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[AndyD]

So, how long will it be before someone comes up with a script that sends false click data to Microsoft so that they can manipulate the search rankings on bing?

I give it a week, tops.

The issue is that this was for searches which had no results and thus no legitimate right answer. In the wild where legitimate searches are run, you can't rig in the same way.

 

[Nerevar]

Best spin I've ever read in my life. slowclap.gif

Seriously? As someone else said:

Well, I'm a bit confused.

1. People search for (nonsense word), in some sort of high volume, clicking on a certain site a lot.
2. Bing Bar/Suggested Sites collects info that says x number of users click on this site when searching for y random thing
3. Bing starts to return said sites when said new term is searched for.

I mean, isn't that the purpose of collecting data on what users search for (opt-in)? TO see what they click on when they search for something?

I don't think anyone has stolen anything here. If this is illegal then something needs to be done. As it is, it just looks like they're using clickstream data from people who have opted in to improve the accuracy of their search results. Which seems like a pretty sensible thing to do, right?

How is that spin? This is just some random dude at Google trying to make a story out of nothing. And the only people in this thread who seem to think it can even be construed as "stealing" are the ones who don't understand what's going on. It's pathetic.

This is really no different than a google-bomb, it's just that Bing leverages the bing toolbar to impact it's own page-rank like algorithm on top of web links. So google engineers just google-bombed Bing (Bing-toolbar-bombed?) and accused them of cheating? It's so dumb.

 

[Souldriver]

Where is the lol smiley when I need it? Titles and descriptions are indexed from info on the website, of course they're going to be the same! Stupid author.

I hope Bing continues to grow, so we can see more whining from Google. Oh, and competition is good...

YAY fanboy wars!

 

[VALIS]

I find Bing superior to Google these days because Google is bogged down in those junk sites fishing for hits. If Bing ever gets really popular the same will happen to them, but for now my searches are much faster and more accurate on Bing.

 

[Mudkips]

Hope the EU slams them for this. This is anti-competitive behavior, plain and simple, abusing IE's browser share to prop up their search results.

MS is using IE users's browser history to improve Bing results. Nothing about that is anti competitive.
Going by your logic, Google modifying their TOS in an attempt to ban the practice would be anti competitive. They own about 90% of the search market and they'd be abusing their search market share to prop up their search engine, ad networks, etc.

 

[commish]

I think you are missing the point. In general is copying were allowed you could not differentiate yourself. The second you improved anything, you'd be copied. I don't mean aped, copied.

Their incentive started a long time ago, they place ads on those search results. And the quality and speed of the search is what brings people to their engine.

Yes, you could most certainly diffentiate yourself. People have been trying to copy Google's search tech for years, and there's a reason why it's still better than the rest. It's pretty hard to instantly copy what Google is doing, so, at the very least, if Google keeps innovating, then they'll always be ahead of the rest.

 

[Replicant]

I hope they sue the Hell out of Microsoft.

 

[Windu]

meh google copies tons of shit from bing anyway.

 

[twofold]

The issue is that this was for searches which had no results and thus no legitimate right answer. In the wild where legitimate searches are run, you can't rig in the same way.

The Bing toolbar collects clicks and uses that information to alter it's search results.

So, if loads of people search for 'neogaf', for example, it records that the majority of people clicked on the first result (being neogaf.com) and pushes it higher up the ranking for the keyword 'neogaf'.

The author used random search queries to show that Bing was scraping Google which is not the case at all.

It'll be interesting to see whether the system can be gained or not. Something like ubot could be used to click on a url every few seconds or so before changing proxy and clicking again to bolster rankings.

 

[aesop]

Google, you copied your image search results layout from Bing. Your argument is invalid.

 

[AndyD]

Where is the lol smiley when I need it? Titles and descriptions are indexed from info on the website, of course they're going to be the same! Stupid author.

I hope Bing continues to grow, so we can see more whining from Google. Oh, and competition is good...

Right, but I think each engine makes its own title/description when it indexes a page.

 

[kaching]

This is just some random dude at Google trying to make a story out of nothing.

Matt Cutts isn't exactly "some random dude at Google" but otherwise I'm not sure I disagree with you. Carry on.

 

[Walshicus]

Right, but I think each engine makes its own title/description when it indexes a page.

Only insofar as they grab those descriptions and titles from the metadata on the page itself. And several of the examples given [the one about eye surgery?] have *more* of the description on Bing than on Google.

 

[polyh3dron]

I can't think for the life of me why Microsoft has NOT hired Matthew Perry as the Bing spokesperson.

 

[TheOMan]

Seriously? As someone else said:





How is that spin? This is just some random dude at Google trying to make a story out of nothing. And the only people in this thread who seem to think it can even be construed as "stealing" are the ones who don't understand what's going on. It's pathetic.

This is really no different than a google-bomb, it's just that Bing leverages the bing toolbar to impact it's own page-rank like algorithm on top of web links. So google engineers just google-bombed Bing (Bing-toolbar-bombed?) and accused them of cheating? It's so dumb.

Buh? Did you read how they "caught" them? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding which is possible...How and/or why did Bing's results suddenly match Google's in the sting operation they pulled for gibberish if Bing wasn't copying results (which hilariously enough they didn't deny)?

 

[numble]

Buh? Did you read how they "caught" them? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding which is possible...How and/or why did Bing's results suddenly match Google's in the sting operation they pulled for gibberish if Bing wasn't copying results (which hilariously enough they didn't deny)?

They ran Bing Toolbar while doing the searches, and they explicitly agreed to Bing's terms of services which said they can look at the webpages you look at to improve their search engine.

 

[dLMN8R]

Buh? Did you read how they "caught" them? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding which is possible...How and/or why did Bing's results suddenly match Google's in the sting operation they pulled for gibberish if Bing wasn't copying results (which hilariously enough they didn't deny)?

You're missing the fact that they click certain results.

Google does this too. Obviously, if you have a ton of people performing a specific search, and then clicking specific results in that search, that inherently says "this is a good search result that people like", and it should therefore be weighted more heavily as a result.


Far different than what Google is accusing them of doing - simply looking at search term / result sets and copying them exactly.

 

[Vyer]

So this only works with a Bing toolbar? Or am I not understanding this correctly.

I'm using Chrome right now, no bing bar or anything obviously, and if I enter a misspelled entry, like say 'carousel', wrong, I get different results.

Am I doing it wrong?

 

[Cosmic Dreams]

http://www.neowin.net/news/bing-engineer-accuses-google-of-profiting-from-search-spam

popcorn.gif

and heeeeerrreee weeee goooooo~

 

[jvalioli]

So this only works with a Bing toolbar? Or am I not understanding this correctly.

I'm using Chrome right now, no bing bar or anything obviously, and if I enter a misspelled entry, like say 'carousel', wrong, I get different results.

Am I doing it wrong?

Yes. You aren't really getting what the article is about.

 

[Vyer]

Yes. You aren't really getting what the article is about.

So what's the best way to recreate this?

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Disclaimer: Love Google, mildly negative toward Microsoft, big on blekko (for now.)

Gotta say I'm disappointed at Google's spin on this, "do no evil" is truly dead. As the article points out, Bing's results are different from Google's, this "research" only got hits on 7-9 of 100 attempts, and perhaps more importantly, Google purposely used Microsoft tools to seed bogus search relevancy indicators to Microsoft. This isn't news. Microsoft uses it's tools to help build it's search algorithm, as it says it does, BFD.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

So what's the best way to recreate this?

You don't.

Google sent Microsoft fake search relevancy indicators, and Microsoft incorporated them into it's search algorithm. You "recreate" this by searching on "hiybbprqag" "mbzrxpgjys" or "indoswiftjobinproduction" on Bing through any browser, with or without a toolbar. Those terms are in Microsoft's search index.

 

[Rorschach]

LOL, until Bing is successful in becoming a verb synonym for the internet....they have failed

Lord knows they're trying...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfHuZ5qrYX4

 

[Sol..]

I put my hand up on your hip, when i dip you dip we dip.

 

[Sofo]

Never used Bing. It looks forced and the cheap alternative to my already familiar search engine. Also, really hate the logo as well as the name, dull and lifeless (maybe I'm reading too much into it).

 

[Walshicus]

Never used Bing. It looks forced and the cheap alternative to my already familiar search engine. Also, really hate the logo as well as the name, dull and lifeless (maybe I'm reading too much into it).

"Bing" is dull and lifeless while... "Google" [I presume?] isn't?

Cheap? Forced? Have you actually compared the two to each other?

 

[giga]

Official blog post, reaffirming their stance: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/microsofts-bing-uses-google-search.html

 

[Nerevar]

Official blog post, reaffirming their stance: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/microsofts-bing-uses-google-search.html

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/popcorn_2.gif

wow, I wonder how much lower Google can go? Looks like their trying to get their minute-long segment on the nightly news.

 

[Gattsu25]

Oh Bing....

 

[markot]

Why do people even use those stupid toolbars >_<?

 

[ThatObviousUser]

wow, I wonder how much lower Google can go? Looks like their trying to get their minute-long segment on the nightly news.

Lower? Telling the truth is low?

 

[Spire]

wow, I wonder how much lower Google can go? Looks like their trying to get their minute-long segment on the nightly news.

How DARE they give us facts. HOW DARE THEY!!!

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

I like those images. Sometimes I even find myself clicking through to see more information about it. A while ago they had a photo of carnivorous plants, which made them really awesome in my book.

I tend to use bing mostly, but I do have quite a few friends on the bing team.

I think the info is cool... and the images are less offensive on the main page. It's when you've done a search and there's a background image up top that I get irritated. Just looks super tacky to me.

 

[Hilbert]

I think the info is cool... and the images are less offensive on the main page. It's when you've done a search and there's a background image up top that I get irritated. Just looks super tacky to me.

That tiny thing at the very top? I don't think I have ever noticed it before.


if it starts bugging me now, I am holding you personally responsible!

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Lower? Telling the truth is low?

How DARE they give us facts. HOW DARE THEY!!!

"Microsoft’s Bing uses Google search results—and denies it" isn't the truth and their blog post only gives facts that support their side and ignores all of the facts that explain Bing's results.

 

[LM4sure]

How well is Bing actually doing? I don't know a single person who uses it instead of Google.

Not very good. I only used it for Bing cashback but now that that was stopped I never go to the site anymore. Google for all my needs

 

[Hilbert]

Not very good. I only used it for Bing cashback but now that that was stopped I never go to the site anymore. Google for all my needs

Bing is making money. It is not close to catching up to google, but it doesn't need to in order to make money.

 

[dLMN8R]

Not very good. I only used it for Bing cashback but now that that was stopped I never go to the site anymore. Google for all my needs

Luckily for Microsoft, your single anecdote isn't representative of the actual growth they've seen

 

[numble]

"Microsoft’s Bing uses Google search results—and denies it" isn't the truth and their blog post only gives facts that support their side and ignores all of the facts that explain Bing's results.

It's pretty sad that they used such a sensationalistic headline. Any GAF observer knows that people often just have knee-jerk responses to article (or thread) titles. Even posters in here thought that Bing was directly giving the same results as Google.

Anyway, don't the URLs in Google search results have the search query in them anyway? It could even be possible that Bing was not specifically geared at looking at Google, but saw that there were URLs with "blahblahsearchquery" that redirected to certain pages and placed them into Bing.

Bing is making money. It is not close to catching up to google, but it doesn't need to in order to make money.

Is it making money? I thought the Online Operations posted another $550 million loss for the last quarter.

 

[dLMN8R]

Anyway, don't the URLs in Google search results have the search query in them anyway? It could even be possible that Bing was not specifically geared at looking at Google, but saw that there were URLs with "blahblahsearchquery" that redirected to certain pages and placed them into Bing.

This is almost certainly exactly what's happening. All the Bing Toolbar needs to do is recognize that URL #1 is consistently leading to URL #2 after <X> is entered into a form. <X> being the search term that should return the result page (URL #2)

Doesn't need to be specific to any web site, search engine, results page, or anything else.


In fact, that would seem like a pretty damn elegant solution and something that Google would already be doing (though they claim not to use anonymous usage statistics to improve their search algorithms)

 

[Hilbert]

Is it making money? I thought the Online Operations posted another $550 million loss for the last quarter.

Online operations is HUGE with many projects.

Although I don't have any particular facts on bing in particular, just what I hear around the office here at MS and with my bing friends. I may very well be wrong.

 

[hamchan]

Cool article. Thanks to this thread I know to use Bing for porn. Google for everything else.
I think it's pretty shitty for Bing to leech off Google's algorithm but it's Microsoft, it's expected for them to do crappy things.

 

[dLMN8R]

Cool article. Thanks to this thread I know to use Bing for porn. Google for everything else.
I think it's pretty shitty for Bing to leech off Google's algorithm but it's Microsoft, it's expected for them to do crappy things.

They're not.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

This.

Bing is the superior porn searcher, Google is everything else.

I had no idea, but yes this is apparently the case. How the hell did Microsoft somehow code a superior porn video search engine, but that's it. lol

 

[Mudkips]

Lower? Telling the truth is low?

The trick is they're lying. You don't ALWAYS have to blindly support Google, you know.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

The trick is they're lying. You don't ALWAYS have to blindly support Google, you know.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I haven't even read the official blog post. I'm just going on what I think from the Search Engine Land article. And in my opinion, what Microsoft did was wrong.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

I don't have a dog in this fight. I haven't even read the official blog post. I'm just going on what I think from the Search Engine Land article. And in my opinion, what Microsoft did was wrong.

You're woefully uninformed. Google used a Microsoft tool to seed bad data to Bing.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

You're woefully uninformed. Google used a Microsoft tool to seed bad data to Bing.

Are you talking about the honeypots?

 

[ZealousD]

This news gives me a whole new appreciation for this video.