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[TheLostBigBoss]

How in the world is sex assigned?

When someone has ambiguous genitalia and a doctor decides if something is good enough to be a penis or not.

There was a doctor back in the 50's who did a famous study. Took a child with ambiguous genitalia* (it was a boy), and told the parents to raise the child as a girl.

The kid eventually killed itself.

Edit: wasn't ambiguous genitalia (got mixed up, read about the case on the topic that was also included with ambiguous genitals). It was a botched circumcision.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I'm pretty sure he was using that as an example of something he could potentially say that would be problematic.

Hmm. Could be, but he essentially said the same thing in the other post, just not as vulgar... oh well, w/e.

 

[marrec]

I just read the first several pages and... why are people taking issue with this? "Everyone has a biological sex" is such an outdated concept, the proper terminology is "everyone is assigned a sex" at birth. Who cares if the parent chooses to assign their child a genderless sex at birth?

I think many people (not all obviously) including me are taking issue with this because it's an unnecessary obfuscation that seems to be less about the well being of the child. Growing up in a non-gendered household is perfectly reasonable, as much as that is possible in our media fueled society, many kids are doing so today without the questionable steps taken by this parent.

In a vacuum it's fine, at a certain point the child will show masculine or feminine features and people will naturally gender them based on their assumptions. If the parent is prepared, they will have spoken to the child about it before hand to ensure they understand what's going on... but based on the various elements related to this story I'm not so sure I trust the parent to be able to adequately prepare the child for the inevitable, which could lead to other issues.

In the end it's none of our business clearly and we should really be making fun of the lawyer who doesn't capitalize her name in order to troll people.

 

[psynergylover]

this feels like uneeded hassle for their new born child for some political statement; just give the child a unisex name and then let them discover what gender they are through the nuances of life.

 

[Kinyou]

When someone has ambiguous genitalia and a doctor decides if something is good enough to be a penis or not.

There was a doctor back in the 50's who did a famous study. Took a child with ambiguous genitalia (it was a boy), and told the parents to raise the child as a girl.

The kid eventually killed itself.

Ok, but that's not the type of case people are talking about here. So far there's no indication that the baby has ambiguous genitalia. I imagine it's something that would have come up as argument if it were so.

 

[PSYGN]

Lol, what a time to be alive.

 

[Staccat0]

I'm pretty sure he was using that as an example of something he could potentially say that would be problematic.

Yeah, I'mm not sure there was another way to read it, but I'm not too invested in defending it considering the circumstances.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Ok, but that's not the type of case people are talking about here. So far there's not indication that the baby has ambiguous genitalia.

No, but you asked how sex could be assigned, and there are plenty of examples and studies on just that topic.

Children literally have the wrong sex assigned because of how a doctor views their genitalia and what the doctor thinks is "right" based on social norms.

 

[pixelation]

Sooo dumb.

 

[SilentRob]

edit

 

[Nickle]

I hope the kid gets to have a real life and not just be a science experiment.

 

[Audioboxer]

That's enough for me to not play games with my child's development.

I missed that you quoted me. If you take a sentence out of an article without surrounding context you can imply many things, how about the full quote.

It's not implying they do not know causes, but that it's complex and there can be many, singular or even overlapping reasons.

 

[Aske]

I just read the first several pages and... why are people taking issue with this? "Everyone has a biological sex" is such an outdated concept, the proper terminology is "everyone is assigned a sex" at birth. Who cares if the parent chooses to assign their child a genderless sex at birth?

I'd go further, and say the culture of the majority defining who and what other people are is outdated and harmful. People need to be allowed to choose any labels they prefer themselves, solely in order to help the rest of us understand how they want to be perceived. We shouldn't be labeling them; especially as kids. Not that I think parents shouldn't be able to say "my kid is a girl", but I think everyone else needs to be taught from day 0 that the act of labeling others is unacceptable. I think that's a useful and simple way to curb a behaviour which others and bullies people: don't label anyone.

 

[besada]

I'm pretty sure he was using that as an example of something he could potentially say that would be problematic and thus justify outrage.

I'm pretty sure he was an alternate account of someone banned earlier in the thread for transphobia.

 

[John Kowalski]

I'm confused because it looks like the post was saying it's assigned by another person.

It is in fact assigned by the person responsible for interpreting the sexual characteristics of the baby, so there is a layer of assignment being performed by a third party. Though it may seem a pointless distinction to make, it's really not and suggests how deeply dependent on (perhaps medically trained) perception our general sexual and gender ideas as a society are.

 

[Theonik]

What kind of life saving emergency is someone's sex relevant though? I could understand going to a doctor with an issue and having to tell them, but I can't imagine a life saving scenario like that.

Many underlying conditions if undiagnosed, can lead to medical emergencies. There is also higher risks for say heart attacks depending on gender. Ultimately this is at the discretion of the Canadian medical authorities. If they wish to get rid of sex altogether in their healthcards because they feel it serves no practical purpose then I would support this move! Surely if it isn't needed then there is no reason to keep it.

 

[Metrotab]

I wonder if the parents will be secretly disappointed if their kid ends up cisgender.

 

[Staccat0]

I'm pretty sure he was an alternate account of someone banned earlier in the thread for transphobia.

Ah. There it is.

 

[Wiped89]

Sex is still indeterminate just by looking at genitals. Intersex (not hermaphrodites) have a biological condition that makes them insensitive to androgens, which develops a clitoris into a penis and ovaries into testicles. With this condition, their external genitalia can appear ambiguous. They may even have labia, yet still have a Y chromosome - what are they at that point? What about those that are XXY or triple X Y? Right now the science is not entirely conclusive and thus the term intersex is still very much applicable.

Hell, we shouldn't have to x-ray a child to see if they have ovaries and determine this hard binary we have artificially created. Why demand a set-in-stone answer now when not all of the evidence is conclusive? That sounds awfully unscientific to me.

I did say 'apart from some medical cases'. 99.9% of babies will have a clear gender at birth based on their genitalia. I can't believe anyone would even try to dispute that.

EDIT: 98%, I stand corrected on the exact percentage.

Like I said before, it's their decision if parents wish to raise the child as gender neutral, of course. I'm just saying that to state that the child doesn't have a gender at all is 98% likely to be untrue.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I did say 'apart from some medical cases'. 99.9% of babies will have a clear gender at birth based on their genitalia. I can't believe anyone would even try to dispute that.

It's actually around 2% of kids worldwide that have intersex traits

 

[Platy]

I wonder if the parents will be secretly disappointed if their kid ends up cisgender.

Aren't we all ?

I did say 'apart from some medical cases'. 99.9% of babies will have a clear gender at birth based on their genitalia. I can't believe anyone would even try to dispute that.

Like I said before, we test in search for far more rarer disorders, diseases and effects

 

[nekkid]

It's cool, thank you for acknowledging that. It's not a daily occurrence for a lot of people, I didn't mean to be overly harsh in my reply, just that it should be assumed if you're going to comment on stuff like this that you've got some light background on the differences between sex and gender.

Every day's a school day.

But having fully read that article, it also states an undefined sex. So while my understanding of the term was wrong, this is still nonsense.

 

[Skellig Gra]

I wonder if the parents will be secretly disappointed if their kid ends up cisgender.

Let's hope not.

 

[bengraven]

I have no problem with choosing whatever you want for yourself but is it just me or does this create more identity issues later on....

 

[Somnid]

Hmm. Could be, but he essentially said the same thing in the other post, just not as vulgar... oh well, w/e.

But the point was that he noted he had misworded it and corrected it. The larger point to gain is that especially when dealing with the various subcategories of trans you need to be very careful and specific with your language which can be hard to do correctly because it requires retraining of how those categories are normally presented. People should not automatically assume it's done with particular malice.

I'm pretty sure he was an alternate account of someone banned earlier in the thread for transphobia.

Well I feel better about it then.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I'm pretty sure he was an alternate account of someone banned earlier in the thread for transphobia.

Wow, talk about persistent on choosing that hill to die on, lol.

What is wrong with that parent?

Gender = male and female
Sexuality = Straight, Gay, Apache Helicopter

How hard is it to understand? Poor kid, having to suffer his/her parent's stupidity

What the hell is this...?

 

[bengraven]

When I saw the lawyers name I was pretty sure this is some kind of Republican Onion...

 

[Fancyarcher]

Not sure what your point is? We can't have a discussion about this?

No, it's just that some of the comments is too bit too "much" and there seems to be a lot of redundant arguing, but that's just me.

 

[SmackAttack]

The lawyer sounds like they belong in Arrested Development.

The whole story sounds like it could be an AD story arc

Really does.

 

[marrec]

I have no problem with using whatever you want for yourself but is it just me or does this create more identity issues later on....

Entirely dependent on how the parent raises the child and what they're exposed to.

It's a tall task to try and shield a growing kid from the various media and other outside influences and, I dare say, would do more harm than good if taken to the kind of extremes this parents seems to be willing to go too.

 

[Laiza]

I have no problem with choosing whatever you want for yourself but is it just me or does this create more identity issues later on....

Again, all this means is that the child will confront these questions earlier in their life, as opposed to many of us who had to do it in our teenage or adult years. That is actually a major boon and something I wish I had the advantage of as a non-binary person.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I have no problem with choosing whatever you want for yourself but is it just me or does this create more identity issues later on....

I don't understand how having a child have more control on crafting it's identify could create more identity issues later in life.

 

[PSqueak]

What the hell is this...?

A very bad joke that person didn't even use correctly.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Wow, talk about persistent on choosing that hill to die on, lol.



What the hell is this...?

I like how he completely botched what gender even is

 

[Vostro]

Thought this was The Onion article, but it's real... WUT

 

[Playmaster]

I missed that you quoted me. If you take a sentence out of an article without surrounding context you can imply many things, how about the full quote.

It's not implying they do not know causes, but that it's complex and there can be many, singular or even overlapping reasons.

Yes obviously a child's biology may make them more susceptible to gender dysphoria. Exactly why you shouldn't play games with their development.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

Biological sex is not something you are assigned.

How in the world is sex assigned? The biological sex is observable

I understand what you're saying given that we have the technology and medical know-how for reassignment surgery, but human beings are born with a sex [that can be reassigned], you're thinking of Gender, babies are assigned a gender rather than born with it, but biological sex is something you're totally born with.

The point of this news is that the parents are leaving the gender part unassigned, which i don't see why people would have a problem with.

https://medium.com/@discomfiting/the-social-constructionism-of-biological-sex-307398094541

But those who claim that sex is determined by chromosomes (or secondary sex characteristics or hormone levels or gonads) must not realize that sex is assigned at birth not by chromosomes, but by genitals. When you are born, the doctors do not look up what your chromosomes are, they look at your genitals and determine it based off your genitals. The vast majority of us never learn what our chromosomes are, we just assume it based on being told that we are either male or female. A person can have a penis and not have XY chromosomes and live their life under the notion that they have XY chromosomes simply because they have a penis — and they could be wrong.

Genitals can be ambiguous at birth that do not meet our strict perception of what our genitals should look like (as in being “normal”), which is inconsistent with the gender binary. Our genitals are not unchangeable, which is also inconsistent with the gender binary. I think one of the most important things to recognize here is that if a trans woman doesn’t have a penis, most men still claim that she is “still a man” — which is inconsistent with the entire social construct of Biological Sex™. Under this notion, if “man” is a synonym for penis, but a person does not have a penis, they cannot be a man. So how could a trans woman who does not have a penis possibly be a man while not having a penis, the definer of a man?

 

[Audioboxer]

I did say 'apart from some medical cases'. 99.9% of babies will have a clear gender at birth based on their genitalia. I can't believe anyone would even try to dispute that.

Well, not quite, but a sample size of this amount should be tested again if it hasn't been

It's not known exactly how many people experience gender dysphoria, because many people with the condition never seek help.

A survey of 10,000 people undertaken in 2012 by the Equality and Human Rights Commission found that 1% of the population surveyed was gender variant, to some extent.

While gender dysphoria appears to be rare, the number of people being diagnosed with the condition is increasing, due to growing public awareness.

However, many people with gender dysphoria still face prejudice and misunderstanding.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

However, yes, the overwhelming vast majority of people born and assigned a sex will have the internal and brain makeup that aligns with their exterior.

 

[Platy]

I have no problem with choosing whatever you want for yourself but is it just me or does this create more identity issues later on....

Exactly the opposite

 

[GeordieMark]

I understand the parents intention, but this falls down completely as soon as the kid starts interacting with other kids. I can't help but feel like this child is going to have a tough time because of the approach the parents appear to be taking. I can only see this causing more confusion for the kid in the long run.

It's hard enough getting adults to understand this stuff, let alone small kids.

 

[benicillin]

I understand the parents intention, but this falls down completely as soon as the kid starts interacting with other kids. I can't help but feel like this child is going to have a tough time because of the approach the parents appear to be taking. I can only see this causing more confusion for the kid in the long run.

It's hard enough getting adults to understand this stuff, let alone small kids.

Kids actually seem a hell of a lot more open minded and understanding than the "adults" in this thread, assuming you're talking about the reaction of their peers.

 

[PSqueak]

https://medium.com/@discomfiting/the-social-constructionism-of-biological-sex-307398094541

I gotta be honest, i was under the assumption that an actual chromosome check was part of the whole process [of the whole health status of the child], im actually surprised it isnt.

 

[.JayZii]

I wonder if the parents will be secretly disappointed if their kid ends up cisgender.

Let's hope not.

 

[Hoo-doo]

https://medium.com/@discomfiting/the-social-constructionism-of-biological-sex-307398094541

So let's say we karyotyped every child at birth and assigned a sex off that? Would you prefer that?
Just curious, but can you give me a number on how many people are actually incorrectly assigned a sex at birth?

 

[marrec]

Again, all this means is that the child will confront these questions earlier in their life, as opposed to many of us who had to do it in our teenage or adult years. That is actually a major boon and something I wish I had the advantage of as a non-binary person.

From one extreme to another, if you ask me.

It'd be perfectly fine for the parent to explain from an early age what sex and gender are and what kind of genitals the child was born with without impressing any kind of gender identity on them.

This seems more experimental to me than anything else, with the high possibility that the parent is going to botch this up completely and end up raising a conflicted and confused child.

Kids actually seem a hell of a lot more open minded and understanding than the "adults" in this thread, assuming you're talking about the reaction of their peers.

Kids are sociopaths lets be honest here. 10 year olds, while open to this kind of stuff much moreso than adults, are also much less empathetic of differences and more prone to openly bullying and ostracizing based on even the tiniest of differences like what brand of shoes you wear. :-/

 

[Username1198]

The lawyer sounds like they belong in Arrested Development.

What a load of shit. And a lawyer who refuses to use capital letters?

Hahaha come on man

The lawyer's name triggers me.

who chooses to spell their name without capital letters?

what

Lmao I haven't even gotten off the first page yet

 

[GeordieMark]

Kids actually seem a hell of a lot more open minded and understanding than the "adults" in this thread, assuming you're talking about the reaction of their peers.

Not really. Kids can be cruel and mocking too. Especially when something is different to them.

 

[benicillin]

From one extreme to another, if you ask me.

It'd be perfectly fine for the parent to explain from an early age what sex and gender are and what kind of genitals the child was born with without impressing any kind of gender identity on them.

This seems more experimental to me than anything else, with the high possibility that the parent is going to botch this up completely and end up raising a conflicted and confused child.

Sounds like an average childhood to me!

 

[marrec]

Sounds like an average childhood to me!

This kid is very clearly not going to have an average childhood.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Sounds like an average childhood to me!

lol

this thread is literally filled with confused people lashing out against the parents because they are confused how to deal with such a subject.

"Hey, this isn't how I was raised! What horrible parents!"

This kid is very clearly not going to have an average childhood.

Based on what? Because it won't have societal norms forced upon the kid because of it's sex?