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[Remachinate]

You're kind of describing the difference between industry and art. Yes the artist creates what they freely envision while the industry creates what people want/expect. Reason why I think something like Call of Duty or Battlefield should be criticisized for their lack of female soldiers when they already exist in the real world. They are large, industrial franchises, they are the mass produced examples of what people want/expect.

That was basically my point in response to Corto--art is held to a different standard depending on its context within society.

Dragon's Crown is a small group creating a unique vision. It's up to society to decide if it merits becoming an institution.

Unique vision or no, Vanillaware is part of the industry of commercial video games. They don't really get to displace themselves and win that freedom of artistic expression while also marketing the game through the usual channels.

Again, lack of female protagonists, refusal of publishers to allow female leads, female soldiers in modern military games, the industry's treatment of it's female professionals. Going after any sexuality in games is just a small step away from playing morality police.

Those are all relevant issues too. But I'm not saying that no sexuality of any kind belongs in games. There's ways to make it relevant or substantial to the experience. But the clamor over Dragon's Dogma is that its use of sexuality is gratuitous, and without value beyond titillation. Just because it's an homage to an established genre of illustration doesn't alone give the art style merit.

In the gaming industry workplaces. In the news outlets, in the video games studios and in the publishers companies. Let the women be in decision making positions and let them shape the industry. Discussing big juggling boobs is just dancing around the issue.

Isn't it fair to say the latter is a symptom of the issues in the former, one that we can point to in order to diagnose the problem?

 

[LiK]

https://twitter.com/cwgabriel/status/327132496749813760

 

[FLEABttn]

Stuff like this is just going to make people sick and tired of seeing male games journalists take up arms in defense of women, and will cause people to roll their eyes by the time something actually worth discussing comes up.

Already there man.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

They're definitely sexy, them not being sexy isn't exactly what I meant. I was mostly trying to draw contrast between her art and the usual sexy girls found in mainstream videogames.

Yeah, I agree. I was particularly annoyed with the Solange redraws that people made, that basically just gave her generic realistic armor, radically changed her visual characterization and drew her worse while basically saying "see Nishimura, THIS is how you do it

".

The funny part is that CoP DOES have variety. If someone don't like Solange's Queen's Blade-esque design then they can just pick another character.

 

[Kai Dracon]

You know what this reminds me of? When Kotaku decided to grab some random tweet from Kamiya, and blow it up as "OMG JAPANEZY DEVS NO UNDERSTAND STEAM OR PC DUHHH!" and then Kamiya tells the writer to go fuck off and eat shit. The original article was stupid. The response from the developer is stupid. And Kotaku gets another gazillion hits over the week because of fanboys on every side of the fence love to comment on this crap and keep visiting the article(s).

I wonder which is more "harmful" to the industry. Kamitani drawing a sorceress with her huge boobs hanging out, or shitty blog sites which stir up shit under the guise of moral criticism pretending it is journalism. Food for thought.

The art is out there and people are free to make of it what they will. It will always be there, and will have the chance to generate interesting discussion in the future.

The shitstorm of the moment, aka "let's shame Kamitani into making different art" has at least the potential (however unlikely in this case) to cause an artist to self-censor and stop making content. Thus removing the content from discussion, and perhaps more crucially, every individual's decision on whether to appreciate it or not.

So, on the whole, I would say the "art shaming" is pretty much the worse by a fair margin. It doesn't really accomplish anything but potentially remove content from circulation and make some people feel as if they've made a difference by censoring something.

 

[Akainu]

I don't think my dislike for the designs are because they're "generic" per se. I just don't like how exaggerated all the proportions are because it looks silly - this applies to both male and female designs, and also how the proportions are emphasized as the main part of the design. It's like a silly Jim Lee comic cover. I felt the character designs in the previous games did a better job of using the overall design of the characters to make up for the weak anatomy which was also present. Human characters in particular always looked "off" in his artwork, but at least they looked better when there are nice costumes defining the characters instead.

Alright so because the npc designs got switched for main character designs for this game? Sorry if this seems annoying.

Fighter is Odin's type, Sorceress-Odette, Dwarf-Brigan(?) but smaller, Amazon-Raijin slimmed down.

 

[nailbombxx]

The Sorceress and Amazon are relatively tame compared to a lot of other Japanese media. The West is just so confused when it comes to what is acceptable and what is not.

 

[duckroll]

Alright so because the npc designs got switched for main character designs for this game? Sorry I this seems annoying.

Yes, when you put it that way, I agree. At least in the previous games, the ridiculous stuff were enemies and NPCs. This time they're front and center as the playable characters.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Unique vision or no, Vanillaware is part of the industry of commercial video games. They don't really get to displace themselves and win that freedom of artistic expression while also marketing the game through the usual channels.

Do musicians and film makers also lose the freedom of artistic impression because their chosen medium is an institutional one?

Those are all relevant issues too. But I'm not saying that no sexuality of any kind belongs in games. There's ways to make it relevant or substantial to the experience. But the clamor over Dragon's Dogma is that its use of sexuality is gratuitous, and without value beyond titillation. Just because it's an homage to an established genre of illustration doesn't alone give the art style merit.

You're arguing over a matter of taste. I feel it does have value and it's the gratuitity that makes it so valuable. See this difference of opinion is perfectly fine in art, but you're implying societal harm, thats taking it to far. If the women were being treated as objects to be rescued with no agency or were unable to fight alongside the men or where purposely made weaker than the men, then the problem would be with the substance and not the actual art.

A good example of a sexist game would be something like Risen. The art is pretty boring compared to something like Dragon's Crown, but the game only allows you to play a male character and women are treated as either mothers or whores through out the game. The substance of Risen is objectionable.

 

[nailbombxx]

Do musicians and film makers also lose the freedom of artistic impression because their chosen medium is an institutional one?
.

Yes, a lot of the time, if they are doing it to make a profit. In Kamitani and VanillaWare's case, they are doing this because they want to.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

Every time I see this thread bumped I get excited thinking the Amazon trailer has been released. Then I get sad.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Today's Penny Arcade

Pennyarcade reminds us once again that they have difficulty with both humor and misplaced penises.

 

[Finalow]

I want to play this now.

 

[Remachinate]

Do musicians and film makers also lose the freedom of artistic impression because their chosen medium is an institutional one?

Are we talking explicit rap music and slasher flicks or performance art and independent films? Because again, audience and context counts.

You're arguing over a matter of taste. I feel it does have value and it's the gratuitity that makes it so valuable. See this difference of opinion is perfectly fine in art, but you're implying societal harm, thats taking it to far. If the women were being treated as objects to be rescued with no agency or were unable to fight alongside the men or where purposely made weaker than the men, then the problem would be with the substance and not the actual art.

I'll admit it's a difference of opinion. I don't have substantive evidence ready to back up that exaggerated and sexual depictions of women presented matter-of-factly impact an individual's perspective of women, but I do believe it to be true. I'm willing to allow for the possibility I'm wrong though.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Penny Arcade giving the game some free publicity? awesome

 

[Gutsy Frog]

I like how both of the main Penny Arcade guys are going against what Kuchera said on the site and on Twitter. It's a good thing when a super-mainstream website isn't an echo chamber and the contributors have actual opinions.

Kuchera's entire argumentation basically revolved around "this game looks like generic shit because it utilizes archetypes (and also it is sexist)". Meanwhile Holkins and Krahulik understand that technical and stylistic execution can matter far more than the archetypes and tropes at the base of your work.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Are we talking explicit rap music and slasher flicks or performance art and independent films? Because again, audience and context counts.

Okay before I write out a response, please explain what you're asking. Rap music and slasher flicks as opposed to performance art and indie film, what do you mean by this.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Generic is the last word I'd used to describe Vanillaware/Kamitani art. When you look at it, you immediately know it's his.

Rap music and slasher flicks as opposed to performance art and indie film, what do you mean by this.

Uh oh.

 

[Remachinate]

Okay before I write out a response, please explain what you're asking. Rap music and slasher flicks as opposed to performance art and indie film, what do you mean by this.

I'm trying to draw a distinction between commercial media whose primary purpose is entertainment for a general audience for a profit and artistic media whose primary purpose is free expression and exploration of ideas. I think it's reasonable to say that there are different societal expectations for each category.

 

[spandexmonkey]

I'm trying to draw a distinction between commercial media whose primary purpose is entertainment for a general audience for a profit and artistic media whose primary purpose is free expression and exploration of ideas. I think it's reasonable to say that there are different expectations for each category.

So rap music is not there for free expression and/or the exploration of ideas?

Or does the use of expletives negate rap's artistic expression?

 

[Pyrrhus]

You can see where somebody might take exception to classifying rap in its entirety as low art, though, right?

 

[nailbombxx]

You can see where somebody might take exception to classifying rap in its entirety as low art, though, right?

Ignorance?

 

[Wynnebeck]

I'm trying to draw a distinction between commercial media whose primary purpose is entertainment for a general audience for a profit and artistic media whose primary purpose is free expression and exploration of ideas. I think it's reasonable to say that there are different societal expectations for each category.

Joke post?

 

[Pyrrhus]

Ignorance?

Yeah, that's kind of where I was going.

 

[Remachinate]

So rap music is not there for free expression and/or the exploration of ideas?

Or does the use of expletives negate rap's artistic expression?

Rappers who release their albums commercially, like any other pop musician, have their artistic freedom limited by what society deems acceptable.

You can see where somebody might take exception to classifying rap in its entirety as low art, though, right?

Definitely, and I didn't mean to suggest the genre of music as a whole is incapable of artistic expression. It was poorly used as part of a blanket statement on pop music.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Rappers who release their albums commercially, like any other pop musician, have their artistic freedom limited by what society deems acceptable."


That is completely false.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

Well, not 'society' as a whole. But generally, if you want to make a profit off of a piece of art, you need to find an audience that will want to purchase your work. That audience can be niche, it can be mainstream, or something in-between.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Well, not 'society' as a whole. But generally, if you want to make a profit off of a piece of art, you need to find an audience that will want to purchase your work. That audience can be niche, it can be mainstream, or something in-between.

I think they've clearly got an audience. That's kind of a different argument than "they have a moral ideal to uphold and progress," anyway.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Rappers who release their albums commercially, like any other pop musician, have their artistic freedom limited by what society deems acceptable.

I think all they really have limited by what society deems acceptable is their sales potential. I'm pretty sure I could commercially self publish 15 minutes of fart sounds in the next hour if I really wanted to.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

I think all they really have limited by what society deems acceptable is their sales potential. I'm pretty sure I could commercially self publish 15 minutes of fart sounds in the next hour if I really wanted to.

15 minutes? amateur.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Well, not 'society' as a whole. But generally, if you want to make a profit off of a piece of art, you need to find an audience that will want to purchase your work. That audience can be niche, it can be mainstream, or something in-between.

Yeah thats where I think Remachinate has things backwards. It's the artist who chooses the audience when they create their work and not vice versa. Something like World of Warcraft is aimed at trying to capture everyone, so Blizzard chooses to shape it's game that way.

 

[nailbombxx]

I think all they really have limited by what society deems acceptable is their sales potential. I'm pretty sure I could commercially self publish 15 minutes of fart sounds in the next hour if I really wanted to.

Would be better than most pop music.

 

[Remachinate]

Well, not 'society' as a whole. But generally, if you want to make a profit off of a piece of art, you need to find an audience that will want to purchase your work. That audience can be niche, it can be mainstream, or something in-between.

I think all they really have limited by what society deems acceptable is their sales potential. I'm pretty sure I could commercially self publish 15 minutes of fart sounds in the next hour if I really wanted to.

That's pretty much what I'm getting at. If you're creating a work of media for money, as opposed to for expression, your product is subject to a society of consumers and what they demand in exchange for their money. To bring this back to the thread topic, it's up to us consumers to demand socially responsible media *if that's what we value*.

It's the artist who chooses the audience when they create their work and not vice versa.

I agree with you, so long as we're talking about an artist creating art for expression, not an artist creating a product for money.

 

[Lime]

Tell me exactly why people think that this specific character design is exempt from criticism for its overtly sexual objectification in a medium and culture known for being systemically and in some cases directly sexist and exclusionary against women?

 

[Bomber Bob]

pa humor sucs money balls

 

[spandexmonkey]

That's pretty much what I'm getting at. If you're creating a work of media for money, as opposed to for expression, your product is subject to a society of consumers and what they demand in exchange for their money. To bring this back to the thread topic, it's up to us consumers to demand socially responsible media *if that's what we value*.

Again, I disagree. The reason something like World of Warcraft has to keep itself so vanilla is because it is using a wide net to capture a large audience. Tastes will vary wildly, it's not a matter of demanding social responsibility. Vanillaware is aiming at a more niche audience who likely are eager to pay them for their vision.

Tell me exactly why people think that this specific character design is exempt from criticism for its overtly sexual objectification in a medium and culture known for being systemically and in some cases directly sexist and exclusionary against women?

First she's not free from criticism, if you don't like her aesthetics thats cool, definitely not for everyone. But the game itself isn't sexist because the character has agency, is playable and equally capable as her male counter parts. Your dislike of sexualization is a matter of taste, you're mixing aesthetics with actual substance. If the women were portrayed as helpless or weaker or in stark contrast to the men I'd agree (although in the latter I'd prefer the men be stripped down than the women covered up), but thats just not the case with this.

 

[Lime]

I feel there's a fallacy in trying to condemn an art style that doesn't appeal to oneself by twisting the argument into something about a greater evil. It's somewhat disingenuous and honestly insulting to the actual social issue being used to champion what is ultimately an issue of taste.

I don't fancy the Dragon's Crown designs myself. I find them exaggerated, silly, and somewhat ugly. I definitely prefer the designs in Grim Grimoire and Odin Sphere. But that's a personal opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong with having childish designs in games, which are childish things to begin with. Trying to argue that it is "embarrassing" to play a game which looks a certain way or that it is "harmful" for the industry tells me two things about the person arguing it. One is that the person is probably too self-conscious or insecure about his or her hobby, and another is that the person thinks the game is more important than it really is.

Criticism should be sincere and transparent to be respected and acknowledged. It is fine to criticize something for what it is. If you think it's ugly, that's a valid opinion. If there are enough people who agree, perhaps an artist will consider that his style is not particularly popular. If such a thing is important to the artist, that might trigger change. Trying to suggest that the art itself is harmful to society or something which should be actively discouraged is much more dangerous criticism, and should be considered very carefully before being applied. Just because a person doesn't like something doesn't make it wrong.

Given the many instances of systemic and direct sexism in the cultural context and history of the video games medium, the character design is a symptom of a larger problem. Of course it's going to be criticized for being harmful.

1. Video games suffer from exclusionary representation of women and systemic sexism (consumer and industry)
2. Any contribution to this continuous exclusion and/or marginalization of women continues the status quo
3. The status quo is harmful (this is a fact, as evidenced by qualitative interviews and quantitative data)
4. Therefore, any contribution to maintaining the status quo should be criticized.
5. The Sorceress design is a contribution

You can argue that this is a niche title that is meant to be pandering to a certain type of people who adores scantily clad female characters with giant tits, but that doesn't excuse the design from being criticized for what it is, what it represents, and what it does.

 

[Odrion]

Penny Arcade is the gamer equivalent of Garfield.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Given the many instances of systemic and direct sexism in the cultural context and history of the video games medium, the character design is a symptom of a larger problem. Of course it's going to be criticized for being harmful.

1. Video games suffer from exclusionary representation of women and systemic sexism (consumer and industry)
2. Any contribution to this continuous exclusion and/or marginalization of women continues the status quo
3. The status quo is harmful (this is a fact, as evidenced by qualitative interviews and quantitative data)
4. Therefore, any contribution to maintaining the status quo should be criticized.
5. The Sorceress design is a contribution

You can argue that this is a niche title that is meant to be pandering to a certain type of people who adores scantily clad female characters with giant tits, but that doesn't excuse the design from being criticized for what it is, what it represents, and what it does.

I want to see the quantative data that a strong, capable woman in skimpy clothes (consistant with the world she's apart of) does equal harm as say Princess Peach.

 

[Lime]

Actually, since some people become so personally offended and defensive whenever someone use the descriptor 'sexist' of an object, I'm going to use the descriptor 'dumb' instead. Hopefully people won't post knee-jerk reactions:

This is dumb.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Penny Arcade is the gamer equivalent of Garfield.

No way, Garfield used to be funny.

 

[nailbombxx]

Tell me exactly why people think that this specific character design is exempt from criticism for its overtly sexual objectification in a medium and culture known for being systemically and in some cases directly sexist and exclusionary against women?

Its not free from criticism. Nothing is. People who criticize it are not free from criticism either. People are just voicing their opinions.

In my opinion, there is nothing sexist about the character. It would be a bit sexist if EVERY female character looked like the Sorceress, but that's not the case.

There are much more oppressing things to women in society than this.

 

[Warm Machine]

It is about as dumb as the cover and contents of Lowrider magazine or Sexy Stangs. I doubt if Dragons Crown is intended or can be treated as a barometer of the cultural relevance and reflection of video games because I certainly don't hold Lowrider up as the cultural zeitgeist of print.

 

[Mr.Monitor]

This is dumb.

Kay. Don't buy the game.

 

[sechsterangriff]

Can't we all agree that there are segments of both male and female populations that enjoy sexualization of characters to a certain extent and there's nothing inherently bad about that?
And maybe that a good part of the problem largely resides in that the balance is mostly leaning to catering to men?

No? no...?

Ok....

The way a game's female characters are written, how they fit into the story and gameplay and how empowered they are, says much more about the creators' intent to create compelling female characters (or lack of intent) than how the characters look.

This.

 

[radios shipping overview]

You're arguing over a matter of taste. I feel it does have value and it's the gratuitity that makes it so valuable. See this difference of opinion is perfectly fine in art, but you're implying societal harm, thats taking it to far. If the women were being treated as objects to be rescued with no agency or were unable to fight alongside the men or where purposely made weaker than the men, then the problem would be with the substance and not the actual art.

A good example of a sexist game would be something like Risen. The art is pretty boring compared to something like Dragon's Crown, but the game only allows you to play a male character and women are treated as either mothers or whores through out the game. The substance of Risen is objectionable.

THIS THIS THIS. The way a game's female characters are written, how they fit into the story and gameplay and how empowered they are, says much more about the creators' intent to create compelling female characters (or lack of intent) than how the characters look.

If the Sorceress was an incompetent cretin that only existed in the game for comic relief and to serve as a gameplay goal (i.e. needing to be rescued), she'd be much more offensive. As she is, she's a powerful, assertive character, and that's cool.

Of course, big boobs used in key marketing assets make for an easy controversy that any random schmoe can offer an opinion on.

 

[Lime]

I want to see the quantative data that a strong, capable woman in skimpy clothes (consistant with the world she's apart of) does equal harm as say Princess Peach.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49966935&postcount=5774

Kay. Don't buy the game.

Kay. My potential purchase of the game is completely irrelevant in this discussion. We are discussing. We are on a forum. We are not talking about whether or not we want to buy a product, but about how a design might be considered dumb given the cultural context of video games.

 

[Delusibeta]

I want Lime to produce source for his claims.

 

[KibblesBits]

Today's Penny Arcade

That is an awesome character design.

 

[nailbombxx]

This is dumb.

I know, that's totally unrealistic, there is no such thing as magic.