Support NeoGAF

[Audioboxer]

Other countries already don't document sex on a birth certificate, such as Argentina:


Blincoe E. Sex markers on birth certificates: Replacing the medical model with self-identification. Victoria University of Wellington Law Review. 2015;46(1):57-83.

That's not what it says?

http://tgeu.org/argentina-gender-identity-law/

Where Argentina seems to be different is they allow someone over the age of 18 to amend their birth certificate without the lengths other places may require. Such as the UK which requires gender dysphoria to be diagnosed

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/policy-guidelines.aspx

Which is somewhere I do see merit in there being debate because without a doubt I can imagine some of the countries with "stricter" processes are far more humiliating, time consuming or unnecessary.

 

[Whitephantomzx]

i dont understand the child is gonna realize either way what his/her sex is people will still gender him/her acting like it dosent exist dosent help the child wouldn't it be better to just expose the child to everything equally until its ready choose be more simpler than try to hide it

 

[Curt Baboon]

.

Jesus, really...?

1. I was making fun of the lawyer's dumb, noncapitalized name because it is indeed very dumb and I am bored on a message board.

2. I guess making a dumb joke about a genderless BABY having an account on a website obsessed with gender politics is somehow an affront to the LGBTQ community now?

3. The height comment was a response to the guy saying that not knowing someone's height is a non-factor. Somehow, this harmless joke completely unrelated to anything also became a statement on the struggles of trans people while I wasn't looking; apparently.

But nevermind all that, please keep telling me what I really meant to say with those zingers.

 

[protomouse]

I just don't see the practicality of it. Society isn't going to respect the kid's genderlessness even if it says so on the birth certificate. The mother will be fighting this at every instance.

 

[nekkid]

Maybe she sees all the people who capitalize their names to feel like big, awesome important people in the universe who can Make A Difference as snowflakes.

Sure, deep down she might just be trying to stand out for the sake of standing out, or she could be sincerely rejecting the idea that a name should be anything other than a way to differentiate between relatively-complicated organisms that communicate, instead of a means of glorifying human self-importance.

You can't be serious...

It's nothing to do with self-importance. Hell, it's not about human names. It's about rules of grammar. Proper nouns start with a capital, if you're a human, a dog, a country, or a damned historical building.

And yet correct grammar is now somehow oppressive. Amazing.

 

[Jenov]

I'm sure this child's doctor will know if they were born male or female, this is all more a matter of keeping it off of public record, which is fine and hurts nobody.

This isn't completely true. The government may need stats on male/female for numerous public health measures or legislative measures. It's important to know the make up of your country.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

Jesus, really...?

1. I was making fun of the lawyer's dumb, noncapitalized name because it is indeed very dumb and I am bored on a message board.

2. I guess making a dumb joke about a genderless BABY having an account on a website obsessed with gender politics is somehow an affront to the LGBTQ community now?

3. The height comment was a response to the guy saying that not knowing someone's height is a non-factor. Somehow, this harmless joke completely unrelated to anything also became a statement on the struggles of trans people while I wasn't looking; apparently.

But nevermind all that, please keep telling me what I really meant to say with those zingers.

Drive-by shitposts show a lack of concern. If you really want to engage in the conversation, then at least write something more nuanced. The most nuanced thing you've written in this thread is to defend your shitposts.

That's not what it says?

http://tgeu.org/argentina-gender-identity-law/

Where Argentina seems to be different is they allow someone over the age of 18 to amend their birth certificate without the lengths other places may require. Such as the UK which requires gender dysphoria to be diagnosed

My apologies, I was skimming through my source and didn't see that while reading through it.

 

[Not]

You can't be serious...

It's nothing to do with self-importance. Hell, it's not about human names. It's about rules of grammar. Proper nouns start with a capital, if you're a human, a dog, a country, or a damned historical building.

And yet correct grammar is now somehow oppressive. Amazing.

Yes, it does have to do with self-importance when used in the context of humans, who made up "correct" grammar.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

The gender thing isn't something I agree with but whatevs, I don't think it'll cause any harm to the child.

But the lawyer not wanting to use caps in her name?

F
U
C
K

O
F
F

Isn't knowing the baby's sex (not gender) useful for a whole bunch of reasons? This doesn't seem like a very helpful thing to do.

But then how is the baby going to become a beautiful, unique snowflake?

 

[Whitephantomzx]

Maybe she sees all the people who capitalize their names to feel like big, awesome important people in the universe who can Make A Difference as snowflakes.

Sure, deep down she might just be trying to stand out for the sake of standing out, or she could be sincerely rejecting the idea that a name should be anything other than a way to differentiate between relatively-complicated organisms that communicate, instead of a means of glorifying human self-importance.

no this is just going vs the mold for the sake of it we sit rules of communication for a reason so there can be standered so that we can all understand each other when there literately no harm caused by this your just trying to make things difficult for everyone else and forcing your idea over everyone else for no reason and at that point why should i pronounce the letters like every one else why cant i add special symbols to my name

 

[Fudgepuppy]

And then you raise it based on it's sex.

That's what the parents are wanting to avoid.

How hard is that.

Well, does your birth certificate need to have something non-binary/neutral in the field for sex, for your parents to raise you neutrally?

My sister was very adamant about not enforcing any gender roles onto her children, but their certificates still said boy and girl, because those are their sexes.

Like, if the certificate is there to clearly state the sex of the newborn, then why drag gender into this?

 

[InterMusketeer]

Yes, it does have to do with self-importance when used in the context of humans, who made up "correct" grammar.

Honestly, we shouldn't be talking at all. People made up speech after all, self-important bastards.

 

[PSqueak]

And yet correct grammar is now somehow oppressive. Amazing.

She didn't say Correct grammar was oppressive, she said she's doing it specifically to troll people because they losing their shit over something so minor is a micro cosmos of people losing their shit over more important stuff.

 

[Not]

your just trying to make things difficult for everyone else and forcing your idea over everyone else for no reason

Why does validating a new idea feel like forcing people who like the old idea to change?

Where does that instinct of defensiveness come from?

Honestly, we shouldn't be talking at all. People made up speech after all, self-important bastards.

I'm talking about essential communication through speech here. Capitalizing names isn't essential for differentiation.

We've just accepted that it's normal, so we make fun of people who don't do it.

 

[MazeHaze]

This isn't completely true. The government may need stats on male/female for numerous public health measures or legislative measures. It's important to know the make up of your country.

I somehow doubt that this one, or the handful of children that might in the future, have parents put a U under sex are going to fuck the statistics up so much that public health and legislation are affected.

 

[nekkid]

Yes, it does have to do with self-importance when used in the context of humans, who made up "correct" grammar.

If it applied only to humans, then you might have a point. Still a terrible point, but a point nonetheless.

But it doesn't. So this is absurd.

People are defending it, I still can't believe that!

She didn't say Correct grammar was oppressive, she said she's doing it specifically to troll people because they losing their shit over something so minor is a micro cosmos of people losing their shit over more important stuff.

That's really going out of your way to be petty.

 

[Kinyou]

Why does validating a new idea feel like forcing people who like the old idea to change?

Where does that instinct of defensiveness come from?

I mean, their end goal is actually to remove the sex from the birth certificate. That is forcing everyone to adapt to that.

 

[Audioboxer]

This isn't completely true. The government may need stats on male/female for numerous public health measures or legislative measures. It's important to know the make up of your country.

There can be some government benefits or even insurance benefits that differ between male and female (amounts/eligibility). A birth certificate is the form of identification which can spawn your passport/driving license and more. It's pretty much how you first get recognised as existing, and then that you are registered and part of whatever country you are born in for legal rights/status.

I'm going to assume a "health card" is more like a medical record, but from the article

Kori Doty is fighting to omit the gender from the birth certificate.

Birth certificates have sex on it, so you can probably chalk that quote up to the BBC messing up the article using gender/sex interchangeably.

I originally thought the health card was the birth certificate, but it's not? and it's best everyone is reminded what these parent(s) actually got changed. It doesn't seem to have been the birth certificate even although the article mentions that quote and most of this topic has been debating birth certificates (myself included).

 

[clarknova156]

Humanity was interesting while lasted. Later fuckers!

 

[Not]

I mean, their end goal is actually to remove the sex from the birth certificate. That is forcing everyone to adapt to that.

Don't agree with making that mandatory. But I have no problem with it being an option. Just like deciding not to capitalize your name.

The less things your parents decide for you, the better-- beyond informing you about how society was built along with discipline and preservation, of course.

I feel like I'm getting less coherent for a debate. Hungry. I should go grab lunch.

 

[billy beane]

I would never have a lawyer who spells their name with no capital letters. Yeah sorry learn to spell before you take care of my shit.

Spoiler

Says someone with a NeoGAF name with no capitals.

 

[Curt Baboon]

Drive-by shitposts show a lack of concern. If you really want to engage in the conversation, then at least write something more nuanced. The most nuanced thing you've written in this thread is to defend your shitposts.

And since when am I required to be concerned about this? If I had something more nuanced to say on the subject, I would have already posted it.

But I suppose I must be the only one not showing the appropriate amount of "concern"...

who chooses to spell their name without capital letters?

what

What a load of shit. And a lawyer who refuses to use capital letters?

Hahaha come on man

The lawyer sounds like they belong in Arrested Development.

Why does Findlay spell her name without capital letters? Is it some kind of statement? I don't get it.

That sounds like a top notch lawyer.

Honestly, I mostly wanted to start the thread because of the bonus bit.

capital letters are so oppressive

http://www.barbarafindlay.com/

All names written normally except hers.

I really wonder what reason that got.

Too bad Google and amazon don't respect her wish

I wouldn't trust any lawyer that doesn't capitalise his own name.

Capital letters are just another form of Capital Punishment! Wake up!

That was just the first page, by the way.

 

[PSqueak]

That's really going out of your way to be petty.

Yes it is, but i also found it funny and waaaaay better than "im special!", i'd rank her reason above people like Prince changing his name to that made up symbol.

 

[IrishNinja]

sounds fine, but damn this page is a mess

And bell hooks

thank you

 

[Kinyou]

That was just the first page, by the way.

I think I can see the appeal from a trolling perspective. However the last thing I'd want my lawyer to be is a troll.

 

[Aselith]

You can refuse to get your kids vaccinated too. A responsible parent wouldn't refuse to have their kids weighed either.

I agree but that's not presenting a public health crisis like anti vaxxing does. Parents are allowed a lot if leeway with kids but comparing decliningbto disclose height to anti vaxxing is silly. Anti vaxxing is a danger to be the entire public not just individuals.

 

[nekkid]

Yes it is, but i also found it funny and waaaaay better than "im special!", i'd rank her reason above people like Prince changing his name to that made up symbol.

So would I. But they'd both still be at the bottom of scale.

 

[Crossing Eden]

And since when am I required to be concerned about this? If I had something more nuanced to say on the subject, I would have already posted it.

But I suppose I must be the only one not showing the appropriate amount of "concern"...




















That was just the first page, by the way.

And just a reminder about why the lawyer does this in the first place:

My name is spelled without capital letters. People make many assumptions about why that is. Here is the story. I have always signed my name without capital letters. When I was taking a Master of Laws degree in 1990, I had letterhead designed and my name was in lower case. I liked it, so I continued it when I returned to private practice in 1992. What an uproar! Lawyers called me up to say that they had a vote in their firm about why I chose that spelling; a court rejected an Order because my name was not properly spelled; and the local queer newspaper refused for years to spell my name without capital letters.

I realized that I had a perfect illustration of how we react when someone moves even a tiny bit away from a norm of behaviour, even with respect to something that has no impact on anyone else. So I have kept that spelling, and I tell this story in unlearning oppression workshops.

They were exactly on the mark considering the response to such an inoffensive act. I'm sure the child will grow up fine considering children do in some ways have the capacity to be more accepting of progressive ideals than adults. BTW holy shit at some of the transphobia ITT...

 

[Arkeband]

We should have a dedicated thread to non-capitalization and its threat to modern society.

We're only moments away from babies named with emoji.

 

[MazeHaze]

So would I. But they'd both still be at the bottom of scale.

lol what? Prince changed his name to that symbol to get out of his record contract. That shit was genius.

 

[anaron]

who chooses to spell their name without capital letters?

what

Seriously the most pressing thing I took away from this article. Lol

 

[nekkid]

Who's crazier; the lawyer who chooses to spell their name with no capitals, or the person that hires that lawyer?

lol what? Prince changed his name to that symbol to get out of his record contract. That shit was genius.

Didn't know that. He deserves to be bumped up.

 

[Aske]

Who's crazier; the lawyer who chooses to spell their name with no capitals, or the person that hires that lawyer?

"My name is spelled without capital letters. People make many assumptions about why that is. Here is the story. I have always signed my name without capital letters. When I was taking a Master of Laws degree in 1990, I had letterhead designed and my name was in lower case. I liked it, so I continued it when I returned to private practice in 1992. What an uproar! Lawyers called me up to say that they had a vote in their firm about why I chose that spelling; a court rejected an Order because my name was not properly spelled; and the local queer newspaper refused for years to spell my name without capital letters.

"I realized that I had a perfect illustration of how we react when someone moves even a tiny bit away from a norm of behaviour, even with respect to something that has no impact on anyone else. So I have kept that spelling, and I tell this story in unlearning oppression workshops."

I wouldn't say "crazy". She's making a subversive, anti-establishment statement that she thinks is important. Now, I would personally judge this statement as "pretentious", and "unhelpful"; but I don't think that makes her a bad lawyer.

I wonder if the business she gains from those who appreciate the hill she's chosen to die on outweighs the business she will definitely have lost from people who view her stance on capital letters as comparable to wearing a t-shirt sporting an anarchist symbol every day instead of a suit.

 

[Griss]

"My name is spelled without capital letters. People make many assumptions about why that is. Here is the story. I have always signed my name without capital letters. When I was taking a Master of Laws degree in 1990, I had letterhead designed and my name was in lower case. I liked it, so I continued it when I returned to private practice in 1992. What an uproar! Lawyers called me up to say that they had a vote in their firm about why I chose that spelling; a court rejected an Order because my name was not properly spelled; and the local queer newspaper refused for years to spell my name without capital letters.

"I realized that I had a perfect illustration of how we react when someone moves even a tiny bit away from a norm of behaviour, even with respect to something that has no impact on anyone else. So I have kept that spelling, and I tell this story in unlearning oppression workshops."

I wouldn't say "crazy". She's making a subversive, anti-establishment statement that she thinks is important. Now, I would personally judge this statement as "pretentious", and "unhelpful"; but I don't think that makes her a bad lawyer.

I wonder if the business she gains from those who appreciate the hill she's chosen to die on outweighs the business she will definitely have lost from people who view her stance on capital letters as comparable to wearing a t-shirt sporting an anarchist symbol every day instead of a suit.

Finding business is the single hardest part of being a lawyer. Any niche is a good niche. If this kind of thing gets her publicity, and then the person reading that publicity realises that she's a hardcore progressive, then there's a chance that the read is a similarly hardcore progressive that may give her business. I mean, the first thing on her website is 'queer feminist lawyer'. It's clear that this is the business she's going after. (I'm not implying she's being cynical, it just makes sense for her to do so.)

Honestly if she wants to use lowercase, fine. It's whatever. But lowercase followed by capital Q.C.? Nah, can't.

barbara findley Q.C.
should be
barbara findley q.c.
But then people would really get upset that she was offending the legal profession.

 

[Aske]

Finding business is the single hardest part of being a lawyer. Any niche is a good niche. If this kind of thing gets her publicity, and then the person reading that publicity realises that she's a hardcore progressive, then there's a chance that the read is a similarly hardcore progressive that may give her business. I mean, the first thing on her website is 'queer feminist lawyer'. It's clear that this is the business she's going after. (I'm not implying she's being cynical, it just makes sense for her to do so.)

In which case she's very shrewd, and thus more likely to be an excellent lawyer! Regardless, if she cares about making that statement and doesn't have to compromise her career, good for her.

 

[Adam_Vania]

on the one hand, the parents can do whatever they want and raise their baby however they like. on the other hand our social identities are formed partly by us but also by the society we live in. yes self actualization is great and all but in the real world this will only take you so far. we all have to make sacrifices to live in society and the roles we have to play are never entirely defined by what the individual wants.

 

[Nipo]

I just don't see the practicality of it. Society isn't going to respect the kid's genderlessness even if it says so on the birth certificate. The mother will be fighting this at every instance.

Maybe that is what she wants? some people love to feel like a victim fighting against society even if their battle is totally self imposed.

 

[A Link to the Past]

genie pigs

 

[mcrommert]

Should be thrown in jail

 

[23qwerty]

Should be thrown in jail

why would you throw a baby in jail

 

[A Link to the Past]

Hey Griss, I see you're back! Responding to an earlier comment of you suggesting that "normal gender" is a better term to use than cisgender, do you in turn use "normal sexuality" over heterosexuality?

Should be thrown in jail

What for

 

[Jenov]

There can be some government benefits or even insurance benefits that differ between male and female (amounts/eligibility). A birth certificate is the form of identification which can spawn your passport/driving license and more. It's pretty much how you first get recognised as existing, and then that you are registered and part of whatever country you are born in for legal rights/status.

This as well.

 

[Audioboxer]

Who's crazier; the lawyer who chooses to spell their name with no capitals, or the person that hires that lawyer?



Didn't know that. He deserves to be bumped up.

I'm certain they hired a lawyer they thought would win their case (and she has so they've not exactly been crazy to hire her, and she's obviously good at what she does!), not because she makes a mockery of grammar. I mean you could rename yourself to an emoji and then make some grand case about how anyone now criticising that decision reinforces your belief that society is biased towards cultural norms. You can be somewhat right about something, but also still be being silly to make your point. Our names are heavily influenced by cultural norms, hence how naming can wildly differ from country to country, but most languages and cultures respect grammatical norms. Most if not all languages do so to be coherent and legible. I guess you could ask the lawyer if she's asked the government to change the birth certificate to lower case?

The points she is making can be and are done without a publicity stunt around her name. One could say it's somewhat similar to musicians who give themselves daft names to stand out, but that's often part of the performance/stage name. It's neither here or there though, a distraction to the genuine debate over things that really matter.

 

[old manatee]

It all sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Spoiler

The baby, not the lawyer with the aggressively lowercase name, who should be disbarred.

 

[Kinyou]

Maybe that is what she wants? some people love to feel like a victim fighting against society even if their battle is totally self imposed.

I wouldn't go as far as assuming that this person loves it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did this with the hope that this occasionally generates legal problems which then allows them to repeatedly make their argument about removing "sex" from the birth certificate in front of a court.

 

[molnizzle]

This is dumb. The birth certificate says "sex," not "gender."

 

[blu]

Really not fair on the kid. Just raise tham as their biological sex until they are old enough to make their own decision.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say this could be child abuse.

It is child abuse. The lawyer's name is the harmless side to this story.

 

[23qwerty]

child abuse... jesus 🙄

 

[Impeccable]

Child abuse? Oh fuck right off, come on.

 

[Ketkat]

It is child abuse. The lawyer's name is the harmless side to this story.

What's abusive about this? How is the kid being harmed?