Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
No, it won't. PSSR has nothing to do with the CPU. The only way to do something about the CPU limitations is to add frame generation.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Digital Foundry - Playstation 5 Pro specs analysis, also new information
- Thread starter Gaiff
- Start date
NeonDelta
Member
I refuse to believe that idiot is a grown man
foamdino
Member
It's interesting how negative they are about this (having watched the first 30 mins).
I think it's a great kicking off point for the new PSSSR upscaling and we already have rumours of some games running very well on it - so all the doom and gloom about "everything will still be 30fps" I think is a little premature. I suspect that it is a little lop-sided with respect to GPU vs CPU balance - however I suspect that Sony/Cerny has a good idea (telemetry) of exactly where games are being bottle-necked and the design reflects how to remove the bottle necks without causing the devs any pain.
Grafting a Zen4c into this was *never* going to happen - Cerny has been clear that he thinks new CPU == new generation, pro consoles are explicitly not next-gen. Using an identical CPU (zen2) just makes it easy for devs to not have to worry about compatibility concerns across base PS5 and PS5 pro. If you want a new cpu, wait for PS6 (or indeed the nxt-box [scheduled for 2025]).
Also amusing that Alex goes off on a "TFs are not everything speech" (exact opposite message being conveyed 4 years ago when 12 TF Xbox Series X was obviously > PS5 - even when everyone with half a brain could see that raw theoretical compute of a GPU is a meaningless measurement).
I think it's a great kicking off point for the new PSSSR upscaling and we already have rumours of some games running very well on it - so all the doom and gloom about "everything will still be 30fps" I think is a little premature. I suspect that it is a little lop-sided with respect to GPU vs CPU balance - however I suspect that Sony/Cerny has a good idea (telemetry) of exactly where games are being bottle-necked and the design reflects how to remove the bottle necks without causing the devs any pain.
Grafting a Zen4c into this was *never* going to happen - Cerny has been clear that he thinks new CPU == new generation, pro consoles are explicitly not next-gen. Using an identical CPU (zen2) just makes it easy for devs to not have to worry about compatibility concerns across base PS5 and PS5 pro. If you want a new cpu, wait for PS6 (or indeed the nxt-box [scheduled for 2025]).
Also amusing that Alex goes off on a "TFs are not everything speech" (exact opposite message being conveyed 4 years ago when 12 TF Xbox Series X was obviously > PS5 - even when everyone with half a brain could see that raw theoretical compute of a GPU is a meaningless measurement).
splattered
Member
I dont see how this is a disappointment...
Same CPU yeah but you're going to be playing all the previous/current/near-future games on this, just like the PS4 Pro and One X.
If PS6 releases with a Zen2 CPU then sure yeah complain away.
Same CPU yeah but you're going to be playing all the previous/current/near-future games on this, just like the PS4 Pro and One X.
If PS6 releases with a Zen2 CPU then sure yeah complain away.
Snake29
RSI Employee of the Year
Which could still be part of it since PSSR IS still in development and also for future consoles. It’s the same as Nvidia adding new features for DLSS.
Last edited:
SplunkyMunkey
Member
In cerny we trust! Ps5 pro will be a fantastic upgrade. Weren't DF was worried for ps5 against the series x? sony proved that TF didn't matter and with the ps5 pro design and the pssr sony will probably proof something again
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I wonder if GTA6 can hit 40 fps on the Pro and then they use framegen to hit 60 fps.
Also, rockstar is crazy. i wouldnt be surprised if it ships with a 60 fps mode on consoles. The thing is most other devs have shown themselves to be completely incompetent when adding 60 fps modes. Virtually every single game with RT leaves out RT in their 60 fps modes. Then they reduce the resolution to the point where it becomes a joke like skull bones. The rare devs like insomniac, rockstar and i guess other sony devs might have the resources to pull a rabbit out of the hat, but these others devs are not going to utilize any of this shit effectively.
daninthemix
Member
I think Sony should be applauded for matching Nvidia’s technology circa 2018.
Playboi Carti
Member
Short answer yes
mansoor1980
Gold Member
if its a GPU limited game then yes
rickybooby87
Member
Serious question, why are some folks only expecting a 30fps mode in GTA6? Are we really saying, that Zen2 architecture as a whole, is incapable of hitting 60FPS or more? If that was the case, are we forgetting about the bevy of games that have 60fps/120fps modes on current gen consoles? Some of the arguments are downright disingenuous and reeks of extreme SALTY TEARS.
PlayStation's DLSS will save us all from vaseline hell.
PlayStation's DLSS will save us all from vaseline hell.
foamdino
Member
If you have a game now that has to devote most calculations to the CPU as the GPU is flat out using 36 CUs for rendering logic and you suddenly say "hey here's another 24 CUs, oh and they're better and they do all this other stuff..."
Why as a dev wouldn't you move some of your logic onto *at least some of these additional CUs* (if you have a job system that can utilise CUs in this fashion)?
This is why I'm waiting for actual game performance instead of looking at the CPU and saying "oh that's terrible"...
Why as a dev wouldn't you move some of your logic onto *at least some of these additional CUs* (if you have a job system that can utilise CUs in this fashion)?
This is why I'm waiting for actual game performance instead of looking at the CPU and saying "oh that's terrible"...
Sneakysnake
Member
So they are really doing all this just to have GTA6 be 30fps on the PS5 pro?! Wtf I was finally in on a PlayStation. The first console to give me 60fps GTA, I will purchase. Otherwise I just wait for the PC launch. This is disappointing smh.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
I have tried warning people here for months when they saw the specs on paper they would be let down but wait and see it running.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
GASP! You mean the people who have been downplaying a PS5 Pro for months since they were desperately wanting a mid-gen Xbox Series Pro, are downplaying the improvements of the leaked specs for PS5 Pro?
I would have NEVER guessed Digital Foundry would do such a thing. Keep in mind, these are the same dudes constantly surprised when PS5 outperforms Series X in whatever multiplat 3+ years after release, like they could've never seen it coming.
I'd much rather wait for NX Gamer's take on the specs, if I'm looking for a professional tech-focused analysis. DF lost that credibility years ago.
The only really negative thing about Pro's specs IMO is no RAM capacity increase. Most of the other choices, I feel, can be rationalized easily.
RAM bandwidth? Better memory subsystem including the caches on CPU & GPU.
CPU clock? PS5 & Pro BC for PS6 has to be taken into consideration.
TF? They're not that important for game performance, plus code optimized for dual-issue will leverage a lot of the 33.5 TF number.
The real stuff of interest for PS5 Pro tech-wise, to me, is the PSSR upscaling. I feel like it's going to be thought of lightly like the PS5's I/O subsystem, because people are just looking at (generally very PC-centric) performance metrics and comparing the consoles to that. But like with base PS5, the actual games will punch above whatever paper specs people feel are disappointing.
I would have NEVER guessed Digital Foundry would do such a thing. Keep in mind, these are the same dudes constantly surprised when PS5 outperforms Series X in whatever multiplat 3+ years after release, like they could've never seen it coming.
I'd much rather wait for NX Gamer's take on the specs, if I'm looking for a professional tech-focused analysis. DF lost that credibility years ago.
The only really negative thing about Pro's specs IMO is no RAM capacity increase. Most of the other choices, I feel, can be rationalized easily.
RAM bandwidth? Better memory subsystem including the caches on CPU & GPU.
CPU clock? PS5 & Pro BC for PS6 has to be taken into consideration.
TF? They're not that important for game performance, plus code optimized for dual-issue will leverage a lot of the 33.5 TF number.
The real stuff of interest for PS5 Pro tech-wise, to me, is the PSSR upscaling. I feel like it's going to be thought of lightly like the PS5's I/O subsystem, because people are just looking at (generally very PC-centric) performance metrics and comparing the consoles to that. But like with base PS5, the actual games will punch above whatever paper specs people feel are disappointing.
Last edited:
Snake29
RSI Employee of the Year
Since Senua is laughing at your comment. He will be one of them crying. Reminds me of his discussion around Forza 8 and GT7. Look which people were wrong (again).
Last edited:
Magic Carpet
Member
R6Rider
Gold Member
Came here to post this.
Sneakysnake
Member
Simply not have games work right now. In the bear future, maybe. Funny enough Nvidia just released RTX IO today for Portal Rtx which allows the GPU to take over the calculations the CPU normally would (much you like described) but today, that does not really happen...maybe to a much lesser degree and even then you would need the devs to do a LOT of work for very little effect. Not realistic today. Prepare for 30fps GTA6 on the PS5 pro.
Senua
Gold Member
Senua
Gold Member
He's absolutely fine in this video
Salty Pickle
Neo Member
The gain happens when you can run the same game in ”quality mode” at 1440p (or 1080p even) internally and upscale to 4k instead of running it at 1800p and upscale to 4k without any percievable loss in image quality. There you have the 60 fps instead of locked 30.
Also what games on PS5 today is confirmed to be CPU-limited? Just because said game is CPU-limited on PC doesn’t necessarily mean it’s CPU-limited on console. What I’m trying to say is that Sony have all the metrics on this for sure so why not give them the benefit of the doubt? They know their shit.
foamdino
Member
I'm fairly certain Naughty Dog (and perhaps other Sony teams) do use job systems like this (they have all that experience of using the SPUs on the PS3).
I think first-party Sony games will behave much better than is being predicted in this thread - how difficult it is to gain those advantages in other 3rd-party games <shrug> - I suspect Unreal will work in this fashion up to a point.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
And I have said this month sgao, games that have a CPU bottleneck currently, would not be made to hit 60fps, even when I thought the CPU would be clocked as high as 4.4Ghz. That does not mean that those games that peak at 30fps on the PS5, due to that CPU bottleneck, will not have a solid locked 40fps mode on the PS5pro.
And as for any game that will have a 60fps mode or even an unlocked fps mode that has its framerate hovering around the upper 40s or 50fps, the Pro will get those to 60fps.
My issue with what you say is the extremist black-and-white takes you have. Whereas these things are never that cut and dry.
Yes, PSSR will have a cost, sony has said that 1080p > 4K will cost 2ms. Going from 1440p>4K will cost less, but then the argument can be made that the extra pixels rendered with 1440p vs 1080p will cost more than just rendering at 1080p and using PSSR to reconstruct to 4K. But what is important here is, FSR also has a cost (or any other reconstruction method for that matter), and its been documented to cost 2ms on consoles. So PSSR is not adding a cost that is not already there, it's replacing what is already there. And even better, with AI upscalers, over time, that cost will drop.
So that talk of it taking most of that 45% to handle the reconstruction is just nonsense. You also cant say its taking an addition 250MB, when Sony has literally given devs 1.2GB more RAM to use on the PS5pro.
And this is the issue I have with your conclusions, you talk like you and everything that has to do with consoles or game development exists in this digital vacuum. Whereas in practice, that couldn't be further from the truth. I mean we could literally have a situation where 1080P>4K PSSR returns IQ better than running 1800p native. And you will sit here and say that will not free up any resources? really?
Your approach to this is, well if it doesn't have this then everything else is useless (which I honestly think is a very limited or ignorant way of looking at things). Mine is that I have seen time without number that devs go about managing console resources in very interesting ways. I have also seen a fair number of games that have a 60fps mode. Fact of the matter is that there are more games with a 60fps mode than those without. Even Alan Wake 2 has a 60fps mode... and thats the poster child for UE5 third-party games currently. If the CPU was such a humongous bottleneck, I strongly doubt sony would have bothered wit hthis thing at all. I at least assume that we can all agree that sony has a better idea of what they are doing than any of us here?
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
He's a lot more knowledgeable and honest about gaming tech stuff than DF's been the past couple of years.
Only DF content really worth watching regularly are John's DF Retro vids.
sncvsrtoip
Member
It takes 2ms so same amount as fsr2 on xsx (Alex said that in video)
Yeah literally nobody rational was expecting a CPU upgrade.
The extra GPU performance is less than we expected back when the thing was first rumoured, but the PSDLSS means effective resolution increases of like 3x compared to the expected 2x or so.
So for unpatched games it will be a bit underwhelming, but for patched games it'll be excellent.
I'd probably take that deal tbh.
Last edited:
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Fuck no lmao. Dude is a certified fanboy.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
It's not about resources; it's about giving a damn in the first place. Most devs simply don't care, so they don't try. But that's on them, that's their gamble.
He has a preference, just like Richard and Alex have their preferences (Xbox, PC respectively). NX Gamer usually goes into more detail on differences between versions of games whereas DF curiously skimp on certain things.
The Ghostwire Tokyo RT comparisons are a good example.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Even this is not a negative. Because (1) they did increase the RAM available to devs from 12.5GB to 13.7GB. ANd that is to cover (as I expected) the cost of things like PSSR and better RT. As for everything else, (2) I mentioned months ago, in one of my what the PS5pro is designed to be rants, that they wouldn't need more RAM per se because they are not doing things like rendering more geometry or using higher rez textures to what is already on the base PS5. All they are doing is taking what is taking what is the PS5 quality mode and trying to get that to as high a framerate as possible.
Ti achieve that, what you need is more bandwidth, not more RAM. The things they are doing on top what the og PS5 can do, are the things they need to account for with more RAM, and that is why we are getting the additional 1.2GB.
MisterXDTV
Member
People here are forgetting this is PS5 Pro not PS6
And by definition this console will NEVER have exclusive software as everything has to run on the base model.....
We saw what happened with Series X with the burden of Series S
And by definition this console will NEVER have exclusive software as everything has to run on the base model.....
We saw what happened with Series X with the burden of Series S
Last edited:
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Plus some act like they are forced to buy it
Zathalus
Member
They said they didn't see the need for a PS5 Pro, but I don't recall them ever asking for a Xbox Series Pro.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
yeah, which means it will affect the framerate. dont you game on pc? You cant test this out right now. run something at 1440p native, capture the framerate, then run it again at 4k dlss quality. you will get fewer fps. because it didnt free up resources. because it took resources from the gpu to get you that cleaner image.
i dont know why anyone on this board is refuting this. we've known this for over half a decade now.
marquimvfs
Member
I won't ever buy a console near launch again, that's bullshit. Just wait for the pro, and if the price is right and there's enough games to justify the purchase, then I can give my money away.
saintjules
Member
MisterXDTV
Member
13.7 GB VRAM available to games is a big deal for a console, no doubt about that
If you translate that in the PC space where VRAM could be shared with Windows' other apps.... it could be equivalent to more than 16
Last edited:
RoadHazard
Gold Member
What's the big "mystery"? Have they completely missed all the recent games running at absolutely abysmal resolutions in performance mode? Yes, 4K is "more than enough", but we're nowhere near 4K in most games.
I don't understand their confusion as to why a Pro is needed. It's incredibly obvious, and for them of all people (given what they do) it should be doubly so. Really weird!
Last edited:
Maybe? I think It was a Digital Foundry article with A4 Games and a segment of the article talked about asynchronous compute/physics either being ran on the GPU or CPU and the varied nature of PC is why if a developer chose to do a certain operation,it would be easier on a console because it's generally the same hardware.
Krappadizzle
Member
I LOVE the defense force in here. It's the usual suspects. Keep fighting the good fight soldiers!
Mr.Phoenix
Member
I don't think they are forgetting anything. I could tell you the people that would ultimately try and shit on this thing regardless months ago. Even when we already knew that we were not going to see a CPU upgrade.
What I find unsettling is how these people simply ignore or dismiss everything else that the Pro does bring to the table, all things that come with their own advantages.
If you were new to this, you would think that 90% of all the games on the PS5 currently only run at 30fps. And not just run at 30fps, but barely manage to hit 30fps which would mean they are internally running at like 27fps-34fps. And as such, without a CPU upgrade, they are going to be stuck there.
But that couldn't be further from the truth. About that 90% I mentioned of games actually have a 60fps mode. So it's the other way around. But how you can tell people pushing weird agendas, is that they would ignore the 90% that has a 60fps mode, and focus on the 10% that doesn't. Weird if you ask me. When the sensible thing to do would have been to instead look at it and go, sony clearly made a decision that would benefit the majority of software on their platform.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
A few observations:
* CPU performance shouldn't be an issue. Period. Reality is that games have not jumped in workload complexity relative to the gains made going from Jaguar to Zen 2 cores offers. If a developer is saturating those cores... outside of rare cases hard questions need to be asked. Heavy lifting can and should be offloaded to the GPU or other co-processors. I suspect the uprating on the tempest audio may well be part of this process.
* The back-porting of PSSR suggests that its back-end takes the same inputs as conventional non-AI based upscaling methods. Which makes sense as this should be mostly a black-boxed function.
* The fundamental goal of this system is, as I've stressed before, to run pre-existing PS5 software better with minimal impact to the development effort. This is a pretty narrow target, so everything needs to be viewed in light of this requirement. Spec-wise its almost exactly what I expected, and I'm still betting on that additional memory for programs being main-system ram pulled back from the system reservation with an additional slower cache bank that is reserved exclusively for OS use. This again will be black-boxed explaining why there's no information in this external partner focussed literature. They don't need to know, because they'll never be allowed to "touch it".
* CPU performance shouldn't be an issue. Period. Reality is that games have not jumped in workload complexity relative to the gains made going from Jaguar to Zen 2 cores offers. If a developer is saturating those cores... outside of rare cases hard questions need to be asked. Heavy lifting can and should be offloaded to the GPU or other co-processors. I suspect the uprating on the tempest audio may well be part of this process.
* The back-porting of PSSR suggests that its back-end takes the same inputs as conventional non-AI based upscaling methods. Which makes sense as this should be mostly a black-boxed function.
* The fundamental goal of this system is, as I've stressed before, to run pre-existing PS5 software better with minimal impact to the development effort. This is a pretty narrow target, so everything needs to be viewed in light of this requirement. Spec-wise its almost exactly what I expected, and I'm still betting on that additional memory for programs being main-system ram pulled back from the system reservation with an additional slower cache bank that is reserved exclusively for OS use. This again will be black-boxed explaining why there's no information in this external partner focussed literature. They don't need to know, because they'll never be allowed to "touch it".
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
I'm curious about their version of dlss. That could be the real star of the show. Sony has great upscaling in their TVs so I'm optimistic.
Salty Pickle
Neo Member
I feel like you are mixing apples and potatoes because when you upscale from 1440p to 4k you add those 2ms that weren’t there when you ran it natively at 1440p.
What will you get if you run it natively at 4k vs using dlss quality mode from 1440p to 4k?
reinking
Gold Member
How many times have you "been out" now?Same zen 2 cpu. 10% clock speed boost.
Im out.
Similar threads
- Locked