spazchicken
Member
I imagine there's someone out there who feels like being a boy on monday and feels like being a girl on tuesday or maybe even confused about which gender they want to identify as.
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First baby born without a gender in Canada
- Thread starter CoolOff
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kitchenmotors
Banned
I sorta feel the same way. But I didnt face any issues with my own coming out.
But I do feel that this issue is completely new and a lot of reactions, on both sides, are because its not something that there is precedent for. Im not a fan of people in here being overly aggressive and attacking others. There is a huge grey area here and people shouldnt treat it as black or white.
benicillin
Banned
It's cool, thank you for acknowledging that. It's not a daily occurrence for a lot of people, I didn't mean to be overly harsh in my reply, just that it should be assumed if you're going to comment on stuff like this that you've got some light background on the differences between sex and gender.
They, which I think is what...he...identifies with, are getting this pushed through on a technicality; since this was a home birth there was no doctor to put the sex on a form. I know of this person through friends of a friend and am not shocked at all about "fighting" this.
Sex is your biological make up, gender is something you can identify with. The child was born a girl and when the time comes that they are old enough to decide what they want the gender to be is when we should be looking at what the documentation is.
Sex is your biological make up, gender is something you can identify with. The child was born a girl and when the time comes that they are old enough to decide what they want the gender to be is when we should be looking at what the documentation is.
The ones who said "no" made up 20% while the other 26% were "not sure".
Obviously, this is not perfect, but then, in a country where fuckin' Trump became president, it is still a very clear positive trend.
Genderfluid people are a thing.
The parents are taking away the choice from the child. The child can't choose because because it is what the parent wants.
How does a birth certificate take away the child's choice?
Put M or F then change it later when they are older. A toddler isn't going to be thinking about gender.
I am transgender.
John Kowalski
Banned
Though I do think information about sex and gender should concern the health system only as it pertains to its private information about you and not public records like your ID, I wouldn't presume this perceived positive of letting a person self identify with no previous external impulses to be on either side of the spectrum to be a complete and unequivocal positive. Mostly because my own experience of conflict with gender roles was defined by the friction between my wishes and social demands, and with that friction I was given the power to make a place for myself where before I saw none. Which is to say, I don't think it's sufficiently reliable to make a good decision about how to help the majority of people figure out their own identity, and as such I don't think we should either discuss these topics about medical/legal assignment of gender/sex on that basis, but perhaps on the basis of privacy or the irrelevance of those aspects of a person to define their legal identity.
Playmaster
Banned
Skellig Gra
Member
I think part of it is we need a better vocabulary for all this stuff. It's still a little confusing to me with all the variations. People hear "gender" which is a word with a traditional meaning that people understand.
Captain Smoker
Member
Honest question, how much of an argument is this in reality?
Even if parents don't say anything (and I doubt that they are 100% unbiased either), the kid is going to get flooded by gender-stuff as soon as they can talk / think and they are going to get influenced by parents, family, friends, society, media and everything else around them.
So I'd like to raise the question if it's that much of their "own mind" and if that's much of a difference to other kids?
In the end it's up to them and in my opinion it doesn't really matter if you raise them as neutral, boy, girl or whatever because it's to the point where they acquire critical thinking and self awareness to decide.
And "neutral" isn't "neutral" either in our society because it's predominantly "boys" or "girls" and this is an active choice which affects your life. (which shouldn't affect your life in a perfect world, but reality looks different)
TheDarkLord
Banned
No it really is not. And you seem to be the only one here on edge about the lingo that is used. If i came out and said yeah i fucked a guy with breast and a dick, i would 100% get where you are coming from. But misunderstandings of Trans and Cis is not transphobic behaviour, in no way am i showing a dislike or prejudice towards them.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
No, but as the kid grows up, is surrounded by other family and friends who shower it in gifts and treats it like a specific gender, that adds up to being raised as a gender based on your sex and having expectations how you act based on how you grew up.
Like this
Till the babe has some sort of illness that warrants it, this is speculating and baseless to talk about. Again, I'll join the bandwagon and say these parents are dumb quacks if they don't divulge their baby's sex if a medical need became apparent; otherwise they're no better than parents who opt out of medical treatment for naturopathy
And yes, everyone does this for newborns. Go to any baby shower and you see immediately how quickly things get gendered you are literally born into it. I doubt any newborn girls are gonna have shirts with little cars on them as much as I doubt any boy's are gonna get onesies with flowers on them.
Sex and gender are different, but lets not pretend that sex doesn't defines gender for the majority of people and have those labels thrusted on them at birth based on their sex.
The parents are removing the identification of sex from the equation because people can't thrust their own pre-conceived notions onto their kid as it grows up. Oh, the horror!
Saying that you only have sex with women now after having sex with someone trans once, definitely gives off the vibe that you're saying that transwomen aren't women. Which is in fact transphobic.
gutter_trash
Banned
sex or sexe in many Romance Languages(Latin based) including French means what you English speaking folks call "gender"
Its been said several times on the thread but the baby has a bilogical sex. The lawyer story about doing things different just for the hell of it who is supporting the case gives it even more of a feeling that the whole thing was done just to be different almost trendy. I thought the title implied a baby was born with no male or female reproductive organs and some weird hormonal makeup
UnemployedVillain
Member
Who are these family and friends who are looking at the kid's birthday certificate and health card to decide what gifts and labels to give them? They're going to to based on what the parents (or the kid, when they're old enough) say
Audioboxer
Member
It's probably been written by BBC UK. When discussing male/female in the UK most people just tie everything up as "gender". Saying "sex" in the UK is still largely assigned to the act of sex, rather than a descriptor for genitalia/biology. I still do it and have done it in this topic even although I know what I mean before typing it up. There are differences between the general population and a journalist though, and it is a bit unfortunate the BBC have sex/gender all used interchangeably within a few sentences in the same article.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Do you feel the same way about babies being indoctrinated into the religion of their parents (setting aside the fact that unlike gender religion is not an inherent unchosen trait)? All babies are born atheist (since they can't have a belief in gods or lack of same due to not having beliefs, because their brains aren't developed enough to consider the question at all). Are those of you against this in agreement that babies shouldn't be baptized etc?
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Haven't read through the thread because I just woke up. But I sense transphobia already. Let me read.
Clockwork5
Member
Poor kid.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Why does it matter if the parents decided not to put a sex of the child on an official government form?
Why is everyone getting hung up on this? As a previous poster said, if the parents are going to hold the actual biological sex of the child back during a medical situation, then of course they are idiots. But I doubt that's going to happen.
They decided to make a decision and make it official, who fucking cares? If the government allows it, what's the fucking issue if none of the other things I brought up are problematic?
TheDarkLord
Banned
Thats making an assumption, not everyone uses the same language, i've not adopted the term Cis into my vocabulary as i dont ever use the word, so jumping to the conclusion that i dont see transwoman as real women is a stretch. If you want clarity then just ask me.
You said "only women" from now on as opposite of trans women, this means that you don't consider the trans women as women.
Not understanding cis and trans is one thing, but you didn't said "only non trans women", you said "only women"
yanipheonu
Member
I've heard shenanigans of doctors just reassigning kids on the spot when they have "ambiguous genitals", so I'm down with them just going with unassigned.
If they wish to have a specific assignment, it should be their choice.
If they wish to have a specific assignment, it should be their choice.
None of my business tbh, but there is a part of me that always thinks that statistically, stuff like this just has the highest chance of making a kid's life more difficult.
Like, I mostly try to give my daughter a menu of options and let her decide what she wants/needs in life. If she comes up to me and says "Dad, I feel like I might be a boy" I can support that. Hard for me to imagine she'd be happier having to sort that out as a 2 year old and having other kids be confused and treat her oddly.
But it's not my kid and outside my experience so what the duck do I know?
I wonder if this is what is happening?
Like, I mostly try to give my daughter a menu of options and let her decide what she wants/needs in life. If she comes up to me and says "Dad, I feel like I might be a boy" I can support that. Hard for me to imagine she'd be happier having to sort that out as a 2 year old and having other kids be confused and treat her oddly.
But it's not my kid and outside my experience so what the duck do I know?
I've heard of this too. That's a good point.
I wonder if this is what is happening?
John Kowalski
Banned
Which language has "sex" but not "gender"? French has "genre".
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
This is something that happens that a lot of people don't even know about. Which is why I was wondering if this was a case of ambiguous genitals.
This thread is amazing with the amount of people with pre-conceived notions of how a child is going to be raised because it's not going to have expectations based on it's sex thrusted upon it.
Like, "oh shit, I was raised thinking about throwing the ball with my baby boy. How are these parents going to possibly raise their kids if they don't tell the kid it's a boy or a girl!?"
Fancyarcher
Member
A 20 page discussion for this? I'm guessing most of the comments were of the "thoughtful" variety, right? Good lord!
Interesting development BTW, I'm guessing the baby does technically have a so-called "gender", it's just that it's unknown right now or something.
Interesting development BTW, I'm guessing the baby does technically have a so-called "gender", it's just that it's unknown right now or something.
Fun Fact!
In Germany it's perfectly legal to have an uniditified gender in your passwort, an X instead of a M or W. It's not the only country, by the way. A few other countries with that possibility:
Argentinia
Pakistan
Malta
Nepal
India
Yup. Pakistan.
No need to imagine that:
The gender-fluid generation: young people on being male, female or non-binary
What it means to be gender-fluid
Your logic is so backwards I have trouble even understanding it. The parents are taking away the choice from their child by not making a choice for their child? Because not making a choice is just as much a choice as making an actual choice? Whaaa?
A birth certificate takes away a child's choice because being officially identified as male/female is one of the defining factors deciding how people talk to you, what they expect from you and how society around you will approach and indirectly form you. Why is changing from "Unidentified" to "Male" or "Female" such a big deal, but from "Male" or "Female" to "Uniditified" so normal and good?
In Germany it's perfectly legal to have an uniditified gender in your passwort, an X instead of a M or W. It's not the only country, by the way. A few other countries with that possibility:
Argentinia
Pakistan
Malta
Nepal
India
Yup. Pakistan.
No need to imagine that:
The gender-fluid generation: young people on being male, female or non-binary
What it means to be gender-fluid
Your logic is so backwards I have trouble even understanding it. The parents are taking away the choice from their child by not making a choice for their child? Because not making a choice is just as much a choice as making an actual choice? Whaaa?
A birth certificate takes away a child's choice because being officially identified as male/female is one of the defining factors deciding how people talk to you, what they expect from you and how society around you will approach and indirectly form you. Why is changing from "Unidentified" to "Male" or "Female" such a big deal, but from "Male" or "Female" to "Uniditified" so normal and good?
Oh man, i heard horror stories of this too, a coworker once told me about someone they knew who, after a botched circumcision, the doctor just gave the kid an improv reassignment surgery and the parents raised the kid as a girl. It's kinda really fucked up.
I know it was not your intention, but this reminded me of a credit card comercial they ran in latin america with a dad on a toy store looking at a soccer ball and imagining his son growing up to win the world cup, then his wife comes by and asks "what if she's a girl?", then the dad proceeds to have the exact same fantasy, only with female players.
If that was the case it probably wouldn't have taken much time to get the birth certificate.
Skellig Gra
Member
Not sure what your point is? We can't have a discussion about this?
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
And they got one for the time being. Just because something is unusual in the legal sense doesn't mean it's wrong.
Exactly. I'm not certain why sex or gender need to be on a birth certificate, unless there's actually some merit to setting down one's biological sex at the time of their birth.
I don't have any issue with a parent telling their kid "you have a penis, and most kids with penises identify as boys, but that's not the case for all of them, and it's something you'll figure out for yourself. Don't be afraid to talk to me about your thoughts and feelings about being a boy or a girl, or something in between," etc.
I know a lot of parents who dealt with the issue adoption in this way. Rather than hide it until their children could understand, it was something they raised their kids knowing long before they could understand what it meant or the ramifications. No cataclysmic revelations. Seems to be the best way to go; and I think raising kids to be familiar with potentially difficulty concepts before they can fully understand them in order to educate them as they develop is no bad thing at all.
What I'm saying is that if the baby was intersex there probably wouldn't have been a big problem with assigning it as intersex.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
I just read the first several pages and... why are people taking issue with this? "Everyone has a biological sex" is such an outdated concept, the proper terminology is "everyone is assigned a sex" at birth. Who cares if the parent chooses to assign their child a genderless sex at birth?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Ugh. I am Canadian and have a health card and yes it's often used as an ID as well (the Québec health card is government-issued and is accepted as valid ID throughout the province), but regardless you're just splitting hair.
And you can "envision it possibly being important"? But can't come up with a single example? And this is what you care so much about, a letter on an ID/health card, that you are spending so many posts debating because "hey it might be important even though I can't come up with any specific examples where it would be"?
K....
..........
Transwomen are women...
Calling a transgender woman a "guy with breasts and a dick" is super fucking transphobic. Holy shit dude.
Biological sex is not something you are assigned.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
I doubt it would be easier if the child was intersex, I imagine similar legal troubles/confusion.
In the US someone was just able to get intersex on their birth certificate this year.
How in the world is sex assigned? The biological sex is observable
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
....???
How is it not?
Edit: if you mean it's not assigned by another person then yeah, sure, but... "assigned __ at birth" is common terminology. Though technically it's inaccurate as sex organs are formed before birth.
Genetics...?
Pattycakes
Banned
Skellig Gra
Member
This is what I'm saying with we need a better vocabulary for these things.
I'm confused because it looks like the post was saying it's assigned by another person.....???
How is it not?
Edit: if you mean it's not assigned by another person then yeah, sure, but... "assigned __ at birth" is common terminology. Though technically it's inaccurate as sex organs are formed before birth.
Genetics...?
EdibleKnife
Member
I won't argue that but I will argue that we'll survive it. The conversation will continue beyond this point. The misconception only exists because of the ongoing denial of personhood for people outside of heterosexual genders (i.e. "If you have a penis, you're a guy, don't call yourself a woman" BS) which I feel is much more pressing to confront as an affront to progress than this incident.
Influence is fine if it comes along with the knowledge of other options. This kid will simply be going trough a process that many people who go through a change in their gender identity don't go through until much later in life. People who are trans or non-binary are still confronted by the same influences this kid will be. They've confronted the idea of what it means to be male or female by mainstream society's definition but they've also been exposed to alternatives which are the key. This kid will always come back home to a family that encourages them to think beyond what society has presented them. They will be confronted with the idea of being trans, non-binary etc. where some people only hear those words and concepts once they are adults. And adults who confront their gender identity and make a decision, despite influences and doubts, aren't any less confident of it. That's because they've found what makes them comfortable. Even if the child, in this case, deals with outside influences, as long as they don't see them as a strict narrow road and are comfortable with the choice they make in the end, the fact that influences outside of their parents exist makes little difference that it was still a personal choice.
I understand what you're saying given that we have the technology and medical know-how for reassignment surgery, but human beings are born with a sex [that can be reassigned], you're thinking of Gender, babies are assigned a gender rather than born with it, but biological sex is something you're totally born with.
The point of this news is that the parents are leaving the gender part unassigned, which i don't see why people would have a problem with.
I'm pretty sure he was using that as an example of something he could potentially say that would be problematic and thus justify outrage.