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First baby born without a gender in Canada
- Thread starter CoolOff
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NoblesseOblige
Banned
I carried a decimal point wrong. Sue me. Now explain how it makes the point any different? Or can't you.
Impeccable
Member
Let kids be kids to be honest. If it comes up when they are older like five just explain things in simple terms. It isn't as complex as grown adults make it seems to be.
Audioboxer
Member
The crux of that is it depends on how you look at it. A doctor assigns biological sex based on genitals, not on feelings or wanting to force their belief/social constructs on a baby. It's done via observation and our understandings on biology/primates. The parent(s) here have decided they want the baby to be undetermined. Your argument is in saying to go with undetermined it means no choice has been made, but ultimately, when a child is born some sort of choice is going to be made because ethically, socially and legally we do things such as assign sex, give a name, have a certificate and register a baby as a new citizen of the country. There is no complete blank slate for any baby. A lot of things from the second you are conceived and began to grow as a fetus get decided for you. On birth it can be argued what we do is observe, take note and then life truly begins.
As I said above, when things aren't what they seem is when we have to diagnose, treat and offer support.
Did you stop reading mid sentence? The birth certificate documents whats observable, if you ignore that it's entirely pointless. Should parents also be allowed to choose the birthday as "undetermined"?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
How is it dictating to not assign a child a gender but not when you do?
Weight is a physical characteristic. Gender is not.
What a strange thing to do. I hope the kid is in a healthy environment. Just because the parents are a certain way doesn't mean it should be forced on a child. The priority must be on the child's well-being and opportunity, not the parents pronoun or gender identity.
When will technology and government allow both genders in one body? Waiting for the first family where the parents are the same person and are neither male or female.
When will technology and government allow both genders in one body? Waiting for the first family where the parents are the same person and are neither male or female.
And sex is
I am talking about the sex. Gender is not assigned at birth if the parents don't decide to do so.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Very good. Where did I say anything about sex?
Explore the comment string. It began with a statement on gender. Not Sex.
Whatever is on the birth certificate is literally only a physical characteristic
Sorry for the late reply but, essentially, by allowing sex and gender to be interchangeable on legal documents (i.e. birth certificates and the like) they will, in the eyes of the law, be the same entity. This will help anti-trans asswipes trying to push through their shitty laws as it will allow them, with legal precedence, to make the argument that one's sex and one's gender are the exact same thing.
Ever heard the argument "If it's got a penis..."? The difference between sex and gender is still a thing many, many people are yet to learn; and now ignorant people have a heavily publicised example of that difference not mattering at all. Why even have a difference at all when you can just choose to put "undefined" on a legal birth certificate/medical card under "sex" for someone who isn't medically so? As I've said, the motives behind it are great, but the alt-right don't see it that way and they love a good bit of definition breaking from the left to throw into their propaganda.
Essentially; putting the U in the sex column is both wrong and goes against the definitions social science has tried to hammer in for so long.
The article you posted is very strange. At no point does it ever contradict this passage it contains:
In fact, it goes on to state that in the 1990s:
The fact that it's just one of many genes necessary for maleness is obvious - the genetic code is full of important information that interlinks to build a human. But the important point here is that without the Y chromosone the development of male gonads is impossible. And from male gonads comes the extra testosterone in puberty that causes male secondary sex characteristic development and so on... So the Y chromosome is essential, and thus the binary is real.
And yet this is 'the last gasp of the sex chromosome theory'? Bizarre.
The rest of the article is just looking at cultural reaction to these scientific discoveries and how they affected societal gender practices rather than establishing if they're inaccurate, if the binary is wrong. When it does tackle science it's rather poor - the comparison to the genetic code of a bloody platypus is rather irrelevant to what we actually know about human genetics. We don't have to guess how human genes work based on other mammals - we have a decent knowledge base of the human genetic code, such as that SRY gene mentioned above.
So nothing here contradicts the binary at all...
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Because I've already made plenty of posts in this thread about how sex isn't just sex and people treat sex and gender in a very intertwined way. The parents wanted to avoid that, so they are going to a rather extreme way in order to ensure that.
So yes, they are doing something based on their beliefs, that is going to effect their kid. However, that argument strikes me as a "being intolerant of my intolerance" logical fallacy.
If we want to talk about how they can just go around the topic and raise their kid to be genderless, we need to talk about why they are going around the topic. They are going around the topic because doing such a thing is viewed as "wrong" and "going to fuck up the kid".
Someone has to take the plunge and attempt to alter social norms, and in a situation like this case law is important if other families have similar view points and want to follow similar action.
I'm not sure what that means in the context of actually raising a child though. They start differentiating sex waaaaay before 5.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I'm not even sure if you read my post you initially responded to because you seem to be arguing a completely different point.
The fact that the article refers to Ancient Egypt as "Mesopotamia" in its opening words says it all.
So you're not opposed to physicians determining the sex at birth? I figured you felt as if it's somehow an outdated thing that we should just abandon altogether.
Sex is a physical characteristic that is documented at birth. Gender is never dictated unless the parents do so.
Who argued that gender is physical? I dont see that in the comment string.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
No. No one is saying you are terrible parents who risk screwing up your child.
What they're saying is that NOT doing what you are doing (raising your child as a boy, vs raising them as gender-neutral) is also not an inherently terribly damaging thing that will screw them up for life, unlike what many are claiming in this thread. Without evidence, too.
I really don't see the need there to go through law. Also consider that they're actual goal is to completely abolish the sex line from the birth certificate, as if it was impossible to ever observe.
Chromosomes are also a physical trait.
If someone is intersex that's also physical observable
I hate that every time I log on to neo gaf dot com, i see "first baby born with a..." and every time, I click on the link with my morbid curiosity getting me thinking it's a different thread about some new human baby missing a body part
every time i'm disappointed it's just about dumb people who don't understand the importance of medical personnel needing to know how your body works
every time i'm disappointed it's just about dumb people who don't understand the importance of medical personnel needing to know how your body works
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
There are variants too. XXY, XYY, XXX, and others...
I think the dumb people are those who refuse to understand that medical personnel can examine bodies and figure out that information in a few secs and don't need it to be on an ID...
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Considering a lot of what we know about gender studies and what people have said in the field, I don't think this is exactly a bad thing. If people didn't raise their kids under preconceived notions, and kids didn't grow up in environments that expect things out of them because of uncontrollable circumstances, then I think people would be far better off in their child hood and creating identities they are comfortable with.
Impeccable
Member
I think a doctor might be able to figure it out. Somehow.
I doubt it's the birth certificate which makes parents treat their kid with a vagina like a girl
You can achieve that kind of society while leaving the certificate just as it is
boiled goose
good with gravy
Sex at birth is different from gender identity I thought.
Are there any reasons why sex/gender is used as an identifier?
Are there any reasons why sex/gender is used as an identifier?
Two tumblr posts, one written by 'genderbitch'. Both struggling to post actual sources for their claims.
I appreciate any kind of 'evidence' but this certainly is stretching the definition a bit.
If there's this enormous ambiguity in the definition of the biological sex of humans, there should be some actual research on the topic.
The only thing that comes to mind is precautions against kidnapping, but even then it's only a 50/50 shot.
As has been pointed out many times now, your sex can have a significant impact in what medical treatment works and doesn't
Record keeping is also important, knowing how many women are in a country that can have children etc.
People are talking about the first three elements when they discuss the sexual binary (and I suppose the fifth too). And on that score the vast majority of people fall as either male or female on all three. (1 in 500 means about 99.8% of people aren't intersex).
Obviously as we grow and develop people can have differing levels of hormones, differing sex characteristics, people can have hormonal disorders etc. No different from how some people are very short, some are very tall. Outliers exist with everything, including sex characteristics. But when you're talking about how much facial hair a person has or how wide their shoulders are then you've simply broadened the criteria as to what makes a biological male to a ludicrous extent in order to ignore the basic biological framework that sex is based upon.
Yes, a man might be low test without much / any facial hair, but if he has XY chromosomes, male genitals and gonads, he's biologically male. That's how the vast majority of humanity understand things. The fact that some biological males are less typically manly than others due to whatever reasons - hormones or otherwise - does nothing to prevent the 99.8% nature of the duality of the sexes.
And this.
I mean, the post contains this:
If you shout it enough you don't need research.
Ah, sorry. This thread is tough, because it has about 3 or 4 cross-conversations and a few people who also seem to be reading replies from one conversation and assuming it was directed at them and their conversation.
Honestly, it doesn't see, that realistic to me to assume that someone would be treated incorrectly based in their birth certificate. Maybe I just don't know the profession well enough, but it's not like you even HAVE a birth certificate until after you've left the hospital.
Audioboxer
Member
Parents can raise their children just like that without the need to abolish sex off a birth certificate. It's an argument of low expectations for a parent to say they cannot begin their journey of nurturing and raising their child until the doctors and hospitals cannot assign sex at birth, or reassign in the future for instances where it's applicable (such as Gender dysphoria where a patient may want to undergo sex-reassignment surgery/treatment). As I said to the poster above a lot of what happens in the womb and what makes up humans as a species is by definition, NOT a clean slate, and NOT a carousel of choice. Lots of things get chosen for you through your development/creation. No one pops out and gets met with the Fallout 4 character creation screen. I know that is a bit insensitive to word it that way, but until the day way in the future, our species falls down ethically and starts producing "designer babies", randomisation/chance takes care of many things for you before you are born. Your sex being one of those things. Things can get complicated in the womb, but we know that there are thousands of things that can not end up going as expected with the development of a baby. That's what it is to be human and why we should show compassion and love to all life, no matter what. There are still realities around where our species evolved from and what makes up human beings.
Hence why many will argue the so-called social constructs these parent(s) want to avoid are done by nurturing, education and upbringing. Not by trying to murky the waters on biology/understandings of our species.
That's true. Maybe just do away with it all together. It really doesn't matter TBH. I haven't looked at my birth certificate in a while, don't know what else is on there.
But I think traditionally it was a way to ID people. You could look at someone and see if they were male or female. same as height or eye colour etc... Another hoop in proving you are who you are. But that's looking to be an obsolete way of IDing someone now. There might be other reasons why it's on there, not sure.
AmaterasuOkami076
Member
"Ok, its time for an education. Its not entirely your fault youre utterly ignorant since the medical industrial complex AND the hatefilled society in which we all live both actively seek to reinforce the binary at any and all costs and purposefully keep people ill-informed and misinformed about the realities of biology. But after I take valuable time out of my evening to educate you on how utterly biased and flawed the modern concept of biological sex is you no longer have an excuse and choosing to continue to cleave to your bullshit will officially become proof that you are nothing more than a bigotted asshole."
I struggled to read past this attitude. Education on this subject is important, but I can see this doing more harm than good.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
That's done by a census which is not done by counting birth certificates.
There are only like two or three things a birth certificate is actually used for in terms of sex
1) Signing up for schools
2) Sports
3) Gender Identification
4) Drivers License (in some cases, which can also easily have gender changed by a form depending on your state)
Nobody is looking at your birth certificate for medical identification.
Don't give it the honour of calling it 'education'. It's just a delusional rant, it's flat-earther, anti-vaxxer stuff. It's nonsense.
The news title seems politically inflammatory. Babies have been born "genderless" before as intersex babies. The mother in this case is just choosing to ignore the gender and sex for paperwork purpose, but it wasn't actually born without one. It's all rather silly, and honestly the government should stick to fact and list the sex for medical purposes.
Yes that's fair enough. But if you don't record it on you birth cert it's not really much of a leap to think it won't be recorded elsewhere.
King Tubby
Member
What kind of a monster doesn't spell their own name with capital letters?
AmaterasuOkami076
Member
This is partly what I mean. The attitude will just surely push people new to the subject to thinking among the lines of "this person is nuts, this validates my previous beliefs of a strictly binary gender society"
You're saying there's no harm, but you seem to have used the entire population of the world. Do you seriously think you this is a good idea in many countries?
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Sure, and one could easily argue that the state forcing sex assignment on birth and in turn causing gender assignment is unreasonable.
I don't really think the BC thing is that important in this case, even if the parents are fighting it and view it as a larger issue.