Son of Cervantes
Member
Then maybe you should post an official retraction on your site.
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George Kamitani responds to Kotaku
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
Then maybe you should post an official retraction on your site.
Barkley's Justice
Member
If you don't got endz you won't be getting no skinz
And if you don't got money you won't scoop a honey
If you don't got cash you won't be getting no ass
And if you're not clocking loot you won't be knocking no boots
And if you don't got money you won't scoop a honey
If you don't got cash you won't be getting no ass
And if you're not clocking loot you won't be knocking no boots
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Because art is the most subjective thing.
shysaursoft
Member
On this point, I think this is closer to the truth, rather than the knee-jerk "omg its 4 perverts" response.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Seriously, that chipmunk looks waaaaaay too young.
Pristine_Condition
Member
Go back to your twitter fans stroking your ego if you think that was a nasty post.
If my post was "nasty" then what is calling an artist a 14-year-old boy, accusing him of homophobia, and saying he produces "harmful work
Methinks you simply like to dish out the criticism, and can't bear a little aimed at you in return.
Gee. Where would we have gotten that idea? Oh yeah. The title of your original piece and pretty much all your subsequent writing on this subject, including your attempted character assassination of the artist whose work you think is so harmful. Or perhaps the content of the article, when you suggested the artist should not be hired by the studio.
Good for you. But we're talking about stuff that you wrote.
I understand that you want to deflect our attention away from that now, but I'm not going to take the bait.
The shocking amount of actual ignorance on display with this statement is simply mind-boggling. It's embarrassing, really.
You're talking about a medium in photography that was a rich old boys club for at least the first fifty years of it's conception. The medium wouldn't even be available to the middle class for decades. And for example, in photojournalism, a female, Margaret Bourke-White, wouldn't break into the field until after around 30 years of male domination.
You're talking about a medium that was also the most popular form of pornography for about 150 years, with all the free speech, sexual, homosexual and race politics that goes along with that.
Exclusion? You're talking about a medium where photographers have been threatened with death for their art, and many have indeed been killed.
You're talking about a medium which has produced artists like Mapplethorpe and Serrano for goodness sake.
And the industry still has problems with stereotypes. Men are usually thought of as more generally technically proficient photographers, while women are thought to be more sensitive to capturing emotion. It's bullshit on both ends, but it exists.
But the solution to sexism and exclusion isn't the exclusion of artistic expression.
encephalon
Member
So it was, in fact, a joke.
This isn't an issue where he used the wrong word that suggested something different. It's a pretty simple concept: if you don't like the two female characters, then perhaps this picture of 3 sweaty would be more suitable to your tastes.
If it wasn't a gay joke, then what was the joke?
Yes. In the context of this game, the auteur behind it and the diverse cast of characters she's part of, I do not see anything egregious with the artwork. I am interested to see what you find problematic about it.
djplaeskool
Member
That would mean qualifying the art style as a failing.
Jathaine
Member
I'm going to challenge you to do exactly that, please mine my posts and see where I do this.
And do you even know what strawman means?
Maybe you do but didn't understand what I said. I'll reprahse: Taking away an aspect of games and creating NOTHING in its place does not create diversity. The only thing that it does is stifle creative freedom.
No alternatives are offered, only the implied suggestion of censorship. There's no positive takeaway, only negative.
Yet people are being incredibly silencing and oppositional against this particular criticism (just look at the amount of posts in now TWO threads), whereas the vast majority of different criticisms in other threads is never subjected to this large a reaction.
FrostuTheNinja
Member
Core gameplay mechanics and visual design choices are a little different.
Don't know, I tend to avoid those kind of threads.
I get where your coming from. It's just that my personality doesn't see things the same way. Damn my personality!
It's funny you said the word diverse, when this drama is all about restricting an artist's expression.
I just feel like there should always be all kinds of games, that way there will always be a game out there to suit a person's taste. Artists do their best work when they aren't restricted.
Some artists have what you may consider bad taste, that's just a fact of life, and something you must accept unless your prepared to have other people restrict your favorite games because they hate something you like.
Of course freedom of expressions leads to women being depicted in all kinds of ways, in positive and negative ways as with everything else in this world.
I feel that if you want to keep getting a nice variety of games to suit your taste, you gonna have to learn to take the negatives with the positives, otherwise your just going to restrict an artist's expression, and the result will be a fearful artist creating generic games.
Haters focusing on boobie pixels will only make the boobie pixels famous, these boobie pixels will then thank you and jiggle their boobs all the way to the bank.
It's an ironic and useless tactic, how many more people do you think are buying this game now because of all the drama about boobs?
What the haters should do is totally ignore titty pixels, instead make more games with good female role models! People should focus 100% on supporting any game that has good female role models and depicts women in a way that they deem respectful, or if they are an artist they should focus a lot on making the female character be depicted in that way.
Of course this will lead to lack of variety of women characters, because there will be a lack of women who dress in a provocative way, or women that people may deem a bad role model, which would rule out all evil characters lol. But luckily there will always be developers out there who know how to have a good balance of different female characters.
I really think it's best the way it is now, developers can make all kinds of women, good, bad, provocative, evil, and people can buy or ignore whatever game they want.
OK I went on for WAY too long, I'm outta here haha.
Son of Cervantes
Member
Knux-Future
Banned
All of the issues are with the design,
A sexy design or pose does is not bad. There is nothing wrong with sex or sexual conictations.
That flirtation and sexual nature is part of the design as it shows in the actual animations. This doesn't seem like a story based game so any character is portrayed via the animation and design..her's is flirtation (hence the winking) and sexiness and a generally I don't give a fuck attitude (hence her silly walk cycle).
Maybe it is just me...but a design by itself is not harmful. Sexiness is not harmful.
That is where I have a problem...you are placing the weight of equality issues in an industry on a design.
That asinine to me.
I am repeating myself and I am growing tired of this argument....i hope this topic gets locked like the last one because it is rather frustrating to keep having to explain the same shit.
A sexy design or pose does is not bad. There is nothing wrong with sex or sexual conictations.
That flirtation and sexual nature is part of the design as it shows in the actual animations. This doesn't seem like a story based game so any character is portrayed via the animation and design..her's is flirtation (hence the winking) and sexiness and a generally I don't give a fuck attitude (hence her silly walk cycle).
Maybe it is just me...but a design by itself is not harmful. Sexiness is not harmful.
That is where I have a problem...you are placing the weight of equality issues in an industry on a design.
That asinine to me.
I am repeating myself and I am growing tired of this argument....i hope this topic gets locked like the last one because it is rather frustrating to keep having to explain the same shit.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Why this particular criticism is causing people to bristle has been explained to you and others numerous times. Say you hate it, say it makes you feel uncomfortable, say it's gross, ugly, disgusting, these are fine. When you lump in a sexual design with genuinely harmful concepts like gender stereotypes and enforced gender roles purely based on it's aesthetics, it gets under people skins, even if you're just casually implying it.
Schreier only made things worse with his incendiary choice of words.
entremet
Member
I have no problem with the criticism; but I don't think George should listen to it. I don't want artists muzzled due to political correctness run amok.
Chie Satonaka
Member
Pristine_Condition is on a roll. One more post like that and he'll be on fire.
Gameplay mechanics are not part of auteurism in general. Some indie games might consider them so, but not triple A games.
Bugs are errors in games. They are completely unrelated to auteurism.
Writers listen to editors when they find the editor enhances their artistic vision. Editors also don't write snarky blurbs and insult the author as a child.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
No, because I don't think Jason is speaking for all of us and in either case he started the disscusion in the worst way possible with the "14 year old" and comparing Sorceress design with DOA's designs and pandering are not helping his case.
I like Jason, and I also think he has the heart in the right place. But
Because this type of criticism are mostly root in objetive problems?
Well, there has been cases where shouldn't (or cases where is the editor doing the writter job).
AdventureRacing
Member
So my GF who is going to dress up as this character is she adding to the sexism? Is a woman acting and dressing in a sexual manner inherently sexist?
Also i'll remind you again that not all of the females in this game look the same and not all of the females designed by this artist look like that.
Why does the criticism get under people's skin?
I agree, but there's a limit to how much people are going to use the "14-year old teenager" remark as a platform for their opposition.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Do I really need to spell everything out?
Yeah that Skeleton is pretty creepy!
Darkmakaimura
Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
Wait? What is Kamitani apologizing for again?
Apparently no one in this thread was on the internet when The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker came out.
So all criticism is good but sexism is off the table. Gotcha.
AdventureRacing
Member
They aren't being silencing at all, they are disagreeing with that criticism. The reason this gathers so much more attention is because it's part of a much larger issue.
Edit: Also there have been threads about complaints for games that have reached larger sizes than this.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Are you being facetious?
Jathaine
Member
The joke he made that came off as an offensive gay joke... mostly.
The rest is just him explaining his position for the most part.
djplaeskool
Member
He apologized for the hasty Facebook post and resultant escalation of the issue (though he did thank everyone for the exposure). He then briefly explained the root of his technique.
People find it generally annoying to be moralized when they feel morals don't come into play. It doesn't help that there have been many jabs at the character design that are frankly insulting.
Pimpbaa
Member
Apologizing to men who think they are the voice of women everywhere.
Casual, unjustified, blanket accusations of sexism, yeah.
Do I really need to spell everything out?
The staff snuggling up to her ass crack really gives the image a coherent, effervescent quality.
RpgN
Junior Member
I'm afraid I don't have time investing more into this discussion where I know guys will deflect everything I have to say because it's attacking what they enjoy. This discussion, like in every previous thread, won't lead anywhere. Though it was good that I got to fent a bit because some people really have stupid replies and have straw arguments that goes on and on. They can get away with it for being about video games in video game forums, but those replies wouldn't fly and gain that kind of support in more mature mediums.
Very interesting, Impressive too.
Such solid art direction.
And as someone said earlier, there is a difference between criticism and slander.
Knux-Future
Banned
JordanN
Banned
It's comments like these I can't help but see a parallel to rape culture.
You know when people try to guilt women because of how they look?
So what if she's sexy? That doesn't make it sexist.
AdventureRacing
Member
You're being deliberately obtuse. People are not saying he can't criticize the game they are simply disagreeing with him calling the game sexist or attributing sexism when there is none.
It's not only males that have been disagreeing with him fyi. If you're not even going to bother getting involved in the discussion than it's a bit rich to take the high ground and just act like you're above everyone else.
Honestly I think the sorceress design goes a little too far. Her exaggerated breasts, the way the costume frames them, and the jiggle, are enough that I would be pretty embarrassed if my wife walked in while I was playing that. I also think there is too much focus on her sexuality and not enough on her ability (in general, but primarily in the promotional material I've seen).
However, I don't think it's enough to raise a banner against, or write articles over. If you don't like the game, or an aspect of the game, then don't play it. What's the big fucking deal? Should we only have art that person X likes? Stirring shit by writing articles over something like this is exactly what keeps me away from certain websites. I don't care that the author of the article doesn't like her design, or that he thinks some artists need to grow up. His opinion isn't going to influence mine one way or the other.
How about articles on things that people at least care about?
However, I don't think it's enough to raise a banner against, or write articles over. If you don't like the game, or an aspect of the game, then don't play it. What's the big fucking deal? Should we only have art that person X likes? Stirring shit by writing articles over something like this is exactly what keeps me away from certain websites. I don't care that the author of the article doesn't like her design, or that he thinks some artists need to grow up. His opinion isn't going to influence mine one way or the other.
How about articles on things that people at least care about?
Napalm_Frank
Member
Image is ruined by sharp knees tho.
Knux-Future
Banned
sexism or any ism goes passed simple criticism.
Those words have weight behind them that makes that "criticism" an attack on a person's character.
Those words have weight behind them that makes that "criticism" an attack on a person's character.
:lol No, no, not at all. I am definitely curious. As I've stated beforehand: It's okay to like things and it's okay to recognize things for what they are. So I was genuinely wondering why the criticism grew under people's skin?
Femmeworth
Banned
Every time I see people say things like this, I lose brain cells.
Publications in more mature mediums wouldn't fly with the downright embarrassing Kotaku article as well.
And yeah, those 'guys', deflecting everything! Where do people get the nerve to defend art that has been crafted with passion and vision.
Jathaine
Member
Okay, even so... do you think that overtly sexy/sexual is sexist?
That's what was said by Jason (and others who agree with him), that's why there's a problem.
In my opinion, a character can definitely be sexy and can have great focus on her sexuality and STILL not by misogynistic in any way.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Joining art criticism to subjects like objective harm to society is a whole different ballgame.
I think you'd find threads this energetic if someone in gaming media itself made a serious run at claiming games with guns should not be made because they really do condition children to be killers and desire to take a life with a firearm. That would be way different from typical "There's too many first-person shooters" discussions.
I think you'd find threads this energetic if someone in gaming media itself made a serious run at claiming games with guns should not be made because they really do condition children to be killers and desire to take a life with a firearm. That would be way different from typical "There's too many first-person shooters" discussions.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
They do, but how do big breasts=sexism? A physical portrayal of a woman does not equal discrimination against them.
It may offend or make people uneasy, but that does not automatically lead to the conclusion that the product is sexist. It in no way serves to actually prevent anyone from playing based on their gender. Perceived feeling of harm is possible in this instance, but I don't know if 'offended' necessarily means 'harmed' in this instance.
Totally agree on the concept, but people do double-takes and complain about Ivy's or Kasumi's bust size, especially for their hindrance to melee combat. No idea on the sales, except for the fact that it's a catch 22 in some regards with women protagonists and the cycle of fans, devs, and publishers/marketing.
The Sorceress' breasts do not have any significant gameplay role that I know of. The artstyle of the Sorceress, while possibly offensive to some, does not deny any player agency.
I agree that the promotional artwork is sexualized in a way which does not necessarily indicate an independent,capable female character, even if I don't necessarily agree with all of the specific issues brought up therein. However, perecption of 'sexist' and 'harmful' is also subjective depending on personal viewpoint. There isn't always an easy 'this is sexist and this isn't' line in many instances.
Because you're essentially being labelled as potentially sexist for not agreeing with an opinion/perception of an issue/argument, which has large negative societal connotations on your character?
edit: Knux beat me again, lol.