experts.

The lady seems to accuse Bret of trying to overturn paradigms just through his podcast discussions, but that is not what he's doing at all. Basically, they are assuming a whole lot of intent on Bret's behalf. Would be nice if they tried to set up an actual discussion with them if they are so confident in their deboonking.
Yeah my feelings were the same. They were just repeating "trust the experts" ad nauseam. Man, the SIO podcast... since it's all the rage to attack people's character, the host, Thomas Smith, was the guy who debated Sargon of Akkad at some atheist conference and made a complete ass of himself. Fucking Sargon of Akkad, the sewer pipe of conservative youtube, owned this guy.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
But this is entirely the problem, I'm a social psychologist by education, it's been 15 years since I've done any statistical analysis, and I was never that talented at it to begin with (one reason I don't work in research!) I'm in no position to adjudicate whether B+H are in error or Decoding the Guru's are. The bottom line is trust.
right, both Bret and Eric manufacture trust by telling self serving stories about academic corruption (which Decoding the Gurus and others exposed as nonsense) to poison their audience against looking critically into what they're saying (this is not a novel tactic of gurus, it's all over the place among fad doctors, alternative medicine hawkers etc). no one will stop you buying into their narrative but others are free to think you're silly implying you trust them because they come off as genuine

Yeah my feelings were the same. They were just repeating "trust the experts" ad nauseam. Man, the SIO podcast... since it's all the rage to attack people's character, the host, Thomas Smith, was the guy who debated Sargon of Akkad at some atheist conference and made a complete ass of himself. Fucking Sargon of Akkad, the sewer pipe of conservative youtube, owned this guy.
the person in the episode debunking them is not him, but you can deflect if you wish
 
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D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
right, both Bret and Eric manufacture trust by telling self serving stories about academic corruption (which Decoding the Gurus and others exposed as nonsense) to poison their audience against looking critically into what they're saying. no one will stop you buying into their narrative but others are free to think you're silly implying you trust them because they comes off as genuine

Where did he say he trusted them? You're doing the same thing as the people in the podcast you shared and extrapolating intent that isn't clearly there.

the relevant expert in the episode is not him, but you can deflect if you wish

The Thomas dude did his fair share of talking, but who is the relevant expert? I may have missed something, but I believe she was only ever introduced as "Lindsey." Sorry if she's a recurring guest or something that I'm just not aware of, but please share her credentials for reference. She did admit around the 7:30 mark that she hadn't listened to "a ton of their podcasts," but that "apparently they have expressed vaccine skepticism for a long time," but that lack of first-hand knowledge certainly didn't stop her from commenting on their character, methodology, and intentions.
 
right, both Bret and Eric manufacture trust by telling self serving stories about academic corruption (which Decoding the Gurus and others exposed as nonsense) to poison their audience against looking critically into what they're saying (this is not a novel tactic of gurus, it's all over the place among fad doctors, alternative medicine hawkers etc). no one will stop you buying into their narrative but others are free to think you're silly implying you trust them because they come off as genuine


the person in the episode debunking them is not him, but you can deflect if you wish
It’s interesting that you see any critique of the people making the arguments you like is seen as deflection…
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
It’s interesting that you see any critique of the people making the arguments you like is seen as deflection…
It's a deflection because it doesn't address the point at hand, and is a self-admitted attack on character instead, which, on the list of relevant points to make, ranks low on the list.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
Listened to the first 15 minutes of that and their smugness is honestly a bit insufferable. The message seems to be, "we all need to trust the scientific consensus at all times and never doubt or challenge it unless you have a degree that is specifically in whatever narrow field you're discussing." Basically they think the only people who should have the ability to dissent in regards to public health (or anything scientific) are the anointed experts.

The lady seems to accuse Bret of trying to overturn paradigms just through his podcast discussions, but that is not what he's doing at all. Basically, they are assuming a whole lot of intent on Bret's behalf. Would be nice if they tried to set up an actual discussion with them if they are so confident in their deboonking.
that's a dumb caricature. the actual argument is that the consensus position of experts is much more likely to be true than a fringe position, especially when it's put forward by a non expert*. assessing a fringe position would require looking into details of the consensus position rather than just taking the word of the fringe person, who more often than not is in the position of making fringe arguments because they are making mistakes, and then building aggrieved narratives to explain why no one takes them seriously

* there's very little overlap between the theoretical evolutionary biology Bret has a PHD in and immunology/virology/epidemiology. epidemiology, which is most relevant to efficacy of ivermectin requires training in statistical methods Bret clearly did not get

edit: also, if you're interested in how to evaluate science from a lay (non expert) perspective

 
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D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
that's a dumb caricature. the actual argument is that the consensus position of experts is much more likely to be true than a fringe position, especially when it's put forward by a non expert*. assessing a fringe position would require looking into details of the consensus position rather than just taking the word of the fringe person, who more often than not is in the position of making fringe arguments because they are making mistakes, and then building aggrieved narratives to explain why no one takes them seriously

* there's very little overlap between the theoretical evolutionary biology Bret has a PHD in and immunology/virology/epidemiology. epidemiology, which is most relevant to efficacy of ivermectin requires training in statistical methods Bret clearly did not get

Sure, it seems likely that the consensus of experts is likely to be correct a lot of the time (or else one would hope they would stop being considered experts), but that does not mean it's always correct or that you should not question it ever unless you also become a high level expert in whatever the related field is.

You seem to be assuming that people are just taking whatever Bret says and treating is as the hidden truth or something, but I would wonder what your evidence is for that. Sharing discussions that make interesting points even if they don't get everything right is not the same as claiming that the people in the discussion have a sole license over the truth.

Why do you think the information that Bret has shared about Ivermectin requires "training in statistical methods" to understand correctly? Please reply in specifics.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
It's a deflection because it doesn't address the point at hand, and is a self-admitted attack on character instead, which, on the list of relevant points to make, ranks low on the list.
and just to be clear, ad hominem is fine if there is also substance. the informal fallacy is about avoiding substance. saying negative things about people doesn't invalidate content

that said, pointing out informal fallacies is also a tool frequently deployed to avoid substance!
 
It's a deflection because it doesn't address the point at hand, and is a self-admitted attack on character instead, which, on the list of relevant points to make, ranks low on the list.
Please. It’s bullshit. Attacking character wasn’t a problem literally in the prior post. The whole thing is a character discussion. But suddenly character arguments are a deflection. Try to be consist.

The topic at hand ceased to be ivermectin and became about the Weinsteins’ character. Even the people on the podcast are admitting they don’t really have a firm grasp of the positions they are arguing against. Most of it is character attacks.
 
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D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
You can look at the number of women in their first trimester or early second that received the vaccine and look at the incidence of miscarriage within that population, and it doesn't appear to be high. The study hasn't concluded anything, it's just reporting preliminary results that thus far no evidence of harm has been seen. This type of data allows people to make more informed choices.

The study isn't concluding anything in the text itself, but they surely knew it would be used as evidence of safety, and it is. Maybe it should be, but I feel that 10 weeks is far too short.

You're right that if we take just the women who received the shot in their first trimester (<14 weeks), we would have a denominator of 1,224, which would give us just 8.5% incidence. Low enough, indeed. Then again, we can't tell from the published data when those who had spontaneous abortions actually got the shot. We know it was under 20 weeks, since that is part of the definition of a spontaneous abortion, but we do not know what the spread was across the <14 weeks group (1,224) and the >14 but <20 weeks group. We do have a >14 and <28 weeks group, which is 1,714, but against we don't have a more granular breakdown. Another reason why I believe the 10 week period is just too short.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Please. It’s bullshit. Attacking character wasn’t a problem literally in the prior post. The whole thing is a character discussion. But suddenly character arguments are a deflection. Try to be consist.
Keeping the topic centered around credentials, expertise, and evidence is being consistent.

What does an unsourced anecdote about Person A being owned by Person B have anything to do with the topic at hand?

The topic at hand ceased to be ivermectin and became about the Weinsteins’ character.
I'm pretty sure it's about IVM. That's what I've been talking about.

Even the people on the podcast are admitting they don’t really have a firm grasp of the positions they are arguing against. Most of it is character attacks.
I'm referring to the discussion in this thread.
 
Keeping the topic centered around credentials, expertise, and evidence is being consistent.

What does an unsourced anecdote about Person A being owned by Person B have anything to do with the topic at hand?


I'm pretty sure it's about IVM. That's what I've been talking about.


I'm referring to the discussion in this thread.
The discussion had turned to whether the Weinsteins were grifters, whether they were making self serving arguments to undermine the scientific community and build trust among their audience. The podcast was posted in this context. Then someone attacked the people on the podcast based similar arguments about credibility and previous discussions.

It ceased being about ivermectin and became about the character of the Weinsteins/podcasters.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
Sure, it seems likely that the consensus of experts is likely to be correct a lot of the time (or else one would hope they would stop being considered experts), but that does not mean it's always correct or that you should not question it ever unless you also become a high level expert in whatever the related field is.

You seem to be assuming that people are just taking whatever Bret says and treating is as the hidden truth or something, but I would wonder what your evidence is for that. Sharing discussions that make interesting points even if they don't get everything right is not the same as claiming that the people in the discussion have a sole license over the truth.

Why do you think the information that Bret has shared about Ivermectin requires "training in statistical methods" to understand correctly? Please reply in specifics.
Because the efficacy of drugs isn't divined. It's determined through studies, some of which are better than others according to statistical criteria, how they were conducted, etc. There are many low quality, low n studies that could be deployed to "prove" efficacy of anything, including homeopathy. But it's worse than placebo like homeopathy for drugs that have side effects. Even worse than Bret bumbling into making unproven claims about ivermectin, he pairs that with vaccine skepticism based on unfounded claims about potential negative effects.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
The discussion had turned to whether the Weinsteins were grifters, whether they were making self serving arguments to undermine the scientific community and build trust among their audience. The podcast was posted in this context. Then someone attacked the people on the podcast based similar arguments about credibility and previous discussions.

It ceased being about ivermectin and became about the character of the Weinsteins/podcasters.
Does this mean that you concede that it is a deflection, but it's okay because both sides are doing it?
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Because the efficacy of drugs isn't divined. It's determined through studies, some of which are better than others according to statistical criteria, how they were conducted, etc. There are many low quality, low n studies that could be deployed to "prove" efficacy of anything, including homeopathy. But it's worse than placebo like homeopathy for drugs that have side effects. Even worse than Bret bumbling into making unproven claims about ivermectin, he pairs that with vaccine skepticism based on unfounded claims about potential negative effects.

I'm going to stop arguing with you about if someone's credentials should determine whether or not they are allowed to weigh in on any given topic *at all*. I strongly disagree with your position, so let's just leave it at that.

In regards to Ivermectin, Bret, his guests, and many many others from around the world (including the guy who discovered Ivermectin but does not currently have a financial interest in it), believe there is strong evidence that it likely works as both a prophylactic and therapeutic drug for COVID-19 and should be investigated more. Places (parts of India, Mexico) that *did* deploy it *are* seeing promising results.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
The discussion had turned to whether the Weinsteins were grifters, whether they were making self serving arguments to undermine the scientific community and build trust among their audience. The podcast was posted in this context. Then someone attacked the people on the podcast based similar arguments about credibility and previous discussions.

It ceased being about ivermectin and became about the character of the Weinsteins/podcasters.
no, it started with someone linking twitter posts telling a narrative about how their very good and scientific dissent was being suppressed by youtube. i objected and wanted to point out that actually their dissent is neither of those things (for many reasons).
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
I'm going to stop arguing with you about if someone's credentials should determine whether or not they are allowed to weigh in on any given topic *at all*. I strongly disagree with your position, so let's just leave it at that.

In regards to Ivermectin, Bret, his guests, and many many others from around the world (including the guy who discovered Ivermectin but does not currently have a financial interest in it), believe there is strong evidence that it likely works as both a prophylactic and therapeutic drug for COVID-19 and should be investigated more. Places (parts of India, Mexico) that *did* deploy it *are* seeing promising results.
this is the problem. those kinds of claims about mexico, india, etc require competent analysis. if I remember correctly the graph they posted about had an obvious confound in a lockdown. yes, it was that amateur

edit: removed comparison that could be construed as about politics
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Bret, his guests, and many many others from around the world (including the guy who discovered Ivermectin but does not currently have a financial interest in it), believe there is strong evidence that it likely works as both a prophylactic and therapeutic drug for COVID-19 and should be investigated more.
This is one point of contention that I think is leading to some friction among debaters. I think most of us would agree that there is a lot of promising preliminary data surrounding Ivermectin (just like there sorta was surrounding HCQ), however, that doesn't mean the science is settled and Bret claiming that him taking IVM is effectively giving him immunity on par with the two people on the sides of him who have been vaccinated is too confident a claim relative to the available evidence to justify that claim.

Does that make sense?
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
This is one point of contention that I think is leading to some friction among debaters. I think most of us would agree that there is a lot of promising preliminary data surrounding Ivermectin (just like there sorta was surrounding HCQ), however, that doesn't mean the science is settled and Bret claiming that him taking IVM is effectively giving him immunity on par with the two people on the sides of him who have been vaccinated is too confident a claim relative to the available evidence to justify that claim.

Does that make sense?

Sure. He may be confident (although he did say, "I believe"), but I'm not just going to take his word at face value or change my personal behavior based on his words. Just because he decided to start taking Ivermectin as a prophylactic does not mean I'm going to try to track down someone who will prescribe it to me.

I feel like we need to stop treating everyone like idiots who cannot think for themselves just because there may be a lot of idiots who cannot think for themselves out there.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
Sure. He may be confident (although he did say, "I believe"), but I'm not just going to take his word at face value or change my personal behavior based on his words. Just because he decided to start taking Ivermectin as a prophylactic does not mean I'm going to try to track down someone who will prescribe it to me.

I feel like we need to stop treating everyone like idiots who cannot think for themselves just because there may be a lot of idiots who cannot think for themselves out there.
The criticism isn't that you aren't thinking for yourself. It's about what information you choose to trust. Guru types tend to use anti-establishment rhetoric that give the impression you're enhancing your open mindedness and skepticism by listening to and taking them seriously. None of this is new. All the tropes that came up on this thread today can be found in the following rhetoric from a fasting guru:


meanwhile this dude is selling a book making loads of unfounded claims about the effect of intermittent fasting on cancer via very tendentious reading of relevant science

edit: and I should add covid skepticism too. and his audience is people with diabetes, a high risk group
 
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D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
The criticism isn't that you aren't thinking for yourself. It's about what information you choose to trust. Guru types tend to use anti-establishment rhetoric that give the impression you're enhancing your open mindedness and skepticism by listening to and taking them seriously. None of this is new. All the tropes that came up on this thread today can be found in the following rhetoric from a fasting guru:


meanwhile this dude is selling a book making loads of unfounded claims about the effect of intermittent fasting on cancer via very tendentious reading of relevant science

Don't know anything about this dude you're suddenly bringing up, his claims, or how they are relevant to COVID-19 and the discussion at hand other than that you seem adamant about attacking people's characters rather than what they are saying. Like you said earlier, "ad hominem is fine if there is also substance," but I haven't seen you even attempt to tackle any of the particulars. You seem to be spending a great deal of effort to attack individuals in broad terms so you can justify dismissing anything they say or support out of hand.

Also, you keep coming back to this talk about "trust" but I think you've got it quite wrong. Just because someone shares something does not mean they are claiming that everything the person is saying is the actual truth. They might just have a compelling argument that someone wants to discuss or look into further.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores

How about we take this step by step.

1:42 Steve presents a strawman that all the pushback he ever gets is people who say this is wrong, who are "blue-pilled", who can't argue any of the points of cite any counter-evidence. This is not true. There are real counterpoints to what he is saying, yet he declares victory against this strawman.

3:25 Steve talks about how all this started by listing anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence of eyewitness testimony are weak forms of evidence. There is no way to conclude with certainty that the symptoms they describe are real or that they are caused by the vaccine.

13:12 They all agree that it's anecdotal, and Bret proceeds to give his own anecdotal second-person testimony, which is not strong evidence of vaccine harm. That's pretty much pointless. I could just as well bring in a bunch of other people who claim that they and everyone they know had no problems with it at all.

4:25 Steve claims, "If it's really a safe vaccine, then what I just saw is impossible". No. This is an unsubstantiated claim. What he just saw is totally possible if the vaccine is safe. Those symptoms could have been caused by something else. The wife could have done numerous other things that day that could have caused her symptoms.

5:05 Steve references Byram Bridle, and claims, that Bridle did a FOIA request about the vaccine safety studies and concluded that the vaccine isn't staying where it's supposed to be. "It goes to your brain, your heart . . ."

This is the Japanese paper he's referencing: https://www.pmda.go.jp/drugs/2021/P20210212001/672212000_30300AMX00231_I100_1.pdf
The table showing the data is on page 16.

First of all, this table is not analyzing the actual vaccine, nor the spike protein. What this experiment measured is the lipid nanoparticle that contained luciferase-encoding RNA for detection purposes . "Test Article: [ 3H]-Labelled LNP-mRNA formulation containing ALC-0315 and ALC-0159"

Second of all, if we assume that the results for luciferase-encoding RNA lipid nanoparticles will act exactly the same as lipid nanoparticles containing the actual vaccine mRNA, then we must consider this -

This study was done on rats and not humans.

The dosage given to the rat was 50 micrograms. This is 300 to 1000 times the dosage that the human vaccine has.

It goes to the brain and heart? Let's look at the table. After 48 hours the amount of lipid nanoparticles in the brain is 0.009% of the initial dose. In the heart, it's 0.030%. That's not a lot. Most of it is still in the injection site (24.6%) or in the liver (16.2%) where it's supposed to go because your liver is what breaks down and neutralizes foreign substances in your body. (like alcohol).

Furthermore, don't just look at the table. Look at the analysis given regarding these results (page 45) European version linked so that you have English:



In study PF-07302048_06Jul20_072424, the applicant has used a qualified LC-MS/MS method to support quantitation of the two novel LNP excipients. The bioanalysis methods appear to be adequately characterized and validated for use in the GLP studies.

Following plasma clearance, the liver appears to be to major organ to which ALC-0315 and ALC-0159 distribute. The applicant has estimated the percent of dose distributed to the liver to be ~60% for ALC0315 and ~20% for ALC-0159. The observed liver distribution is consistent with the observations from the biodistribution study and the repeat-dose toxicology, both using IM administration.

The applicant was asked to discuss the long half-life of ALC-0315 and its effect, discussion on the comparison with patisiran, as well as the impact on the boosts and post treatment contraception duration. The applicant considered that there were no non-clinical safety issues based on the repeat dose toxicity studies at doses (on a mg/kg basis) much greater than administered to humans; this was acceptable to the CHMP.

Both patisaran lipids showed an essentially similar PK profile in clinic with a strongly biphasic profile and long terminal half-lives. According to the applicant, it is difficult to further contextualize the pharmacokinetic data and therefore to understand the safety of these molecules, beyond consideration of dose. There is a large dose differential between the human BNT162b2 dose and the dose used in the toxicity studies (300-1000x) which provides an acceptable safety margin. Moreover, according to the Applicant given the large difference in dose between the toxicity studies and the clinically efficacious dose (300-1000x), it is unlikely that the administration of a booster dose will lead to significant accumulation. Finally, the applicant is of the opinion that these results support no requirements for contraception. The CHMP found this position agreeable.

Radioactivity was detected in most tissues from the first time point (0.25 h) and results support that injections site and the liver are the major sites of distribution. The greatest mean concentration was found remaining in the injection site at each time point in both sexes. Low levels of radioactivity were detected in most tissues, with the greatest levels in plasma observed 1-4 hours post-dose. Over 48 hours, distribution was mainly observed to liver, adrenal glands, spleen and ovaries, with maximum concentrations observed at 8-48 hours post-dose. Total recovery (% of injected dose) of radiolabeled LNP+modRNA outside the injection site was greatest in the liver (up to 21.5%) and was much less in spleen (≤1.1%), adrenal glands (≤0.1%) and ovaries (≤0.1%). The mean concentrations and tissue distribution pattern were broadly similar between the sexes. No evidence of vaccine-related macroscopic or microscopic findings were found in the ovaries in the repeat-dose toxicity studies (Study 38166 and Study 20GR142) and no effects on fertility were identified in the DART study.

I can only wonder why they choose to link the Japanese paper when the European study it is referencing is right there. Is it because there's none of the English within the Japanese paper that describes and interprets these results as safe? Or is it just incompetency? I have no idea.

Moving on...

5:46 Bret claims the spike protein is cytotoxic. The protein is dangerous, sure, when attached to the actual COVID19 virus. However, the spike protein on its own is not. The spike protein that is generated from the mRNA vaccine isn't even the same kind of protein and it is designed to be more benign. Bret just claims "we know it's toxic" but doesn't prove it. When you get sick with COVID 19, the virus is entering your lungs and airways and causing damage. The vaccine puts the spike protein generating mRNA into your muscle tissue, and as I already showed, it more or less stays put until it gets broken down naturally.


So I’ve been getting questions about what this means for vaccination: if we’re causing people to express Spike protein via mRNA or adenovirus vectors, are we damaging them just as if they’d been infected with coronavirus? Fortunately, the answer definitely seems to be “no” – in fact, the pseudovirus paper notes near the end that the antibody response generated by vaccination against the Spike protein will be beneficial in two ways, against infection and against the Spike-mediated endothelial damage as well. There are several reasons why the situation is different.

Consider what happens when you’re infected by the actual coronavirus. We know now that the huge majority of such infections are spread by inhalation of virus-laden droplets from other infected people, so the route of administration is via the nose and/or lungs, and the cells lining your airway are thus the first ones to get infected. The viral infection process leads at the end to lysis of the the host cell and subsequent dumping of a load of new viral particles – and these get dumped into the cellular neighborhood and into the bloodstream. They then have a clear shot at the endothelial cells lining the airway vasculature, which are the very focus of these two new papers.

Compare this, though, to what happens in vaccination. The injection is intramuscular, not into the bloodstream. That’s why a muscle like the deltoid is preferred, because it’s a good target of thicker muscle tissue without any easily hit veins or arteries at the site of injection.

Now we get to a key difference: when a cell gets the effect of an mRNA nanoparticle or an adenovirus vector, it of course starts to express the Spike protein. But instead of that being assembled into more infectious viral particles, as would happen in a real coronavirus infection, this protein gets moved up to the surface of the cell, where it stays. That’s where it’s presented to the immune system, as an abnormal intruding protein on a cell surface. The Spike protein is not released to wander freely through the bloodstream by itself, because it has a transmembrane anchor region that (as the name implies) leaves it stuck. That’s how it sits in the virus itself, and it does the same in human cells. See the discussion in this paper on the development of the Moderna vaccine, and the same applies to all the mRNA and vector vaccines that produce the Spike. You certainly don’t have the real-infection situation of Spike-covered viruses washing along everywhere through the circulation. The Spike protein produced by vaccination is not released in a way that it gets to encounter the ACE2 proteins on the surface of other human cells at all: it’s sitting on the surface of muscle and lymphatic cells up in your shoulder, not wandering through your lungs causing trouble.

Some of the vaccine dose is going to make it into the bloodstream, of course. But keep in mind, when the mRNA or adenovirus particles do hit cells outside of the liver or the site of injection, they’re still causing them to express Spike protein anchored on their surfaces, not dumping it into the circulation.

So the reports of Spike protein trouble are interesting and important for coronavirus infection, but they do not mean that the vaccines themselves are going to cause similar problems. In fact, as mentioned above, the fact that these vaccines are aimed at the Spike means that they’re protective in more ways than we even realized.

Update: there’s another level of difference that I didn’t mention. In the Moderna, Pfizer/BioNTech, J&J, and Novavax vaccines, the Spike protein has some proline mutations introduced to try to hold it in its “prefusion” conformation, rather than the shape it adopts when it binds to ACE2. So that should cut down even more on the ability of the Spike protein produced by these vaccines to bind and produce the effects noted in the recent papers. That comes in particularly handy for the Novavax one, since it’s an injection of Spike protein itself, rather than a vaccine that has it produced inside the cells. Notably, the AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine is producing wild-type Spike (although that’s still going to be membrane-anchored as discussed above!)

6:15 Steve claims that one of the "scary" things is that the biodistribution peaks in the ovaries. I assume he's referencing that Japanese source again, but looking at that table shows this is not true.

Look at page 17 of the Japanese link. Ovaries. After 48 hours, the concentration is 0.095 % of the dose. How is that "peaking" in the ovaries????

6:42 "We now know the spike protein is very dangerous". Unsubstantiated claim. Yes it's dangerous when attached to COVID19, but its danger as a component to vaccine therapy is unsubstantiated.

8:19 They talk about spike proteins being cleaved off and roaming free, but they haven't shown how this is a problem.

10:30 Steve talks again about the cleaved off spike proteins going all around your body, but I've already shown how his analysis of the study that he is basing his opinion on is flawed. He then goes on to talk about anecdotal side effects, and uses loaded language like "victims" of the vaccine in order to elicit an emotional response even though there is no concrete proof that demonstrates a link between those things. It's just "The did one thing and some time later something else happened". That's not enough evidence to link those two events in a causal relationship.

I assume he's using this study which studied a whopping 13 people to demonstrate cleaved spike proteins in the blood. The problem is, there is no demonstration of the cytotoxicity of the modified spike protein, plus the concentrations that they are present are so incredibly small that you need a specialized super machine to even detect it.


According to this study, they detected concentrations of spike protein at 68 picrograms per mL. 68 picograms is really tiny.
S1 antigen was detected as early as day one post vaccination and peak levels were detected on average five days after the first injection (Figure 1A). The mean S1 peak levels was 68 pg/mL ±21 pg/mL. S1 in all participants declined and became undetectable by day 14.

Furthermore, in the conflicts of interests section, you can see how they have interests tied to the maker of the machine whose specialty is being able to detect very very very small amounts of concentrations of things.

12:25 Steve again uses gruesome descriptive language to elicit an emotional response, even though there is no justification for linking a miscarriage with the vaccine. This hypothetical doctor would put down the most plausible explanation.

Going to Steve's website, the first piece of "evidence" is a chart listing VAERS deaths.


Right off the bat, he commits a correlation not causation error.

This explains it:


Question:​

Is it true that VAERS says 3,000 people have died from the COVID-19 vaccines?

Answered from infectious diseases expert James Lawler, MD, MPH:​

No. Here's some context to explain the confusion.

After clinical trials, the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is how the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) monitors vaccine safety. VAERS is intentionally set up to capture adverse events that are not thought to be caused by vaccines. It is the best tool we have to find what may be previously unrecognized and extraordinarily rare adverse events that may eventually be linked.

VAERS cannot and does not determine whether a vaccine caused something. The CDC states this clearly in their disclaimer: "A report to VAERS does not mean that the vaccine caused the adverse event, only that the adverse event occurred some time after vaccination." The disclaimer continues, "The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental or unverifiable."

Reporting even unrelated deaths

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) requires health care providers to report any serious adverse event (including death) that happens after a COVID-19 vaccination – whether or not the provider thinks there is any link. The CDC says, "Health care providers are required to report to VAERS the following adverse events after COVID-19 vaccination…regardless if the reporter thinks the vaccine caused the AE." AE stands for adverse event and includes death.

That means that if a vaccinated person drowns, gets in a car crash or is struck by lightning, their death must be reported to VAERS as an adverse event. Since we've vaccinated over 140 million people in the United States, many deaths will occur coincidentally after vaccination.

As of May 10, there have been 4,434 reports of death following a COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS. Doctors at the CDC review each reported death, looking at death certificates, autopsy and medical records. They have no reason to believe that COVID-19 vaccines cause death.
 
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QSD

Member
that's a dumb caricature. the actual argument is that the consensus position of experts is much more likely to be true than a fringe position, especially when it's put forward by a non expert*. assessing a fringe position would require looking into details of the consensus position rather than just taking the word of the fringe person, who more often than not is in the position of making fringe arguments because they are making mistakes, and then building aggrieved narratives to explain why no one takes them seriously

Under normal circumstances this can be assumed, however IMHO the pandemic is causing huge social and political pressures to be placed on people who are normally not used to being in the centre of a political firestorm. Thus the pandemic has lined up incentives in such a way as to cause me to at least be extra suspicious of consensus, because it is most likely not purely scientific in nature.

For example in the lab leak issue there is a huge incentive for China to try and suppress this information if it were true, because they do not want to be held responsible by other nations for "starting" the pandemic by negligence. The situation is similar to Russia's attitude towards the accidental downing of the MH-17 jet above Ukraine, they will never admit responsibility (and lose face) even if it is plainly apparent, so they find 'experts' who will 'debunk' the theory ad nauseam. In both cases, the 'consensus' is beholden to politics (like access to relevant documentation/data) that will be strategically withheld, so to me the 'consensus' seems worthless.

Does this mean that you concede that it is a deflection, but it's okay because both sides are doing it?
It certainly was a deflection, one that I made especially to demonstrate that you can basically attack anyone's character, it adds very little to the discussion.

The criticism isn't that you aren't thinking for yourself. It's about what information you choose to trust. Guru types tend to use anti-establishment rhetoric that give the impression you're enhancing your open mindedness and skepticism by listening to and taking them seriously. None of this is new. All the tropes that came up on this thread today can be found in the following rhetoric from a fasting guru:
It isn't new, but what's new is shovelling all these new 'internet intellectuals' into the rubric "guru's" to easily dismiss them. People have different temperaments, and some will be more naturally prone to anti-establishment viewpoints. That's just normal human psychological variance, I don't read ill intent into that. You seem to read it as a major character flaw, but there are just as many instances in which following the crowd can be disastrous. I don't think I need to name examples.

Same goes for the tendency of the Weinsteins to self-aggrandize; that's just basic human psychology 101, like 75% of people believe that they're better than average drivers. It's certainly not worth dismissing people completely over. You can levy criticism at any internet talking head/guru; Jordan Peterson is theatrical, Douglas Murray is vapid, Sam Harris is a detached robot with TDS, the list goes on. Those "decoding the guru's" hosts however would do well to take a look in the mirror from time to time.

As of May 10, there have been 4,434 reports of death following a COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS. Doctors at the CDC review each reported death, looking at death certificates, autopsy and medical records. They have no reason to believe that COVID-19 vaccines cause death.

This is a huge post so kudos, I can't do it justice completely as I need to get some sleep so my galaxy brain can recuperate. That Steve guy on Brett's podcast is definitely a blowhard and comes across as unhinged to me, I was more interested in what the other guy had to say but Steve kept talking over him because he's angry.

However I'd like to point out that a key issue in this VAERS point is also trust. I just don't have enough faith in the system to believe that if there were significant numbers of deaths that could conceivably be attributed to the vaccine, that we would hear about it. The incentives are just lined up in such a bad way that objectivity is out the window immediately. Pharma companies don't want the responsibility for these deaths, the government doesn't want the vaccination program to be delayed etc etc. There is just no way this info would be allowed coalesce in any meaningful way without huge blowback and attempts to silence.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
Don't know anything about this dude you're suddenly bringing up, his claims, or how they are relevant to COVID-19 and the discussion at hand other than that you seem adamant about attacking people's characters rather than what they are saying. Like you said earlier, "ad hominem is fine if there is also substance," but I haven't seen you even attempt to tackle any of the particulars. You seem to be spending a great deal of effort to attack individuals in broad terms so you can justify dismissing anything they say or support out of hand.

Also, you keep coming back to this talk about "trust" but I think you've got it quite wrong. Just because someone shares something does not mean they are claiming that everything the person is saying is the actual truth. They might just have a compelling argument that someone wants to discuss or look into further.
I don't know about you but I'm not an expert on COVID-19, Ivermectin, or vaccines. In my first post on this I linked to someone with some relevant expertise about ivermectin that undermines the narrative he's telling but no one engaged with that. Then in a later post I did summarize some of that according to my own understanding.

re "trust" you're interpreting that as credulously believing what they say without question which is silly. My meaning was "trust" as a serious source of information on whatever topic. "Trust" is the right word because it's impossible to evaluate all claims, which is why I was trying to point out gurus sowing distrust in the people most likely able to check their claims. Science is built on a history of engaging with relevant literature, peer review, post publication critical commentary, etc. What is called "consensus" is a range of views that come out of that process. If you listen to Eric you'll hear a lot about the DISC groupthink which conveniently caricatures that as close minded and gives him and his listeners excuses to dismiss critics of his and Bret's scientific speculation
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
Under normal circumstances this can be assumed, however IMHO the pandemic is causing huge social and political pressures to be placed on people who are normally not used to being in the centre of a political firestorm. Thus the pandemic has lined up incentives in such a way as to cause me to at least be extra suspicious of consensus, because it is most likely not purely scientific in nature.

For example in the lab leak issue there is a huge incentive for China to try and suppress this information if it were true, because they do not want to be held responsible by other nations for "starting" the pandemic by negligence. The situation is similar to Russia's attitude towards the accidental downing of the MH-17 jet above Ukraine, they will never admit responsibility (and lose face) even if it is plainly apparent, so they find 'experts' who will 'debunk' the theory ad nauseam. In both cases, the 'consensus' is beholden to politics (like access to relevant documentation/data) that will be strategically withheld, so to me the 'consensus' seems worthless.
This is a claim more about media as an intermediary than it is about what relevant experts think because as far as I know they were mostly open to the possibility but thought (and still think) it's unlikely with the evidence available. There may have been some distortion of what experts think from articles pushing back against conspiracy theories attached to lab leak but none of that vindicates sweeping statements implying you can't trust anything (the sign that this is also a political narrative is the unequal concern with rigor)
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
It certainly was a deflection, one that I made especially to demonstrate that you can basically attack anyone's character, it adds very little to the discussion.
Thank you. That's all I was pointing out, DeepBreath87 DeepBreath87

This is a huge post so kudos
Thank you.

However I'd like to point out that a key issue in this VAERS point is also trust. I just don't have enough faith in the system to believe that if there were significant numbers of deaths that could conceivably be attributed to the vaccine, that we would hear about it. The incentives are just lined up in such a bad way that objectivity is out the window immediately. Pharma companies don't want the responsibility for these deaths, the government doesn't want the vaccination program to be delayed etc etc. There is just no way this info would be allowed coalesce in any meaningful way without huge blowback and attempts to silence.
Our corpo-government love fest is shit at times, but it's not beyond the pale. We're not China over here. Our system of checks and balances still works well enough, and it would be very hard to cover something like that up. In places like India, you can definitely see they're underreporting deaths due to the discrepancies in cremation rates and death reports, for example. There isn't anything like that here.

What are the incentives, exactly? I can see incentives to see why they don't want to make the vaccine recipe public domain. I can see incentives to see why they don't want medicare for all. However, there are no incentives to cover up safety issues because they'd get sued to hell and back. Same with the government. There's no long term benefit or profit for delivering an unsafe product.

Consider the VAERS numbers again.


Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 302 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through June 7, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 5,208 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines.

If you think it's stupid that someone who has COVID and dies in a car accident is counted as a "COVID death", then you should also think that someone who got a vaccine and then dies in a car accident shouldn't be counted as a "vaccine death".

302 million doses were given out, and there were 5,208 reports of death sometime after. Assuming each does was one person, that's a death rate of 0.0017% over half a year. If this death rate is higher than the national death rate would you be worried? If this death rate is lower than the national death rate, would you be relieved?

Let's find out.

In 2017, the population was 325.1 million people. In 2017 2,813,503 people died in the USA. That is a death rate of 0.87% over a year.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
surreal to watch the crowd back in stadiums for euro2020 and yet the indian strain is able to kill even those on double doses vaccine

Why does the headline emphasize the people who had two shots and died? Shouldn't the more relevant headline be, "Over 66% of people dead from the Indian variant were unvaccinated or only partially vaccinated (therefore hurry up and get vaccinated)?"
 

longdi

Banned
Why does the headline emphasize the people who had two shots and died? Shouldn't the more relevant headline be, "Over 66% of people dead from the Indian variant were unvaccinated or only partially vaccinated (therefore hurry up and get vaccinated)?"

i guess that's still a worrying high number and an alarming headlines is better
 
Does this mean that you concede that it is a deflection, but it's okay because both sides are doing it?
This has gone so far down the rabbit hole now I’m not sure it matters. At some point it becomes tedious.
It’s interesting that you see any critique of the people making the arguments you like is seen as deflection…
I didn’t argue that is was or wasn’t a deflection. I only pointed out that when you come after the character of one part of an argument, it’s ridiculous to call someone else doing the same thing a deflection. If the discussion ceases to be about ivermectin and moves to whether the Weinsteins have credibility, then someone else attacking the credibility of that podcast is not a deflection any more than posting the podcast was originally. Address their arguments directly. Calling them essentially grifters was either out of bounds originally or, if that’s inbounds, so is attacking that podcast in a similar way. Consistency.
 
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T8SC

Gold Member
Anyone else looking forward to the 4th wave?

Because this shit is going to continue on for a long time yet. Why can't they accept that this is something we'll have to live with, like the common cold, flu or many other diseases? Nah lets just shut things down periodically and keep handing out money like its a never ending supply.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
Alarming headlines don't do any good. Sensationalism for profit at the expense of public health is a bad thing.

Associating death with "two jabs" in the headline is irresponsible when there are more relevant headline options to chose from.

Also, they haven’t actually dug down into what other pre existing conditions those 12 may have had. Any read on these figures requires that context. If they were all elderly or otherwise sick, it’s not an issue. If they were all healthy apart from Covid, that’s a problem.

Of course, the collection of dickheads at The Daily Mail wouldn’t want to wait for that context before printing a nice alarming headline 🙄
 

QSD

Member
This is a claim more about media as an intermediary than it is about what relevant experts think because as far as I know they were mostly open to the possibility but thought (and still think) it's unlikely with the evidence available. There may have been some distortion of what experts think from articles pushing back against conspiracy theories attached to lab leak but none of that vindicates sweeping statements implying you can't trust anything (the sign that this is also a political narrative is the unequal concern with rigor)
The problem for me is the incentives. China will not want the outcome "lab leak" under any circumstances. China is also ground zero and has all the data related to the beginning of the outbreak, which they can selectively share, distort or withhold at their discretion. Even the most prominent virology experts in the world can't do anything when the data is doctored, redacted or withheld. The chance that we will know the truth of the matter in these circumstances is just vanishingly small.


Our corpo-government love fest is shit at times, but it's not beyond the pale. We're not China over here. Our system of checks and balances still works well enough, and it would be very hard to cover something like that up. In places like India, you can definitely see they're underreporting deaths due to the discrepancies in cremation rates and death reports, for example. There isn't anything like that here.

What are the incentives, exactly? I can see incentives to see why they don't want to make the vaccine recipe public domain. I can see incentives to see why they don't want medicare for all. However, there are no incentives to cover up safety issues because they'd get sued to hell and back. Same with the government. There's no long term benefit or profit for delivering an unsafe product.

It depends on what you mean by long term. Philips (dutch electronics company) just today ordered a recall of a whole bunch of medical respirator devices because the rubber seals crumble at high temperatures, releasing particles and toxic gases that may cause cancer. These are medical devices that are supposed to be tested rigorously, but errors and unforeseen mishaps will still sneak through. You can recall respirators, but not vaccines.

The Dutch government (not otherwise known for its corruption) is currently involved in a long-term scandal involving the use of a carcinogenous paint that the army used for many years, whilst already knowing that it was unhealthy. The people involved in these decisions have long since gone and taken their six-figure salaries with them. Safety issues are covered up all the time. In my experience there is hardly ever any accountability for the powerful in situations like this.

People can only sue if they have enough money and even then the outcome is not certain. There is absolutely profit to be made in delivering an unsafe product. Most companies don't think long term because the responsible people are not incentivized to. They maximize profits in the short term and will have moved on when the blowback hits, if ever.

If you think it's stupid that someone who has COVID and dies in a car accident is counted as a "COVID death", then you should also think that someone who got a vaccine and then dies in a car accident shouldn't be counted as a "vaccine death".
Well if the person crashes their car after a coughing fit than that's a covid death for sure! Also if someone crashes their card trying to run over Bret Weinstein, I'll count it as a vaccine death to be on the safe side.

To take a more serious critique of this VAERS business: in the podcast it's mentioned that reporting to VAERS is not obligatory. It may well be possible that doctors hesitate to report if they get blowback from colleagues or are pressured by higher ups not to. The collection and subsequent analysis of the reported cases may well be done by one person or a small group. They may also be subjected to pressure to produce desirable conclusions, or otherwise compromised...

Answered from infectious diseases expert James Lawler, MD, MPH:
No. Here's some context to explain the confusion.

After clinical trials, the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is how the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) monitors vaccine safety. VAERS is intentionally set up to capture adverse events that are not thought to be caused by vaccines. It is the best tool we have to find what may be previously unrecognized and extraordinarily rare adverse events that may eventually be linked.
So you have a Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System but according to this guy it's intentionally set up to capture events that are NOT thought to be caused by vaccines? Read that again and tell me that doesn't sound like weaseling right out the gate.
Reporting even unrelated deaths
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) requires health care providers to report any serious adverse event (including death) that happens after a COVID-19 vaccination – whether or not the provider thinks there is any link. The CDC says, "Health care providers are required to report to VAERS the following adverse events after COVID-19 vaccination…regardless if the reporter thinks the vaccine caused the AE." AE stands for adverse event and includes death.
according to the people on the podcast using the system is not obligatory, and many medical professionals are unfamiliar with it.
That means that if a vaccinated person drowns, gets in a car crash or is struck by lightning, their death must be reported to VAERS as an adverse event. Since we've vaccinated over 140 million people in the United States, many deaths will occur coincidentally after vaccination.

As of May 10, there have been 4,434 reports of death following a COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS. Doctors at the CDC review each reported death, looking at death certificates, autopsy and medical records. They have no reason to believe that COVID-19 vaccines cause death.
Giving an example like a lightning strike here as an example is manipulative, it makes it seem absurd to collect these reports. Nobody is going to report a lightning strike as an adverse vaccine reaction.
In the end though, I have to trust that the doctors at the CDC review these in good faith and without an agenda. I don't.
4,434 death reports in a system that is optional... I wonder how many adverse events were recorded in total?

This has gone so far down the rabbit hole now I’m not sure it matters. At some point it becomes tedious.
Dude you've gone down the rabbit hole, through several abandoned mine shafts and have emerged into the hollow earth, and you call that tedious? Where's your sense of adventure? :messenger_winking:
 
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Chaplain

Member

















Dr Quay's remarks came after he asked what it was about the coronavirus that makes him think it may have been the result of experimentation. “There is a signature in the virus that’s not present in any other virus that SARS-COV-2 could have come from in terms of recombination,” he told Sky News Australia. “So it’s something that’s never been seen in this virus class before.” Dr Quay said the other compelling aspect was that it was “pre-adapted to humans”. “SARS one and MERS both practiced going into humans without sustaining human-to-human transfer,” he said. “This is the first virus from nature that has strong human-to-human transfer right from the beginning.”

Edited
 
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D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
5:46 Bret claims the spike protein is cytotoxic. The protein is dangerous, sure, when attached to the actual COVID19 virus. However, the spike protein on its own is not. The spike protein that is generated from the mRNA vaccine isn't even the same kind of protein and it is designed to be more benign. Bret just claims "we know it's toxic" but doesn't prove it. When you get sick with COVID 19, the virus is entering your lungs and airways and causing damage. The vaccine puts the spike protein generating mRNA into your muscle tissue, and as I already showed, it more or less stays put until it gets broken down naturally.


6:42 "We now know the spike protein is very dangerous". Unsubstantiated claim. Yes it's dangerous when attached to COVID19, but its danger as a component to vaccine therapy is unsubstantiated.

Specifically in regards to these two, it does appear that the COVID-19 spike protein by itself can do plenty of damage to the cells even without the presence of a virus.


Now, they do say that the COVID-19 spike protein behaves differently to the spike protein generated as a result of the vaccines, but I'm still trying to find clear information about that.

While this was for the AstraZeneca, which was not mRNA, a group of French doctors and scientists speculated that the blood clots, etc. may be a result of injection error, and having the injected substance enter small blood vessels rather than cleanly into the shoulder muscle. I remember Dr. Campbell talking about this in one of his videos. Obviously not definitive, but definitely something to think about.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
Vaccines incredibly effective against new Indian variant :




Get. Your. Bloody. Vaccine. Please.
 
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Birdo

Banned
Vaccines incredibly effective against new Indian variant :




Get. Your. Bloody. Vaccine.


So..... All over 80's vaccinated, all vunerable groups vaccinated, 71 million overall doses in the UK...... Can someone explain why they just extended the restrictions?

So much contradiction going on. It's almost like....... No, I shouldn't say it.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
So..... All over 80's vaccinated, all vunerable groups vaccinated, 71 million overall doses in the UK...... Can someone explain why they just extended the restrictions?

So much contradiction going on. It's almost like....... No, I shouldn't say it.

They‘ve delayed the loosening of all restrictions (we’re mostly back to normal now though, thanks) until they can give everyone at least one dose.

That‘s the reason. Any other cobblers you might want to believe us your choice.
 

Birdo

Banned
They‘ve delayed the loosening of all restrictions (we’re mostly back to normal now though, thanks) until they can give everyone at least one dose.

That‘s the reason. Any other cobblers you might want to believe us your choice.

We will never reach "everyone having one dose", because of people who can't take it and people who don't consent to the trial.

I'm not falling for this bullshit. If the vaccine was 96% effective, there would be no restrictions at all. Period.
 

Chaplain

Member


On Saturday, June 12th, 2021, Christian Erikson, a 29-year-old from Denmark, suddenly collapsed during a soccer match, as a result of his heart going into sudden cardiac arrest. His heart wasn’t able to pump blood to his brain, he lost consciousness, and fell to the ground. Within minutes the medical staff surrounds him. They check a pulse, there’s no pulse, so they start CPR, and he gets one shock to his chest to defibrillate his heart. Fortunately, they were able to successfully resuscitate him, and he is doing well now. By the time you are watching this, he has probably already had an extensive cardiac workup, including bloodwork measuring troponin levels, EKGs, an ultrasound of the heart, meaning an echocardiogram, and a cardiac MRI. Christian Erikson is far from the only young athlete to have a sudden cardiac arrest while playing a sport. Reggie Lewis with the Boston Celtics. Hank Gathers with Loyola. Between 2004-2007, soccer players Marc Vivien Foe, Miklos Feher, and Antonio Puerta died of sudden cardiac arrest, which led to FIFA enforcing players to be screened before competitions at ALL levels. Thankfully Francis Muamba survived in 2012. Sudden cardiac death is defined as unexpected death due to a previously unknown heart condition, and it occurs within 1 hour of symptom onset. The incidence of SCD among young athletes is pretty low, around 1:75,000 young athletes per year. Normally, a healthy heart is in a sinus rhythm. Chances are, if you’re watching this, you are in sinus rhythm, which means if you check your pulse, there is a consistent rhythm to it. How does this happen? The beginning of the electrical signal in the heart originates in the sinus node, which is located in the right atrium. Think of the sinus node as the drummer of a band. Sure he might be a little crazy. But it’s the drummer’s job to keep the timing smooth and steady, to keep a consistent pace of the song. For example lets say the song is at a tempo of 100 beats per minute. The rest of the band is in sync with the drummer at that tempo of 100 beats per minute. The last you thing you want is the guitarist to be soloing at a tempo of 130 beats per minute, and the frontman singing at 170, and so on. Because that leads to nothing but noise, and not music. And that’s essentially what happens with the heart, right before someone has a sudden cardiac arrest. This is called Ventricular Fibrillation, aka VFib, which in essence, the ventricles of the heart are not pumping blood to the body because the electrical circuit is going hey-wire, completely out of sync. They are doing nothing more than quivering. In this moment, if the heart is not defibrillated, meaning shocked with a jolt of electricity, the heart will soon be in even more trouble, something called asystole. In other words, zero electrical activity in the heart. The chances of reviving someone at this point becomes even slimmer. When someone has a sudden cardiac arrest, another rhythm called ventricular tachycardia sometimes precedes VFib. This is when the origin of the electrical activity is in the ventricles, instead of the sinus node in the atria. Persistent VTach often deteriorates into VFib, and that is why VTach needs emergent medical attention. And this is why AEDs are so important. An AED is an automated external defibrillator. You turn it on, you put the pads on the chest, it senses if it should shock patient, and if appropriate, it delivers a shock, in an attempt to reset the heart. AEDs and sideline medical teams with specialized training in CPR are required at every professional soccer stadium in the world. Had Christian Erikson not had CPR with an AED put on his chest within minutes, his chances of survival would have been extremely small. After one defibrillation, his heart went back into sinus rhythm. Thankfully not only did he survive, but he didn’t require a breathing tube to be put in, which is usually the case when someone has a cardiac arrest. Because when the heart stops, the cessation of breathing soon follows. So why would an athlete, who by all means is in superb physical conditioning, and of extraordinary health, all of a sudden have their heart stop? Although it rarely happens, there are lots of different causes of sudden cardiac arrest in a young athlete. Often, SCA is the sentinel event of an underlying, previously undiagnosed heart condition when a person is put through rigorous physical activity. As someone who works in the intensive care unit, I’ve had several young patients who experienced sudden cardiac arrest while exercising.
 
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