Support NeoGAF

[ShockingAlberto]

This thread... it's giving me a head ache with circles we're talking ourselves into. Can we even consider DC as being a "niche" game with attention it's drawn?

Someone, be they man, woman, or child, will always find something to be offended by. That's the way of world. But lately, in gaming, we've entered into this strange realm of thought wherein all games have to be as inoffensive as possible to all people. Why?! I find this train of thought incredibly frustrating as I see it as a form of creative censorship. If anything, this leads credence to that concept of video games being art just as films, books, and music are already considered to be.

If an individual is offended by a piece of art, that's okay. I'm not going to criticize them for their feelings and neither should anyone else. I will respect their opinion and choice to disagree with the subject matter just as that individual should respect my opinion and choice to both enjoy and support that same subject matter.

What I'm trying to say is that is okay to like or dislike an art form, in this case it's Katamani's character artwork within Dragon's Crown. But I do not think that it is acceptable at all to suggest that Katamani, as an artist, should rethink the way he chooses to express his creativity in order to be as inoffensive as possible. And these Kotaku articles are doing just that, not cool at all.

Schrier, I'm sorry your offended and I respect your opinion. But get off your soap box. Your suggested censorship is not appreciated.

"Censorship is terrible!

...by the way, stop saying outloud that you don't like something and that it would be better if it was rethought, that isn't allowed."

 

[Amneisac]

His idea of "discussion" is explicitly blaming it for misogyny. Maybe you should try reading what he's actually written.

I did read it, I agree with some of what he said, too. I think the art is clearly objectifying women. That's part of the discussion. We should always feel like we can discuss things that have bothered people to see what it is that bothered them. It doesn't mean we have to change our behavior, but it can't hurt to know how other people experience things.

 

[suzu]

Sure, he can dial her design back a bit or make the males more scantily clad too. I'd love that. But I don't understand boobs = dick. Do people actually want that?

The people levying criticism against Sorceress' designs consistently fail to take into account the context of the entire game, and instead look at her design in a vacuum. Sorceress (and the Frazetta homage) are simply two facets of a broader artistic vision.

But no, let's complain about Sorceress when there are so many other more egregious examples of sexism and objectification in gaming.

Seriously, I've been saying this from the start.

 

[ixix]

There's also a fundamental question implicit in this discussion as to whether or not auteurship in video games is inherently valuable.

I'm inclined to say that it is, personally, even if the ways in which it manifests itself are not usually particularly appealing to me.

 

[Tummi Gummi]

I'd just like to soapbox for a second and say that, personally, I think the people who claim that all fanservice in games that they like is actually 'satire' and 'making fun of sexism' are doing way more harm than jschreier.

People saying this about Lollipop Chainsaw are some of the worst offenders. They still make this claim, even after James Gunn has SPECIFICALLY GONE AGAINST THIS IN AN INTERVIEW. His stance was basically "yes, the protagonist's hyper-idealized, sexual look is wish-fulfillment - but, so what? A little bit of that is fine".

I will agree on this side-point. There's obviously a point at which it's critical to actually illustrate the thing you're mocking, but defending Bayonetta or Lollipop Chainsaw et al on the basis of "OTT" or "cheese" or "cultural differences" and therefore more acceptable than straight erotica is not a view I can sympathize with.

 

[sleepykyo]

Sure, he can dial her design back a bit or make the males more scantily clad too. I'd love that. But I don't understand boobs = dick. Do people actually want that?



Seriously, I've been saying this from the start.

Wouldn't know. And I still think it is a weird comparison, but I guess the thing is bigger is better applies to both.

 

[Reluctant-Hero]

"Censorship is terrible!

...by the way, stop saying outloud that you don't like something and that it would be better if it was rethought, that isn't allowed."

Hmm. I see you point, I wasn't trying to convey the notion that he should stop voicing his opinion. But I do think should accept that Katamani is entitled to express his creativity however he chooses to do so and should not suggest that he change his methods to better suit anyone.

 

[Amneisac]

Hmm. I see you point, I wasn't trying to convey the notion that he should stop voicing his opinion. But I do think should accept that Katamani is entitled to express his creativity however he chooses to do so and should not suggest that he change his methods to better suit anyone.

I didn't read it as he wants to censor Katamani, he explicitly said as much. "Artists" are free to create whatever art they want, but it doesn't mean that said art can't be offensive to women or unacceptable by the majority of society. Again to clarify, it's fine that art exists, but what harm is done by discussing why it was created and how it makes people feel? Think of all the "art" that depicted Black Americans in an unfavorable light, that's all but disappeared now (I'm talking about the overt stuff). Times change.

 

[Lombax]

What the fuck is going on in this thread?

I dont get it either. Trailer was dope looking forward to the game.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

I will agree on this side-point. There's obviously a point at which it's critical to actually illustrate the thing you're mocking, but defending Bayonetta or Lollipop Chainsaw et al on the basis of "OTT" or "cheese" or "cultural differences" and therefore more acceptable than straight erotica is not a view I can sympathize with.

The problem is that these claims are never actually true. Just because Suda51 games have made fun of cutesy moeblob anime in the past does not mean that EVERY INSTANCE OF AUDIENCE-PLEASING SEXUALIZATION in his games is going to be some kind of satirical commentary.

Actually, what is worth nothing is that the Bizarre Jelly designs were done by a guy who normally draws that kind of stuff without a hint of irony. So it doesn't even seem that mean-spirited - more "parody" than "satire" (and that's another pet peeve of mine - people don't know the difference between the two anymore).

Hideki Kamiya has not said anything about Bayonetta being 'satire' either. On the contrary, he's said that Bayonetta contains a little of what all the main staff members consider earnestly attractive in women.

 

[FalsettoVibe]

Looks pretty even to me.
Sorceress is hot, male counterpart has the pretty boy Sephiroth, bishi look.
Fighter has full armor archer is fully clothed with a average body. Both Dwarf and Amazon are muscular as fuck.




Honestly i think it would be better if artists like Kamitami paid no attention to people like you at all, and just kept on doing what they do best.

Wow. Crazy designs.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Well put. I'll add that images like this not only distort the human form to appeal to teenage fantasies, they serve to encourage the exclusionary tendencies of gaming culture. So many people already feel like they don't belong in the gaming world if they're not a straight male aged 12-30. Designs like this - and the designs of many other characters in many other games - perpetuate that. This is just one small example of a very big problem.

Do you really think this art style appeals ONLY to straight males aged 12 - 30? Can people not be calm and mature, or perhaps not even straight males, and still enjoy this art? I'm not saying I personally enjoy this exaggerated style, but I think you're making some sweeping generalizations and assumptions by saying that only a certain segment can enjoy this art.

 

[Moral Panic]

This post consists, in its entirety, of explaining why you want George Kamitani to censor himself. You employ pejoratives directed both at him and his work, categorizing it as juvenile, harmful, ostracizing, discomfiting, and sexist. In the first paragraph you imply that video games have harmful effects on men, women, and on a nebulously defined gaming culture, but do not substantiate this in any way.

Inserting a statement that you are not advocating self-censorship is absurd. Advocating for certain thematic and artistic elements to be off-limits in video games (in this case, sexualized female character designs) is an explicit and overt call for censorship.

You're advocating that Dragon's Crown be censored, and it's certainly your prerogative to do so, but pretending that you aren't is nothing short of ridiculous when you write multiple paragraphs extolling the importance of limiting the range of acceptable expression within the medium of video games in service to a greater -- albeit ill-defined -- goal. Your disclaimer doesn't change this one iota.

If you are sincere in your statement that you do not advocate self-censorship then I think you would do well to ask yourself how it came to be that you are doing precisely that.

According to this logic, if I claim a game has bad sexist writing then I am calling for censorship? Why is it different for designs?

Maybe you don't understand but there's a fundamental difference between criticism and censorship. No one is calling for the game to be cancelled or pulled off the shelf or even protesting or campaigning against the game. We are criticising it.

 

[michaelius]

I apologize that I don't have time to address every post in this thread, but I'll try to answer this. I think it's important for Kamitani and any other artists who draw similarly juvenile characters to consider the effect of their designs on men, on women, and on gaming culture as a whole. If even one woman feels ostracized or uncomfortable because of art like this - and, judging by the e-mails and messages I've gotten in the past day, quite a few women do feel that way - it's worth talking and thinking about.

I don't want him to censor himself. I want him to ask himself why he's drawing men and women with ridiculous proportions that seem designed to appeal to teenage boys, and I want him to think about how that can be harmful. That's the point of criticism: to get people thinking, and talking, and learning.

Like I've been saying all along, Dragon's Crown is hardly the only offender, and it's certainly not the most blatant example of sexist content in games. But it is one example, and for various reasons, it's the one we're discussing. Hopefully good things can come out of this.

Could you please stop spreading the bullshit that you don't want anyone to censor himself when two sentences earlier you are saying precisely that he should rethink his character design for the greater good of game industry ?

 

[Karsticles]

Do you really think this art style appeals ONLY to straight males aged 12 - 30? Can people not be calm and mature, or perhaps not even straight males, and still enjoy this art? I'm not saying I personally enjoy this exaggerated style, but I think you're making some sweeping generalizations and assumptions by saying that only a certain segment can enjoy this art.

My sister is pumped to play the Sorceress, and my wife wants to play the Elf. I previously thought they both wanted to play the Elf, but then my sister told me that she only tried to call dibs on the Elf because she thought I would pick the Sorceress before she got to it - haha. I'm still up in the air about what I'll play. Probably the Sorceress, Wizard, or Dwarf, since I lean toward those styles.

 

[KageMaru]

Such a beautiful game. I almost forgot about this, now I'm excited all over again. I usually play as the magic type, so it's great to see she is so well equipped.

Spoiler

=p

 

[Takuan]

I wonder if the Amazon will get this amount of attention.

She's more bare than the sorceress and her butt jiggles.

 

[Amneisac]

My sister is pumped to play the Sorceress, and my wife wants to play the Elf. I previously thought they both wanted to play the Elf, but then my sister told me that she only tried to call dibs on the Elf because she thought I would pick the Sorceress before she got to it - haha. I'm still up in the air about what I'll play. Probably the Sorceress, Wizard, or Dwarf, since I lean toward those styles.

Obviously she thought you were going to pick the Sorceress first because you're a straight male aged 18-30, right? So you're just reinforcing his point!

 

[Haly]

It doesn't mean we have to change our behavior, but it can't hurt to know how other people experience things.

I did a search in this thread for "female", "girlfriend", and "woman" and I've collated the results.

It's the same shit that happened with Bayo. These are obvious over the top characters with a theme in my mind that we're supposed to be offended by but if they're strong adept characters I frankly couldn't give a shit. There are much better examples of sexual objectification and flat ass weak characters but these journalists are stuck on sensationalist garbage pointing the finger at these Japanese RPGs.

I would also like to say that Schreier come across as a tool trying to white knight what makes women uncomfortable without knowing what really makes women uncomfortable. And it's not just characters with large breasts. It usually is when you dilute the female role to just an accessory that has no purpose or personality or power. Almost all my female gamer friends are looking forward to the game as well, we're excited for it. Because Vanillaware makes beautiful and fun games.

I am a woman, and I love how the Sorceress looks, I love how the whole game looks. I love Kamitani's style across all their games. I loved how Kongiku looked in Muramasa. I love how Queen Muse looks in Grand Knight's History. I love Vanillaware's art.

Of course we are all just people too, and women all have different opinions. Some might not like it, but don't put words in all our mouth saying it's embarrassing to play. I'm looking forward to playing Dragon's Crown, ANYWHERE. Train, family events, in my own bathroom. I don't give a shit.

showed the wifey, and since she has taken over vita duties in the house (going to have to get another soon lol) she wants it bad, she said it looked great to her...

I don't get it...I don't even like big boobs but think she looks like she's a lot of fun to play. I like this a lot better than the knight. Can't wait to see more. The girlfriend also thought that her game play looks fun.

Here you go. This is how "others" are experiencing these things.

The vast majority of the "Sorceress's design is sexualizing women" arguments are coming from, shock, men. Why is this, do you think? I guess you could argue that they're speaking on behalf of all the women that are not on NeoGAF, but that would be pretty presumptuous of you. Whereas the women who are actually on NeogGAF do not have a huge a problem with Dragon's Crown, and are able to appreciate its artistic merits without reading so heavily into Kamitani's supposed "agenda".

As far as this thread's concerned, it's just the guys doing this.

Now, Jason says he's received numerous emails from female readers agreeing with his standpoint. I have no doubt he's being honest, but I'm not sure if he's mentioning the opposing viewpoints as well.

According to this logic, if I claim a game has bad sexist writing then I am calling for censorship? Why is it different for designs?

Maybe you don't understand but there's a fundamental difference between criticism and censorship. No one is calling for the game to be cancelled or pulled off the shelf or even protesting or campaigning against the game. We are criticising it.

Criticism without proposing any sort of solution is just noise. If you actually care about the problem, then propose some sort of solution or method of mitigation. If you're going to shift the responsibility to others entirely, then you're just wasting everyone's time.

"This is bad."
"What should be done about it?"
"I dunno but it's bad, you figure it out."

This is what your stance effectively reduces to.

 

[Amneisac]

My sister is pumped to play the Sorceress, and my wife wants to play the Elf. I previously thought they both wanted to play the Elf, but then my sister told me that she only tried to call dibs on the Elf because she thought I would pick the Sorceress before she got to it - haha. I'm still up in the air about what I'll play. Probably the Sorceress, Wizard, or Dwarf, since I lean toward those styles.

Obviously she thought you were going to pick the Sorceress first because you're a straight male aged 18-30, right? So you're just reinforcing his point!

Edit: (I'm being a little sarcastic here)

 

[Tummi Gummi]

The problem is that these claims are never actually true. Just because Suda51 games have made fun of cutesy moeblob anime in the past does not mean that EVERY INSTANCE OF AUDIENCE-PLEASING SEXUALIZATION in his games is going to be some kind of satirical commentary.

Actually, what is worth nothing is that the Bizarre Jelly designs were done by a guy who normally draws that kind of stuff without a hint of irony. So it doesn't even seem that mean-spirited - more "parody" than "satire" (and that's another pet peeve of mine - people don't know the difference between the two anymore).

Hideki Kamiya has not said anything about Bayonetta being 'satire' either. On the contrary, he's said that Bayonetta contains a little of what all the main staff members consider earnestly attractive in women.

It's not even a matter of whether it's true or not. Even if Bayonetta and Juliet were specifically constructed from the very beginning as satirical constructs, the fact of the matter is that large number of people are attracted to these characters and were influenced in their purchasing decisions by T&A. Which is 100% fine with me. What's sad is people holding them up to DoA or something and saying "this clever parody of big titted beauties is ok but this sad, teenage sex fantasy is not". I just have no sympathy whatsoever for the "this is acceptable because it's more artistically valid" crowd.

 

[Lain]

I'd just like to soapbox for a second and say that, personally, I think the people who claim that all fanservice in games that they like is actually 'satire' and 'making fun of sexism' are doing way more harm than jschreier.

People saying this about Lollipop Chainsaw are some of the worst offenders. They still make this claim, even after James Gunn has SPECIFICALLY GONE AGAINST THIS IN AN INTERVIEW. His stance was basically "yes, the protagonist's hyper-idealized, sexual look is wish-fulfillment - but, so what? A little bit of that is fine".

Art is always subjective and in the eye of the beholder or we wouldn't have stuff like the famous Artist's shit. For someone that's art, for someone else it's just canned shit. Same as the fanservice in some games or the sexism in this one. Some see sexism in Dragon's Crown, I only see caricatures of the usual class stereotypes.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

Hmm. I see you point, I wasn't trying to convey the notion that he should stop voicing his opinion. But I do think should accept that Katamani is entitled to express his creativity however he chooses to do so and should not suggest that he change his methods to better suit anyone.

The statement comes off as 'oh, he has the right to make such games. They are harming our medium and making women uncomfortable, but if you want to keep doing it, be my guest".

Basically, "well I don't really mean *that* but, well, actually I do in fact mean exactly that".

It doesn't seem like he is advocating censorship on a grand scale ("THESE GAMES SHOULD BE OUTLAWED") because that would be insane, but >self-censorship<.

Do you really think this art style appeals ONLY to straight males aged 12 - 30? Can people not be calm and mature, or perhaps not even straight males, and still enjoy this art? I'm not saying I personally enjoy this exaggerated style, but I think you're making some sweeping generalizations and assumptions by saying that only a certain segment can enjoy this art.

I can post porn of this game on Tumblr and watch the likes/reblogs from girls roll in if that's a point that really must be made ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Amneisac]

I did a search in this thread for "female", "girlfriend", and "woman" and I've collated the results.







Here you go. This is how "others" are experiencing these things.

The vast majority of the "Sorceress's design is sexualizing women" arguments are coming from, shock, men. Why is this, do you think? I guess you could argue that they're speaking on behalf of all the women that are not on NeoGAF, but that would be pretty presumptuous of you. Even then, there seem to be examples of women who do not have a huge a problem with Dragon's Crown, and are able to appreciate it's artistic merits without reading so heavily into Kamitani's supposed "agenda".

As far as this thread's concerned, it's just the guys doing this.

Now, Jason says he's received numerous emails from female readers agreeing with his standpoint. I have no doubt he's being honest, but I'm not sure if he's mentioning the opposing viewpoints as well.

Thank you for compiling these, but let's be honest here - the 'vast majority' of men who are objecting to this are because the vast majority of people who will ever know this game exists are men.

Edit: As for him mentioning the opposing viewpoints as well, the "opposing" viewpoint in this case is the dominant viewpoint on GAF and the industry, so when the whole point of his article was to be a counter point to that, why should he mention the other side?

 

[Karsticles]

Obviously she thought you were going to pick the Sorceress first because you're a straight male aged 18-30, right? So you're just reinforcing his point!

I'm a straight, 28 year old male! Plus my sister knows I like big boobs.

Edit: I figured you were just poking fun, since you would have to be pretty obtuse to actually arrive at the conclusion you laid put. Plus exclamation marks on the internet have become an unofficial method of conveying sarcasm.

 

[Moral Panic]

Criticism without proposing any sort of solution is just noise. If you actually care about the problem, then propose some sort of solution or mitigation. If you're going to shift the responsibility to others entirely, then you're just wasting everyone's time.

"This is bad."
"What should be done about it?"
"I dunno but it's bad, you figure it out."

This is what your stance effectively reduces to.

That's absolute nonsense. Rogert Ebert didn't make his name by coming up with solutions to movies, he made criticisms. He didn't go to the director and tell him how he should've shot the scene, he criticised how he did shoot the film.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I can post porn of this game on Tumblr and watch the likes/reblogs from girls roll in if that's a point that really must be made ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

I just don't understand why people have taken this game as the one to pick on for featuring characters with huge tits. I also think it's really disingenuous for guys to be out there front and center claiming they are offended by these designs. Even if they are, why should anyone care? Just because they have a soapbox on a popular website from which to shout to their followers? Everyone is going to be offended by something. Them telling people that they *should* be offended by this just comes off as annoying.

 

[Amneisac]

I just don't understand why people have taken this game as the one to pick on for featuring characters with huge tits. I also think it's really disingenuous for guys to be out there front and center claiming they are offended by these designs. Even if they are, why should anyone care? Just because they have a soapbox on a popular website from which to shout to their followers? Everyone is going to be offended by something. Them telling people that they *should* be offended by this just comes off as annoying.

You sound almost.... offended?

 

[Haly]

Thank you for compiling these, but let's be honest here - the 'vast majority' of men who are objecting to this are because the vast majority of people who will ever know this game exists are men.

This line of thought is dangerous, because you run the risk of marginalizing opinions from those who are in the best position to critique this, as I've said here.

It's kind of a sad irony that because there's so few female gamers (discounting social stuff), it's easy for opposing viewpoints like this to get drowned out by all the noise from the "white knights".

Edit: As for him mentioning the opposing viewpoints as well, the "opposing" viewpoint in this case is the dominant viewpoint on GAF and the industry, so when the whole point of his article was to be a counter point to that, why should he mention the other side?

Usually, "journalists" are expected to maintain some sort of veneer of objectivity. If he has evidence of one side's support and another side's, but only presents one in order to bolster his argument, this is no longer reporting, but propaganda.

 

[Amneisac]

This line of thought is dangerous, because you run the risk of marginalizing opinions from those who are in the best position to critique this, as I've said here.



Usually, "journalists" are expected to maintain some sort of veneer of objectivity. If he has evidence of one side's support and another side's, but only presents one in order to bolster his argument, this is no longer reporting, but propaganda.

It's actually editorializing, not propaganda, but I suspect you knew that and you're just being a little bit sensationalist.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

I just don't understand why people have taken this game as the one to pick on for featuring characters with huge tits. I also think it's really disingenuous for guys to be out there front and center claiming they are offended by these designs. Even if they are, why should anyone care? Just because they have a soapbox on a popular website from which to shout to their followers? Everyone is going to be offended by something. Them telling people that they *should* be offended by this just comes off as annoying.

Because this game is very overt about it.

Funnily enough, the fact that EVERYONE is so wacky and exaggerated actually justifies it far more than many other instances of sexualization that actually break the atmosphere of a game (like what I mentioned earlier, "bikini armor only for girls, real armor for guys"). But because it's so overt, the instant game journalist reaction is to think of it as a better target.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

You sound almost.... offended?

Annoyed for sure. I definitely think there is a conversation to be had about misogyny in game culture and the games industry. However, I think shit like this is just jumping on that bandwagon in a desperate attempt to get hits and isn't sincere in the slightest. Stuff like this is just going to make people sick and tired of seeing male games journalists take up arms in defense of women, and will cause people to roll their eyes by the time something actually worth discussing comes up.

 

[Delusibeta]

I don't want him to censor himself. I want him to ask himself why he's drawing men and women with ridiculous proportions that seem designed to appeal to teenage boys, and I want him to think about how that can be harmful.

Contradiction!

 

[Akainu]

And I will keep on doing so. I like my characters to be visually appealing. She is not, nor are the male characters visually appealing. I want cute girls doing cute things, and she is neither cute nor doing anything.

Fighting hordes of monster is doing nothing?

 

[Morokh]

Honestly i think it would be better if artists like Kamitami paid no attention to people like you at all, and just kept on doing what they do best.

This !

The fear of pretty much everything that thread is about is exactly one of the reasons why the design in video games (and other mediums) is so streamlined these days.

 

[7Th]

Hideki Kamiya has not said anything about Bayonetta being 'satire' either. On the contrary, he's said that Bayonetta contains a little of what all the main staff members consider earnestly attractive in women.

cute babes

 

[Amneisac]

Annoyed for sure. I definitely think there is a conversation to be had about misogyny in game culture and the games industry. However, I think shit like this is just jumping on that bandwagon in a desperate attempt to get hits and isn't sincere in the slightest. Stuff like this is just going to get people sick and tired of seeing white dudes take up arms in defense of women and will just make people roll their eyes by the time something actually worth discussing comes up.

You certainly don't have to take part in the conversation. Believe me, there are plenty of organizations in this world dedicated to being 'offended' over lots of things. I love animals, but I don't support PETA (as an example). It's gradient for sure, but that doesn't mean this isn't a valid example. Obviously if people are offended by this, or think it's over the top or however you want to say it, they're entitled to say so.

 

[Haly]

That's absolute nonsense. Rogert Ebert didn't make his name by coming up with solutions to movies, he made criticisms. He didn't go to the director and tell him how he should've shot the scene, he criticised how he did shoot the film.

Ebert is a critic of art. He evaluates movies from the perspective of movie making. You, Schreier, and most others are not criticizing Dragon's Crown's artistic merits, something none of you are qualified to do. Only the writer of Art-Eater has displayed any sort of knowledge of the motifs and history of art necessary to really understand a work like Dragon's Crown.

Rather, you're holding it up as one of the contributing factors of sexism in the gaming industry, a real and actual problem. Fine, I agree it's a problem, and I think it should be remedied. So, my question to you is, how do we do it? What is expected of Kamitani here?

 

[Data West]

My female friends favorite character on Mad Men is, far and away, Joan. Have they been brainwashed into that, just as men were brainwashed into liking Rambo?

 

[Gutsy Frog]

cute babes

Hey did you see this comment I left:

It was mostly pointing and laughing. I understood, the American cover was awful compared to the original:

The 'pointing and laughing' was because the game is 'stupid embarrassing perverted anime bullshit', not because the girl on the US cover had a pretty generic Queen's Blade-like design. Lady Zozo was far less generic and people reacted the same way to her. A lack of originality clearly isn't the problem here, people who believe in some kind of 'nerd hierarchy' just want an excuse to go 'heh get a life you weeaboos' over silly anime things.

Cuz I'm not entirely sure what you meant by that, really. But certainly if someone found that design ridiculous in a bad way then they're gonna find a lot of the other designs just as ridiculous (and I can confirm that they do as I have seen it).

 

[Akainu]

I will admit it.

I think the male art style is almost as bad as Grappler Baki's art style.



And that isn't even the worst.

Get out.

 

[Dresden]

I apologize that I don't have time to address every post in this thread, but I'll try to answer this. I think it's important for Kamitani and any other artists who draw similarly juvenile characters to consider the effect of their designs on men, on women, and on gaming culture as a whole. If even one woman feels ostracized or uncomfortable because of art like this - and, judging by the e-mails and messages I've gotten in the past day, quite a few women do feel that way - it's worth talking and thinking about.

I don't want him to censor himself. I want him to ask himself why he's drawing men and women with ridiculous proportions that seem designed to appeal to teenage boys, and I want him to think about how that can be harmful. That's the point of criticism: to get people thinking, and talking, and learning.

Like I've been saying all along, Dragon's Crown is hardly the only offender, and it's certainly not the most blatant example of sexist content in games. But it is one example, and for various reasons, it's the one we're discussing. Hopefully good things can come out of this.

Only good thing I can see coming out of this is people seeing stuff like this for what it is--patronizing attempts at gender awareness from those in positions of privilege.

 

[pantsmith]

I think there is juvenile, and then there is stylized. Dragon's Crown may operate on both ends of that spectrum (for some viewers), but it definitely leans heavily toward stylized.

Is this a discussion to have? Yes. Should the artist have avoided tasteless jokes? Yes. Is Dragon's crown the game we should be having this discussion about? I do not believe so.

My opinion, which I say as an artist and as someone who would like to have video games taken as seriously as "high" art one day, is that the art style of Dragon's Crown is varied enough, and of such a craftsmanship (in what it borrows from, what it seeks to do, and what it accomplishes), that I am totally okay with the sorceresses design in the context of the game's overall aesthetic.

If all of the women of Dragon's Crown looked like her I think it might be a bigger "issue", but all of the characters throughout the game, male and female, look completely different, and its sad that this fact seems lost to the overall discussion.

Ah, yes, it has already been said better than I could have put it:

It&#8217;s very weird to pull up a story about a game with frankly visionary art and hear why it shouldn&#8217;t exist, or to hear what I supposedly fantasize about, or what kind of power I supposedly revere, and any attempt to defend oneself from these psychotic projections or to assert that creators may create is evidence of a dark seed sprouting in the heart. It&#8217;s an incredible state of affairs. They&#8217;re not censors, though - oh, no no. You&#8217;ll understand it eventually; what you need to do is censor yourself.

 

[7Th]

Cuz I'm not entirely sure what you meant by that, really. But certainly if someone found that design ridiculous in a bad way then they're gonna find a lot of the other designs just as ridiculous (and I can confirm that they do as I have seen it).

I honestly just wanted an excuse to complain about the American cover; I know that anything anime-like or cutesy gets made fun of in the mainstream vidya community.

 

[Akainu]

I apologize that I don't have time to address every post in this thread, but I'll try to answer this. I think it's important for Kamitani and any other artists who draw similarly juvenile characters to consider the effect of their designs on men, on women, and on gaming culture as a whole. If even one woman feels ostracized or uncomfortable because of art like this - and, judging by the e-mails and messages I've gotten in the past day, quite a few women do feel that way - it's worth talking and thinking about.

I don't want him to censor himself. I want him to ask himself why he's drawing men and women with ridiculous proportions that seem designed to appeal to teenage boys, and I want him to think about how that can be harmful. That's the point of criticism: to get people thinking, and talking, and learning.

Like I've been saying all along, Dragon's Crown is hardly the only offender, and it's certainly not the most blatant example of sexist content in games. But it is one example, and for various reasons, it's the one we're discussing. Hopefully good things can come out of this.

Yes you do.

 

[Karsticles]

My female friends favorite character on Mad Men is, far and away, Joan. Have they been brainwashed into that, just as men were brainwashed into liking Rambo?

Only if it's offensive.

 

[Mollymauk]

Looking forward to the cosplay.

 

[LiK]

Looking forward to the cosplay.

Google

 

[duckroll]

I feel there's a fallacy in trying to condemn an art style that doesn't appeal to oneself by twisting the argument into something about a greater evil. It's somewhat disingenuous and honestly insulting to the actual social issue being used to champion what is ultimately an issue of taste.

I don't fancy the Dragon's Crown designs myself. I find them exaggerated, silly, and somewhat ugly. I definitely prefer the designs in Grim Grimoire and Odin Sphere. But that's a personal opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong with having childish designs in games, which are childish things to begin with. Trying to argue that it is "embarrassing" to play a game which looks a certain way or that it is "harmful" for the industry tells me two things about the person arguing it. One is that the person is probably too self-conscious or insecure about his or her hobby, and another is that the person thinks the game is more important than it really is.

Criticism should be sincere and transparent to be respected and acknowledged. It is fine to criticize something for what it is. If you think it's ugly, that's a valid opinion. If there are enough people who agree, perhaps an artist will consider that his style is not particularly popular. If such a thing is important to the artist, that might trigger change. Trying to suggest that the art itself is harmful to society or something which should be actively discouraged is much more dangerous criticism, and should be considered very carefully before being applied. Just because a person doesn't like something doesn't make it wrong.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

Ebert is a critic of art. He evaluates movies from the perspective of movie making. You, Schreier, and most others are not criticizing Dragon's Crown's artistic merits, something none of you are qualified to do. Only the writer of Art-Eater has displayed any sort of knowledge towards the motifs and history of art necessary to really understand and critique a work like Dragon's Crown.

Rather, you're holding it up as one of the contributing factors of sexism in the gaming industry, a real and actual problem. Fine, I agree it's a problem, and I think it should be remedied. So, my question to you is, how do we do it? What is expected of Kamitani here?

One silly thing people say in response to this is, 'you don't need to be a cook to tell that food tastes like shit'.

And... no, you don't. But when it comes to worthwhile artistic criticism, some knowledge of the craft and its history is required. I don't agree with everything Ebert says (and no I do not even mean the video games as art nonsense I DO NOT CARE AT ALL) but he is a good critic because he is actually knowledgeable and understands the medium he's covering.

On the other hand... most games journalists and professional reviewers don't even understand gameplay mechanics much more than the typical player, and those constitute the core of their medium.