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[Dice//]

Perhaps I just woke up and first saw the thread? Anyways I am Too lazy. Just what I think. I never paid attention to the whole sex gender thing, so I think it's stupid and pointless.

Well that's great for you, but some people have been bullied or needed therapy or need to have a whole "coming out" process because we're so stuck on gender norms and society at large is so keen on making sure we fit the mould.

Think before you speak, lazy bones.

Also apparently China just banned being gay[?] (topic from yesterday) so that's great.

It'll either work in the kid's favor because bullies will have too much material to work with and deem it too easy to bother, or the kid'll get the shit beaten out of them on the reg.

Either way they're in for a rough childhood regardless of the parent's intentions.

How black and white. So is this FOR SURE going to happen this way?

 

[mantidor]

You didn't answer my question. How do YOU see this going? How can a 3 years old child decide the gender?

It's not really a decision, being transgender is simply a condition, where your gender does not match the one "assigned", but it's really more that your gender does not match the gender usually linked to your sex, even a kid that had "no gender education" can be trans, many have been on the news.

Basically, "decision" is a bad way to explain it, it's more like a discovery of your own self, like it is with sexual orientation.

 

[Laiza]

It'll either work in the kid's favor because bullies will have too much material to work with and deem it too easy to bother, or the kid'll get the shit beaten out of them on the reg.

Either way they're in for a rough childhood regardless of the parent's intentions.

That's kind of a fucked up assumption.

Not every classroom is going to have a bully in it. The idea that it's some kind of constant is... frankly, kind of bizarre.

 

[MazeHaze]

You know who doesn't think it's stupid and pointless? Transgender people.

Because the other children in the kindergarten will be boys or girls. And you're child will talk to them about male organs.

There's a good chance that the child will already identify by that age. I definitely knew I was a boy in kindergarten.

Also, everyone keeps bringing up school. I think it's also extremely likely that early childhood education will be at home for this individual.

 

[TheDarkLord]

Your username is 'SirRattleBalls'.

They are just responding to you with the appropriate pronoun for the gender you have chosen to present to us.

Anything else would be rude.

Sirrattleballs is a character from Adventure Time, If you know the reference then you know he can be make or female. Like my name is a homage to he who cant be named.

Sirrattleballs is a robot BTW in the Cartoon

 

[KingSnake]

Well what does a 3 year old need sex organs for if not solely to determine this sort of 'treatment' they get for being a boy or girl.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, but kids are....surprisingly sharp with respect to what they do or don't like from an early age. It's not 100% determined, obviously there's room to grow, but you can pick up pretty young if they're not 1:1 on what being a girly-girl or a boyish-boy is all about.

I knew I never liked dresses and my brother never really liked playing with cars. We both identify as a girl and boy respectively, but the point is to leave that sort of "pressure" off the table.



That's great! I was similar, I played with X-men figures and Barbie dolls. I'm still a woman and I love wearing a sexy outfit from time to time.... And I like playing videogames (i.e.; something still considered a "guy's hobby"). x)
Things are a lot easier when you're allowed to "flex", toys and clothes on either gendered spectrum are lots of fun.

I said it before that I totally agree that the child should grow outside of the gender norms about how to act and how to play and the biological sex shouldn't reflect on what the child wears or plays with.

But this is more than that. But if they manage it properly as a parent, kudos to them.

 

[Theonik]

....What.

How much do you know about the history of oppression with regards to transgender people?

I understand how this information affects transgendered people. And I know it is unfortunate. What you need to understand is there is real medical difference that affects one's risk factors for several types of disease that the medical community needs to be able to know. That's why the question is even there. If it was not useful knowing there would be little reason to track in the first place.

 

[Dice//]

Sirrattleballs is a character from Adventure Time, If you know the reference then you know he can be make or female. Like my name is a homage to he who cant be named.

Sirrattleballs is a robot BTW in the Cartoon

it's irrelevant to the actual argument's Sirrattleballs has been making which seem to imply the only people female to them (see what i did there) are one's who look female that most people took an issue with and "calling it like they see it" which is a little tone deaf.

 

[plagiarize]

Sirrattleballs is a character from Adventure Time, If you know the reference then you know he can be make or female. Like my name is a homage to he who cant be named.

Sirrattleballs is a robot BTW in the Cartoon

I just looked him up. He is referred to as 'he' everywhere I found.

If you think it is bigoted to refer to someone who presents themselves as 'Sir' with the male pronoun, then I don't know what to tell you. I don't presume people are a different gender than the one they present to me.

 

[Impeccable]

I understand how this information affects transgendered people. And I know it is unfortunate. What you need to understand is there is real medical difference that affects one's risk factors for several types of disease that the medical community needs to be able to know. That's why the question is even there. If it was not useful knowing there would be little reason to track in the first place.

Somehow, I think a medical professional will be able to do their job quite easily.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

And I know shit all about algebra, but I neither look down on it for that nor do I say "man this shit's dumb lul." If you don't know anything about a subject, calling it stupid and pointless doesn't do much more than make you look kind of silly.

ehh different things imo but each their own.

You know who doesn't think it's stupid and pointless? Transgender people.

You are born as a transgender? I never knew that. I am sure it's male or female. Sure transgender people can care about it. Go for it.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I just looked him up. He is referred to as 'he' everywhere I found.

If you think it is bigoted to refer to someone who presents themselves as 'Sir' with the male pronoun, then I don't know what to tell you. I don't presume people are a different gender than the one they present to me.

I think more important than the label is the user's standards. Since the user defines gender on appearance, it is entirely acceptable to look at male signifiers wrt him and use it to assume male.

 

[Ketkat]

I understand how this information affects transgendered people. And I know it is unfortunate. What you need to understand is there is real medical difference that affects one's risk factors for several types of disease that the medical community needs to be able to know. That's why the question is even there. If it was not useful knowing there would be little reason to track in the first place.

Do you think trans people should be unable to change gender markers on birth certificates and driver's licenses because doctors might need to know in case of an emergency?

 

[Platy]

You are born as a transgender? I never knew that. I am sure it's male or female. Sure transgender people can care about it. Go for it.

How do you thiink trans people start existing ?

 

[JeTmAn81]

I just looked him up. He is referred to as 'he' everywhere I found.

If you think it is bigoted to refer to someone who presents themselves as 'Sir' with the male pronoun, then I don't know what to tell you. I don't presume people are a different gender than the one they present to me.

Who defines how a gender should be presented?

 

[Kyzer]

ehh different things imo but each their own.


You are born as a transgender? I never knew that. I am sure it's male or female. Sure transgender people can care about it. Go for it.

Yes its called Gender Dysphoria, its a rare biological error in which a persons psychological identity does not match their biological sex. It causes literal pain and distress and requires medical attention or it could result in depression and suicide, or many other things. They do not have a choice and are born that way.

 

[Dice//]

I am sure it's male or female. Sure transgender people can care about it. Go for it.

lol well now that we got iRAWRasaurus's permission....

 

[A Link to the Past]

Who defines how a gender should be presented?

SirRattleBalls established it for himself by explaining that he defines gender by what he sees. So yes, it is acceptable to define it that way with him.

 

[RinsFury]

I'm fine with this, and expect it to become more common in the future. Better to let the child self-identify as their chosen gender than to risk mislabeling them and imposing a lifetime of misery. Anyone outraged over this needs to get with the times, this is 2017 not 1950.

 

[televator]

I don't know what to think, and I don't think I care. I'm sure a doctor can fully examine the kid for themselves if they really need to and apply appropriate measures towards their physical health.

I'd like to hear from actual doctors on this if I were more inclined to care.

 

[Dice//]

I'm fine with this, and expect it to become more common in the future. Better to let the child self-identify as their chosen gender than to risk mislabeling them and imposing a lifetime of misery. Anyone outraged over this needs to get with the times, this is 2017 not 1950.

I don't know what to think, and I don't think I care. I'm sure a doctor can fully examine the kid for themselves if they really need to and apply appropriate measures towards their physical health.

Two non-hyperbolic responses in a row about how it won't ruin the kid and the parents being the absolute shittiest awful people ever.

Sincerely, thank you x)

 

[Laiza]

Two non-hyperbolic responses in a row about how it won't ruin the kid and the parents being the absolute shittiest awful people ever.

Sincerely, thank you x)

Yeah, much-needed dose of sanity in an otherwise remarkably saddening thread.

Thanks for that, you two.

 

[rashbeep]

Can't get sentenced to capital punishment if your name doesn't have capital letters.

lol

 

[Kurdel]

I am all for parents who avoid playing into gendered toys or activities, raising a child without gender because of the off chance that they might be trans or intersex is insane.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

Yes its called Gender Dysphoria, its a rare biological error in which a persons psychological identity does not match their biological sex. It causes literal pain and distress and requires medical attention or it could result in depression and suicide, or many other things. They do not have a choice and are born that way.

Prob shoud have mention 99.9% but whatever. Regardless if it was a medical condition, yes i would agree. However the article (rather the first post) doesnt mention any type of medical condition. Soo to me, its stupid.

 

[Audioboxer]

We don't know the kids gender before they have developed ideas about gender. Babies literally have no concept of it. Kids younger than 5 don't seem to understand their gender is related to their genetics in any way.

'Allowing kids to be kids' is meaningless in this context. A transgender kid isn't not being a kid because they're transgender.

Puberty brings with it irreversible biological changes, and if we could do better to identify someone as transgender at a young age, it would be better for them.



I presume then, that this scientific study showing difference in brain activity between transgender and cisgender people will convince you that transgender is a real think backed by hard science. It is not a rejection of biology. Here is some actual biology for you to look over.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/

That's not quite what I said, or at least not what I believe. I stated I agree with and back gender dysphoria as a medical condition. The points of contention in my post were more around ages to go on hormones or undergo surgery. I accept puberty can change a lot, but the ages before puberty really begin should always see far more psychological intervention if anything well before genuine kids start to undergo hormone treatment or surgery. Thankfully this is the way it is in nearly all cases, with children undergoing lengthy psychological evaluation well before anything irreversible. Mainly because they are kids, and kids will often lack in critical thinking/brain development and be heavily influenced by their parents/friends until reaching maturer ages. Anyway, the OP isn't really anything to do with medicines or surgery.

 

[Dice//]

I am all for parents who avoid playing into gendered toys or activities, raising a child without gender because of the off chance that they might be trans or intersex is insane.

Prob shoud have mention 99.9% but whatever. Regardless if it was a medical condition, yes i would agree. However the article (rather the first post) doesnt mention any type of medical condition. Soo to me, its stupid.

All this is guilty of is having perhaps the MOST "helicopter parenting" ever. Indeed, it's a pretty rare thing to compensate for, but to a lesser degree it means their child won't feel any pressure to wear a dress if they associate as a boy, or to play with cars if their child wants to be a girl. The point is that it doesn't really matter and the kid can discover themselves without the pressure of a label telling them how to act.

I got so much flack in school for being just a [straight] tomboy; consider the kids who have way trickier identity issues and indeed feel way worse phychological trauma

 

[KingSnake]

Please read the article I shared.

Kids of that age think that gender is defined by what you wear and do rather than whether you've got a knob or not. Let me quote the appropriate bit again:

Kids of that age are already told by their parent that they are a boy or a girl and can make associations about what a boy and girl is based on what they wear and how they behave because they were told by their parents that.

Otherwise going by that quote you say that if the child likes to wear red and doesn't like to play with cars the child will be categorized by the other children as a girl even before the child can acknowledge for themselves their gender.

 

[Rktk]

Just have a V(agina), P(enis), N(either) on the certificate, problem solved.

 

[AmaterasuOkami076]

This is pretty ridiculous. Let the kid grow up and make their own choices. If they eventually come out as any variant of LGBTQ+ then fantastic, support that. But I can't understand what you gain from not letting them grow up with gender and sex aligned until they're old enough to know who they are. Chasing this faux progression doesn't make you look any better.

The capital letters thing is even more bonkers. Just screams "Look at me!"

 

[Arkeband]

The family's lawyer, barbara findlay, who chooses to spell her name without capital letters

Wow. Wow wow wow.

 

[RinsFury]

Two non-hyperbolic responses in a row about how it won't ruin the kid and the parents being the absolute shittiest awful people ever.

Sincerely, thank you x)

The amount of hateful comments in this thread laced with barely veiled transphobia is quite troubling. I thought GAF was better than that, but I guess not. Toxic thread, to say the least.

 

[Dice//]

This is pretty ridiculous. Let the kid grow up and make their own choices.

You realize that IS the point then

If they eventually come out as any variant of LGBTQ+ then fantastic, support that. But I can't understand what you gain from not letting them grow up with gender and sex aligned until they're old enough to know who they are. Chasing this faux progression doesn't make you look any better.

A lot of 'damage' is already done by that point. Why do you think "coming out" is such a big deal. If from a young age you're allowed to simply be what you want to be there will be a lot less drama and hurt.

Again, this can be made really weird and complicated if the parents are especially vindictive about it; but if the kid is left alone then it takes off any pressure to wear blue if you're a boy or wear a dress if you're a girl. I said it above, but even though I am a female, I ID as a female, I still got bullied a lot because I dressed like a tomboy when I was young.

I don't think these parents are trying to CHANGE THE ENTIRE GENDER-SPHERE AS WE KNOW IT, but make it "okay" if you don't conform PRECISELY to what is expected of being a boy when you're born a boy, or being a girl when you're born a girl.

The capital letters thing is even more bonkers. Just screams "Look at me!"

irrelevant to the topic. Someone saying it's right out of 'Arrested Development' had me laughing. x)
Wonder what Bob Loblaw's Law Blog would say about it.

 

[asagami_]

This is pretty ridiculous. Let the kid grow up and make their own choices. If they eventually come out as any variant of LGBTQ+ then fantastic, support that. But I can't understand what you gain from not letting them grow up with gender and sex aligned until they're old enough to know who they are. Chasing this faux progression doesn't make you look any better.

???

Parent Kori Doty - a non-binary transgender person who identifies as neither male nor female - aims to allow the child to discover their own gender.
.

 

[Costanza-san]

This is pretty ridiculous. Let the kid grow up and make their own choices. If they eventually come out as any variant of LGBTQ+ then fantastic, support that. But I can't understand what you gain from not letting them grow up with gender and sex aligned until they're old enough to know who they are. Chasing this faux progression doesn't make you look any better.

The capital letters thing is even more bonkers. Just screams "Look at me!"

You mean exactly what they're doing?

 

[marrec]

The amount of hateful comments in this thread laced with barely veiled transphobia is quite troubling. I thought GAF was better than that, but I guess not. Toxic thread, to say the least.

I mean, there are plenty of reasons and ways to be skeptical of this idea and the parents motivations without being hateful or anti-trans.

This is, frankly, novel and ridiculous. Uncharted waters here and experimenting like this on a baby is ethically challenging to say the least. I'm sure in the end they'll grow up perfectly fine (as long as their parent's obvious need for control doesn't extend too far into their lives) however there are ways it could completely backfire on the parent and introduce other psychological issues for the child.

 

[Costanza-san]

I mean, there are plenty of reasons and ways to be skeptical of this idea and the parents motivations without being hateful or anti-trans.

This is, frankly, novel and ridiculous. Uncharted waters here and experimenting like this on a baby is ethically challenging to say the least. I'm sure in the end they'll grow up perfectly fine (as long as their parent's obvious need for control doesn't extend too far into their lives).

Many here have still shown a shocking lack of understanding or respect for the subject.

 

[AoM]

A lot of 'damage' is already done by that point. Why do you think "coming out" is such a big deal. If from a young age you're allowed to simply be what you want to be there will be a lot less drama and hurt.

Again, this can be made really weird and complicated if the parents are especially vindictive about it; but if the kid is left alone then it takes off any pressure to wear blue if you're a boy or wear a dress if you're a girl. I said it above, but even though I am a female, I ID as a female, I still got bullied a lot because I dressed like a tomboy when I was young.

I don't think these parents are trying to CHANGE THE ENTIRE GENDER-SPHERE AS WE KNOW IT, but make it "okay" if you don't conform PRECISELY to what is expected of being a boy when you're born a boy, or being a girl when you're born a girl.

It seems to me that in this case, the parent's political leaning will end up trumping the child's well-being. But only time will tell (and hopefully I'm wrong).

And I still don't understand not wanting to disclose the kid's sex (which is not gender). Sure, you don't have to constantly reinforce it to kid, but why be so averse to putting it on a birth certificate?

 

[Arkeband]

The amount of hateful comments in this thread laced with barely veiled transphobia is quite troubling. I thought GAF was better than that, but I guess not. Toxic thread, to say the least.

I'm honestly surprised you didn't grace this thread with an infamous "fuck X" driveby post and leave it at that.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Okay correct me if I am wrong here (really please) but isn't labeling sex kinda important for some medical stuff? Like I understand the idea of wanting them to decide their gender but I just thought that knowing the sex was needed in some cases?

 

[Dice//]

It seems to me that in this case, the parent's political leaning will end up trumping the child's well-being. But only time will tell (and hopefully I'm wrong).

And I still don't understand not wanting to disclose the kid's sex (which is not gender). Sure, you don't have to constantly reinforce it to kid, but why be so averse to putting it on a birth certificate?

Because once you do, that's it, the path starts to "set." See my earlier post (edited now a little to compensate for our chat here) that hits really close to home on this:

EDIT:

.

You too, read:

Till the babe has some sort of illness that warrants knowing the sex, speculating about the baby's health is baseless to talk about. And gain, I'll join the bandwagon and say these parents are dumb quacks if they don't divulge their baby's sex if a medical need became apparent; otherwise they're no better than parents who opt out of medical treatment for naturopathy

And yes, everyone does this for newborns. Go to any baby shower and you see immediately how quickly things get gendered —— you are literally born into it. I doubt any newborn girls are gonna have shirts with little cars on them as much as I doubt any boy's are gonna get onesies with flowers on them.

 

[marrec]

Okay correct me if I am wrong here (really please) but isn't labeling sex kinda important for some medical stuff? Like I understand the idea of wanting them to decide their gender but I just thought that knowing the sex was needed in some cases?

If (a big if) the parent decides to take them to a doctor (they'll probably choose a go to a doctor who chooses not to use spaces or something) the doctor will be perfectly capable of determining sex.

 

[Spades]

Poor, poor child.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Okay correct me if I am wrong here (really please) but isn't labeling sex kinda important for some medical stuff? Like I understand the idea of wanting them to decide their gender but I just thought that knowing the sex was needed in some cases?

Don't underestimate how stupid stupid people can be. Sure, go raise your child to be without gender and let them choose for themselves. I have no problem with that, but this is the equivalent of super religious people trying to pray illnesses away, and endangering their children solely to project their views on them

 

[Laiza]

It seems to me that in this case, the parent's political leaning will end up trumping the child's well-being. But only time will tell (and hopefully I'm wrong).

They're doing this specifically for the child's well-being. Their "political leanings" (a phrase, I might add, that betrays an utter lack of respect for the subject) are a direct result of their own experiences as children.

 

[Ketkat]

Don't underestimate how stupid stupid people can be. Sure, go raise your child to be without gender and let them choose for themselves. I have no problem with that, but this is the equivalent of super religious people trying to pray illnesses away, and endangering their children solely to project their views on them

How is this at all similar to "praying the illness" away? How is this hurting and endangering a child? Do you really think that if something was wrong, they wouldn't take the kid to a doctor? They're also doing all of this so that the child DOESN'T have the parents view pushed onto them.

 

[Dice//]

Poor, poor child.

Do you want fries with that drive through post? Here's your $0.02 back in change.

 

[nOoblet16]

If the parent decides to take them to a doctor (they'll probably choose a go to a doctor who chooses not to use spaces or something) the doctor will be perfectly capable of determining sex.

Okay correct me if I am wrong here (really please) but isn't labeling sex kinda important for some medical stuff? Like I understand the idea of wanting them to decide their gender but I just thought that knowing the sex was needed in some cases?

Thing is, the card should not have "Gender" written in the first place.
It should be "Sex".

Using "Gender" in a health card meant for medical/biological purpose was the incorrect thing to do in the first place imo.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I think it could be pretty freeing to be raised with no constraints or expectations regarding gender expression, but that would be unlikely to happen due to advertising.

 

[Spades]

Do you want fries with that drive through post? Here's your $0.02 back in change.

Cheers. Keep it though, I've said all I need to on this ridiculous topic.