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[rickybooby87]

There is absolutely no way that a 1080p frame buffer would saturate 10gb of memory, surely.

you wouldn’t think so, but what else could
There be? Higher clocked CPU, more CUs, Full RDNA2 feature set and faster VRAM throughput, all should be working in favor, but it’s not. And there are other similar instances with other games.

 

[Exanthus]

Cool the threads turning into a conspiracy now

 

[DarkMage619]

Not cheaper, but the PS5 DE is $100 more. That's a hugely better value in performance per dollar.

Nope not at all. The PlayStation platform is objectively more expensive to purchase and play games on overall. First party titles cost more, upgrading games in many cases costs you extra, and cloud saves are behind a paywall. Sony also barely makes the digital version of the PS5 available where as Microsoft has kept plenty of XSS in the retail pipeline. Sony also does not allow you to purchase digital games outside of their storefront limiting ways to save money if you don't like Sony's price. I was at Target recently and there were several digital Xbox games for sale. Zero digital titles on PlayStation 5. For the same price you get far more games and options on XSS that you can't get on PlayStation at all. The PS5 certainly has a more powerful GPU but it isn't a better value.

On topic this demo is proof that the XSS is quite capable of playing current generation games at performance levels comparable to what more expensive devices have. It is quite impressive what $300 can get you. I'm curious what games that take full advantage of the full feature set will look like.

 

[rofif]

Tried it on Series X. Say goodbye to 60FPS games. We will need a mid-gen refresh.

I was really hoping we don't get pro consoles this gen. It was frustrating and divided the market needlessly.
PRO consoles don't automatically mean 60fps anyway.

 

[Rivet]

They obviously didn't read the article on DF

"
Since the first debut of the Lumen in the Land of Nanite demo, there has been the perception that the mass bandwidth of the SSD in PlayStation 5 is what makes the Nanite system possible. However, the whole point of the virtualised texturing system used by Nanite is that it's actually very lightweight in bandwidth - the only detail streamed in is that which is required onscreen at any given point. "This distinguishes it from traditional engines... [with Nanite] it's very gradual," says Michal Valient. "As you move around, it hovers at like 10MB per second, because we stream bits of textures, bits of Nanite data... we stream textures or small tiles as you need them. As you render them, Nanite picks the actual little clusters of triangles you need to render that particular view. And we stream just that, so we don't over-stream too much"

Sort of puts that theory to bed once and for all.

That's a strange way to see things. In THIS demo SSD wasn't a factor, that much is true. But nothing stops you (in UE5 or not) from using higher quality assets, or more assets.

With the PS5 SSD and I/O system, you'll be able to stream a lot more of those assets compared to Series X. You should see the difference if devs make the effort to use this better SSD. You'll definitely see it in PS5 exclusives, even without UE5. I don't know if devs will bother in multiplatform games though.

 

[onQ123]

I know, but this is the first the we get to see the same UE5 tech/demo for both.. and currently! Sony is infront of MS, even if it is by a very small margin.
The first demo was only for PS5 only.
Reasons could be because of the Sony partnership (money) , focus on PS5, works better on PS5 etc.
Nobody knows..
As soon we get the first multiplat UE5 games we will see how the devs will use/adapt to UE5.

IMO none of the devs use either the PS5 or the XSX fully atm, especially if most of the games we get currently are old and current gen games.

I think it might have been rough on Series consoles at the time so they showed it on PS5 judging by the fact MS sent their own devs in to help get the new demo up to speed.

 

[Genx3]

you wouldn’t think so, but what else could
There be? Higher clocked CPU, more CUs, Full RDNA2 feature set and faster VRAM throughput, all should be working in favor, but it’s not. And there are other similar instances with other games.

Well there is the fact that Series is technically 2 set of specs they have to optimize for.
Do devs spend the same amount of time on optimizing for all 3 sets of HW? Doubt it.

 

[Genx3]

I was really hoping we don't get pro consoles this gen. It was frustrating and divided the market needlessly.
PRO consoles don't automatically mean 60fps anyway.

Don't they still need to implement Mesh shader engines?

That should double performance on compatible consoles.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Some posters brought up the fact that the extra CUs in the XSX shader arrays might not be getting properly utilized, but yes, I suspect this is a memory bandwidth issue as well.

For last gen games designed around 5GB of VRAM, yes, but this is next gen stuff that likely has a way memory budget. We shockingly dont even know how much RAM is reserved for the PS5 OS, but even if its a massive 4GB compared to the 2.5 GB reserved for the XSX, the PS5 still has access to 2GB of faster ram.

Again, how else would you explain this? we are a year in. This is a next gen engine. Coalition was involved optimizing this. What other explanation could there be for the tflops difference to not materialize? Especially considering we have seen a massive 30% difference in some games earlier this summer.

I can only imagine, even though we are a year in...its a completely shit year of people working from home. We are a year in and there's no real next gen games in my opinion and they aren't going to be around for some time. Let's be honest we haven't had any games that look really next gen. That doesn't mean there isn't good games, but nothing mindblowing.

I need to watch the video properly to see what DF say, I haven't seen it yet. I guess the ps5 is performing better overall?

 

[SlimySnake]

I was really hoping we don't get pro consoles this gen. It was frustrating and divided the market needlessly.
PRO consoles don't automatically mean 60fps anyway.

they didnt last gen because MS and Sony didnt bother upgrading the jaguar CPUs. next gen CPUs should be able to hit 60 fps if there is enough GPU power to render 2x more pixels.

I can only imagine, even though we are a year in...its a completely shit year of people working from home. We are a year in and there's no real next gen games in my opinion and they aren't going to be around for some time. Let's be honest we haven't had any games that look really next gen. That doesn't mean there isn't good games, but nothing mindblowing.

I need to watch the video properly to see what DF say, I haven't seen it yet. I guess the ps5 is performing better overall?

No they are both on par. PS5 has a 1 fps advantage in literally one shot. But being on par when there is an 18% tflops difference is weird and thats why people are bringing up ram configurations because it simply shouldnt happen. ive said this before but a 2080 should never outperform a 2080 super.

 

[Loxus]

Vrs has not been free of artefacts, it's like lowering the resolution in certain parts of the screen... The problem is that it always end up affecting the visible portion of the image. It has been annoying so far and I'm not sure what is best:
Render at a 20% lower resolution to reconstruct with a top of the line scaling technique .. or hope that VRS can find that 20% by smudging parts of the image?

I don't think that you should make fun of others for pitching something you consider secret sauce... Then take out the VRS card as if it would grant some free performance and bring about a new golden age of Xbox gaming.... It's about as good as cloud computing dx12/dx12u, Gamepass, etc. We heard you, Christ will be back alive and kicking.

Correct.
VRS is only useful for VR in this day and age, especially with eye tracking.

Techniques like Dynamic Resolution and Upscaling is the preferred method as seen by Epic.

 

[RoboFu]

cerny delivered with the ps5

I don’t think it was all cerny. There was the one engineer who pushed for liquid metal thermal paste for the cpu to get those high clocks.

 

[mansoor1980]

I don’t think it was all cerny. There was the one engineer who pushed for liquid metal thermal paste for the cpu to get those high clocks.

you mean the GPU right

 

[DenchDeckard]

you wouldn’t think so, but what else could
There be? Higher clocked CPU, more CUs, Full RDNA2 feature set and faster VRAM throughput, all should be working in favor, but it’s not. And there are other similar instances with other games.

Ive resided myself to not understanding any of this shit with these consoles this time, in my mind they are just more or less neck and neck as the consoles don't follow the same laws as pc gaming haha.

 

[RoboFu]

you mean the GPU right

They are one and the same

 

[mansoor1980]

They are one and the same

APU

 

[rofif]

Main takeaway from me: UE5 does not have high requirements for the SSD. The Valley demo was all over with "only possible on PS5 because SSD" which is now evidently proven wrong. And it's great that this isn't required.

There are many more quick cuts in the matrix demo.
John goes on about this in the video. maybe pc IO could have some trouble with that

 

[Riky]

Correct.
VRS is only useful for VR in this day and age, especially with eye tracking.

Techniques like Dynamic Resolution and Upscaling is the preferred method as seen by Epic.

Since we've already seen Tier 2 VRS working alongside DRS in Doom Eternal and the developer saying how useful that was in increasing performance I think I can take their word for its usefulness.

 

[Zathalus]

Correct.
VRS is only useful for VR in this day and age, especially with eye tracking.

Techniques like Dynamic Resolution and Upscaling is the preferred method as seen by Epic.

You know all three technologies work perfectly fine together? DRS, upscaling and VRS have already been demonstrated to work quite well in Gears 5.

 

[Md Ray]

Lmao, Rich's comment about the Series S version looking like VCD to DVD with a hint of LaserDisc was hilarious.

 

[SlimySnake]

Main takeaway from me: UE5 does not have high requirements for the SSD. The Valley demo was all over with "only possible on PS5 because SSD" which is now evidently proven wrong. And it's great that this isn't required.

Literally just watched this part and saw them mention that the streaming file is something super small like 10 MB. Apparently everything with nanite is virtual textures. So why did Cerny put so much effort into improving the I/O for streaming?

 

[Loxus]

They obviously didn't read the article on DF

"
Since the first debut of the Lumen in the Land of Nanite demo, there has been the perception that the mass bandwidth of the SSD in PlayStation 5 is what makes the Nanite system possible. However, the whole point of the virtualised texturing system used by Nanite is that it's actually very lightweight in bandwidth - the only detail streamed in is that which is required onscreen at any given point. "This distinguishes it from traditional engines... [with Nanite] it's very gradual," says Michal Valient. "As you move around, it hovers at like 10MB per second, because we stream bits of textures, bits of Nanite data... we stream textures or small tiles as you need them. As you render them, Nanite picks the actual little clusters of triangles you need to render that particular view. And we stream just that, so we don't over-stream too much"

Sort of puts that theory to bed once and for all.

It was this part of Lumen in the Land of Nanite demo that many think required fast streaming, not Nanite in general.

 

[Riky]

It was this part Lumen in the Land of Nanite demo that many think required fast streaming, not Nanite in general.

They think wrong, the article says so.

 

[Leyasu]

I'm not salty about the way the demo came out I'm pointing out that he didn't show them both while speeding through the city

Go and look at Elanalistadabits video. He does exactly what you think that DF are not doing

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Since we've already seen Tier 2 VRS working alongside DRS in Doom Eternal and the developer saying how useful that was in increasing performance I think I can take their word for its usefulness.

You know all three technologies work perfectly fine together? DRS, upscaling and VRS have already been demonstrated to work quite well in Gears 5.

This is not about whether or not it works... It's just that it causes artefacts.. if you think it's useful in a unique enough way it's your opinion and I can't decide for these devlopers if it's "useful" or not, all I'm saying is that it's not "free" and I don't think it's that unique (Sony did something called multi-resolution shading on the ps4pro for psvr).

So I'm not sure how much touting and second guessing of developers choice is worth your time, unless you are really looking for excuses for MS.

 

[SlimySnake]

Jesus, just got to the series s comparison. Whats up with these pixelated artifacts? They are calling it macro blocking, but it looks way worse than any 720p image ive seen. It's super grainy as if chromatic abberation and film grain had a threesome with youtube artifacts.

Am I the only one seeing this? we are so worried about resolution and other downgrades, but the IQ is far worse than the resolution count.

 

[Riky]

This is not about whether or not it works... It's just that it causes artefacts.. if you think it's useful in a unique enough way it's your opinion and I can't decide for these devlopers if it's "useful" or not, all I'm saying is that it's not "free" and I don't think it's that unique (Sony did something called multi-resolution shading on the ps4pro for psvr).

So I'm not sure how much touting and second guessing of developers choice is worth your time, unless you are really looking for excuses for MS.

I just take what the developers who are actually using it say, id said they wish every platform supported it, I don't think it gets any clearer than that.

 

[onQ123]

Jesus, just got to the series s comparison. Whats up with these pixelated artifacts? They are calling it macro blocking, but it looks way worse than any 720p image ive seen. It's super grainy as if chromatic abberation and film grain had a threesome with youtube artifacts.

Am I the only one seeing this? we are so worried about resolution and other downgrades, but the IQ is far worse than the resolution count.

Could be VRS mixed with TSR also mixed with RT noise

 

[Kenpachii]

Probably TSR that does it.

 

[elliot5]

Some interesting tweets I just saw with some more context, from an engineer at Epic

 

[SlimySnake]

Well, this basically puts an X over the software based Lumens solution. That explains why even the series s is using hardware accelerated lumens in this demo. Alex said that it might only be feasible in games set in non-urban environments. But if you need lumen to handle GI and reflections, you are gonna have to settle for 1080p 30 fps for the rest of the gen.

Love it. Give me 1080p 30 fps or give me cross gen death.

 

[Riky]

Some interesting tweets I just saw with some more context, from an engineer at Epic

Confirms that The Coalition are not just optimising the Xbox versions, they are influencing the entire engine.

 

[Iced Arcade]

It's been a year and some of you still argue the same shit in every thread.

 

[Sosokrates]

Guy singlehandedly ruined the channel for me. He practically forced his way on the team like some comical protagonist in a 90s Disney movie just persisting until he gets what he wants in the end. Did you see how he got hired? Dude made his own fake digital foundry video like he was already an employee.

Is that video still up? I would like to see that.

 

[Epic Sax CEO]

Gaf... Gaf never changes...
I wonder how long will take for the people pointing "pop in" to realize that what they are seeing ins't pop in.
One day? One week? Never and they will keep repeating this the entirely of 2022?

 

[DenchDeckard]

they didnt last gen because MS and Sony didnt bother upgrading the jaguar CPUs. next gen CPUs should be able to hit 60 fps if there is enough GPU power to render 2x more pixels.

No they are both on par. PS5 has a 1 fps advantage in literally one shot. But being on par when there is an 18% tflops difference is weird and thats why people are bringing up ram configurations because it simply shouldnt happen. ive said this before but a 2080 should never outperform a 2080 super.

This is why I don't understand this gen. It doesn't work anything like pc gaming no point in questioning it and just treat both xonsoles as more or less identical imo.

 

[RoadHazard]

Well, this basically puts an X over the software based Lumens solution. That explains why even the series s is using hardware accelerated lumens in this demo. Alex said that it might only be feasible in games set in non-urban environments. But if you need lumen to handle GI and reflections, you are gonna have to settle for 1080p 30 fps for the rest of the gen.

Love it. Give me 1080p 30 fps or give me cross gen death.

Those images don't represent anything you would see on screen though, they are what software Lumen "sees" when casting rays to calculate bounce lighting etc. So basically it would have a lot lower precision than hardware RT.

 

[Loxus]

Confirms that The Coalition are not just optimising the Xbox versions, they are influencing the entire engine.

If that was the case, wouldn't he have said "we maintain" instead of "we don't maintain"?

That sounds like Epic optimized one engine version and Coalition did the other version.

Epic did do The Land of Lumen demo without Sony.

 

[SlimySnake]

Some interesting tweets I just saw with some more context, from an engineer at Epic

Not a fan of how Alex made the comparisons in this video. Very lazy. it's a 50 minute video so it's not like they were starved for time.

He makes a great benchmark for the PS5. Gets in the Crown Victoria right off the bat and drives in a straight line. You see drops down to 24 fps. Fantastic stress test right off the bat, right? Nope. He cuts to the XSX using a slow fucking soccer mom SUV and starts the clip on a different road. Just do the same thing. He used to be good at stuff like this. Tom Morgan must be rubbing off on him. PS5 dips to 20 fps at one point, but we have no comparison for the XSX at that place and scenario. Series S performance? 'Like 720p-ish', 'Lower', 'Yep'. Come on lol be better than that.

NXGamer For your detailed comparison vid, Can you please see if you can grab a Porsche right as you are dropped in the open world and just drive it down that same road for each console? Oddly enough, the better looking chase sequences runs at 30 fps on both consoles with very few drops. It's the city where the framerate dips to 24 fps just driving around. Turning off traffic might help recreate similar scenarios.

 

[elliot5]

If that was the case, wouldn't he have said "we maintain" instead of "we don't maintain"?

That sounds like Epic optimized one engine version and Coalition did the other version.

Epic did do The Land of Lumen demo without Sony.

what?
TC made optimizations to Epic's pipeline for this tech demo which is at the engine level. The engine is not segmented per platform. It is platform agnostic. That's what Guillaume was saying and what Riky was reiterating. That TC did not just work on the Xbox builds of the tech demo, but the engine which impacts all platforms.

 

[Riky]

If that was the case, wouldn't he have said "we maintain" instead of "we don't maintain"?

That sounds like Epic optimized one engine version and Coalition did the other version.

Epic did do The Land of Lumen demo without Sony.

?

It's pretty clear, we don't maintain separate engine versions.

Saying whatever The Coalition came up with was integrated into the engine for all versions

 

[Sosokrates]

This is why I don't understand this gen. It doesn't work anything like pc gaming no point in questioning it and just treat both xonsoles as more or less identical imo.

Its similer to PCs ising different apis and os's.

Dx12, vulcan and other apis can get vastly different results even using identical hardware.

Devs have said a the Playstation APi's are more performent the xbox's.

To put things into perspective this gen is like if the PS4 pro was 5.2tflops with 9gb @272Gb RAM

 

[McCheese]

DF not being sure what was real-time and what as pre-rendered says it all really, looks incredible for a small-team project. Half the stuff I thought was pre-rendered wasn't it turns out (the bullet time scene etc). Rough around the edges, but by the end of this gen we're going to have cinema quality games.

 

[Negotiator101]

Of course he did. It was expected. From the start (since 2 years ago) in his mind PS5 couldn't have the advantage in a compute heavy game so he made it so.

Get a life for God's sake

 

[bentanchorbolt]

This thread is cancer.

 

[Barakov]

Guy singlehandedly ruined the channel for me. He practically forced his way on the team like some comical protagonist in a 90s Disney movie just persisting until he gets what he wants in the end. Did you see how he got hired? Dude made his own fake digital foundry video like he was already an employee.

Something I'd definitely expect from a BDSM enthusiast.

 

[Loxus]

?

It's pretty clear, we don't maintain separate engine versions.

Saying whatever The Coalition came up with was integrated into the engine for all versions

How The Coalition Worked with Epic to Bring The Matrix Awakens to Life on Xbox Series X|S
While Epic created the demo, The Coalition got involved helping to refine and optimize their vision, having previously worked with Epic on UE4 support for Xbox Series X.

 

[elliot5]

How The Coalition Worked with Epic to Bring The Matrix Awakens to Life on Xbox Series X|S
While Epic created the demo, The Coalition got involved helping to refine and optimize their vision, having previously worked with Epic on UE4 support for Xbox Series X.

I don't understand your point. A literal fucking engineer on the project says the contrary of whatever you're trying to prove and you're still going for it?

 

[Riky]

How The Coalition Worked with Epic to Bring The Matrix Awakens to Life on Xbox Series X|S
While Epic created the demo, The Coalition got involved helping to refine and optimize their vision, having previously worked with Epic on UE4 support for Xbox Series X.

And?

They just said they don't maintain separate platform versions, meaning whatever optimisation The Coalition made goes into UE5 for all to benefit from.
I don't see why your arguing the point when that's what the tweet says.

 

[Riky]

I don't understand your point. A literal fucking engineer on the project says the contrary of whatever you're trying to prove and you're still going for it?

It's bizarre, they don't want to believe this, they don't want to believe the benefits of hardware VRS when the likes of Epic and id are specifically telling them the information.
They are just in utter denial.