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[Tamanon]

#1: Michael Savage made this exact point last night. Well, not about GAF. :lol

#2: LDS is not Christianity. I don't care about defending Christianity, but they're not the same thing. The Jesus of LDS is not the Jesus of mainstream protestant or Catholic churches.

The again, Jeff-DSA must never have read a Muslim thread on GAF, they get so much shit in each of them.

 

[Hitokage]

- Mormons don't believe (to their credit imo) in the trinity. So Jesus is literally the son of God (Eloheim), not Yahweh in human form.

As I was saying before regarding secret combinations, the Book of Mormon actually supports the trinity. This aspect was later discarded.

- The Book of Mormon says Jesus was born in Jerusalem, the Christian bible says Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

Mormons cite the latter, and ignore the former. The Book of Mormon is actually fairly ignored in general as doctrine issues go.

- Mormons say Jesus had wives. In the bible, he dies a bachelor.

Not according to the Gnostics.

- Mormons say you have to believe Joseph Smith was a prophet to be saved. Generally protestant Christians believe faith in Jesus is enough to be saved. Catholics believe faith plus good deeds are required to be saved.

This specific subject is far muddier than you're implying. Mormon views on the afterlife are Fire-and-Brimstone adapted for a Universalist outcome, as contradictory as that may seem. Almost everyone is saved, but mormons believe one should NEVER settle for just being saved. There are multiple levels of heaven, and the exclusive club at the top is the only thing people should ever consider.

BTW, the Book of Mormon condemns Universalism.

- Mormons say Jesus will return to Missouri. Christians say Jesus will return to Jerusalem.

Disagreement over details regarding the second coming is common among sects of Christianity. After all, not everyone believes in the rapture.

- Mormons say Jesus took a pit stop in the USA to preach to the Indians. Christians didn't know about the USA at the time the bible was written.

While your point holds, I'll just be an ass here and say that the United States of America didn't come into existence until the late 18th Century. Jesus didn't visit there.

- Mormons don't pray to Jesus. Protestants do. Catholics do, plus a bunch of other guys and gals.

There's a little rhetorical sleight of hand here. If you believe in the Trinity, then praying to God the Father is also praying to Jesus, and vice-versa.

Regardless, your post is entirely in terms of Catholicism and Protestantism but you completely ignore that neither are Christian themselves if you ask the Eastern Orthodox sects. Given the natural and historical diversity present among Christian faiths and my own personal disinterest in assigning 'good' or 'bad' just depending on how they are classified, I fail to see the importance in excluding Mormonism.

 

[Tamanon]

Man, whatever happened to the days where all you needed to go to Heaven was to be a good person?

 

[VictimOfGrief]

Man, whatever happened to the days where all you needed to go to Heaven was to be a good person?

Thanks to Eve we will never know. :/

But to get back on topic of this thread... I for one am interested in seeing all of my mormon friends FREAK out about this but besides them saying... "It's such a disrespectful thing to do... they should be ashamed!!!" I can't get a straight answer as to the "why?" part of it. Oh well. *shrugs*

 

[ronito]

Thanks to Eve we will never know. :/

But to get back on topic of this thread... I for one am interested in seeing all of my mormon friends FREAK out about this but besides them saying... "It's such a disrespectful thing to do... they should be ashamed!!!" I can't get a straight answer as to the "why?" part of it. Oh well. *shrugs*

I'm going to be sure to watch. I know that everyone's like "oh they'll ham it up for TV and say all this fake stuff." But like I said Big Love's has a pretty good record of being rather well researched.

 

[Hitokage]

Besides, they don't need to make it hammier than it already is!

 

[bluemax]

Hmm, maybe in the show they have stolen or fabricated recommends, or they have a rogue bishop... but im' guessing she just lies to the Bishop to get it. That wouldn't be too hard, hell, I was a freaking LDS Missionary for two years, the second year I was even supervising 15 other missionaries, and I was an atheist basically the entire time.

I got a temple recommend as a teenager in like 15 minutes and I probably lied about at least half my answers. The bisopric dudes usually want to trust you, and unless you're the worlds worst liar they'll give you one because fuck it, they really want people to go to the temple.

Honestly the Mormons love to fudge the rules to get their bloated numbers as much as possible.

Edit: I'm so going to have to check out some of the books that Hito has mentioned.

Right now is such a weird time for me, I've gone through a lot of personal stuff because of distancing myself from the church, and yet at the same time I've been keeping in contact with my brother who is currently serving a mission. And on top of that I have to deal with my gf and how my religious background/upbringing affects our relationship.

It's hard to undo a lot of the programming the church put on me.

 

[Tamanon]

I got a temple recommend as a teenager in like 15 minutes and I probably lied about at least half my answers. The bisopric dudes usually want to trust you, and unless you're the worlds worst liar they'll give you one because fuck it, they really want people to go to the temple.

Honestly the Mormons love to fudge the rules to get their bloated numbers as much as possible.

I mean, hell, if some are willing to make dead Jews Mormons, then I think the numbers game has gotten to the leadership too much. It's not Sales after all!

 

[Fusebox]

I heard Mormons believe God is a physical being living on another planet - is there any truth to that?

 

[bluemax]

I heard Mormons believe God is a physical being living on another planet - is there any truth to that?

I forget all the details on this, but to some degree yes this is true. I know they believe he is a being of flesh and bone but not blood. I forget all the shit about Kolob.

I do remember always picking "If you could Hie to Kolob" as a hymn as a teenager because 1 it was fucking weird lyrically and 2 it in a weird time signature and no one could sing it.

 

[Enojado]

I heard Mormons believe God is a physical being living on another planet - is there any truth to that?

Yes, this is true. Kolob is a star or planet that is supposedly nearest to God. They also believe that God was once a man like us and that he passed the test of mortality, was saved, and eventually became a god - in this case our god. So, somehow somewhere there are other gods out there with other planets (galaxies? universes?) with their own planets full of people that are going about their business.

 

[ronito]

Besides, they don't need to make it hammier than it already is!

You can't write better stuff.....well maybe the Masons could. But not TV!

 

[theBishop]

As I was saying before regarding secret combinations, the Book of Mormon actually supports the trinity. This aspect was later discarded.

Mormons cite the latter, and ignore the former. The Book of Mormon is actually fairly ignored in general as doctrine issues go.

Not according to the Gnostics.

This specific subject is far muddier than you're implying. Mormon views on the afterlife are Fire-and-Brimstone adapted for a Universalist outcome, as contradictory as that may seem. Almost everyone is saved, but mormons believe one should NEVER settle for just being saved. There are multiple levels of heaven, and the exclusive club at the top is the only thing people should ever consider.

BTW, the Book of Mormon condemns Universalism.

Disagreement over details regarding the second coming is common among sects of Christianity. After all, not everyone believes in the rapture.

While your point holds, I'll just be an ass here and say that the United States of America didn't come into existence until the late 18th Century. Jesus didn't visit there.

There's a little rhetorical sleight of hand here. If you believe in the Trinity, then praying to God the Father is also praying to Jesus, and vice-versa.

Regardless, your post is entirely in terms of Catholicism and Protestantism but you completely ignore that neither are Christian themselves if you ask the Eastern Orthodox sects. Given the natural and historical diversity present among Christian faiths and my own personal disinterest in assigning 'good' or 'bad' just depending on how they are classified, I fail to see the importance in excluding Mormonism.

I think my point still stands that the mormon/protestant differences are more significant than either protestant/protestant or protestant/catholic. But this is a great post nevertheless.

 

[ronito]

This was in the Salt Lake Tribune today. Sums things up pretty nicely.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_11898310

Are ceremonies so sacred, or are Mormons insecure?

A bunch of us were in Bammer's garage when we learned that an upcoming "Big Love" episode would feature elements of the LDS temple ceremony. His only wife came out and read it to us from the newspaper.

She showed us the photo the newspaper had published of an actress dressed in Mormon temple clothing. After a withering look at the only Tribune employee present, she went back inside.

Because everyone in the garage was "go-to-church" Mormon, the reaction was interesting. It ranged from a simmering annoyance to nuclear outrage. How could television presume to display something Mormons consider so sacred that even a lot of Mormons aren't allowed see it?

Me, I thought, "Wow, now I know exactly how Catholics felt when the movie 'Disco Demons IV' showed a priest performing a jive exorcism on a possessed mirror ball."

OK, I didn't really think that until just now. At the time I was too busy actually wondering what had taken Hollywood so long. It's not like what happens in the temple is a secret. You can find it on the Internet.

I'm not bothered by "Big Love's" perceived insensitivity. Probably because I don't need HBO's respect or validation for what I consider sacred. Furthermore, I totally get the interest.

Mormons are, frankly, a big draw right now thanks to fundamentalist polygamy, Proposition 8, liquor laws and "Big Love." So it's only natural that people are going to be curious.

Also, this is America in the Information Age. Telling people something is sacred/secret only makes them more curious. Insist that it's none of their business and they'll find a way to prove it is.

Still, it raises the question about how far other people can poke around in what you consider sacred before you have a right to get mad. Even more to the point is how much they should care when you do.

Should the media refrain from exploring anything that might offend a religious group? We kicked the crap out of the FLDS and everyone (except the FLDS) seemed to think it was fascinating. Hollywood has featured American Indian rituals and even displayed their mummified dead. Meanwhile, Jews don't have a secret left.

What can Hollywood legitimately portray regarding Mormon ritual? I wouldn't ask Mormons. Just about everything is "sacred" to us if it isn't portrayed in a utterly positive light. When Richard Dutcher's film "Brigham City" showed the sacrament being passed in an LDS ward, he got lots of angry responses from Mormons.

It seems a bit hypocritical to behave like this and then presume you're an unbiased anthropologist when examining the inner workings of other faiths the media routinely pry into.

What viewers of these programs might regard as quaint, silly, delusional or even potentially dangerous is considered by those groups to be utterly sacred.

Afterward we feel enlightened and perhaps even a bit superior to such silly behavior. Meanwhile, they feel violated.

Maybe that's what bothers Mormons the most: That the rest of the world will peek inside the temple and see us exactly the way we see them.

Says my thoughts on this better than I could ever do it. Oh man, the hate mail this guy is going to get for this article.

 

[Hitokage]

I think my point still stands that the mormon/protestant differences are more significant than either protestant/protestant or protestant/catholic. But this is a great post nevertheless.

Oh, yeah, I'm not trying to claim that they're just like the Methodists or Presbyterians, just that looking at sects from the Jehovah's Witnesses to the Armenian Apostolic Church, the tent easily accommodates them. Again, this doesn't mean their organization is benign, as you have raving assholes and hypocrites like Radical Cleric Pat Robertson whom most people recognize as some form of Christian.

 

[theBishop]

This was in the Salt Lake Tribune today. Sums things up pretty nicely.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_11898310

Are ceremonies so sacred, or are Mormons insecure?

Says my thoughts on this better than I could ever do it. Oh man, the hate mail this guy is going to get for this article.

Obviously I'm not a mormon, but I've never thought Big Love was disrespectful to its subject matter. Frankly, it must be difficult to not jump on opportunities to point out nonsense all over the place. But most of what you get from the show is a family that has problems, that is maybe spread to thin, but at the end of the day has a lot of love.

The "Compound" is definitely creepy, but that's not meant to be a portrayal LDS.

"Mainstream" LDS is not even a large part of the show.

 

[Barrett2]

Yes, this is true. Kolob is a star or planet that is supposedly nearest to God. They also believe that God was once a man like us and that he passed the test of mortality, was saved, and eventually became a god - in this case our god. So, somehow somewhere there are other gods out there with other planets (galaxies? universes?) with their own planets full of people that are going about their business.

Yep, this also opens up one of the gaping holes in LDS theology. Mormons believe that God and Jesus literally created Earth along with a large number of other Earths that are also presumably inhabited by other children of God. But the question then becomes; why did Jesus literally live on this particular Earth where he performed his universal atonement for all other Earths? In other words, isn't it a little too convenient to believe that God & Jesus created tons of Earths, but it just so happens that all the important stuff happens on this Earth, the one we are on. So basically all other planets worship an alien god that died and performed the atonement on another planet... wut?

This is a largely undefined area of LDS thought. Im' pretty sure when cornered about the subject, LDS leaders would just claim that they don't "really know" if God "actually has" other planets. But as far as I know, there are only two explanations. Either Jesus goes from planet to planet living and dying and performing an atonement on each planet, or it all happened here, and every other planet in our god's universe worships E.T.

 

[reggieandTFE]

Yes, this is true. Kolob is a star or planet that is supposedly nearest to God. They also believe that God was once a man like us and that he passed the test of mortality, was saved, and eventually became a god - in this case our god. So, somehow somewhere there are other gods out there with other planets (galaxies? universes?) with their own planets full of people that are going about their business.

Paging Xenu....?

 

[theBishop]

Oh, yeah, I'm not trying to claim that they're just like the Methodists or Presbyterians, just that looking at sects from the Jehovah's Witnesses to the Armenian Apostolic Church, the tent easily accommodates them. Again, this doesn't mean their organization is benign, as you have raving assholes and hypocrites like Pat Robertson whom most people recognize as some form of Christian.

See, I wouldn't consider Jehovah's Witnesses Christians either. I don't know anything about Armenian Apostolics.

The thing about Pat Robertson is that 1) he sucks 2) he misrepresents the bible. But he's working from the same subject matter that all Christians follow. So I would still consider him a Christian. Mormons believe in a significantly altered bible (even though wards i've attended use King James day-to-day), plus a whole bunch of other stuff. I don't think you can say these fit under the same tent.

I think all man's religions are bogus. So if you're going to believe in one, the only reason is based on the foundational text. There's no reason to be a Muslim if you don't believe in the Koran as it's written. Likewise, a Christian who doesn't believe in the bible can hardly be called a Christian. I realize it's a bit of a gray area, but if Joseph Smith were a Christian, he wouldn't have to "retranslate" the bible.

 

[Hitokage]

Yeah, well, but why bother arbitrarily throwing around "Christian-like" when you can just as well call them all "Christian", given clear lines of doctrinal evolution.

 

[theBishop]

Yeah, well, but why bother arbitrarily throwing around "Christian-like" when you can just as well call them all "Christian", given clear lines of doctrinal evolution.

The reason I take issue is because Christianity gets a high level of cultural cache simply because it's the majority religion in America. It doesn't deserve it in my opinion, but that's another issue.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I believe benefits by deliberately presenting itself as "just another protestant sect". While Scientology (for example) is dogged openly, LDS affords itself a higher level of respectability by concealing its Kolob, Man-God, Heavenly Mother nonsense. Basically all the big things that make Mormon belief different are swept under the rug until you've been a believer for a while.

 

[Hitokage]

That's absolutely true, but that's not how I'm approaching the question. I've been careful to try to make that apparent, because I think the mormon organization is destructive and their efforts to make themselves appear benign is another tool towards that end.

 

[shuri]

.. I read the thread but I still don't know what happens during the ceremony. I'll have to do some searching online tonight. Very interesting thread btw guys, it's interesting to hear from people who were/are actually in the topic being discussed.

edit: That guy (his names escape me and i can't search where I am right now) that was caught by the FBI, from memory, he was a superleader in the church and he was in the top most wanted person in the USA by the fbi. Was he a leader of his own sectarian church of Mormons, or he was the leader of the LDS?

So to make this clear, there are at least 3 branches of mormons?:

1- the classical Mormons
2- The LDS branch
3- The sectarian branch run by the leader who was arrested and had his mini-town raided last year (remember, where they removed like 200 kids from their parents)

 

[ronito]

.. I read the thread but I still don't know what happens during the ceremony. I'll have to do some searching online tonight. Very interesting thread btw guys, it's interesting to hear from people who were/are actually in the topic being discussed.

edit: That guy (his names escape me and i can't search where I am right now) that was caught by the FBI, from memory, he was a superleader in the church and he was in the top most wanted person in the USA by the fbi. Was he a leader of his own sectarian church of Mormons, or he was the leader of the LDS?

So to make this clear, there are at least 3 branches of mormons?:

1- the classical Mormons
2- The LDS branch
3- The sectarian branch run by the leader who was arrested and had his mini-town raided last year (remember, where they removed like 200 kids from their parents)

He was part of the FLDS sect, not the LDS.

I don't get what you mean by 'classical mormons'

 

[theBishop]

.. I read the thread but I still don't know what happens during the ceremony. I'll have to do some searching online tonight. Very interesting thread btw guys, it's interesting to hear from people who were/are actually in the topic being discussed.

edit: That guy (his names escape me and i can't search where I am right now) that was caught by the FBI, from memory, he was a superleader in the church and he was in the top most wanted person in the USA by the fbi. Was he a leader of his own sectarian church of Mormons, or he was the leader of the LDS?

So to make this clear, there are at least 3 branches of mormons?:

1- the classical Mormons
2- The LDS branch
3- The sectarian branch run by the leader who was arrested and had his mini-town raided last year (remember, where they removed like 200 kids from their parents)

You're thinking of Warren Jeffs of the Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints (FLDS).

I found this on Wikipedia:

 

[Barrett2]

Little bit of new info and insight via the AV Club.

It seems the Church is making another one of those official statement non-statements that every Mormon in the world will hear about except Jeff-DSA.

Angry Mormons Are Boycotting Big Love All The Way To The Bank - A special bank made out of ratings.

Big Love is a thoroughly engrossing, masterfully plotted, and occasionally very funny show. If you're not watching it, you should be. Not convinced? Well, what if I told you that this week's epsiode of Big Love contained a depiction of a super-secret Mormon temple ceremony that ABC News tantalizingly describes as, "teaching of secret handshakes that allow members to pass by the angels guarding the entryway to heaven." Now do you want to watch?

From ABC News:

An upcoming episode of "Big Love," which chronicles the lives of a fictional polygamist family, is reported to be depicting an endowment ceremony, one of the most sacred rituals of the Mormon Church.

"It now seems the show's writers are to depict what they understand to be sacred temple ceremonies," read a statement from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "Certainly church members are offended when their most sacred practices are misrepresented or presented without context or understanding."

The statement says that before the first season of "Big Love" aired more than two years ago, HBO executives promised the church that the series wouldn't be about Mormonism.

But the church argues that "Mormon themes are now being woven into the show" and that Mormon characters are often "unsympathetic figures" who are "narrow and self-righteous."

It's ironic that the LDS Church bristles at the "narrow and self-righteous" Mormon characters on Big Love, because it's clear from that part of their statement that they have a very narrow view of the show. Maybe they haven't even seen the show at all. Although the main focus is on a fundamentalist sect, Juniper Creek, Mormon themes and characters have been part of Big Love since the first season. And while there are some thoroughly unsympathetic, narrow, self-righteous LDS characters on the show, like Ted and Cindy, there are also some LDS characters, like Heather and the Henricksons' neighbors, who are compassionate and very likeable.

Still, this controversy won't do anything but get more people to watch Big Love, and for that I am grateful. Going on and on about "sacred ceremonies" and "private temple rituals" is like dangling carrots in front of a hungry television-watching public. I watch the show every week, and I didn't even know that Barb (a fictional character, by the way) was going to undergo a meaningful ceremony in her temple (also fictional) this week. So, thanks for the heads up!

I don't think that the creators of Big Love intended to offend Mormons to the point of causing an attention-grabbing controversy. But why should the controversies and the anger be restricted to the Mormons? There are a number of groups that could be offended at Big Love to the point of causing a ratings increase.

 

[LittleTokyo]

Incredible... "Big Love" hasn't been cancelled yet? People actually PAY for a premium cable channel to watch "Big Love"? Color me confused...

 

[Costanza]

Incredible... "Big Love" hasn't been cancelled yet? People actually PAY for a premium cable channel to watch "Big Love"? Color me confused...

You're a fucking idiot.

Cancel the best drama on TV! GREAT IDEA!

 

[Big-E]

Incredible... "Big Love" hasn't been cancelled yet? People actually PAY for a premium cable channel to watch "Big Love"? Color me confused...

WTF is this shit?

 

[ronito]

Incredible... "Big Love" hasn't been cancelled yet? People actually PAY for a premium cable channel to watch "Big Love"? Color me confused...

This had better be sarcasm.

 

[ronito]

So I just finished watching it. I figured I'd give my thoughts.

First off there aren't crazy pics of planets in LDS churches. I have no idea what was going on behind the Bishop/Stake President guy at the end.

That being said, I think the church should be greatful, it could've been much worse. Oh no doubt they showed secret stuff. But at least they bothered to get it right. Though the costumes were seriously old (the bows under the women's chins were silly) and made to look even sillier. They showed the prayer and the showed the second token straight on words name and everything at the veil. I know that mormons are in an uproar about this, but honestly it could've gone much worse. I mean it's not like they showed the old blood oath or anything like that. The church always complains that Big love gets everything wrong about the church, at least in this they were pretty darn accurate. They even got the whole "celestial room" bit down, except for the"Your 15 minutes is up." Bit, that's a flat out lie, you can stay there as long as you want. Though I did like the kleenex bit, that's true too. Plenty of kleenex.

I've heard a lot of mormons complaining about the wife's frantic need to recieve her endowment, saying it just didn't ring true especially if she wasn't worthy. But I've known plenty of men and women that felt the same way she did.

I've never been to an excommunication so I can't speak much to that. But again nothing seemed out of place. People complain about them asking her about whether or not she wears garments (meaning the underwear) but that's actually a question that's pretty typical in those kind of meetings.

But what I'm wondering is

Spoiler

what in the world was up with that whole thing of Bill Paxton falling down at the end and then that whole close up on the stars with that wierd music

what am I missing?

 

[Thaedolus]

WHY HELLO THAR THREAD

Living in Logan, UT this has been an interesting discussion lately...I'm still in the first season of Big Love, so I haven't seen the scenes yet, but I've heard they're spot-on, except for a couple minor things (see Ronito). But I've made the argument seen in the SL Tribune article many times (that Mormons are just embarrassed) and received nothing but outrage for my opinion.

As an apostate Mormon, I can say that temple attendance is something I can't really reconcile in my head...like Ghaleon, the first time I went I was weirded the fuck out, but my whole family was there with me so I was like "K, must be me..." ...which is an attitude that was driven into my head for most of my Mormon life. If something felt off, it was probably my fault for either not being worthy or not being intelligent enough to understand it. With the temple, I convinced myself that I enjoyed going, when really it was a coma-inducing 2 hour trip of repetitive nonsense.

Right now I'm dating an active-LDS girl pretty seriously, and I have no idea WTF to do about the religion thing...I dunno how much her parents know about my religious past, or what they would do if they found out I'm fairly anti-church :x

 

[May16]

"Obviously, it was not our intention to do anything disrespectful to the church, but to those who may be offended, we offer our sincere apology," the premium cable channel said in a statement issued Tuesday.

:lol I'm sure.

 

[Kipe]

I watched it. It didn't seem like a big deal. Definitely a little strange, but I was hoping for something more ridiculous, somewhere in the same area as Jesus Camp.

But what I'm wondering is

Spoiler

what in the world was up with that whole thing of Bill Paxton falling down at the end and then that whole close up on the stars with that wierd music

what am I missing?

Right before

Spoiler

Bill falls Joey replied back about God punishing Bill. I'm guessing he is starting to question his faith.

 

[ronito]

Right before

Spoiler

Bill falls Joey replied back about God punishing Bill. I'm guessing he is starting to question his faith.

I didn't hear that. Now it makes a lot of sense. Hrmm.....I guess the church wont like that much if he starts trying to go back....

 

[Enojado]

Watched the episode and I think Mormons should be happy the temple ceremony was put in such a positive light (imo). To me, the music combined with the softness of the image really helped convey the spiritual importance of the ceremony to Barb.

The 15 min thing was a bit exaggerated, but there are some temple where at times they are so busy they do push you out as quickly as possible. So, I'll have to say I think that little scene was not totally out there.

 

[jehuty]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Mormon church believe that the angels who didn't choose a side in the war in heaven became "black" people.

 

[theBishop]

They even got the whole "celestial room" bit down, except for the"Your 15 minutes is up." Bit, that's a flat out lie, you can stay there as long as you want. Though I did like the kleenex bit, that's true too. Plenty of kleenex.

Do people enter the room and thing "wait, this is it?!?" I'm always astounded by the way in which religion can inject meaning into otherwise meaningless experience. The sacrament is a great example, where people really savor a cracker and thimble of grape juice.

The Book of Mormon hangs it's hat on the "burning in the breast", which I've come to see as blatant cynicism on the part of the author. The person who wrote that knows people get all stirred up when they are told something is imbued with the "divine".

The Celestial Room seems to be another example of that. I've never seen it personally, but if you say it's an accurate depiction, it just looks to me like a nice upscale Nursing Home sitting room. When I saw that, the first thing i thought is "somebody vacuums this room."

But what I'm wondering is

Spoiler

what in the world was up with that whole thing of Bill Paxton falling down at the end and then that whole close up on the stars with that wierd music

what am I missing?

I took that as Bill seeing himself cast into "outer darkness".

 

[Blackhead]

Is Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven any good? It's one of my fave books on religion actually but I'm willing to read more on LDS if he got facts significantly wrong.

Not according to the Gnostics.

that's another thing. If one takes note that Constantine had a lot of stuff changed in Christianity, the modern day version has a much greater difference from the originals than the changes the mormons have made i think. Even just a cursory look through what survived in the New Testament shows the early churches were communistic while the modern day catholic church is a corporation :lol

Anyway enough digression, when is this episode airing? Didn't know the show was any good; will check it out.

 

[Enojado]

Yep, this also opens up one of the gaping holes in LDS theology. Mormons believe that God and Jesus literally created Earth along with a large number of other Earths that are also presumably inhabited by other children of God. But the question then becomes; why did Jesus literally live on this particular Earth where he performed his universal atonement for all other Earths? In other words, isn't it a little too convenient to believe that God & Jesus created tons of Earths, but it just so happens that all the important stuff happens on this Earth, the one we are on. So basically all other planets worship an alien god that died and performed the atonement on another planet... wut?

This is a largely undefined area of LDS thought. Im' pretty sure when cornered about the subject, LDS leaders would just claim that they don't "really know" if God "actually has" other planets. But as far as I know, there are only two explanations. Either Jesus goes from planet to planet living and dying and performing an atonement on each planet, or it all happened here, and every other planet in our god's universe worships E.T.

I believe the doctrine surrounding this states that out of all the populated planets, our earth was the only one wicked enough to crucify jesus. So, in one context that means we are living in the shittiest of all the earths out there. But, leave it to mormons to twist it around such that they claim this means we are the most valiant of god's children and that's why we are here.

I also think some past leader has basically stated that other earths have their own set of scriptures that basically teach them of jesus going to some other planet and dying for their sins. yeah, wrap your head around that one.

 

[ronito]

Do people enter the room and thing "wait, this is it?!?" I'm always astounded by the way in which religion can inject meaning into otherwise meaningless experience. The sacrament is a great example, where people really savor a cracker and thimble of grape juice.

The Book of Mormon hangs it's hat on the "burning in the breast", which I've come to see as blatant cynicism on the part of the author. The person who wrote that knows people get all stirred up when they are told something is imbued with the "divine".

The Celestial Room seems to be another example of that. I've never seen it personally, but if you say it's an accurate depiction, it just looks to me like a nice upscale Nursing Home sitting room. When I saw that, the first thing i thought is "somebody vacuums this room."

Look at it this way. You enter into the celestial room only after the whole endowment which is typically no less than an hour and a half long often times longer. And it's the representation of heaven. It's very peaceful and quiet and spiritual sorta like a zen garden is spiritual. After going through the whole endowment thing (which for some is an ordeal) it really is a breath of fresh air. So I've never experienced the whole "this is it?" thing. The rooms are beautiful and all decked out and peaceful.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Mormon church believe that the angels who didn't choose a side in the war in heaven became "black" people.

Since you asked I'll correct you.

This comes from a quote from a guy who wrote the definitive book of modern Mormon doctrine. His name was Bruce R. McConkie he said:

In the pre-existent eternity various degrees of valiance and devotion to the truth were exhibited by different groups of our Father's spirit offspring. One-third of the spirit hosts of heaven came out in open rebellion and were cast out without bodies, becoming the devil and his angels. The other two-thirds stood affirmatively for Christ: there were no neutrals. To stand neutral in the midst of war is a philosophical impossibility.

Of the two-thirds who followed Christ, however, some were more valiant than others. Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes.

Certainly the rants of Brigham Young and many other Prophets and apostles and all that adds to that perception. Also the whole "white and delightsome people" bits of the Book of Mormon don't help this either.

After the priesthood was finally extended to all worthy males (1978) McConkie wrote:

Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.

So the answer is yes and no.

 

[theBishop]

Look at it this way. You enter into the celestial room only after the whole endowment which is typically no less than an hour and a half long often times longer. And it's the representation of heaven. It's very peaceful and quiet and spiritual sorta like a zen garden is spiritual. After going through the whole endowment thing (which for some is an ordeal) it really is a breath of fresh air. So I've never experienced the whole "this is it?" thing. The rooms are beautiful and all decked out and peaceful.

Heh... maybe i just built up the notion of heaven too high during my religious years. I always pictured it as an almost unknowable creative collaborative waking dream. A bit like in the (awful) movie What Dreams May Come.

Anyway that picture definitely knocks it down a few pegs for me. Makes me feel a little better about my atheism.

 

[ronito]

Heh... maybe i just built up the notion of heaven too high during my religious years. I always pictured it as an almost unknowable creative collaborative waking dream. A bit like in the (awful) movie What Dreams May Come.

Anyway that picture definitely knocks it down a few pegs for me. Makes me feel a little better about my atheism.

To be fair, at least in my case, it was never really sold to me as the "end all be all mind boggling experience" tied to the celestial room. That stuff really is reserved for the endowment which really is sorta mind blowing. The celestial room is supposed to be a peaceful place. Which it is.