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[Boneless]

Games like Dark Souls wouldn't be what it is today if not for the difficulty. Yes difficulty floors push people away, but it also attracts people.

Just like the difficulty of the Ironman Triathlon attracts people, but also pushes people away.

I am surprised this is so difficult to understand.

 

[Boglin]

Cheat menus need to have a resurgence.
Some people might feel slighted though if they use that option and don't get their pat on the back afterwards in the form of an achievement or trophy.

 

[FunkMiller]

This argument only holds water if there are no other games in existence that are easier to play.

But... of course, there are. Many, many very high quality games that are not that difficult, and can fulfil what entertainment requirements davidjaffe or anybody else may have.

It's perfectly okay for a game to be too hard for some people to enjoy, because there are also games that are too easy for people to enjoy.

I think Jaffe's error here is to subscribe to a notion that all games need to be accessible to everyone. This is demonstrably not the case, as is true for movies, TV, music and books.

 

[WitchHunter]

I agree

Not offering options due to budget restrictions is understandable.

But saying your game "should only be experienced on Hard mode" makes my eyes roll.

Thats like Christopher Nolan saying that Tenet should only be seen on IMAX, or someone saying that some music can only be listened to on FLAC format.

Art is subjective so let people experience it how they want it.

It's up to the creators to decide whether they want "extra income" by making easy mode or it's intended to be consumed as is. Also their choice what setting and context is needed for 110% enjoyment. They spent 5+ years with the game, they are the experts.

Not everything is about money.

Games like Dark Souls wouldn't be what it is today if not for the difficulty. Yes difficulty floors push people away, but it also attracts people.

Just like the difficulty of the Ironman Triathlon attracts people, but also pushes people away.

I am surprised this is so difficult to understand.

People don't want to understand. They want to lament.

 

[Spaceman292]

I agree with him... out there are a lot of masochists ("enjoy an activity that appears to be painful or tedious"). The harder the game, the better it is...

It's weird that people keep using this word 'masochist', as if people who like harder games are sex freaks who love whipping themselves or something.

Do you idiots consider crossword puzzles masochistic? Is reading a long book masochistic?

 

[sloppyjoe_gamer]

LMAO his manbaby rants get better by the day. Guess he should move on to just playing mobile games. It's clear the rest of us have already moved on from him.

 

[SlimySnake]

I started playing Metroid last night. After six one hit deaths, I quit and have zero interest in going back.

 

[BuddyLaDouche]

So what is exactly difficult about kena? I'm thinking of picking it up soon, but not gonna lie the older i get the less i'm willing to spend money on hard games. Returnal would probably give me a stroke.

My Kena experience so far (about 4 hours in) is that between bosses there's a lot of Uncharted-like terrain puzzles that have been super easy... Then you stumble into some Demon Souls-level boss fight. These bastards hit HARD.

 

[Yamisan]

Kena? The game isn't hard at all on normal.

 

[Miles708]

Most hard games are boring. Soulsborne and monster hunter are the only ones I find engaging.

This. Difficulty usually needs a way more elegant design philosophy, and most devs are simply not capable of that.

Of course most difficult games are bullshit as a result.

 

[Portugeezer]

1. Not every piece of art/media is for everyone; shut up and play the thousands of other easy ass games.

2. It is definitely an age thing

 

[Mess]

Difficulty is subjective...

 

[GymWolf]

90% of modern games are cakewalk even on max difficulty level, i'm playing fc6 right now and it's a joke...

Why he doesn't play those games instead of having this pointless discussion about the few that actually offer a challenge?!

And lol at returnal or kena being his choice for what represent an ultra hard challenge...this stuff is easy mode compared to old games or some genres like ultra precision platforming, hard ass fps or rough roguelites...
Kena only difficult boss was the last one (and only because it's a long fight, no unavoidable attacks or bullshits in it) and they already patched him.

 

[michaelius]

There's nothing wrong with some games being harder. Not everything needs to target everyone - souls likes games found themselves nice niche as most famous example.
I'm not compaining I want arcade mode and shooting added to Flight Simulator despite thinking I'd rather watch how grass grows in the garden than playing it. It's simply product that targets different userbase.

 

[WitchHunter]

I started playing Metroid last night. After six one hit deaths, I quit and have zero interest in going back.

But it just crawls back and pulls your ego. You wake up in the middle of the night and think about that fucking bastard and new tactics pop into your mind. And you go back to burn yourself again again and AGAIN.

A few back and forths later you manage to subdue the friggin beast, his brain splattered on your boots, the floor, ceiling and walls. Some brain residue in your hair. It's a good feeling.

 

[Interfectum]

It's pretty sad times when games like Returnal, Metroid Dread and Kena are considered too hard because they don't roll out the red carpet straight to the ending credits.

 

[ethomaz]

Thanks heavens we don’t like the same things davidjaffe .

Games are too straight forward easy to my taste nowdays… more difficult games are welcome.

 

[Whitecrow]

The end of the world will come around 2050, and humanity wont have acknowledged yet that each individual is a different world, with different tastes, different needs, and different ways to feel reward and accomplishment, and different ways to get their shit together and carry on with life.

And certainly, GAF, end every site on the internet will still be debating whether something is black or white, giving 0 fucks about the grey shades where the the truth lies in.

 

[fermcr]

It's weird that people keep using this word 'masochist', as if people who like harder games are sex freaks who love whipping themselves or something.

Do you idiots consider crossword puzzles masochistic? Is reading a long book masochistic?

Before calling others idiots, learn the meaning of the word masochist. It's not only related to sexual gratification...

 

[01011001]

if you think Metroid Dread is too hard, you are a terrible at videogames...

the fact that we are even talking about these games like they are especially hard or too hard is a testament to the fact how braindead and handholdy modern games have become.
people literally forgot how to play videogames it seems. they need the fake danger of Uncharted where obstacles are literally fake and you can't even hit them if you try

 

[Esppiral]

I couldn't agree more with him, I would add the souls series to it.

 

[Mister Wolf]

I bet the creators of Battletoads NES would have no trouble with Dread.

 

[Killer8]

If you complain about gatekeeping, you are the person the gate was designed to keep out.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I couldn't agree more with him, I would add the souls series to it.

 

[TintoConCasera]

if you think Metroid Dread is too hard, you are a terrible at videogames...

the fact that we are even talking about these games like they are especially hard or too hard is a testament to the fact how braindead and handholdy modern games have become.
people literally forgot how to play videogames it seems. they need the fake danger of Uncharted where obstacles are literally fake and you can't even hit them if you try

Mi thoughts exactly. Haven't played Returnal or Kena yet, but Metroid Dread, while challenging at times, couldn't beconsidered "NES hard" by any means. Like come on Jeff, go play Super C or Zelda II, then come back and try telling us Metroid Dread is just as hard with a straight face.

 

[JoeBudden]

Completely agree with him here. I would include all the Souls and Souls inspired games too.

We can argue all day about whether games are art or not, but we can all agree they are consumer products at the end of the day. When you exclusively cater to a niche audience, you're only hindering your own sales and growth potential. You're gating off an experience to so many people may be unwilling or simply can't play games that difficult (ie work life balance, personal injuries, etc).

You can still maintain the integrity of a game with different difficulty modes. Just specify what the developer recommeneded difficulty mode is.

 

[Fools idol]

had you asked me 4 years ago I would have said he is wrong but tbh, now I have a family and much less free time I sorely dislike difficult games as I don't have time for them.

It's a weird one.

 

[Interfectum]

I couldn't agree more with him, I would add the souls series to it.

 

[Swift_Star]

It's pretty sad times when games like Returnal, Metroid Dread and Kena are considered too hard because they don't roll out the red carpet straight to the ending credits.

Kena boss fights are actually boring. Having to deal with trash mobs while facing a boss is cheap and boring, I can't be bothered with it. It's even worse when the game limits healing to one or two times. It bored so much that I decided to take the last part of the game in easy mode because at this point I just want to see the ending. Challenging=/=boring.

 

[EverydayBeast]

God of war is a huge franchise as an exclusive it’s successes is because of David

 

[Bartski]

Have you ever seen a rant about the difficulty of Super Meat Boy? It's not about those games being hard. It's about them being relatively more challenging than you triple-A average AND simply popular.

Just as Metroid is right now, Returnal and Kena were the hot topic of the moment, so when a game like that drops the whole gaming world

a) wants a piece of that hot shit of now; b) feels entitled to enjoy it just like everybody else on their Twitter timeline.

So what happens is people buy it without fully knowing what they're getting into, get their ass kicked and start crying that the game is bad. While it turns out it's just not for them. Should have seen tweet replies and mentions of housemarque first weeks after Returnal released, absolutely hysterical.

Publishers obviously market those games for wider audiences than they're made for, but can you blame them?

 

[HellforLeather]

Whats funny about this is Twisted Metal 2012 was hard as fuck. I never did get past one of the late game races (mostly because they are poorly designed shit, Jaffe even admits as such)

 

[TheMay30thMan]

He’s right, it’s not an age thing . He just sucks.

 

[01011001]

Completely agree with him here. I would include all the Souls and Souls inspired games too.

We can argue all day about whether games are art or not, but we can all agree they are consumer products at the end of the day. When you exclusively cater to a niche audience, you're only hindering your own sales and growth potential. You're gating off an experience to so many people may be unwilling or simply can't play games that difficult (ie work life balance, personal injuries, etc).

You can still maintain the integrity of a game with different difficulty modes. Just specify what the developer recommeneded difficulty mode is.

hiw weird that these niche games are beloved and sell millions

 

[Fake]

Was God of War 3 very hard? I beat the game like 4 times and is not easy.

 

[BlackTron]

I don't like it when a game is needlessly difficult just for the sake of being hard, and I don't like it when a game holds my hand so much it insults my intelligence either. Both result in a boring game to me.

On one extreme is artificial difficulty just from cranking stats. On the other extreme is a game that may as well be a movie.

I appreciate challenge from intelligent game design that asks something of the player. The first boss in Dread creamed me the first time, but on each attempt I learned more about it's pattern through trial and error, leading to a very rewarding badass sequence leading to Samus tearing it a new one when I figured out the right moment to Parry. When I start this game over this boss is gonna crumble on my first attempt. I only needed to stick it out and apply myself for 3 deaths leading to a far more rewarding win having deciphered the boss which at first appeared very difficult. Reminds me of my first playthrough of Circle of the Moon and Aria of Sorrow.

It's a very balanced and intelligent game design compared to Kena which in my opinion just tried to make the game harder by giving bosses tons of HP.

 

[JoeBudden]

hiw weird that these niche games are beloved and sell millions

Beloved by who? Definitely not the mainstream.

Sells millions? Sure, if we need multiple platforms just to arrive to 2-3m in sales per game.

 

[Swift_Star]

I don't like it when a game is needlessly difficult just for the sake of being hard, and I don't like it when a game holds my hand so much it insults my intelligence either. Both result in a boring game to me.

On one extreme is artificial difficulty just from cranking stats. On the other extreme is a game that may as well be a movie.

I appreciate challenge from intelligent game design that asks something of the player. The first boss in Dread creamed me the first time, but on each attempt I learned more about it's pattern through trial and error, leading to a very rewarding badass sequence leading to Samus tearing it a new one when I figured out the right moment to Parry. When I start this game over this boss is gonna crumble on my first attempt. I only needed to stick it out and apply myself for 3 deaths leading to a far more rewarding win having deciphered the boss which at first appeared very difficult. Reminds me of my first playthrough of Circle of the Moon and Aria of Sorrow.

It's a very balanced and intelligent game design compared to Kena which in my opinion just tried to make the game harder by giving bosses tons of HP.

And trashmobs. Fuck trash mobs in boss fights.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Beloved by who? Definitely not the mainstream.

Sells millions? Sure, if we need multiple platforms just to arrive to 2-3m in sales per game.

The McDonald's analogy strikes again.

 

[Interfectum]

Completely agree with him here. I would include all the Souls and Souls inspired games too.

We can argue all day about whether games are art or not, but we can all agree they are consumer products at the end of the day. When you exclusively cater to a niche audience, you're only hindering your own sales and growth potential. You're gating off an experience to so many people may be unwilling or simply can't play games that difficult (ie work life balance, personal injuries, etc).

You can still maintain the integrity of a game with different difficulty modes. Just specify what the developer recommeneded difficulty mode is.

Stop advocating the watering down of games for the masses. You want to see what that looks like? Go play mobile games. That caters to everyone and makes billions.

You want Dark Souls and Metroid to look like that?

 

[JoeBudden]

Stop advocating the watering down of games for the masses. You want to see what that looks like? Go play mobile games. That caters to everyone and makes billions.

You want Dark Souls and Metroid to look like that?

God of War sold millions and has a difficulty setting that ranges from casual to very hard.

We can find examples that support either side of the argument.

 

[Ristifer]

I think David would benefit from doing something actually challenging. Because if Kena and Metroid are representing some insanely difficult trend in gaming for him, then that's a giant yikes.

 

[Interfectum]

God of War sold millions and has a difficulty setting that ranges from casual to very hard.

We can find examples that support either side of the argument.

People are playing God of War in large part because of the story. Most people are playing Dark Souls and Bloodborne for the gameplay and challenge. You aren't going to see a massive sales increase simply because you can hand hold someone to see the ending credits of a Souls game. They aren't made for that.

 

[Spaceman292]

Before calling others idiots, learn the meaning of the word masochist. It's not only related to sexual gratification...

 

[01011001]

Beloved by who? Definitely not the mainstream.

Sells millions? Sure, if we need multiple platforms just to arrive to 2-3m in sales per game.

Dark Souls 3 is well above 10 million sold alone

 

[JoeBudden]

People are playing God of War in large part because of the story. Most people are playing Dark Souls and Bloodborne for the gameplay and challenge. You aren't going to see a massive sales increase simply because you can hand hold someone to see the ending credits of a Souls game. They aren't made for that.

People play games for different reasons. You can see from trophy stats that a lot of people have the platinum in the first 3 God of War games which require you to beat the game on the highest difficulty. Which is pretty hard (not as hard as Souls games tho).

I agree you won't fully appreciate souls games without the difficulty, but casuals would still get to explore the lore and amazing environments + bosses.

I can guarantee you there would be a sales increase if they made these games more accessible.

 

[JoeBudden]

Dark Souls 3 is well above 10 million sold alone

Again, with multiple platforms across multiple generations (the game was remastered).

 

[benzy]

makes sense why the first gow sucked

 

[WitchHunter]

God of War sold millions and has a difficulty setting that ranges from casual to very hard.

We can find examples that support either side of the argument.

Fn easy mode peasants with platinums. Should be deprived of any achievements. Or put on a wall of shame. : DDDD

 

[Interfectum]

I can guarantee you there would be a sales increase if they made these games more accessible.

Hard to say. These games gain notoriety because they are so hard to make it through to the end. You take away that allure of the game and it may sit in a pile of other middling AA games that didn't break a million.