Why would the exclusive payoff be that large?
They probably estimated Xbox sales and then paid Square that amount. Maybe a little extra to cover a delayed PC release.
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Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth Has Sold Around 2 Million Copies, PS5 Player Data Suggests
Why would the exclusive payoff be that large?
They probably estimated Xbox sales and then paid Square that amount. Maybe a little extra to cover a delayed PC release.
lh032
I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
Lets have an example here.
Remake was release during the covid and on a platform almost double the user base on ps5. Everybody staying at home, gaming spending is up.
Rebirth was released this year, everybody going out, ps5 only, half the user base, on top of that its a sequel with connected story.
Its not hard to figure it out.
You are spinning the narrative here, not me.
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The comparison I’m making is with FFXVI.
- We got the 3 million PR after one week.
- it’s PS5 only
If you want to discuss how install base could impact a well received FF title, XVI is pretty much the only one you can use since it’s current gen only.
This can’t be that hard to grasp.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Maybe they didn’t pay at all. Maybe the deal was like:
Square Enix will release game exclusively on PS5 increasing install base of system.
Sony will market the game with strategically placed articles in Washington Post and other mainstream media outlets thereby making the franchise mainstream and appealing to a wide demographic.
I think both of these attempts failed. You don’t invest $200 million in game without expectations of a big payoff like franchise growth.
But you're also comparing a remake to a new mainline entry. One that has been lowball estimated at 2.2M sales by Ampere based on player engagement and one that officially shipped/digitally sold 3M. What conclusion are you trying to draw from this comparison that wasn't even made exactly? That install base doesn't matter for sales?
Fredrik
Member
They’ll all figure it out eventually. PC gaming is growing fast, in some markets more than others, entusiasts are moving to PC, younger people are on PC too now, Steam concurrent players is used even by console fans to judge the hype and success.
Might not be an easy fix though. I’m thinking they might be struggling with the porting. SE used Nixxes for this but Sony bought them. Are they porting in-house or use some other external porting studio? They say FFXVI PC version is moving along smoothly but we’ll see how that goes.
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The artful mincer
Member
FFVII rebirth is the closest game to that formula
balls of snow
Member
Shame the two best final fantasy games in a decade released back to back and the ip is tanking. Put a bow on it after Vii Return to Sender. Go out on top.
Reboot ff1 as a gaas.
Also, get your karma for abadoning Deus Ex and Tomb Raider.
Reboot ff1 as a gaas.
Also, get your karma for abadoning Deus Ex and Tomb Raider.
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Exede
Member
Wasn't ment to serious
what metric are you using to say the 2.2 m estimate is ‘lowballed’?
Of course install base matters. But there’s also obviously sufficient install base to drive sales on the level of FFXVI and better if enthusiasm for the title is there.
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Because that value is actually "peak daily active users" being masqueraded as sales in this thread. Peak daily active users are usually significantly lower than actual sales. The 3M FF16 also includes shipped unsold units whereas "peak daily active users" can't even include those let alone those who play it on a different day.
You're just looking for excuses more like. You said you're "Dissecting the ‘install base’ argument" but you haven't really dissected anything. Do you believe that the 95M install base didn't benefit FF7R part 1? If you do then what are you arguing about with me now? Then you moved on to FF16 without a point of reference as to how much it should have sold in comparison to the mainline entry.
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Unknown Soldier
Member
It's so cute seeing the usual green rats coming out in force to attack a new Final Fantasy every time it's released for the crime of not being released on Xbox 
All my arguments have been about FF16. You’re the one who keeps going on and on about Remake. As soon as Square made the decision to keep FF16 and FF7 Rebirth as current gen exclusive, for me the sensible comparisons should be between those two games. Consecutive AAA FF releases on the same platform.
We’ve seen a significantly increased PS5 install base since FF16 launched, and yet the general inference is that Rebirth is selling worse than FF16. That to me seems like the issue may be some of the other reasons given in this thread (sequel-itis, non-mainline entry) vs Install base.
I can’t speak to Ampere’s methods, but surely if pure sales is so much more than 2.2 million, one would expect ‘shipped + sold’ to be in the same ballpark as the likes of FF16 that got the PR?
.
Angry_Megalodon
Member
Wait a sec, this "news" comes from the well-known anti-Sony/Square troll??? Are we seriously citing him as a credible source?
The level of this thread just sank to new depths, if that was even possible.
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No, you replied to my post comparing sales of remake to rebirth and the install base difference to 'dissect the argument about install base' without making much of a point using FF16. Now when I tell you that the figure is "peak daily active users", instead of accepting it's a lowball value for sales you once again revert to "but why didn't they do PR like FF16? Just let it go. You don't know if it sold better and you don't even know how a remake would compare to a mainline entry to "dissect the installbase argument" which you seem to agree with anyway.
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KungFucius
King Snowflake
But you could get the first one free with it if you preordered.... but that means you have to play 60 hours to get caught up. And FFXVI was meh and just released in the previous year.
Whatever. I enjoyed it for the most part until the ending. It did have way too many minigames.
laynelane
Member
I haven't played the remake (either part) yet, but will likely do so one day. Nomura is a big part of the reason why I've been so hesitant, to be frank.
Fart Knight
Al Pachinko, Konami President
Part 3 canceled lol. I bought it but haven't played it yet
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
It will be interesting to see if the biggest video game market will be able to salvage the sales of this game by then.
Sneakysnake
Member
Imagine how much better the industry would be if Sony spent it's money making PlayStation better instead of paying to make sure Xbox is worse off by paying off companies to keep their games off of Xbox?Aanalysis firm Ampere has been doing for recent PS5 exclusive Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth. Square Enix has yet to provide any concrete information on how well Rebirth has sold, but PS5 daily active user data suggests that it's surpassed at least 2 million copies since its launch on the 29th February.
So, how does that compare to other big budget Final Fantasy games released over recent years? Well, for starters, Final Fantasy 7 Remake — the original PS4 version, and Rebirth's predecessor — managed 3.5 million sales in just three days.
Meanwhile, Final Fantasy 16 — which had Square Enix sending mixed messages with regards to its success versus the publisher's expectations — sold 3 million at launch. Like Rebirth, it was also a PS5 exclusive.
Ampere Analysis
Source
Competition is great when both sides are fighting to make their companies better but competition is actually harmful if one or both sides focus on making their opponent's products worse rather than making their own product better.
Goalus
Member
Are you illiterate?
Madflavor
Member
The chickens are coming home to roost for all of Square's bad decisions over the last couple decades. They were able to weather most of it due to brand recognition and goodwill from fans, but as their fanbase are aging out, and due to their failure to capture younger gamers, sales with FF have stagnated. Part of the problem is their exclusivity to Sony. No I don't think if Rebirth were released to PC it would magically give them a huge boost to sales. It would help, but not by a ton. Same goes for the Xbox. But this isn't because Final Fantasy wouldn't sell on those consoles. It's because they never cultivated an audience on other consoles over the years. If you want your franchise to reach out to a wider and younger audience, you can't keep your IP on one console. Sure they're eventually ported to PC, but that usually happens 1-2 years later, well after marketing has died down.
To counter some of the dooming going on in the thread, no Final Fantasy is not dead and no FFVII Part 3 isn't cancelled. They're working on it right now. FFXIV is a resounding success for Square and one of their main money makers. They're fine. But in the long term there's clearly a big problem with the IP that they need to address soon. They can't continue down this path and hope their "Breath of the Wild" moment will happen.
To counter some of the dooming going on in the thread, no Final Fantasy is not dead and no FFVII Part 3 isn't cancelled. They're working on it right now. FFXIV is a resounding success for Square and one of their main money makers. They're fine. But in the long term there's clearly a big problem with the IP that they need to address soon. They can't continue down this path and hope their "Breath of the Wild" moment will happen.
Silly take because it wouldn't be healthier without this remake. What makes you think Square didn’t go looking for a partner/funding to greenlight this project in the first place? Sony greenlit this remake and did a 3 part game deal in 2015 with Adam Boyes to make playstation better and fund a game. The exclusivity deal has ended years ago for remake, yet nothing has come to xbox. This game happened because Adam wanted to make PS better, not because he was making xbox worse.
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Sneakysnake
Member
Maybe the trilogy never happens without PS but I suspect Square is feeling like they would have been better off making these games with simultaneous launches on PS, Xbox and most importantly, PC. What about FF16? You really think that never happens without Sony too? Square has already expressed they are not happy with sales of these games. So Square is unhappy, Xbox gamers are unhappy, PC gamers are unhappy but Sony got to do a "nana-nana-poo-poo" to Xbox so I guess it's....good for the industry?
Also we know that Sony has paid devs to keep games off of gamepass. Even if you're right and this particular trilogy would have never happened without Sony, you know exactly what I'm talking about when I say that Sony pays devs to keep games off of Xbox. Games that would have been made or already were being made with or without Sony are being kept off of other platforms bc Sony views hurting Xbox as helping PS.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
It's so cute seeing the usual green rats coming out in force to attack a new Final Fantasy every time it's released for the crime of not being released on Xbox
Post the Unicorn Overlord Amazon picture again, that should show 'em.
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Not this again. FF7Remake has had its exclusivity period long expire years ago, the fact that it continues to not release on xbox is because square don't feel it would add many more sales. Maybe they want MS to pay up for funding it like they did Octopath 1 (which again had octopath 2 not release on xbox without any input from Sony or Nintendo). If square was unhappy with the arrangement they wouldn't have done it again with FF16. If you also believe that MS don't prevent games they sign on gamepass from coming to PS you've got your head buried in the sand.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Scotty W
Member
It’s even worse. Look. At. All. This. Shit!
Are you suggesting that the exclusivity period hasn't expired on FF7 Remake? Because it has a long time ago.
Besides, you posted an article where Square Enix is saying how happy they are about the arrangement. Which is the complete opposite of what Sneakysnake is suggesting here:
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
The article very directly implies otherwise.
Besides, do you really think Phil "let's get FF on Xbox" Spencer wouldn't be shelling out money to get VII Remake on Xbox if it wasn't contractually restricted?
Think it through.
I'm sure they're happy with the initial stacks of money, but with things like Rebirth's PS exclusivity being lessened from 6 months to 3, it kinda shows that they want it on other platforms (namely, PC) quicker.
I mean, reading the Ampere text and seeing that the 2.2m number includes demo players, I’m skeptical with your ‘lowball’ position.
Square has provided either day one or launch week sales PR for FFXV, FF7Remake and FF16. Not doing any for Rebirth kinda speaks volumes.
Who says he isn't? I think he is a business man who is more about FF14 the live service game and knows that paying large amounts for a late port of FF7 wouldn't mean much for xbox in terms of sales. He may still do it though come June. Has nothing to do with exclusivity of the first game still being in place though.
Its exclusivity wasn't lowered from 6 months to 3. You're comparing it to the FF7Remake period I'm guessing? I thought you said that still exists and wasn't 6months anyway? The exclusivity window for rebirth has always been 3 months.
They also made these comments in the article you posted 2 weeks after release, not from when they got their initial stacks:
This is not somebody unhappy about the exclusivity.Console exclusivity key to ‘Final Fantasy VII Rebirth’ success, team says
Square Enix focused on single-platform development and employee retention, bucking some industry norms
The seamlessness of the world in “Final Fantasy VII Rebirth” was made possible by focusing on developing for a single platform, said series producer Yoshinori Kitase. “Final Fantasy VII Rebirth” has released to widespread critical acclaim, in large part due to its stunning, seamless fantasy world, the kind rarely seen in the medium outside of the biggest games.
This would not have been possible if “Rebirth” was planned as a multiplatform project, said Final Fantasy franchise producer Yoshinori Kitase. Its development exclusively for the PlayStation 5 made it easier for the team to focus on building a world with diverse geography, indoor and outdoor areas populated with activities, characters friendly and hostile, all seamlessly represented with no “loading screen” interruptions. Developing games for multiple platforms, by contrast, usually creates more work that focuses on porting rather than iterating on a game’s design.
The last open-world Final Fantasy game, “Final Fantasy XV,” targeted the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, but it was scarcely populated, defined mostly by long stretches of highway and grass with little to do. “Rebirth,” however, is a crowded and bustling amusement park...
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Come off it dude, the demo players is stated as 0.38M. Let's assume all the demo users from demo launch were part of the peak and take that away from 2.2M peak daily active users. you get 1.82M peak daily active users. Do you know what peak daily active users means? It means people playing the game in a single day. If you think that's representative of sales let alone shipped then I can't help you.
The Ampere analysis doesn't even equate this to sales. It uses engagement to project a massive 4M DAU for Stellar blade based on demo engagement. The lowball estimate for 'sales' comes from Push Square using this data incorrectly to predict "at least 2M sales". It's lowballing it and incorrect.
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Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
So single player Square Enix is languishing and Live Service Square Enix is thriving?
If only someone was able to predict this years ago.
They need to make an open world, Zelda inspired, mainline Final Fantasy next, and funnel the rest of their resources to a new GAAS title. The 60:40 split works for everybody.
If only someone was able to predict this years ago.
They need to make an open world, Zelda inspired, mainline Final Fantasy next, and funnel the rest of their resources to a new GAAS title. The 60:40 split works for everybody.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Wait, really? That puts Zhuge's tweet into a better context.
Remake reportedly did 5 million sales after its first couple of months and if this is doing roughly half, it's probably at or near 2 million, maybe 2.5 million just doing some napkin maths.
Square not releasing any PR about total shipments just muddies this. They should put out a PR and get it over with.
Persona 3 / 4 / 5 came to Xbox, those have been out longer than FFVII Remake. The earlier Yakuza games all came to Xbox after much larger windows as well.
Once again, just take a moment and think that the guy who was on stage with FF Executives a few months ago and wants more Square and FF games on Xbox wouldn't want to get VII Remake on Xbox.
Actually, I did make a mistake here. The 6 month exclusivity for 'other platforms' was for Intergrade.
FFVII Remake box said no other platforms till 12 months, initially.
Integade said 6 months (after this is when the PC version came out)
Rebirths says 3 months
They've been progressive reducing these 'other platform' exclusivity windows with each release, they want the games out on PC sooner. Death Stranding has already shown us that Sony has no qualms with making exclusivity deals for console while allowing PC releases of those games.
Nothing I've said here is remotely surprising or shocking.
I'm sure targeting a single platform did help the game come out quicker, no one's doubting that. But it's a game made on one of the most popular multi-platform engines, so it's not like they were going to need to author tools from scratch.
Besides, that statement sounds very .. familiar ..
Starfield Is A Better Game Because It's Exclusive To Xbox And Not On PlayStation, Todd Howard Says
"When you're making something exclusive then the more you can focus."
www.gamespot.com
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Sushi_Combo
Member
Give us starfield, hellblade, Indiana Jones then.
MoreJRPG
Suffers from extreme PDS
Absolutely it did. PS exclusivity kills franchises. Hence why Helldivers 2 released day and date on PC and is performing much better there than PS5 per Circana. Hence why all first party is now coming to PC because after multiple quarters of single digit profit margins, it’s no longer sustainable to lock games to a single platform and alienate the largest population of gamers, which is PC.
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You think a simultaneous PC release wouldn’t lead to more launch month sales and optimize the marketing spend?
ProtoByte
Member
Well, no. Because recent years have shown SEs mobile and MMO spaces stagnating or contracting. Whether or not they can replicate FF14 in another online release is really up in the air. With GaaS, you can release a competent game, and it doesn't catch. And it's much harder to be competent in comparison to the incumbents.
The problem that people will not acknowledge about their favorite JRPGs in general when faced with discussions like this, is that the SP stuff just has been mass market appealing since FF15. FF16 wasn't appealing to that degree. FF7 might have legendary status in-industry, but in the 25 years of its existence its capped out at 15 million sales. A Remake is not going to smash 20 million units in 5 years or something.
This is also a sequel on a platform at the halfway point of its lifecycle and sales trend compared to last time as well.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Maybe not that much, but using another remake example from last year. RE4 Remake has sold over 7 million copies in less than a year and has become Capcom's fastest selling RE game. That's pretty significant. Their games are also made on tighter budgets so 7 million for them is much more valuable than for a game that has a multi-hundred million dollar budget.
ProtoByte
Member
No, it did not.
By August of 2020 (4 months after release on PS4), the game shipped 5 million. This is after releasing to 3.5 million in the first 3 days.
More than 5 million copies of FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE shipped and sold worldwide | Square Enix
The critically-acclaimed RPG has been a critical and commercial success, particularly in terms of digital sales. Find out more here.
In June of 2021, it releases on PS5. 6 months later on PC. By the end of 2023, the game sits at 7 million - just 2 million on top of what it was at in August 2020. Meaning 10 months of remaining sales are on PS4 exclusively, another 6 months on PS exclusively, and then split between PS4/Pro, PS5 and PC for the last 24 months.
The peak concurrent player counts on Steamcharts are very low, but it's not necessarily indicative of sales like that.
Steamspy, which often vastly overestimates owners, pegs the game at anywhere from 500,000 to 1 million PC sales. I would be surprised if it was more than 700k, going by the factual breakdown above.
Tell that to Last of Us, Uncharted, God Of War, Ghost of Tsushima, Horizon, GT, Persona, Spider-Man (which sold more than every Spider-Man game combined and all of the multiplatform Arkham titles), etc.
That statement just smacks of anti-fanboyism. It's not "exclusivity", just PS exclusivity. Lest we forget that exclusivity is why this project exists as it does in the first place, if at all.
Meanwhile, you have examples of PS versions actually pulling games out of the mud.
Helldivers 2 is what? 60-40 PC-PS5? Not some huge margin. And it's a GAAS. It's very different. Anybody with a brain understands this.
Because that worked out so well for Xbox in the long term. You realise the plateaus in margins only started happening after PC releases for first parties, right? Lol
It always boggles my mind how people look at exclusive games and think "if this game was on all platforms it would sell 20 million", despite almost every other third party not touching that number, or rarely 15 million, or that much above even 10 million to public knowledge.
I think the difference would be meager. The headline would not change from "FF7 Rebirth is Underperforming". It especially wouldn't change the long term prospects of the game. It's likely that a significant portion of whatever Remake sold on PC was a double dip affair.
Single player games like this just do better on PlayStation as compared to PC or Xbox. By a lot too. Indisputable fact.
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And you think the likes of Persona 3 had a 5 year exclusivity deal or something? My point is that he might have finally paid up and funded support for xbox/gamepass come June much like he did Persona. What makes you think he isn't doing it now for FF? What makes you think the publicly stated 6 month exclusivity window for Remake that has long expired is the reason it hadn't happened till now? I am thinking.
Square kinda fudges those numbers even in the PR. They talk about ‘shipped and digitally sold’ so it includes copies languishing on store shelves.
The 5 million figure was also released after 4 months of sales. Rebirth has been out for about half that duration.
I don’t have much faith in the accuracy of Ampere’s estimates based on their methodology, but if you take Zhuge’s tweet at face value, the 2m range seems just about right.
Square put the game on PC as an Epic Game Store exclusive for a year, then pretty much shadow dropped it on Steam mid 2022. No marketing, no hype.
And you wonder why it didn’t set charts on fire on PC.
ProtoByte
Member
RE and FF are very different things.
RE is about as western as it gets from Japan.
And again, staggered releasing is not going to pull down a 20 million seller to 7 million. It's just.
But it'd be interesting to see the sales breakdown by platform on RE4. I remember British console sales on PS steamrolling Xbox sales. Pretty big thread about it.
Going by the 3 year dev timeline for Rebirth, I highly doubt this game was a multi-hundrerd million dollar project.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
If it's happening now it's only because any kind of exclusivity clause that would have prevented it otherwise have lapsed. We've already read about a Sony VP being proud of securing Remake and Rebirth as exclusives, the word secure implies it's a continued thing.
The publicly stated 6 month window could have been extended, they already did that once for Intergrade. Heck, we've seen examples of games / projects that were announced as multi-platform, now exclusively on one platform.
Yeah, honestly I wouldn't be opposed to this thread closing, since this is based on player activity metrics and a new one created based on Zhuge's tweet since that IMO that is a far more reliable metric.
vaibhavpisal
Member
It should’ve been then.
It should be no expense spared title. And each installment should sell 20 million +. Thats the minimum they should aim for.
GTA 6 is investing a cool billion just for production of the game. You have this luxury when you sell 200 million copies.
If fans are ok with Final Fantasy slowly turning into AA production, I really dunno what to say.