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[Kagey K]

Mark Cerny said in 2016 8TF were needed to achieve native 4K resolution. The PS5 surpasses that. If you don't mind I will trust his opinion more than wild speculation from Dusk Golem and you projecting personal wishes.

Mark Cerny: 8 TFlops Minimal Is Required To Render In Native 4K But This Is A Personal Estimate

According to Sony’s lead architect on the PS4 and PS4 Pro, Mark Cerny, at least 8 teraflops is needed to render in native 4K resolution.

wccftech.com

That’s fine, he didn’t mention what other bells and whistles they could add beyond 8, so let’s just go with that.

Im sure it’ll be fine.

 

[Kagey K]

A Sony breakdown isn't going to prove anything. What we need is a DF breakdown. Sony aren't going to give us a side by side comparison with XsX

DF is nice but a breakdown of the parts, would give us all the theoretical maximums based on the chips. It won’t show us what we are seeing now, but the best we can expect in the future.

Hence why I think they are afraid to show it.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Valhalla will be the first game.

 

[T-Cake]

The IO, (variable) clocks and maybe Geometry Engines (we don't really know too much yet) will keep those 36cu more saturated for longer periods than XSX, thus the operational flops will be closer than what you think.

Faster and more efficient.

Let's hope the devs are up to speed and choose to use all this stuff properly then.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Let's hope the devs are up to speed and choose to use all this stuff properly then.

Apparently the RE8 developers didn't get the instruction manuals.

 

[PresetError]

DF is nice but a breakdown of the parts, would give us all the theoretical maximums based on the chips. It won’t show us what we are seeing now, but the best we can expect in the future.

Hence why I think they are afraid to show it.

At this rate I don't think Digital Foundry will get their hands on the PS5 sooner than the rest of mortals.

 

[Kagey K]

At this rate I don't think Digital Foundry will get their hands on the PS5 sooner than the rest of mortals.

Whatever the truth will be out there in less then 2 days from launch, regardless of who gets one.

You can only hide for so long.

 

[mejin]

10TF can be achieved if they devs want it.

Xbox community have a strange habit of just spreading misinformation.

it is not just the community, but MS too with Spencer & Cia haha

 

[John254]

At this stage I'm willing to bet that the real world gap is smaller than this.

The IO, (variable) clocks and maybe Geometry Engines (we don't really know too much yet) will keep those 36cu more saturated for longer periods than XSX, thus the operational flops will be closer than what you think.

Faster and more efficient.

Jesus. This shit again?

I'm still waiting for one example from PS boys here, where one GPU with much less CU could magically compensate for it with fast clocks, since it is "faster and more efficient"

To this day, nobody showed me one evidence.

 

[GHG]

Yes this is known, has been since the spec sheets were unveiled.

When can we see some games running on it?

 

[Sony]

Hmm... Digital Foundry comparisons are going to be very interesting.
I still beleive that native 4K is a waste of resources to. 60FPS as well.
Give me 30FPS + Per object Motion blur + other bells as whistles at 1440p native and I'll be happy.
This 60fps/4K race is just as useless as the increasing resolutions on smartphone screens.

 

[Shodan09]

Both consoles will struggle at native 4k without some kind of scaling. But its been known for months that series X has the power advantage and it will obviously make a difference. To think otherwise is willful ignorance.

 

[Kokoloko85]

Well we know its xbox is stronger, but doubt 2TFPS will make the difference between struggling with 1080p 60fps and Xbox running it at 4k 60fps lol.

 

[T-Cake]

If there's one thing I'm discovering on my PC (which is not good for 4K gaming) is that as long as the HUD is 4K, so the on-screen text and UI elements are crisp and clear, then the base game with a nice pass of anti-aliasing can be as low as 1080p and I'd never notice it.

As a total 4K whore, I can't believe I'm saying it, but I would take a 1080p60 game with a 4K HUD and add as many physics/graphics/NPC effects as I could and I'd be happy.

 

[Shodan09]

Jesus. This shit again?

I'm still waiting for one example from PS boys here, where one GPU with much less CU could magically compensate for it with fast clocks, since it is "faster and more efficient"

To this day, nobody showed me one evidence.

Thats because there isn't any evidence. Some people will have a very rude awakening once the multiplatform titles start coming out.

Expect the narrative to shift to "barely noticeable differences" which will be the exact same advantages PS4 has had over X1 this gen but they will suddenly not be as important.

 

[DinoD]

Not surprised if true.

Imo is more the case of smarter engineering from MS side. They managed to do a PS4 role reversal, just spending the design efforts to make a good practical performant console.

Sony has to bin the best gpu die to obtain that 2.23ghz variable clocks, they need beefier psu to power the high clocks, they needed a solid heat sink fan with irregular shape to fit the slim and tall console form factor, they have to custom make the 12 channel ssd, the Dual Sense gimmicky vibrations....it all adds up.

You can debate games, but hardware and network wise, MS has left Sony in the dust this round.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

2TF vs 0.5TF. If something needs 1TF more power than the PS5 has it doesn’t matter what the percentage difference is, just how much power there is.

lmao, so there was almost no difference between ps2 vs ps1 (as 0.006tf is almost no difference) ;d think again

 

[T-Cake]

Expect the narrative to shift to "barely noticeable differences" which will be the exact same advantages PS4 has had over X1 this gen but they will suddenly not be as important.

But they probably won't at higher resolutions. The PS4 v Xbone was akin to 1080p v 900p which is noticeable but when you get to 2160p v 1800p, only Digital Foundry will be able to tell us.

 

[pawel86ck]

Show me where Mark Cerny said they cannot have maximum of 10TF of GPU power if they lower the CPU clocks.

Cerny has only said he expect PS5 GPU to stay at close to 2.2GHz most of the time. Show me where Cerny has said PS5 GPU will stay at 2.2GHz all the time.

How much percentage drop in frequency do you expect PS5 to drop pawel? You seem like one of the more knowledgeable members. I would like to know

Unfortunatelly such speculations about PS5 GPU clock arnt allowed here. All I can say is, what Dusk Golem is saying doesn't surprise me.

 

[PlayVerso]

Thanks Dusk Golem for this great exclusive, the world needed to know this great question.

 

[PresetError]

Whatever the truth will be out there in less then 2 days from launch, regardless of who gets one.

You can only hide for so long.

I was implying their relation with Sony must not be going through the best of times.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

Unfortunatelly such speculations about PS5 GPU clock arnt allowed here. All I can say is, what Dusk Golem is saying doesn't surprise me.

What speculations? You watched the Road to PS5 surely. Which is why I think you're best suited to educate us.

 

[bitbydeath]

Doesn’t this captured on PS5 trailer debunk it?

 

[Michael Hawk]

In the other thread, he said PS5 struggled even in 1080p in current RE8 build due to engine or other constraints, but those will be easily fixed until release and it will run fine on both systems.

If you attack him, at least use informed arguments.

So if the 1080p constraints will be fixed by launch, what about the 4K constraints?

 

[DForce]

Cerny has only said he expect PS5 GPU to stay at close to 2.2GHz most of the time. Show me where Cerny has said PS5 GPU will stay at 2.2GHz all the time.

Because he said it will be based on workload.

Can't take his words out of context.

 

[Kagey K]

I was implying their relation with Sony must not be going through the best of times.

I got it, but implied it doesn’t mpatter who breaks it down, we will see the flaws.

I guess I was a bit too subtle with the rib.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Doesn’t this captured on PS5 trailer debunk it?

Debunk what? That its struggling to maintain 30fps?

 

[Stilton Disco]

Thats because there isn't any evidence. Some people will have a very rude awakening once the multiplatform titles start coming out.

Expect the narrative to shift to "barely noticeable differences" which will be the exact same advantages PS4 has had over X1 this gen but they will suddenly not be as important.

There's no evidence because there are no real world equivalents for direct comparison until both systems are out.

We can compare the difference between two similar GPU's, which have generally shown a smaller performance gap than raw TF difference, but without the two systems bespoke dev tools, system software and custom hardware, it's an apples to oranges comparison.

Now I don't for one second think this will mean the raw power gap between the two won't exist, because no amount of efficiency is going to make up for the power difference we know of currently.

But that doesn't mean the more esoteric design of the PS5 can't deliver better games than the XSX can. It's a weird system in many ways, and we've already seen from Ratchet and Clank that it can deliver gameplay and visuals not possible on MS's platform.

Whether third parties will bother to use that tech is anyones guess though, and it may be that all PS5 multiplat releases are just flat out worse than XSX.

But if they do take advantage, and Playstation's dev tools are better and it's an easier platform to develop for (as we've heard several times this year in complete opposition to what this Dusk Golem is declaring), then it could also be an upset for those blindly following the raw numbers.

I doubt it, but I dont know. No one does.

Only time will tell.

 

[UnNamed]

10TF PS5 is the same nonsense as XBOX+Power of the Cloud.

 

[Kagey K]

There's no evidence because there are no real world equivalents for direct comparison until both systems are out.

We can compare the difference between two similar GPU's, which have generally shown a smaller performance gap than raw TF difference, but without the two systems bespoke dev tools, system software and custom hardware, it's an apples to oranges comparison.

Now I don't for one second think this will mean the raw power gap between the two won't exist, because no amount of efficiency is going to make up for the power difference we know of currently.

But that doesn't mean the more esoteric design of the PS5 can't deliver better games than the XSX can. It's a weird system in many ways, and we've already seen from Ratchet and Clank that it can deliver gameplay and visuals not possible on MS's platform.

Whether third parties will bother to use that tech is anyones guess though, and it may be that all PS5 multiplat releases are just flat out worse than XSX.

But if they do take advantage, and Playstation's dev tools are better and it's an easier platform to develop for (as we've heard several times this year in complete opposition to what this Dusk Golem is declaring), then it could also be an upset for those blindly following the raw numbers.

I doubt it, but I dont know. No one does.

Only time will tell.

Some people being reminded of some hard truths in this thread.

I like it.

 

[pawel86ck]

What speculations? You watched the Road to PS5 surely. Which is why I think you're best suited to educate us.

Yes I have watched the road to PS5 and I rememeber what Cerny has said about 2GHz fixed clock strategy and why he went with 2.2GHz variable strategy.

Like I have said I will keep my guesses to myself, because XSX vs PS5 multiplatform comparisons will do the talking for me. We are already hearing Orphan and resident evil 8 will run better on XSX.

 

[farmerboy]

Let's hope the devs are up to speed and choose to use all this stuff properly then.

 

[Night.Ninja]

How is the PS5 design more exotic than the Xbox series X?

 

[Mister Wolf]

How is the PS5 design more exotic than the Xbox series X?

The Series X uses the same Directx 12 API as PC making porting between the two easy.

 

[Kagey K]

How is the PS5 design more exotic than the Xbox series X?

SSD ssd ssd.

It’s not but they want to, pretend it is.

 

[martino]

in one way or another we have yet to see a public unit powered and running a game for both
when this happen we will begin to talk

and, in my case, i'm fine with fake 4k (i take framerate and better of everything else over it)

 

[Krisprolls]

"Fake 4K" is all you need to see to know this guy is a clown. So on PC with DLSS, it's fake 4K too ? That's just a stupid way to see it, native 4K is usually a waste, power is better used elsewhere when your reconstruction technique is fine.

PS5 and XSX are really close in power, it's unlikely you'll see any difference on screen in multiplatform games. You'll have to freeze the game and pixel count, only DF does that...

 

[pawel86ck]

Because he said it will be based on workload.

Can't take his words out of context.

You want to tell me PS5 GPU will stay at fixed 2.2GHz all the time? Games will locked framerate and resolution will not require to run at 2.2GHz clock all the time, however games with unlocked framerate or dynamic resolution will push GPU usage to the max. In such games they will have to downclock CPU, or GPU very frequently.

 

[Cato]

I mean obviously xbox is more powerful, but i also think that ps5 will cost more. Anyway if the ps5 has “fake” 4k i really dont care as long we get good games.

PS4 is the weakest platform but it has Ghost Of Tsushima graphics.
I wouldn't worry. It is not the size, it how you use it.

As long as BB2 is announced near launch I am ok.

 

[longdi]

Doesn’t this captured on PS5 trailer debunk it?

When i first saw this trailer, the whole thing seems bad.
Choppy chops everywhere, the animations stilted, and bad textures abound.
I guess this explains it.

 

[FunkMiller]

Suggestion:

everybody please take screenshots of his tweets, and keep them for the day when we have proper comparisons between the Series X and Ps5. And if Golem’s ‘insider information’ turns out to be bullshit, we can let him know this by reminding him of these tweets.

 

[Stilton Disco]

Some people being reminded of some hard truths in this thread.

I like it.

Indeed.

Honeslty I'm starting to find these wild speculation and dickwaving competitions based on nothing but out of context numbers a bit tiresome. I love a good theoretical hardware discussion as much as the next massive nerd, but at this point it's just starting to get unnecessarily aggressive with how way too many people are desperate to prove their preferred product is superior.

Without the actual Hardware and games to directly compare, we don't know shit. It's all guess work, so anyone declaring anything as a certainty is just being an idiot.

Not that power even really matters most generations.

In 5th gen PS1 was weaker than the N64, but it had more games, wider appeal and a better overall library, so sold better.

Same with 6th Gen. PS2 was weak as hell compared to the Xbox 1 and Gamecube, but that didn't stop it being the most successful console of all time.

Last gen Both the 360 and PS3 were beaten by the Wii, a system that couldn't do HD and that a lot of multiplatform games couldn't even run on.

This gen the power crown went back and forth between PS and Xbox, but made no difference to sales, then halfway through the gen the Switch came in, with it's toaster level of welly, and has sold like hot cakes, far exceeding the sales of the monster that is the XOX in roughly the same time frame.

There are so many more important factors than raw TF count or SSD speed that make a good console, yet people are just loosing their minds over it without any context at all for what it is they're arguing about.

 

[Mister Wolf]

"Fake 4K" is all you need to see to know this guy is a clown. So on PC with DLSS, it's fake 4K too ? That's just a stupid way to see it, native 4K is usually a waste, power is better used elsewhere when your reconstruction technique is fine.

PS5 and XSX are really close in power, it's unlikely you'll see any difference on screen in multiplatform games. You'll have to freeze the game and pixel count, only DF does that...

Yes DLSS is fake 4K. It's the best Fake 4k.

 

[CAB_Life]

GT7 - 4K60fps
HFW - 4K30fps
MM - 4K30ps

FUD Golem at it again

Are those confirmed as “native” 4K? It honestly doesn’t matter, as reconstruction techniques are getting so good as to be imperceptible from desired resolutions, but I think that’s what this Dusk Golem person is inferring.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

Are those confirmed as “native” 4K? It honestly doesn’t matter, as reconstruction techniques are getting so good as to be imperceptible from desired resolutions, but I think that’s what this Dusk Golem person is inferring.

df said all games where 4k (at least thats what they analysis conclusion was)

 

[Esppiral]

(Doubt)

PS5 components, outside of the SSD, seem to have been selected to keep the price down. The entire sense I get from their unique way of handling their clocks is maximum value from components selected with a somewhat mainstream-acceptable price in mind.

That makes ense, but he industrial design of the pa5 seems quite expensive.

 

[martino]

Indeed.

Honeslty I'm starting to find these wild speculation and dickwaving competitions based on nothing but out of context numbers a bit tiresome. I love a good theoretical hardware discussion as much as the next massive nerd, but at this point it's just starting to get unnecessarily aggressive with how way too many people are desperate to prove their preferred product is superior.

Without the actual Hardware and games to directly compare, we don't know shit. It's all guess work, so anyone declaring anything as a certainty is just being an idiot.

Not that power even really matters most generations.

In 5th gen PS1 was weaker than the N64, but it had more games, wider appeal and a better overall library, so sold better.

Same with 6th Gen. PS2 was weak as hell compared to the Xbox 1 and Gamecube, but that didn't stop it being the most successful console of all time.

Last gen Both the 360 and PS3 were beaten by the Wii, a system that couldn't do HD and that a lot of multiplatform games couldn't even run on.

This gen the power crown went back and forth between PS and Xbox, but made no difference to sales, then halfway through the gen the Switch came in, with it's toaster level of welly, and has sold like hot cakes, far exceeding the sales of the monster that is the XOX in roughly the same time frame.

There are so many more important factors than raw TF count or SSD speed that make a good console, yet people are just loosing their minds over it without any context at all for what it is they're arguing about.

your post cleaned my eyes
exclusives don't tell al the story too
price matter too
people choose based on a different mix/proportion of a lot of different parameters.
but having a "parameters" as an argument for your product can only help.

 

[bitbydeath]

Debunk what? That its struggling to maintain 30fps?

Captured in 4K.

 

[bitbydeath]

When i first saw this trailer, the whole thing seems bad.
Choppy chops everywhere, the animations stilted, and bad textures abound.
I guess this explains it.

Still 4K though.

 

[DForce]

You want to tell me PS5 GPU will stay at fixed 2.2GHz all the time? Games will locked framerate and resolution will not require to run at 2.2GHz clock all the time, however games with unlocked framerate or dynamic resolution will push GPU usage to the max. In such games they will have to downclock CPU, or GPU very frequently.

Cerny said they can have 10TF of GPU power when needed as long as the CPU is not running at its max frequency. Can't keep taking things out of context. It's right here if they need 10TF of GPU power.