Monocle
Member
Maybe he was familiar with the ridiculous trope of crazy gay villains and noticed that Far Cry 4's villain fits the stereotype. It's not homophobic to identify a possible instance of stereotyping.
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Far Cry 4's villain is not gay.
- Thread starter sjay1994
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Parapraxis
Member
What other gay villains have there been in games...or movies or books for that matter that have been "stereotypical" and/or derogatory?
Fornaximus
Member
"Uh oh, he's wearing a vibrant suit, HE'S GAY AND YOU'RE HOMOPHOBIC, UBISOFT!"
People should ease up on the knee-jerk offended schtick.
People should ease up on the knee-jerk offended schtick.
That's actually a very sparse TVtropes page for a "very common trope", especially when consider the following quote:
The parallels between the 'Is Link female' thread and this is actually pretty funny. Just as I'd like to see a female link, I'd quite like to see a well realized gay bad guy, I can't see the Far Cry writers being the ones to do it, but if they could it would be interesting to see. That would not fit the trope and quite clearly, we've not seen enough to even consider whether he would at this point.
Except he doesn't fit the stereotype because he's not gay, and there was nothing in the trailer to suggest he was.
licktheenvelope
Member
I don't care in the slightest who this fictional asian character is sleeping with, why on Earth would anyone else?
no, he said that he was worried ubisoft stereotyped gay men and possibly made that stereotype into a villain, and how this result would be deplorable. he has nothing to be ashamed of, and how he came to his conclusion (which included more than the dude wearing pink, which people completely ignore in this thread repeatedly) makes sense to me, as another gay guy myself
Parapraxis
Member
In comparison to all the many other villains in film/games/anime/comics, etc, that is an extremely short list which ignores any non-stereotypical portrayal of gay villains, and that list doesn't even necessarily explain how any such portrayal was stereotypical.
It looks to be fairly shallow research with a fair amount of conflation and opinion.
toastyToast
Member
Even if he was gay and the villain, don't people love villains?
Monocle
Member
If you think one page represents the actual gamut of stereotypical gay characters, I have no idea what to tell you. Never mind if that was the one example I produced. It's enough to establish that the trope is a thing and I'm not just pulling it out of my ass.
He fits the stereotype to the extent that he's an unpredictable flamboyant psycho. It's nice that subverts the trope by being straight, but let's not pretend it's homophobic to see his design and wonder if he's another insulting gay villain.
Said this in another thread. BUT...even if he was gay, and was flamboyant and eccentric, there is nothing wrong with that. It only becomes an issue when these stereotypes are over used for all representation of gay people (who are not all the same, and who are diverse just like anyone else), or if the character was solely defined by this (rather than their personality, or being written well).
This idea that no character or gay person can ever be portrayed that way, is pretty ridiculous. I also think it's unfair to judge, when no one actually has played the game (and therefore doesn't know anything about the character). How can we determine if he's a poorly written character when we know nothing about him? I don't mind having the discussion. I think it's always good too debate topics like this. So to be clear, I'm not saying that we shouldn't have the discussion about stereotypes. I'm even fine with people discussing their concern about this character. But I don't get those that were outright condemning it and assuming it was going to be offensive or bad.
This idea that no character or gay person can ever be portrayed that way, is pretty ridiculous. I also think it's unfair to judge, when no one actually has played the game (and therefore doesn't know anything about the character). How can we determine if he's a poorly written character when we know nothing about him? I don't mind having the discussion. I think it's always good too debate topics like this. So to be clear, I'm not saying that we shouldn't have the discussion about stereotypes. I'm even fine with people discussing their concern about this character. But I don't get those that were outright condemning it and assuming it was going to be offensive or bad.
flintstryker
Banned
It never once crossed my mind that this guy could be gay when watching that video hell he struck me as a cross between a rich eccentric and the Joker.
It's less about whether or not the character is actually gay. It's just that some or all of the gay stereotype is applied to villains quite often (they're also pretty much never explicitly gay), and well, it's just plain disheartening how endemic it is in media.
For example, take this comedy bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFyo9b4_6iY
He sure seems to have a lot of examples to pull from, and he makes nowhere near an exhaustive list. I saw a video once explicitly examining this, but I can't seem to find it anymore.
More importantly though, it doesn't matter if he's gay or not. It's the stereotype that matters -- it's the association of the gay stereotype with villains that has some people worried.
Of course, we'll have to see how he actually acts. He could just be eccentric. However, if he happens to be flamboyant and effeminate, then it doesn't really matter whether or not he's actually gay -- this is just picking at the scab.
For example, take this comedy bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFyo9b4_6iY
He sure seems to have a lot of examples to pull from, and he makes nowhere near an exhaustive list. I saw a video once explicitly examining this, but I can't seem to find it anymore.
More importantly though, it doesn't matter if he's gay or not. It's the stereotype that matters -- it's the association of the gay stereotype with villains that has some people worried.
Of course, we'll have to see how he actually acts. He could just be eccentric. However, if he happens to be flamboyant and effeminate, then it doesn't really matter whether or not he's actually gay -- this is just picking at the scab.
Parapraxis
Member
Apparently not if there is an opportunity to feel offence.
It also completely precludes the notion that any gay person could ever have a certain sense of humour and/or laugh at a certain type of homosexual portrayal within their community.
This couldn't be farther from the truth IMO, As I said earlier, I grew up with my parents having gay friends, they RARELY found offence in things many here would be screaming bloody murder about, such as Kids in the Hall, or other comedy shows that involved cross-dressing (often by gays) and extremely flamboyant "stereotypical" characters.
Monocle
Member
You're right, let me spend five hours gathering sources that demonstrate homophobia exists and was brazenly reflected in media until very recently.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
His flamboyancy makes him look more like a metrosexual really.
A crazy, well-spoken metrosexual.
A crazy, well-spoken metrosexual.
Burden of proof is on the prosecution not the defense.
Edit: Not trying to take sides in this.
Except they didn't, and he stereotyped homosexual men in the process in order to make his claim. Which makes it shameful as his stereotype was ignorant, highly insulting, and laughably ironic given the context of the thread. The fact that he is homosexual himself is no excuse, as he should definitely know better.
Monocle
Member
No shit, but it's pretty ridiculous for someone to refuse to acknowledge such a common phenomenon until I put myself through my paces.
Internet arguments, how do they work? (By acting obtuse and refusing to budge an inch, apparently.)
He didn't see a gay person, he saw a stereotype of a gay person. That's kind of the fucking point. If he saw someone walking down the street in the same outfit, he wouldn't automatically assume the guy is gay.
uh, he specifically said that if the character was gay and displayed all the stereotypes of a gay man then it would be disrespectful
look, gay men have the stereotype that they are effiminate and wear things that are effiminate. gay villains also stereotypically display dominance over other men to the point of degrading both the subject and the object (where the subject is the gay villain and the object is who he is dominating). it isn't a stretch to make the claim that ubisoft is writing a stereotypically gay character, and once again, he had a few reasons to believe it.
because the guy isn't gay, then cool, they didn't make a stereotypically gay character. what he was saying was contingent on the villain being stereotypically gay -- notice the "possible" and other words like possible stated multiple times in his post. no harm done, dude is straight
no gay dude is offended from killerisjed's post, come on
Ubisoft is subverting the trope by crapping out a highly transparent Joker (a highly inspirational character that has existing for close to 100 years now) clone?
Or are you saying every flamboyant man in a light colored flashy suit is subverting this trope? Man, the '70s and '80s sure were a highly subversive time for media, I guess...
Parapraxis
Member
I never said they don't exist, just that I don't think that "gay villains" are as prevalent as you make them out to be, let alone terribly stereotypical ones.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Yeah, honestly, flamboyancy isn't really just a gay man trope anymore.
He wasn't refusing to acknowledge the trend he said your source was shit.
To put it in layman's terms.
Parapraxis
Member
Hey, I worked in a bakery, I'm fairly gentle in character and I had to wear all white...plenty of girls I was literally pursuing thought I was gay at first.
Did I give a fuck...no (though I hated the uniform)
Was it surprising when I realized I had to basically tell them I wasn't gay...yeah, a little bit.
Stereotypes can be an awful thing, i think they are especially bad when people see them when they aren't even there!
RSLAEV
Member
Holy fucking god what the fuck am I reading?
Dr Amazon MD
Member
To be fair he actually admits to stereotyping in the post.
SchrodingerC
Member
Before Ubi finally confirmed Pagan was not gay I figured he was one of those mythical, rare creatures called Metrosexuals.Ya know, someone who's heterosexual, but has an interest in fashion and looks fabulous as fuck.
Apparently people keep forgetting metros do exist.
Apparently people keep forgetting metros do exist.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I don't see why a flamboyant gay villain is more offensive than a flamboyant gay protagonist. Michael Bay's ghetto Autobots in TF2 were plenty offensive despite fighting on the side of good.
It really comes down to the writing, and to preemptively throw Ubi under the bus after FC3 had one of the best villains in recent memory was, in retrospect, really unfair. "The villain is racist" complaints were even more confusing for me - he's the villain, I'm already assuming he's kind of a dick. Why can't a videogame villain be an unapologetic racist?
I can't say I was thrilled
Before reading that thread, it didn't occur to me that the antagonist could be gay. He just looked like a guy who had way too much money and spent it on gaudy clothing to assert his power (both physically, the way he had his hand on the guy's head on the cover) and financially (being in expensive clothing while his soldier is in an old uniform).
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
..wa..... wait what? THAT'S a homophobic stereotype that's... like ... real???
"Flamboyantly Gay Psychopaths are ruining america with all their wanton but also deviously stylish violence!!!" LoL wtf
Oh there's plenty of stereotypical gay characters in media as a whole, but when you boil it down to baddy gay characters in video games, I don't think it's possible to describe that as a stereotype because it's actually incredibly rare.
DOWN
Banned
Well considering how gay characters number less, it becomes a major example as one of only a few in major recent roles. Which makes that character's behaviors easy to misinterpret by those who have had few fair or positive examples to have become previously familiar with.
But why anyone thought they should assume Far Cry 4 was depicting a gay character based on his suit and hair is indeed a bit irrational.
Don't worry, social justice warriors will find another thing to complain about.
Just look at what they're saying about AC Unity.
It never fucking fails, does it?
Muscle Wizard
Banned
Technically Volgin falls under the archetype of psycho bisexual.
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