For what it's worth, I have just upgraded from an RX6800 to a RX7900GRE which should be similar in it's power difference to ps5 to pro according to reviews, and it's a really substantial upgrade. In some games I am seeing twice the performance and yet the reviews seem to indicate it's not that high. So I really wouldn't worry
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Digital Foundry - Playstation 5 Pro specs analysis, also new information
- Thread starter Gaiff
- Start date
Depending on fill rate, that's the lowest bound if I did my calculations right.
Also, unless the CPU is a server bottleneck or the mishmash of RDNA3+ is too a problem,how is the Pro only 45% better than the PS5? Something doesn't seem right.
winjer
Gold Member
Yes he did, during CES 2021. But for the Laptop RTX 3060.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
"Faster than today’s flagship", when the desktop 3060 is still slower than a 2070S from the generation before.Yes he did, during CES 2021. But for the Laptop RTX 3060.
Nice going, Jacketman.
SKYF@ll
Member
According to DF, the XSX CPU is 10% slower than the 3600. (DD2)
The PS5 looks on par with the 3600 even though it has slightly lower clocks.
PS5:3.5GHz , XSX:3.66GHz *w/SMT
Mibu no ookami
Member
John might have been somewhat more positive than Rich or Alex, but that isn't saying much. You aren't going to get more positive than Olie who while still negative is at least not a fanboy.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
That kinda performance differential mostly comes down to the infinity cache and IPC gains. Not even clock speeds. The 3600 has a nominal clock of 3.6Ghz and a boost clock of 4.2Ghz. We can say its sitting at 3.8GHz most of the time. The 7800x3d, has a base clock of 4.2Ghz and a boost of 5Ghz. Chances are it is sitting at 4.8Ghz most of the time. And the 7800 has a whopping 64MB of infinity cache. So the clock speed difference is only like 24%.
Add IPC gains, infinity cache and 24% faster clock will explain the almost 2x performance gain.
The PS5 being on par with 3600 even though it has lower clocks is representative of the marginal advantage you should always give consoles (2-10%?) when compared to PC components because of the environment consoles usually operates in. Eg... even the profiler on the PC is using up some CPU resources.
Yea not really to bothered overall just obviously as I said seemed very negative and not quite sure what they expected. I'm not accusing them of being fanboys or anti playstaion, just you'd think as tech enthusiast's it would of been something they would of liked more. Most of us fell for the 12tf series x vs 10tf ps5 thinking that the extra flops would of made a massive difference and that includes digital foundry.
They seemed baffled when ps5 was out performing series x and I think they are underestimating the pro again. Obviously it could of had a better cpu upgrade but what it does have will make a very nice difference in games and DLSS like PSSR will be massive. Games that are 1440p on ps5 could render at 1080p on the pro and still look better which could leave even more performance room for the pro to scale higher in other areas. Also games that are 30fps are usually over 30fps by a bit so we could see more 40fps games for those that have 120hz screens.
DF are great I think each of them prefer certain platforms to others, like Alex does PC, and that's fine. I dont think they hate playstaion, I just think due to whatever reason some of their videos feel a little off sometimes like this one. It could deflate alot of people from getting a pro who don't understand just how better it more than likely will be. It felt like they just wanted to slap down the odd person saying the pro was going to double FPS and they came over a little smug about it.
Lethal01
Member
Assume that their "game 2" already has raytracing, but only in it's 30fps mode, and that is added to the 60fps mode
ChiefDada
Gold Member
Which of their 1st party games has gameplay RT in 30fps mode and not 60? GT7 ray tracing is restricted to replays. The only other games with RT is Insominac's which all have 60fps RT modes.
Tom also went against the grain and expressed his excitement for PS5 Pro some time ago.
Physiognomonics
Member
How do they know the PS5 is never limited by either bandwidth or GPU? Why don't they test with a 2070 to be sure? Why is the PS5 running up to 5fps faster than XSX in towns? they never ask the right questions. Just always trying to present some facts to push their toxic narrative.
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Loxus
Member
Whatever it's worth, the 7800xt has 44% more performance than both 6700xt/6750xt on average.
6700xt
7800xt
40CUs vs 60CUs would more than likely be equivalent to PS5 36CUs vs PS5 Pro with 54CUs.
Before the PS5 Pro was rumored to have 3 SE, which would of put it at 54CUs because of yields.
This scenario reminds me of this from Road to PS5.
54 CU @ 2.42GHz = 33.5 Tflops
60 CU @ 2.18GHz = 33.5 Tflops
I can't wait to see the PS5 Pro's die shot to see how Sony managed to place 64CUs in a chip.
The last chip that had 64CUs total was Vega 64.
I wouldn't even go that far. 10% clock speed differential is so inconsequentially small it can easily be lost in statistical noise of memory operations alone (and then some).
But yes - when you are running different software stacks, different compilers, etc. that 10% becomes even harder to quantify.
DF fell into this silliness many times last gen - talking about a few % CPU delta like it mattered.
And then struggling to explain away the counter examples (which were many) where the supposedly faster CPU was much more than 10% slower in some games because - well that's how software works on CPUs - you either execute the same exact codebase(compiler and all) - or you're not measuring hardware deltas.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Just watched some videos on FSR 3.1. Particularly, frame generation.
All I can say is that we are sleeping on this with PSSR. If a non-AI accelerated FSR can do FG as well as it does, then I think it's safe to say PSSR doing frame gen is a no-brainer. Would they use it and get games hovering around 50fps to a locked 60? or take a 40fps game to 70fps?
Could be interesting.
All I can say is that we are sleeping on this with PSSR. If a non-AI accelerated FSR can do FG as well as it does, then I think it's safe to say PSSR doing frame gen is a no-brainer. Would they use it and get games hovering around 50fps to a locked 60? or take a 40fps game to 70fps?
Could be interesting.
SmokSmog
Member
PS5 Pro N4P 500$
PS5 Slim N4P 400$
PS5 Pro will use this new optimized PS5 case, same power supply (350W), same power limit as current PS5 (230W~ peak), same mobo, bigger SSD, swapped Pro APU and swapped 18Gb/s GDDR6 modules.
PS5 Slim will be even smaller with sub 200mm2 N4P die and low 120W~ power consumption. Why wouldn't they make PS5 Slim on N4P when Zen2 will be already ported to it for PS5 Pro?
Change my mind! You can't.
Keep dreaming about 600-700$ box.
PS5 Slim N4P 400$
PS5 Pro will use this new optimized PS5 case, same power supply (350W), same power limit as current PS5 (230W~ peak), same mobo, bigger SSD, swapped Pro APU and swapped 18Gb/s GDDR6 modules.
PS5 Slim will be even smaller with sub 200mm2 N4P die and low 120W~ power consumption. Why wouldn't they make PS5 Slim on N4P when Zen2 will be already ported to it for PS5 Pro?
Change my mind! You can't.
Keep dreaming about 600-700$ box.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Because PS5 Pro is on 6nm
?
SmokSmog
Member
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Then why go through the problem of setting up this High Frequency CPU mode?
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Nope, he understands budgetsSo Mark Cerny lost his mind?
. PS5 Pro is the ultimate form of PS5, not PS6.They cannot and should throw money at the wall senselessly, so they need to focus on what PS5 Pro needs to be and use the R&D budget properly. PS6 is the next focus now.
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SmokSmog
Member
N4P aka 5nm+ should be economical for console manufacturers in Q4 2024.Nope, he understand budgets
They cannot and should throw money at the wall senselessly, so they need to focus on what PS5 Pro needs to be and use the R&D budget properly. PS6 is the next focus now.
This year Nvidia will release 800mm2+ 512bit GB202 on N4P.
Small GB207 ( smallest chip) will be using 200-250mm2 die.
PS5 Pro APU would be only 300mm2~.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Chiplet first of all, anything above 400mm2 on consumer HW I would call BS on 4-5nm or below as you hit optical equipment limits. Also, you do not start manufacturing PS5 Pro in Q4 but far sooner than that.
Economical does not mean free or cheaper than N6 and you also pay the cost to design the chip (or pay that in royalties to AMD, not a charity
).No matter how powerful they make it, PS5 Pro will not be anywhere near as fast as PS6 nor would developers be able to extract the required performance (nor would it be as fast as Xbox Next as again it could have exclusive software).
So, be pragmatic and focus on something that is both a meaningful improvement but also a focused one to make software architected for PS5 shine, it is their chance to fix mistakes in base PS5 and double down on its strengths.
Again, if Sony were to charge $998 or more for PS5 Pro I would be with you, but otherwise this is e-peen duelling with chip sizes.
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Kaiserstark
Member
Frame Gen need a certain minimum of rendered frames in order to work properly. 30 FPS will clearly note be enough but maybe if a game run at +40 FPS, you can start using it to get 60 FPS. For exemple AMD simply doesn't recommend using it if your game isn't running at 60fps.
I agree that having Frame Gen will be a very good get for the Pro if he can work well with a baseline around +40 FPS.
Right now we don't know if Sony will have implemented its own version of Frame Gen for the Pro but i agree with you that when you see the hardware of the pro and the PSSR, it will be a no-brainer to have Frame Gen but only if they can have good results with the games who already have a 40 FPS mode.
Specially if their Frame Gen is also using dedicated hardware for it.
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Radical_3d
Member
650€. You read it here first.
It wouldn't be senselessly, because N4P brings a big performance per watt advantage over N6. And though the new dies are more expensive I don't think we're at the point of seeing increasing costs per transistor. So at least the manufacturing cost should be no higher.Nope, he understands budgets
They cannot and should throw money at the wall senselessly, so they need to focus on what PS5 Pro needs to be and use the R&D budget properly. PS6 is the next focus now.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Again, I am not disputing that it has no advantage, but just saying that they are not pushing the new console to be a PS6. They are not pushing clock speed and size of the chip to the limits.
Does PS5 Pro need to spend money to jump on the costlier and more crowded N4-N5 train (trying to get capacity Apple and others are bidding on) if N6 can power what they need PS5 Pro to be?
Not enough time has passed from PS5’s launch to pragmatically build a console that far eclipses PS5 and Pro consoles would have no exclusive software to begin with.
It is higher though, it is just the only way to get performance and transistors density increases (at a lower power budget).
If they get a great deal from AMD and TSMC and they port both PS5 Slim and PS5 Pro to N4 later on great (chance to reduce costs and save on cooling even further), but otherwise I think they will save the investment and pour it into PS6 (as ai think they should).
They want to be aggressive and well prepared with PS6 if MS is going to try to disrupt the market.
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The reported prices per wafer from industry sources were $10k for N7 Vs $17k for N5. Taking into account the density improvements, that gives a modest improvement in cost per transistor. I would expect variants of these processes to be priced similarly.
So yes building a refreshed PS5/XSX chip on a newer process may not be economical since the cost/transistor isn't going down much and you have to cover the chip design costs. But that doesn't apply if you have already decided to make a new APU.
The only way I can see 6N being cheaper to manufacture is if TSMC gave Sony some kind of crazy special deal on 6N wafers.
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TheRedRiders
Member
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
It is not just the cost per wafer (which btw I expect N5 and N4 to be already bought up by the likes of Apple in quantity). I would not compete with them on procurement.
Again, cost per transistor is like “the more you buy the more you save” level of economics in a way. Good if you are targeting a need that requires that level of complexity anyways, but not good if you are not.
Unless AMD gave them a good deal on both Slim and Pro and both Zen 2 and RDNA3 are available or easier to port to N6 (rather than asking them for Zen 2 on N5 or below or packing a newer Zen4c core which again it is more work than what Sony deemed the PS5 Pro to need and I am not sure they are wrong either).
It is likely there is more inventory available. Easier for AMD to support Slim and Pro SoC and more inventory for TSMC so cheaper for Sony and less risk of shortages.
Loxus
Member
If Sony is using 4nm, they're probably using chiplets as well to offset the cost of 4nm.
This is what I thought the PS5 Pro would of end up being.
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playsaves3
Member
Zen 5 specifically the 8700x but cut down and add 3d cache if possible
playsaves3
Member
Feel like the pro is more a 4070 ti I think the 4070 claims are just aiming to be as conservative as possible for likely worst case scenariosMost of this gold is from this thread:
Rumor - Insider Gaming: PS5 Super Resolution will be aiming for 4K120FPS (future console iterations)
https://insider-gaming.com/playstations-spectral-super-resolution-pssr/ PlayStation’s new Spectral Super Resolution (PSSR), which will first be integrated into the PlayStation 5 Pro is internally aiming for 4K 120 FPS and 8K 60FPS console gaming, Insider Gaming has learned.www.neogaf.com
I love it!
PSSR only needs to be close to DLSS to make massive difference, this is the best thing about this console alongside RT upgrade.
Changing subject here, I think that Pro will be able to deliver Path Tracing games in 30FPS IF RT performance is close to what Nvidia is doing.
I have 3080ti and this GPU is ~20% better than 4070 and that GPU is rumored to be around the power of PS5 Pro.
I can do vanilla path tracing with 3200x1800 resolution with DLSS Performance (~900p internal) and it runs surprisingly well:
I think Pro could easily run this in 30FPS if it's 4070 performance
But there is also this little mod that changes parameters of PT, instead if 2 rays and 2 bounces we have 2 rays and 1 bounce. Game looks very close but runs much better:
Pro could run this in 40FPS no problem ^
SonGoku
Member
What makes you so sure? Have you seen secret info or just a guess?Because PS5 Pro is on 6nm
The "confirmed" leak does not mention 6nm afaik
But PS5 Pro is not RDNA3...
At this point i would be happy with 4070 level and fear we might get 4060ti/3070
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
At this point i would be happy with 4070 level and fear we might get 4060ti/3070
How is this even remotely possible even if you take the 45% figure at face value? Some of y'all are taking FUD to unprecedented heights with these gloom and doom takes.
Bojji
Member
Based on numbers it will be around 4070 in the best case scenario (in pure numbers it's around 6800 or slightly below), 4070ti is more than 20% above that.
If you inflate your expectations this high you will end up disappointed. Obviously Pro will deliver beautiful games but there are limits to what could be done with certain power, die size and price barriers.
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playsaves3
Member
I should clarify I mean game performance not hardware grunt
playsaves3
Member
Let’s wait for more info to be confirmed I think a couple specs will get updated before release.
Ashamam
Member
If by update you mean some specs might change then I don't think so. They would be into manufacturing now. Procurement ship will have sailed.
I'm not sure we get much more info until the official announcement, and even then thats only likely to confirm what we know now plus the GPU frequency (which will be new). Any leaks going forward I think will be around how performant it is.
Loxus
Member
Assuming Sony would continue tweaking Zen2 density and PS5 Pro being RDNA3.5.
Using Zen4c and RDNA3 die shots. I made an 8 Core, 60CU, 256-bit bus APU.
This APU measures ~280mm² on 5nm.
PS5 7nm = 308 mm²
PS5 6nm = ~260mm²
This one, which is what I would like from a console, has 12 Cores, 60CUs and a 320-bit bus for 20GB of GDDR6.
Which measures ~316mm² on 5nm.
64CUs may be around 300mm² on 5nm.
The Pro on 4nm maybe unlikely.
Using Zen4c and RDNA3 die shots. I made an 8 Core, 60CU, 256-bit bus APU.
This APU measures ~280mm² on 5nm.
PS5 7nm = 308 mm²
PS5 6nm = ~260mm²
This one, which is what I would like from a console, has 12 Cores, 60CUs and a 320-bit bus for 20GB of GDDR6.
Which measures ~316mm² on 5nm.
64CUs may be around 300mm² on 5nm.
The Pro on 4nm maybe unlikely.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
playsaves3
Member
There is no reason they have to make the pro cheap for one if anything the average opinion would prefer something more expensive. I also think your greatly exaggerating the price
Mr.Phoenix
Member
From the raw numbers, its on par with a 4070 super. Or thats its closest match on the Nvidia side of things.
4070Super = 35.5TF (17.75TF), 12GB, 504GB/s.
4070 = 29.15TF (14.57TF), 12GB, 504GB/s.
PS5pro = 33.5TF (16.75TF), 13.7GB, 576GB/s.
I think it safe to say, that if the RT is anywhere close to what RT is like on the Nvidia cards, or at least for non-RT-based workloads, the PS5pro would literally land somewhere in the middle of those two cards performance-wise. That's being within spitting distance of a $600 GPU.
playsaves3
Member
Clock speeds and frequency can change
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Is that like saying, clock speeds and clock speeds can change?
While you are right, in truth we don't even know what the clock speeds really are right now. Except of course the CPU clocks. As for the GPU, we don't know what its actual clocks are.
But yes, it's possible they can say something like CPu can be clocked at 4Ghz. Highly unlikely though, I have been trying to explain why that is "from a Sony perspective".
silent head
Member
Is this image correct about PS5 Pro's 45% increase in rasterization performance (without RT)?
(Horizon Forbidden West ) PS5 = 3070 / 2080TI
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