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[CamHostage]

(Not that this'll work, but in hopes of changing up the conversation a bit...)

There's an independently-produced version of technology like Nanite being made for Unity Engine users.




There's more video of what Nano Tech can and can't do (it's already functional in VR, which is a positive) on the developer's YT page:
https://www.youtube.com/user/KahlerChristian/videos

 

[Sosokrates]

the reflections in my example are of objectively higher fidelity.

It's not just the light, it's how the reflection takes into account the light rays being absorbed into the reflective surface, which is why you can actually see detail of objects in the reflection better than you can looking directly at the window, such as the window frame.



You're blaming that monstrosity of a reflection on the wind?

Yes... Ripples tend to distort water. So jokes on you bud.

What light ray absorption can you see here...

Its a yellow light from the sun shining through a window.,. Its nothing special, decent cube maps and probably other techniques last gen could do it.

 

[ChiefDada]

(Not that this'll work, but in hopes of changing the subject a bit...)

There's an independently-produced version of technology like Nanite being made for Unity Engine users.




There's more video of what Nano Tech can and can't do (it's already functional in VR, which is a positive) on the developer's YT page:
https://www.youtube.com/user/KahlerChristian/videos

Fantastic share. People have this false notion that only UE5 holds the key to micropolygon rendering but other developers will come up with solutions of their own. Imagine what these other studios have waiting behind the curtains. The future looks bright indeed.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Yes, there is technology coming which will utilize these new platforms in ways to deliver astounding new levels of visual splendor (and hopefully new levels of gameplay dynamics, although unfortunately, not nearly enough of the games we know of to come in 2023 and 2024 are showing much promise in that department IMO...) No question, there are steps to leap as new technologies come onboard. Every generation ends better than it started, and we already have some incredible glimpses of where this generation will be going.

What I am saying is that there are reasons why the tech of the future is not here NOW.

It's a misjudgment IMO to assume that these technologies we know to be coming in 2023/2024 games (some even in 2022 games, although frustratingly for all of us, not as many as we maybe assumed back when PS5/Xbox Series and the UE5 were first unveiled in 2020, or even when Hellblade was first teased in 2019) are overdue today. Many are not mature yet for professional production, and compound that with the extended timelines of games made today (and the further delays of COVID) and the legacy-spaghetti that makes "upgrading" not nearly as beneficial as people assume.


Horizon FW PS5 / PS4... are we missing a "generation leap"?

...Particularly the notion that cross-gen is "holding back" all the games for PS5 and Xbox Series, I generally don't believe that, and I don't see developers (not even candidly on Twitter/forums) making that claim.

The idea that developers are making their games shittier because they have to consider the PS4 and Xbox One ports, that's easy to say when pointing to some kitbashed, hyper-lit, gameplay-devoid, limitless "What XX would look like in UE5" fan 'remake'. In reality, however, the process of downporting a game or even supporting a reasonable level of scaling (your basic levels of acceptable min/rec requirements) is not new and is likely not the culprit in why next-gen games are not leaving their predecessors in the dust.


Tomb Raider PS4 / PS3... are we missing a "generation leap"?

SlimySnake is saying developers are LYING to us, that they could make their games better today but instead they throttle all technology that threatens a certain TFLOP count so that they can still let their shit roll downhill onto the old consoles and make a quick buck on two boxes. (And that even games that are shipping new-gen-exclusive, the developers limit them as old-gen games just in case and then juiced up the tech as best they could with what was left over.) I don't agree with that assessment.

(*Sorry Slimy, I haven't had time to properly respond. Short version: I agree on some points, disagree on many of your conclusions, question some jumps of logic/assessment but can't offer many existing counter-arguments since new-gen-only is agonizingly rare, but overall am feeling your frustration from a different vantage point...)

Why wouldn’t you agree on that assessment when these corporations are greedy, Obviously these consoles are capable of The Matrix Awakens level of fidelity, but the current gen consoles are still hard to find and last gen consoles have a huge install base…thats why HFW, Halo Infinite, God of War Ragnorok and many other games that were supposed to be next gen and show off the current gen hardware are cross gen… these old consoles are almost a decade old.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

(Not that this'll work, but in hopes of changing the subject a bit...)

There's an independently-produced version of technology like Nanite being made for Unity Engine users.




There's more video of what Nano Tech can and can't do (it's already functional in VR, which is a positive) on the developer's YT page:
https://www.youtube.com/user/KahlerChristian/videos

Yes I called it that this was going to happen..expect all major studios to follow along…

 

[CamHostage]

Why wouldn’t you agree on that assessment when these corporations are greedy, Obviously these consoles are capable of The Matrix Awakens level of fidelity, but the current gen consoles are still hard to find and last gen consoles have a huge install base…thats why HFW, Halo Infinite, God of War Ragnorok and many other games that were supposed to be next gen and show off the current gen hardware are cross gen… these old consoles are almost a decade old.

Counter-question: Why would I believe that there are not corporations out there greedy for attention in delivering "true next-gen" experiences in this competitive market right now if they were ready to do so?

Already there are games being made for PS5 and Xbox Series and PC and Switch but not PS4 and X1 because those markets are stagnant. Active gamers are on these new consoles, even with console shortages; with major franchises, there's still a base that is buying the yearly edition, but if you have a new product, there's a good marketing strategy to betting on the 40mil brand new consoles out there than the 200mil old Xb/PS consoles which are mostly collecting dust. (For example, Horizon Forbidden West was something like 70/30% PS5 sales, despite PS4 version being cheaper and quietly being a steal thanks to the free upgrade.) Granted, PS4 and One have been adding to the coffers in this most unusual console generation, but the idea that these older boxes are the only thing keeping game designers in business right now and that they're desperately clinging to the past to stay afloat is not the case.

So, yes, obviously these consoles are capable of The Matrix Awakens levels of fidelity. You can play The Matrix Awakens on these consoles. You can also see the limitations and early experimental quality of the engine in The Matrix Awakens, with its replication and procedural asset modification tools getting the most out of its current abilities, while also flipping back to traditional methods either on specific types of objects or (in the case of cars) live on the fly in gameplay. This was a perfect demo for their technology as it exists right now, emphasizing the strengths of Nanite/Lumen/Niagara/Chaos while keeping the current/existing weaknesses at a minimum.

Matrix Awakens took well over a year to make and over a dozen studios working on the tech and assets and optimization, all so that it could offer gamers 5 minutes of "gameplay" and then a sandbox to drive/walk around in. Duct tape and bubblegum are what tech demos are made of, and Matrix Awakens has really great duct tape and bubblegum, but you need sterner stuff to make an actual game.

You can lean more about some of the tricks and techniques used in making The Matrix Awakens (most of which would be used in making a "real" game, but the project's scope had to be limited just to get to this point of being able to deliver 5-minutes-play / 16 km2-sandbox from the tech deep-dive (although it is a deep deep-dive, so take it at your own pace.)



...BTW, yes, Sony and NVIDIA and others were introducing tech in the vein of Nanite a few years earlier than UE5 and some even beyond, but ask yourself: would Matrix Awakens have existed if anybody could have done it by now?

Would Epic have committed to this demo, for over a year of production across a number of partner studios, in a franchise it does not own and will not be able to expand upon, to deliver a tech demo which was built entirely on the premise of "Holy shit, now THIS is next-gen...", with little gameplay and no monetization (aside from the partnership of the licensee, however that money worked out,) just the promise of good word-of-mouth for its engine and these new consoles, all of that work... would they have done all that if they honestly thought somebody might have beat them to market by their deadline of December 2021?

Doesn't seem likely. Even with UE5 Early Access already out there and the consoles being a year old by then, Epic knew they had hot shit which was ahead of its time and going to blow a lot of people's minds. Matrix Awakens is of its era, but reality is still taking time to catch up to its promise.

 

[01011001]

Why would I believe that there are not corporations out there greedy for attention in delivering "true next-gen" experiences in this competitive market if they could?

Already there are games being made for PS5 and Xbox Series and PC and Switch but not PS4 and X1 because those markets are stagnant. Active gamers are on these new consoles, even with console shortages; with major franchises, there's still a base that is buying the yearly edition, but if you have a new product, there's a good marketing strategy to betting on the 40mil brand new consoles out there than the 200mil old Xb/PS consoles which are mostly collecting dust. (For example, Horizon Forbidden West was something like 70/30% PS5 sales, despite PS4 version being cheaper and quietly being a steal thanks to the free upgrade.) Granted, PS4 and One have been adding to the coffers in this most unusual console generation, but the idea that these older boxes are the only thing keeping game designers in business right now and that they're desperately clinging to the past to stay afloat is not the case.

So, yes, obviously these consoles are capable of The Matrix Awakens levels of fidelity. You can play The Matrix Awakens on these consoles. You can also see the limitations and early experimental quality of the engine in The Matrix Awakens, with its replication and procedural asset modification tools getting the most out of its current abilities, while also flipping back to traditional methods either on specific types of objects or (in the case of cars) live on the fly in gameplay. This was a perfect demo for their technology as it exists right now, emphasizing the strengths of Nanite/Lumen/Niagara/Chaos while keeping the current/existing weaknesses at a minimum.

Matrix Awakens took well over a year to make and over a dozen studios working on the tech and assets and optimization, all so that it could offer gamers 5 minutes of "gameplay" and then a sandbox to drive/walk around in. Duct tape and bubblegum are what tech demos are made of, and Matrix Awakens has really great duct tape and bubblegum, but you need sterner stuff to make an actual game.

You can lean more about some of the tricks and techniques used in making The Matrix Awakens (most of which would be used in making a "real" game, but the project's scope had to be limited just to get to this point of being able to deliver 5-minutes-play / 16 km2-sandbox from the tech deep-dive (although it is a deep deep-dive, so take it at your own pace.)



...BTW, yes, Sony and NVIDIA and others were introducing tech in the vein of Nanite a few years earlier than UE5 and some even beyond, but ask yourself: would Matrix Awakens have existed if anybody could have done it by now?

Would Epic have committed to this demo, for over a year of production across a number of partner studios, in a franchise it does not own and will not be able to expand upon, to deliver a tech demo which was built entirely on the premise of "Holy shit, now THIS is next-gen...", with little gameplay and no monetization (aside from the partnership of the licensee, however that money worked out,) just the promise of good word-of-mouth for its engine and these new consoles, all of that work... would they have done all that if they honestly thought somebody might have beat them to market by their deadline of December 2021?

No, even with UE5 Early Access already out there and the consoles being a year old by then, Epic knew they had hot shit which was ahead of its time. Matrix Awakens is of its era, but reality is still taking time to catch up to its promise.

we can't lose the overall picture here tho, which is: the Matrix demo looks like shit and runs like shit... just sayin

 

[CamHostage]

we can't lose the overall picture here tho, which is: the Matrix demo looks like shit and runs like shit... just sayin

OK, that's an opinion. In terms of this thread, however, that is not at all the overall picture here tho.

 

[sinnergy]

Counter-question: Why would I believe that there are not corporations out there greedy for attention in delivering "true next-gen" experiences in this competitive market right now if they were ready to do so?

Already there are games being made for PS5 and Xbox Series and PC and Switch but not PS4 and X1 because those markets are stagnant. Active gamers are on these new consoles, even with console shortages; with major franchises, there's still a base that is buying the yearly edition, but if you have a new product, there's a good marketing strategy to betting on the 40mil brand new consoles out there than the 200mil old Xb/PS consoles which are mostly collecting dust. (For example, Horizon Forbidden West was something like 70/30% PS5 sales, despite PS4 version being cheaper and quietly being a steal thanks to the free upgrade.) Granted, PS4 and One have been adding to the coffers in this most unusual console generation, but the idea that these older boxes are the only thing keeping game designers in business right now and that they're desperately clinging to the past to stay afloat is not the case.

So, yes, obviously these consoles are capable of The Matrix Awakens levels of fidelity. You can play The Matrix Awakens on these consoles. You can also see the limitations and early experimental quality of the engine in The Matrix Awakens, with its replication and procedural asset modification tools getting the most out of its current abilities, while also flipping back to traditional methods either on specific types of objects or (in the case of cars) live on the fly in gameplay. This was a perfect demo for their technology as it exists right now, emphasizing the strengths of Nanite/Lumen/Niagara/Chaos while keeping the current/existing weaknesses at a minimum.

Matrix Awakens took well over a year to make and over a dozen studios working on the tech and assets and optimization, all so that it could offer gamers 5 minutes of "gameplay" and then a sandbox to drive/walk around in. Duct tape and bubblegum are what tech demos are made of, and Matrix Awakens has really great duct tape and bubblegum, but you need sterner stuff to make an actual game.

You can lean more about some of the tricks and techniques used in making The Matrix Awakens (most of which would be used in making a "real" game, but the project's scope had to be limited just to get to this point of being able to deliver 5-minutes-play / 16 km2-sandbox from the tech deep-dive (although it is a deep deep-dive, so take it at your own pace.)



...BTW, yes, Sony and NVIDIA and others were introducing tech in the vein of Nanite a few years earlier than UE5 and some even beyond, but ask yourself: would Matrix Awakens have existed if anybody could have done it by now?

Would Epic have committed to this demo, for over a year of production across a number of partner studios, in a franchise it does not own and will not be able to expand upon, to deliver a tech demo which was built entirely on the premise of "Holy shit, now THIS is next-gen...", with little gameplay and no monetization (aside from the partnership of the licensee, however that money worked out,) just the promise of good word-of-mouth for its engine and these new consoles, all of that work... would they have done all that if they honestly thought somebody might have beat them to market by their deadline of December 2021?

No, even with UE5 Early Access already out there and the consoles being a year old by then, Epic knew they had hot shit which was ahead of its time. Matrix Awakens is of its era, but reality is still taking time to catch up to its promise.

Amazing stuff, they are moving closer to uses in Movies .. imo

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Counter-question: Why would I believe that there are not corporations out there greedy for attention in delivering "true next-gen" experiences in this competitive market right now if they were ready to do so?

Already there are games being made for PS5 and Xbox Series and PC and Switch but not PS4 and X1 because those markets are stagnant. Active gamers are on these new consoles, even with console shortages; with major franchises, there's still a base that is buying the yearly edition, but if you have a new product, there's a good marketing strategy to betting on the 40mil brand new consoles out there than the 200mil old Xb/PS consoles which are mostly collecting dust. (For example, Horizon Forbidden West was something like 70/30% PS5 sales, despite PS4 version being cheaper and quietly being a steal thanks to the free upgrade.) Granted, PS4 and One have been adding to the coffers in this most unusual console generation, but the idea that these older boxes are the only thing keeping game designers in business right now and that they're desperately clinging to the past to stay afloat is not the case.

So, yes, obviously these consoles are capable of The Matrix Awakens levels of fidelity. You can play The Matrix Awakens on these consoles. You can also see the limitations and early experimental quality of the engine in The Matrix Awakens, with its replication and procedural asset modification tools getting the most out of its current abilities, while also flipping back to traditional methods either on specific types of objects or (in the case of cars) live on the fly in gameplay. This was a perfect demo for their technology as it exists right now, emphasizing the strengths of Nanite/Lumen/Niagara/Chaos while keeping the current/existing weaknesses at a minimum.

Matrix Awakens took well over a year to make and over a dozen studios working on the tech and assets and optimization, all so that it could offer gamers 5 minutes of "gameplay" and then a sandbox to drive/walk around in. Duct tape and bubblegum are what tech demos are made of, and Matrix Awakens has really great duct tape and bubblegum, but you need sterner stuff to make an actual game.

You can lean more about some of the tricks and techniques used in making The Matrix Awakens (most of which would be used in making a "real" game, but the project's scope had to be limited just to get to this point of being able to deliver 5-minutes-play / 16 km2-sandbox from the tech deep-dive (although it is a deep deep-dive, so take it at your own pace.)



...BTW, yes, Sony and NVIDIA and others were introducing tech in the vein of Nanite a few years earlier than UE5 and some even beyond, but ask yourself: would Matrix Awakens have existed if anybody could have done it by now?

Would Epic have committed to this demo, for over a year of production across a number of partner studios, in a franchise it does not own and will not be able to expand upon, to deliver a tech demo which was built entirely on the premise of "Holy shit, now THIS is next-gen...", with little gameplay and no monetization (aside from the partnership of the licensee, however that money worked out,) just the promise of good word-of-mouth for its engine and these new consoles, all of that work... would they have done all that if they honestly thought somebody might have beat them to market by their deadline of December 2021?

Doesn't seem likely. Even with UE5 Early Access already out there and the consoles being a year old by then, Epic knew they had hot shit which was ahead of its time and going to blow a lot of people's minds. Matrix Awakens is of its era, but reality is still taking time to catch up to its promise.

Bottom line is these new consoles are 5x or more in raw power compared to last gen…but you forget the suits at the top of the industry want profits…thats why the developers have to optimize games for last gen hardware and also release on PC….for example Id rather games be either exclusive on consoles or PC so I could get an optimized API (to the metal) experience like TLOU II. Console only games always look better IMO, TLOU II, HFW, Ratchet…Spiderman (until recently) developers can optimize with one set of hardware in mind that a PC would have to brute force to match in comparison…The Matrix Awakens demo is the closest to real life, (besides maybe Flight simulator) that has ever ran on consumer level hardware thats playable in real time…

 

[Hohenheim]

These should help pushing those sweet ultra details but I guess i'll need a new ac first, because these things will get hot as hell!

 

[CamHostage]

Bottom line is these new consoles are 5x or more in raw power compared to last gen…but you forget the suits at the top of the industry want profits…thats why the developers have to optimize games for last gen hardware and also release on PC….

If you believe it's just all about raw power, then why are new-gen-exclusives Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart or Destruction AllStars or Returnal not "5X" better looking than every other game that also has to drag the anchor of a past-gen partner? These are very nice games, but stand next to their competition just fine. Why isn't the PS5 exclusive Returnal 5X more physics-intensive than any other games on PC or cross-gen? Why are the two cross-gen Horizon games (Horizon FW and Forza Horizon 5) measuring up as among the best-looking games ever? Madden and FIFA have dedicated next-gen versions, are they 5X better than the previous versions? If all this power is being squandered because developers can't bear to put real work into these new consoles just in case they ever need to go back down, why is the "truly next-gen" Matrix Awakens still struggling with framerate? These consoles have got so much mega-power and Matrix is and will only ever be made for the power level of just these new consoles, so should it not be blowing that 5X power sky-high now that the grandparents have gone to bed? (And technically Matrix Awakens doesn't even have a PC release; the Matrix Awakens City Sample was put out on PC 4 months later but it doesn't include the gameplay section, just the sandbox.)

Why do you think the suits at the top are so stupid that they will not make a game for PS5 and Xbox Series?

We're talking a market that is moving software 70/30% or more in favor of the new console version of games. (And BTW, the market that has always worked that way. Shortage crisis or not, this next-gen is once again quickly outpacing the tired past-gen, same as it always has. No suit at the top of the industry is unaware of this sales cycle.) Do you honestly believe that every single game developer, from mega-financed corporations to bleeding-edge tech pushers to hungry indie and foreign studios eager to cement their name, all of these game developers are refusing to sell you a "true next-gen experience" because they can't imagine losing out on 2'bits more in pocket change from the old console owners?

The bottom line actually is that increasing raw power in a box is easy; just put higher hardware in a more expensive box. Developing ways to harness new levels of power is the real challenge.

Id rather games be either exclusive on consoles or PC so I could get an optimized API (to the metal) experience like TLOU II. Console only games always look better IMO, TLOU II, HFW, Ratchet…Spiderman (until recently) developers can optimize with one set of hardware in mind that a PC would have to brute force to match in comparison…

I wish it was still the way you're thinking of it, that there's "secret sauce" in every console for intrepid developers to master and exploit in ways that make each console its own superhero in the great console wars, but...

Developers have not gone "to the metal" in a generation. There's no special capabilities in the PS4 which is allowing TLOU2 to do things better than other game studios; Naughty Dog is a well-funded, research-oriented studio, and they make the best-looking games because they take the time and implement the most bleeding-edge software solutions, plus they carefully strain their experience until it can deliver on their reputation of high-end presentation. You can go through developer diary/postmort breakdowns of of TLoU2 and you won't find much that's specifically talking about the peculiarities and specialties of PS4 hardware. There's no special SPUs in PS4; no 'weird-but-powerful-in-the-right-hands' CELL processor for great developers to master. They're just doing the super-hard work.

And if you're still waiting for some secret sauce inside the PS5 or Xbox Series to suddenly unlock the true unforeseen secret potential of next-gen, you're missing out on reality. We already know what it's capable of, and we even know much about what remains mostly unexploited. These consoles are built on familiar architectures, with various customizations and optimizations uniquely chosen by Sony & MS but even the "known unknowns" are based on general AMD chip functions or institutionally known technology approaches such as primitive shaders. Games are coming out post-launch with ML-enhanced muscles and high-framerate modes etc not because developers got special access to more of the hardware, but because they've refined and experimented with more performative techniques. Developers will get better at using or doing experimental work this specific hardware, for sure, but that skill and escalation of generational knowledge will translate over to PC and/or Xbox Series just fine, with only a few idiosyncrasies difference. It's not like back in the PS3 days where if you were a master of SPU micro-code, you were one of the most sought-after developers in that arena; these days, if you're good at making PS4 or PS5 games, you can fit in everywhere in the business.

Yes, there is much more juice to get out of these consoles than we've seen before, but the juice isn't being left unsqueezed solely because past-gen is still on the market.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

If you believe it's just all about raw power, then why are new-gen-exclusives Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart or Destruction AllStars or Returnal not "5X" better looking than every other game that also has to drag the anchor of a past-gen partner? These are very nice games, but stand next to their competition just fine. Why isn't the PS5 exclusive Returnal 5X more physics-intensive than any other games on PC or cross-gen? Why are the two cross-gen Horizon games (Horizon FW and Forza Horizon 5) measuring up as among the best-looking games ever? Madden and FIFA have dedicated next-gen versions, are they 5X better than the previous versions? If all this power is being squandered because developers can't bear to put real work into these new consoles just in case they ever need to go back down, why is the "truly next-gen" Matrix Awakens still struggling with framerate? These consoles have got so much mega-power and Matrix is and will only ever be made for the power level of just these new consoles, so should it not be blowing that 5X power sky-high now that the grandparents have gone to bed? (And technically Matrix Awakens doesn't even have a PC release; the Matrix Awakens City Sample was put out on PC 4 months later but it doesn't include the gameplay section, just the sandbox.)

Why do you think the suits at the top are so stupid that they will not make a game for PS5 and Xbox Series?

We're talking a market that is moving software 70/30% or more in favor of the new console version of games. (And BTW, the market that has always worked that way. Shortage crisis or not, this next-gen is once again quickly outpacing the tired past-gen, same as it always has. No suit at the top of the industry is unaware of this sales cycle.) Do you honestly believe that every single game developer, from mega-financed corporations to bleeding-edge tech pushers to hungry indie and foreign studios eager to cement their name, all of these game developers are refusing to sell you a "true next-gen experience" because they can't imagine losing out on 2'bits more in pocket change from the old console owners?

The bottom line actually is that increasing raw power in a box is easy; just put higher hardware in a more expensive box. Developing ways to harness new levels of power is the real challenge.



I wish it was still the way you're thinking of it, that there's "secret sauce" in every console for intrepid developers to master and exploit in ways that make each console its own superhero in the great console wars, but...

Developers have not gone "to the metal" in a generation. There's no special capabilities in the PS4 which is allowing TLOU2 to do things better than other game studios; Naughty Dog is a well-funded, research-oriented studio, and they make the best-looking games because they take the time and implement the most bleeding-edge software solutions, plus they carefully strain their experience until it can deliver on their reputation of high-end presentation. You can go through developer diary/postmort breakdowns of of TLoU2 and you won't find much that's specifically talking about the peculiarities and specialties of PS4 hardware. There's no special SPUs in PS4; no 'weird-but-powerful-in-the-right-hands' CELL processor for great developers to master. They're just doing the super-hard work.

And if you're still waiting for some secret sauce inside the PS5 or Xbox Series to suddenly unlock the true unforeseen secret potential of next-gen, you're missing out on reality. We already know what it's capable of, and we even know much about what remains mostly unexploited. These consoles are built on familiar architectures, with various customizations and optimizations uniquely chosen by Sony & MS but even the "known unknowns" are based on general AMD chip functions or institutionally known technology approaches such as primitive shaders. Games are coming out post-launch with ML-enhanced muscles and high-framerate modes etc not because developers got special access to more of the hardware, but because they've refined and experimented with more performative techniques. Developers will get better at using or doing experimental work this specific hardware, for sure, but that skill and escalation of generational knowledge will translate over to PC and/or Xbox Series just fine, with only a few idiosyncrasies difference. It's not like back in the PS3 days where if you were a master of SPU micro-code, you were one of the most sought-after developers in that arena; these days, if you're good at making PS4 or PS5 games, you can fit in everywhere in the business.

Yes, there is much more juice to get out of these consoles than we've seen before, but the juice isn't being left unsqueezed solely because past-gen is still on the market.

I didn’t state that PS4 had special abilities, “Coding to the metal” applies to any set of hardware…when developers have one set of hardware to develop for they can get every ounce of power and performance from it…The Matrix Awakens cannot be done on last gen hardware PERIOD. Thats my point…

 

[CamHostage]

I didn’t state that PS4 had special abilities, “Coding to the metal” applies to any set of hardware…when developers have one set of hardware to develop for they can get every ounce of power and performance from it…The Matrix Awakens cannot be done on last gen hardware PERIOD. Thats my point…

No, "Coded to the Metal" means written in the language of the hardware, without abstraction or translative computer language or other commonplace facilitation of functionality. It means a developer is operating with low-level code directly into the machine's process.

You can be a really good game engineer and get amazing results out of a machine and yet not necessarily be "coding to the metal". You're just making the right game for the right hardware. (I remember the original Crash Bandicoot design was chosen because they realized PS1 was really great at rendering the color orange... ND's Crash team mastered the PS1 in other ways, but selecting the color orange wouldn't be considered "coding" mastery... it's the same code anywhere, hex code#ff6522.)

There's a colloquial version of "to the metal" where it's described, as you say, as being a master of a console, but it's not the same. And like I said in my post, if you read developer diaries/postmorts, you won't find a lot of cases where game design (even at the best studios) comes down to being exclusively awesome at a given piece of hardware. It does help to know the box so that when you hit a wall, you can get over it, and maybe you can find some nice tricks/efficiencies to make use of, but that knowledgebase is important if you're working on one platform or 6. A studio is lucky if it has anybody on a team working "to the metal", and most of those 'metal-master' people are working on accessing the hardware so they can make tools for everybody up the chain from them to go make the actual game. Developers know how to do the things Insomniac or Guerrilla are doing, but having the skill and funding to accomplish that is very different. These are not among the best developers in the world because they're supergood at PS4/PS5, they're the best because they hire the best and they spend the most and they do the research and work with the tech teams to accomplish what they set out to do.

 

[samoilaaa]

i know we will most likely not get games that looks like this ( the exception might be some really linear short games ) but it still looks cool

 

[Caio]

 

[alloush]

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

i know we will most likely not get games that looks like this ( the exception might be some really linear short games ) but it still looks cool

After The Matrix Awakens, alot of that is possible in a few years IMO…

 

[alloush]

 

[Sosokrates]

i think we will get get games which are more populated with life forms and objects on screen, there are probably better examples but this fan made rdr2 craziness showed an impressive amount of npcs, objects and weather effects all going on at once.

 

[SlimySnake]

Stopped watching when they listed Redfall.

 

[Sosokrates]

Stopped watching when they listed Redfall.

Did Redfall start development on UE4 and then ported over to UE5.

 

[Sosokrates]

i know we will most likely not get games that looks like this ( the exception might be some really linear short games ) but it still looks cool

It kinda sucks that we still and my never get games which look this good.

This gen feels like last gen+ so far, which is still good, but that was the kind of leap I was expecting when we first learnt about the specs. Nothing visually has blown the best of last out of the water yet.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

It kinda sucks that we still and my never get games which look this good.

This gen feels like last gen+ so far, which is still good, but that was the kind of leap I was expecting when we first learnt about the specs. Nothing visually has blown the best of last out of the water yet.

In games true, but i think the various UE5 demos at least environment wise have shown a notable leap.

 

[Sosokrates]

In games true, but i think the various UE5 demos at least environment wise have shown a notable leap.

Im saying the UE5 demos I quoted was the leap I was expecting. But its not what we are got so far.

The UE5 matrix demo is nice, it has much higher geometric detail in the buildings and other objects, lumen is also nice, but not everything is ultra high poly, the textures are ok, the character models are ok and the iq looks kinda soft.

However its still early days and we have yet to see a AAA game made with UE5 so... Things will improve. I hope they improve very close to the quality of those demos.

 

[Sosokrates]

I wonder how custom engines for top devs will be done for this gen.

I wonder if they will be like UE5s innovations or if they take a more traditional approach.

Looking a dev like Naughty dog going from ps3 to ps4 everything was improved, but this time nanite is not some GPU feature. I hope they do something which really takes advantage of high speed SSD and improved i/o.

 

[ChiefDada]

I wonder how custom engines for top devs will be done for this gen.

I wonder if they will be like UE5s innovations or if they take a more traditional approach.

Looking a dev like Naughty dog going from ps3 to ps4 everything was improved, but this time nanite is not some GPU feature. I hope they do something which really takes advantage of high speed SSD and improved i/o.

If you go through the trouble of designing a console with an exotic memory subsystem, you have to build a unique engine to match.

 

[Sosokrates]

If you go through the trouble of designing a console with an exotic memory subsystem, you have to build a unique engine to match.

It cant be to exotic if sony intends to bring there games to PC as well. I imagine there games might require a 5.5gb+ SSD, O dont know how they tackle the i/o though because it would be a headache optimising a game for the ps5 i/o Chips and features and then having to make it work for direct storage and PC architectures.

Its why I dont think the PS5 ssd system is exotic I just think its high performing.

 

[ChiefDada]

It cant be to exotic if sony intends to bring there games to PC as well. I imagine there games might require a 5.5gb+ SSD, O dont know how they tackle the i/o though because it would be a headache optimising a game for the ps5 i/o Chips and features and then having to make it work for direct storage and PC architectures.

Its why I dont think the PS5 ssd system is exotic I just think its high performing.

But he basically says areas where PS5 is elegant/efficient High end PC can just brute force:

 

[alloush]

 

[Sosokrates]

But he basically says areas where PS5 is elegant/efficient High end PC can just brute force:

Like he said the PC could just brute force to reach that level of io + decompression performance but that might not be the best idea if sony wants not just ultra high end PC hardware to be able to play there games. They may have to find a way which works well on both PC and PS5.


DirectStorage and NvidiaComp use the GPU to do decompression. DS seems to work well according to the forspoken devs, and considering even mid range GPUs now have more compute the PS5 it should not be and issue matching its caperbilities, Cerny said there decompression stack is the equivalent of 8 zen 2 cores which is about 1tflop, maybe 1tflop on a GPU would be just as good.

Ono says that I/O bottlenecks are gone, as the machine is able to better utilize the hardware in it to perform file decompression and move those files where they need to go.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/compu...nFUZFI0S05FcUphdXAwWUhZdWpmVEQwR0NjeUtNbS1uNw..

 

[ChiefDada]

Like he said the PC could just brute force to reach that level of io + decompression performance but that might not be the best idea if sony wants not just ultra high end PC hardware to be able to play there games. They may have to find a way which works well on both PC and PS5.

Well PC hardware will advance and PS5 games don't have to ship day and date with PC counterpart.

Am I the only one not so impressed with the buildings used in ue5 demo? Very rudimentary looking, as if built with legos; maybe missing higher textures or tesselation? Not to diminish the tech here because i think nanite is great. The lighting is really the star of this demo.

 

[Sosokrates]

Well PC hardware will advance and PS5 games don't have to ship day and date with PC counterpart.



Am I the only one not so impressed with the buildings used in ue5 demo? Very rudimentary looking, as if built with legos; maybe missing higher textures or tesselation? Not to diminish the tech here because i think nanite is great. The lighting is really the star of this demo.

I dont think PC hardware needs to advance a mid to high range PC can already outperform a PS5.

The buildings in the matrix demo are higher poly and the draw distance is a lot better, so its definitely a nice improvement in that area but my issue is, in most gameplay you're not focusing on wide angle shots way into the distance. I'd rather have advances in particle effects, fluid simulations and better character models then higher environment geometry. You put a lot realistic smoke in a game and it looks "next gen". But real time Gi is nice, TLOU2 in certain daylight looks quite bland , realtime G.i may solve that issue.

 

[nemiroff]

Am I the only one not so impressed with the buildings used in ue5 demo?

No, the buildings look amateurish at times, some of them kinda stupid and not very realistic. But then again it's just a technology demonstration and we shouldn't overthink it. Good developers will make their own instead of asset flipping the shit out of it.

 

[alloush]

Well PC hardware will advance and PS5 games don't have to ship day and date with PC counterpart.



Am I the only one not so impressed with the buildings used in ue5 demo? Very rudimentary looking, as if built with legos; maybe missing higher textures or tesselation? Not to diminish the tech here because i think nanite is great. The lighting is really the star of this demo.

Yeah, the buildings do look off specially from a distance, once you come close up to them they get a little more detailed but all in all yeah it is like they are made up out of carton boxes, like cut-outs. Everything else in the demo is gorgeous though!

 

[ChiefDada]

I dont think PC hardware needs to advance a mid to high range PC can already outperform a PS5.

The buildings in the matrix demo are higher poly and the draw distance is a lot better, so its definitely a nice improvement in that area but my issue is, in most gameplay you're not focusing on wide angle shots way into the distance. I'd rather have advances in particle effects, fluid simulations and better character models then higher environment geometry. You put a lot realistic smoke in a game and it looks "next gen". But real time Gi is nice, TLOU2 in certain daylight looks quite bland , realtime G.i may solve that issue.

Outperform in what area? Resolution/framerate, sure. But current PC cards will not be able to mimic moment to moment scene density of a PS5 game that fully leverages I/O as well as PS5 because huge chunk of RAM will be cold/inactive.

Also, the way Matt has been talking about PS5 without talking about PS5, he seems to expect the gpu to work heavily from the caches as opposed to VRAM. Going back to your question, and since you mentioned RTGI, the main reason real time ray tracing (especially GI) is so slow on GPU is because the incoherent/secondary rays can shoot off anywhere in the scene and because it's random, scene data is often not in the caches. To what extent does the coherency engine and improved cache hit rate (rumored to be substantial) allow for more bvh to be in gpu cache? How are Sony devs and the ICE team customizing their RT algorithms to leverage their, as of now, unparalleled I/O system?

That brings me to my tangent; if ND doesn't show the most amazing RT implementation we've ever seen on console to date with TLOU Remake, it would be inexcusable imo. You have the ICE Team, you're not burdened by cross gen, your comrades at Insomniac were able to do so at start of current gen, you said it will be the highest quality and unrivaled for some time, etc... Don't let me down, Dogs!!!

 

[ChiefDada]

Holy S*** this Unity demo is running real time on PS5!!! I found from other forum

 

[Sosokrates]

Outperform in what area? Resolution/framerate, sure. But current PC cards will not be able to mimic moment to moment scene density of a PS5 game that fully leverages I/O as well as PS5 because huge chunk of RAM will be cold/inactive.

Also, the way Matt has been talking about PS5 without talking about PS5, he seems to expect the gpu to work heavily from the caches as opposed to VRAM. Going back to your question, and since you mentioned RTGI, the main reason real time ray tracing (especially GI) is so slow on GPU is because the incoherent/secondary rays can shoot off anywhere in the scene and because it's random, scene data is often not in the caches. To what extent does the coherency engine and improved cache hit rate (rumored to be substantial) allow for more bvh to be in gpu cache? How are Sony devs and the ICE team customizing their RT algorithms to leverage their, as of now, unparalleled I/O system?

That brings me to my tangent; if ND doesn't show the most amazing RT implementation we've ever seen on console to date with TLOU Remake, it would be inexcusable imo. You have the ICE Team, you're not burdened by cross gen, your comrades at Insomniac were able to do so at start of current gen, you said it will be the highest quality and unrivaled for some time, etc... Don't let me down, Dogs!!!

Where are u getting this info from? We dont have any metrics on how a mid/high end PC using DirectStorage performs in comparison to PS5. PCs can utilise all video ram and a majority of system Ram so I dont know what you mean when you say PCs have inactive RAM. video cards have nearly as much available RAM as the PS5 plus system RAM so I dont think RAM will be an issue for PCs.
Realtime Gi does not have to use RT, UE5s lumen doesn't use RT.

Also Matt Haggart is not a realiable source, he is speculative and praises sony way more, his commentary on these things are not balanced.

I dont think TLOU has realtime Gi because you can see some objects dont cast shadows when they should.

 

[Sosokrates]

Holy S*** this Unity demo is running real time on PS5!!! I found from other forum

U have the link to the other forum?

Nothing on the video says its running at realtime on a PS5.

 

[ChiefDada]

U have the link to the other forum?

Nothing on the video says its running at realtime on a PS5.

See the thread I made with link and quotes directly from Unity. It's running real time on PS5.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Outperform in what area? Resolution/framerate, sure. But current PC cards will not be able to mimic moment to moment scene density of a PS5 game that fully leverages I/O as well as PS5 because huge chunk of RAM will be cold/inactive.

Also, the way Matt has been talking about PS5 without talking about PS5, he seems to expect the gpu to work heavily from the caches as opposed to VRAM. Going back to your question, and since you mentioned RTGI, the main reason real time ray tracing (especially GI) is so slow on GPU is because the incoherent/secondary rays can shoot off anywhere in the scene and because it's random, scene data is often not in the caches. To what extent does the coherency engine and improved cache hit rate (rumored to be substantial) allow for more bvh to be in gpu cache? How are Sony devs and the ICE team customizing their RT algorithms to leverage their, as of now, unparalleled I/O system?

That brings me to my tangent; if ND doesn't show the most amazing RT implementation we've ever seen on console to date with TLOU Remake, it would be inexcusable imo. You have the ICE Team, you're not burdened by cross gen, your comrades at Insomniac were able to do so at start of current gen, you said it will be the highest quality and unrivaled for some time, etc... Don't let me down, Dogs!!!

Oh you sweet summer child. Still thinking Remake has RT? How precious. They would've hyped it up in their 10 min trailer my dude! How you gonna talk about "debris" and accessibility features and not talk about the biggest buzzword of this generation?

 

[ChiefDada]

Oh you sweet summer child. Still thinking Remake has RT? How precious. They would've hyped it up in their 10 min trailer my dude! How you gonna talk about "debris" and accessibility features and not talk about the biggest buzzword of this generation?

Ok.

 

[SlimySnake]

U have the link to the other forum?

Nothing on the video says its running at realtime on a PS5.

This combined production and technological effort features innovations in real-time technology that shows content created with Wētā Digital, SpeedTree, Ziva, SyncSketch, and the Unity Editor artist tools – now part of an integrated demo in a real-time pipeline, experienced on consumer hardware, running at 30 fps at 4K on PlayStation 5®.

From their website.

Not sure if they are talking about this demo though. Wording is weird.

New real-time demo, Lion: Unity Art Tools in action and the future of Wētā Digital for RT3D | Unity Blog

Experience our latest real-time demo, Lion, which brings artist tools from Wētā Digital, Ziva, SpeedTree, SyncSketch, and the Unity Editor together for the first time.

blog.unity.com

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Holy S*** this Unity demo is running real time on PS5!!! I found from other forum

Yea this is VERYYYY impressive!

 

[SlimySnake]

Oh you sweet summer child. Still thinking Remake has RT? How precious. They would've hyped it up in their 10 min trailer my dude! How you gonna talk about "debris" and accessibility features and not talk about the biggest buzzword of this generation?

If that lion king demo is really running on a PS5 then this is yet another example of just how dated these cross gen games like HFW, TLOU remake and Forza Horizon 5 look despite looking pretty damn good by last gen standards. Matrix has already blown these games out the water, but the Unity chess demo which featured the most realistic realtime woman ever rendered in a video game, and this is just mind blowing. I dont know if this is possible at 4k on a PS5, but 1080p like the Matrix definitely.

Check out the Matrix UE5 walkthrough they posted this week. They ran a comparison between native 4k and PS5's 1080p upscaled using TSR side by side and I couldnt notice a difference. The upscaling tech has improved so much that native 4k is just a waste of precious GPU resources in consoles. Cant believe ND, GG, and Insomniac are all targeting native 4k 30-40 fps instead of 1440p let alone 1080p like the Matrix.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

If that lion king demo is really running on a PS5 then this is yet another example of just how dated these cross gen games like HFW, TLOU remake and Forza Horizon 5 look despite looking pretty damn good by last gen standards. Matrix has already blown these games out the water, but the Unity chess demo which featured the most realistic realtime woman ever rendered in a video game, and this is just mind blowing. I dont know if this is possible at 4k on a PS5, but 1080p like the Matrix definitely.

Check out the Matrix UE5 walkthrough they posted this week. They ran a comparison between native 4k and PS5's 1080p upscaled using TSR side by side and I couldnt notice a difference. The upscaling tech has improved so much that native 4k is just a waste of precious GPU resources in consoles. Cant believe ND, GG, and Insomniac are all targeting native 4k 30-40 fps instead of 1440p let alone 1080p like the Matrix.

I agree, 1440p 60 or 30 all games.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

i think we will get get games which are more populated with life forms and objects on screen, there are probably better examples but this fan made rdr2 craziness showed an impressive amount of npcs, objects and weather effects all going on at once.

That is fucking amazing.

5/7 would watch again or buy that crazy ass game.

 

[SlimySnake]

Yea this is VERYYYY impressive!

Does it bother you that they kept your thread open despite permabanning you for some bullshit thing? Because it bothers me. What a bunch of assholes.

 

[CamHostage]

If that lion king demo is really running on a PS5 then this is yet another example of just how dated these cross gen games like HFW, TLOU remake and Forza Horizon 5 look despite looking pretty damn good by last gen standards. Matrix has already blown these games out the water, but the Unity chess demo which featured the most realistic realtime woman ever rendered in a video game, and this is just mind blowing. I dont know if this is possible at 4k on a PS5, but 1080p like the Matrix definitely.

You're still stockpiling the torches to drum out the evil Cross-Gen Monster, and man, I'd be with you storming the castle if I believed that was all it will take to solve things because I really want next-gen now to play on these next-gen consoles, but I don't think reality leads to burning that beast...

I mean, what we are talking about here is Unity Engine. Not some future total-rewrite of Unity, not a breakthrough technology possible only with next-gen hardware. It's Unity 2023.1, the upcoming regular iteration of an engine which has some great next-gen features and yet also deploys to a variety of much lower platforms. We're talking Unity's High Definition Render Pipeline (HDRP), the next-gen graphics system which powers the impressive Enemies chess demo you spoke of... and also already powered LEGO Builder's Journey, the really nice game which is on everything from high-end RT-happy PCs to Switch and iOS. We're talking about creatures trained with ZivaRT body-defining deformation... the same tech that Insomniac used to upgrade 2016's Spider-Man to have better muscles on PS5. We're talking SpeedTree... which is SpeedTree, something many are already familiar with.

It's all tech designed to scale or sub out fallbacks for many, many levels of hardware.

You and I have talked before that we're both suffering the same "where's all the fuckin' mind-blowing next-gen shit?!" feeling with these new consoles, but from different understandings of the reasons. For you, it's the dread spectre of cross-gen; for me, it's much more complicated and unfortunate, but in simplest terms, it is taking more time than usual to shift the paradigm. We can see where it will be going, we have in our hands already samples of what it should be, but nobody has had those technologies ready for productions in titles ready to ship yet.

Companies like Unity are still putting together demos of what's possible on almost 2-year-old hardware because developers are still working through the challenges of delivering on those levels. Thus Lion, a short and rather tame demo on a box lots of people already own, and still people are saying, "Whoa, that's on a PS5?!" And my understanding is that developers at their desks (at home) are reading those responses and saying, Yeah, we're getting there, we're getting there...

 

[SlimySnake]

You're still stockpiling the torches to drum out the evil Cross-Gen Monster, and man, I'd be with you storming the castle if I believed that was all it will take to solve things because I really want next-gen now to play on these next-gen consoles, but I don't think reality leads to burning that beast...

I mean, what we are talking about here is Unity Engine. Not some future total-rewrite of Unity, not a breakthrough technology possible only with next-gen hardware. It's Unity 2023.1, the upcoming regular iteration of an engine which has some great next-gen features and yet also deploys to a variety of much lower platforms. We're talking Unity's High Definition Render Pipeline (HDRP), the next-gen graphics system which powers the impressive Enemies chess demo you spoke of... and also already powered LEGO Builder's Journey, the really nice game which is on everything from high-end RT-happy PCs to Switch and iOS. We're talking about creatures trained with ZivaRT body-defining deformation... the same tech that Insomniac used to upgrade 2016's Spider-Man to have better muscles on PS5. We're talking SpeedTree... which is SpeedTree, something many are already familiar with.

It's all tech designed to scale or sub out fallbacks for many, many levels of hardware.

You and I have talked before that we're both suffering the same "where's all the fuckin' mind-blowing next-gen shit?!" feeling with these new consoles, but from different understandings of the reasons. For you, it's the dread spectre of cross-gen; for me, it's much more complicated and unfortunate, but in simplest terms, it is taking more time than usual to shift the paradigm. We can see where it will be going, we have in our hands already samples of what it should be, but nobody has had those technologies ready for productions in titles ready to ship yet.

Companies like Unity are still putting together demos of what's possible on almost 2-year-old hardware because developers are still working through the challenges of delivering on those levels. Thus Lion, a short and rather tame demo on a box lots of people already own, and still people are saying, "Whoa, that's on a PS5?!" And my understanding is that developers at their desks (at home) are reading those responses and saying, Yeah, we're getting there, we're getting there...

I know all the reasons. I know the whys behind the extended cross gen period. I understand everything you're saying. I just dont care. I paid $500 for this thing TWO years ago on the promise of next gen games, and I have not gotten my moneys worth. Plain and simple. I dont care about covid. I dont care about how long it takes. I dont care about crunch or tools or engines because that's not my job. I am the consumer and I am tired of being jerked around.

If GG, SSM, PD had started next gen dev in 2017 and 2018, they wouldve had access to devkits or GPUs and CPUs very similar to what we have out there right now. I am not buying this its taking more time argument because they had more time and they blew it working on last gen games fucking mocapping dozens of hours of side content no one gives a shit about instead of spending resources on making visuals look this good or systems that use the fucking CPU and IO Cerny built for them.

UE4 had some very impressive demos out in 2019. This was possible back then. I really dont care about the whys. They are excuses for lazy unambitious developers who were supposed to be on our side. We have spent decades championing artists like Cory and Neil and what do they do as soon as the become heads of the studio? They fold and turn into suits who prioritize profits and easy over ambition and pushing boundries. Whats the difference between these guys and Phil who went on and straight up told everyone Cross Gen is here to stay in 2020 some TWO years after he announced next gen consoles in 2018. WTF was he doing in those two years? Why was Forza Horizon 5 greenlit as a last gen game AFTER the E3 2018 conference. Why was Halo downgraded in 2019 when they couldve simply scrapped the last gen versions to achieve their true vision of a vast wild life system?

It's not that I dont understand. I just dont care. And I am not going to sit here and defend or excuse practices that have led to ZERO next gen games releasing in the third year or second full year or this generation. Especially after seeing whats possible. Not that I didnt know this was possible. I have been getting laughed at for 4 years for saying photorealism was possible this gen. Way before Matrix or these Unity demos came out.