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[Estellex]

I am in college right now, so I had the chance to analyze and read through writing samples submitted by ESL and native born U.S. students. I sometimes find that ESL write better than U.S. born students, and that is just really surprising to me. How could someone that has been immersed with the English language their entire life be bested by an ESL.

The ESL I am talking about are from China or an East Asian country, so it is even more surprising since it is said that learning English when your first language is Chinese, Japanese, or Korean is very difficult and vice versa.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Yes, I've seen this happen a lot. Our education system focuses very little on lit and language skills past grade school.

 

[Cunth]

Yeah because they study writing skills. But a native who has studied writing skills would beat them

 

[Estellex]

Yeah because they study writing skills. But a native who has studied writing skills would beat them

I thought English writing is rooted in the U.S. curriculum. So by default, wouldn't many U.S. college students have a good grasp writing in English?

 

[Kamina]

Judging by the amount of people using “would of” and “should of” as well as other atrocities, mixed with borderline Tourette tendencies, american english can be considered dead and replaced by “retardish”.

 

[German Hops]

Judging by the amount of people using “would of” and “should of” as well as other atrocities, mixed with borderline Tourette tendencies, american english can be considered dead and replaced by “retardish”.

What do you know about English, pal? Your Australian.

 

[Kamina]

What do you know about English, pal? Your Australian.

Mhm

 

[Grinchy]

I really think that elementary, middle, and high schools in the US no longer take points off of papers or something. The "everyone gets a trophy" mentality has gotten so strong that teachers probably aren't allowed to "make kids feel bad" by removing 3-5 points for every misspelling or grammar mistake the way they did when I was a kid.

If you're a kid and you put a lot of effort into writing a paper, but your grade comes back in the 80s because of writing absolutely retarded shit like "could of" then you will learn your lesson right away. Your next paper will be better because of it. But if you get it back with the top of it having "100% A+ gold star sticker" despite the 10 mistakes, then you have now been taught that everything you wrote was completely correct. You won't even know that there's a difference between your and you're. And now nobody fucking does.

 

[TTOOLL]

I mean, if they came from abroad to study in the US you can be sure they are mostly the cream of the crop so it makes sense that they have great skills all around.

Also, writing well is really hard, just because you are a native speaker it doesn't mean you do it well. It requires a lot of practice.

Judging by the amount of people using “would of” and “should of” as well as other atrocities, mixed with borderline Tourette tendencies, american english can be considered dead and replaced by “retardish”.

When I took the CELTA in Montreal in 2017, I was astonished that I knew more grammar than some native speakers. They obviously didn't say "would of" or things like that, but some lacked basic grammar concepts. I actually had the best grade among all 11 participants that month.

 

[Mistake]

That’s pretty interesting, because while I was in china, I never found people who could write. A few decent speakers, but never writing. Even from peking university. If they were ABC (American Born Citizen) or like that, then it was possible their level was high since they were raised abroad or always in private schools.

I think older Americans can write well, but many under 30 I’m not so sure...

 

[joe_zazen]

Most American teachers are not strong writers themselves. And, the teaching strategies they are taught are based upon trying to get kids to express lived experiences and fall in love with writing; so, lots of journaling and poem writing. I think the idea is to teach kids to write in the same way that some people learn to play music by ear without ever learning musical notation.

So kids get to college being able to write reams of stuff on their phones, and express their ‘lived experience’ on social media, but without ever having gone through the pain of sentence diagramming, spelling & vocab, grammar, penmanship, so forth—let alone, writing rigorous academic prose.

My first semester, I took a classics class from an old British guy. The comment at the bottom my first assignment asked if english was my native language and if I could come see him. I felt like shit because english is my only language, lol. He was a busy full time academic, wrote a weekly column for a British communist newspaper, and published mystery fiction in his spare time; yet, he made time to help me with basic writing skill remediation, even making time after my class ended.

I am still kind of pissed at my earlier education and all the wasted time and the weakness of most of my teachers, but what can you do?

 

[Zenaku]

Work in a factory with people from all over Europe and England, and people's handwriting on paperwork is abysmal. Both ESL and native speakers.

I'm talking about paperwork that's mainly 'time/date' with boxes to tick too, really simple stuff, and most of it is illegible.

I've been praised for my writing plenty of times; I focused as a kid on making my writing easy to read while other kids wasted time trying to join letters and write 'neat'. My writing isn't neat, but it's easy to read, and that's what matters.

 

[V4skunk]

I am in college right now, so I had the chance to analyze and read through writing samples submitted by ESL and native born U.S. students. I sometimes find that ESL write better than U.S. born students, and that is just really surprising to me. How could someone that has been immersed with the English language their entire life be bested by an ESL.

The ESL I am talking about are from China or an East Asian country, so it is even more surprising since it is said that learning English when your first language is Chinese, Japanese, or Korean is very difficult and vice versa.

Because teaching about 70 genders and gender confusion is more important in the US.

 

[SlimySnake]

thats not true in all cases. or even most cases. In my writing courses in both high school and college, american born kids had the best written essays and screenplays.

I believe you are talking specifically about grammar and you could go to asian countries and find the same gap in grammar knowledge in the natives of those countries. it's a learned skill just like Math or programming. cant expect everyone to be good at them.

 

[poppabk]

I am in college right now, so I had the chance to analyze and read through writing samples submitted by ESL and native born U.S. students. I sometimes find that ESL write better than U.S. born students, and that is just really surprising to me. How could someone that has been immersed with the English language their entire life be bested by an ESL.

The ESL I am talking about are from China or an East Asian country, so it is even more surprising since it is said that learning English when your first language is Chinese, Japanese, or Korean is very difficult and vice versa.

Learning a second language requires you to actually learn the rules of the language rather than just picking it up by osmosis. I managed to struggle through french at school, but the whole verb tenses threw me for a loop and I never really got it straight.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

yeah it wouldn't surprise me. immigrants and foreigners are over-achievers. they have to learn English kind of by default, because it is so dominant, on top of their native language. by necessity they need to know 2 or more languages, whereas in the US it's not needed.

they also worship American culture. no surprise they would work overtime to be better at English.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Most people that learn English as a foreign language have a considerable focus on grammar, while a native speaker can (many often do) ignore the grammar, because they learned the language unaware of it.
Also, modern English is one of the most basic languages out there, outside of some irregularities and a few phonetic tricks, it is a very simple language.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Yes, I've seen this happen a lot. Our education system focuses very little on lit and language skills past grade school.

I can't even maths at a 7th grade level

 

[Mr Nash]

Mhm

Maybe Vier is Cunth's own personal Australian.

 

[DeliciousDoc]

I really think that elementary, middle, and high schools in the US no longer take points off of papers or something. The "everyone gets a trophy" mentality has gotten so strong that teachers probably aren't allowed to "make kids feel bad" by removing 3-5 points for every misspelling or grammar mistake the way they did when I was a kid.

If you're a kid and you put a lot of effort into writing a paper, but your grade comes back in the 80s because of writing absolutely retarded shit like "could of" then you will learn your lesson right away. Your next paper will be better because of it. But if you get it back with the top of it having "100% A+ gold star sticker" despite the 10 mistakes, then you have now been taught that everything you wrote was completely correct. You won't even know that there's a difference between your and you're. And now nobody fucking does.

This is absolutely what is happening, even in "elite" courses like IB. If it doesn't interfere with understanding it gets a pass. I learned the difference between then and than, its and it's and other simple grammar points that my teachers could have explained in less than 5 minutes from my then girlfriend while in university. In high school, one teacher told me I made a mistake so I asked him to explain. He told me it doesn't matter so I went out of my way to find out why through the internet. He also told me god doesn't want me to write.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

modern English is one of the most basic languages out there, outside of some irregularities and a few phonetic tricks, it is a very simple language.

Grade-A understatement right there, sir

 

[Ar¢tos]

Grade-A understatement right there, sir

Compared to French or Portuguese, it is just SOME irregularities and a few phonetic tricks (big emphasis on SOME).

 

[Mistershine.]

Why do many Americans seem to struggle with then and than? Also they're-there-their and your-you're. Also should-would-could have, not of.

 

[Grinchy]

This is absolutely what is happening, even in "elite" courses like IB. If it doesn't interfere with understanding it gets a past. I learned the difference between then and than, its and it's and other simple grammar points that my teachers could have explained in less than 5 minutes from my then girlfriend while in university. In high school, one teacher told me I made a mistake so I asked him to explain. He told me it doesn't matter so I went out of my way to find out why through the internet. He also told me god doesn't want me to write.

I had a 7th grade writing teacher who told me to never try to write comedy again. She was like 60 and looked like an old witch and took pleasure in telling a 13 year old that their attempt at a comical short story wasn't going to be picked up by SNL or something

But, hey...at least I know the difference between there and they're.

 

[Happosai]

I am in college right now, so I had the chance to analyze and read through writing samples submitted by ESL and native born U.S. students. I sometimes find that ESL write better than U.S. born students, and that is just really surprising to me. How could someone that has been immersed with the English language their entire life be bested by an ESL.

The ESL I am talking about are from China or an East Asian country, so it is even more surprising since it is said that learning English when your first language is Chinese, Japanese, or Korean is very difficult and vice versa.

All the time! I teach English in various Mexican Universities. Go to any given American dominated social media site and you'll get an idea of how adults should NOT speak / write in English. I get sick of hearing people botch up anything with es or et -- E.G. "Ecsetera" "Ecspecially"

Another one I used to hear in Illinois from college students: Did you see a movie? Yeah, I seen it twice. "

I don't go grammar nazi on GAF and to be fair, most here write excellent English...most.

 

[IfuckinghateReddit]

I am in college right now, so I had the chance to analyze and read through writing samples submitted by ESL and native born U.S. students. I sometimes find that ESL write better than U.S. born students, and that is just really surprising to me. How could someone that has been immersed with the English language their entire life be bested by an ESL.

Yep. A lot of ESL students studies consist mostly of grammar and writing rather than speaking. I've had students ask me grammar questions with terminology I had to look up. I knew why they were wrong, but couldn't think of a way to explain it.

 

[Rentahamster]

How could someone that has been immersed with the English language their entire life be bested by an ESL.

Because native speakers learn English organically for the most part with linguistic conceptualizations of language that are more fluid.

Second language learners learn English rigidly for the most part where the rules of grammar, spelling, and syntax are objective measurements for performance, and are thus more strongly ingrained in that person.

These two styles of learning and subsequent understanding of the subject material ultimately lead to those two different results.

 

[GAMETA]

Well, I can't say I write as well as those students you described, but I did in fact study a lot to learn the language and to be able to communicate properly in English. I particularly think I write well in my native language (Portuguese), so maybe there's that? A person who likes linguistics/writing/reading enough to reach a good level in a secondary language is probably more likely to write well in both languages?

 

[JBat]

I think people tend to write the way they speak. Stuff like subject and verb agreeing and ending sentences in prepositions. Things that still make sense in the context of the sentence but are not grammatically correct. I am bad
about breaking those rules in daily correspondence but I'll be damned if I use the wrong "there"

 

[teezzy]

I thought English writing is rooted in the U.S. curriculum. So by default, wouldn't many U.S. college students have a good grasp writing in English?

You're grossly overvaluing the success rate of our public education system.

 

[Chiggs]

Yes, America is full of fat, entitled morons who can barely read or write. In fact, some of these people are so dumb, I wonder how they even get the fucking spoon to their mouth, but given their girth....

 

[#Phonepunk#]

it is funny how much the rest of the world envys American culture. you always hear about Trump killed America or similar nonsense, but people still love Beyonce, they love rock n roll and hip hop, they love cheesburgers and baseball, Hollywood action movies, etc. US-driven pop culture.

that is because we are like a mutt. a dog made from so many different breeds. we are that much more lovable. without bad schooling and poverty, we would not have world famous accents that show up. there wouldn't be Iggy Azalea, an Australian blonde pretending to sing like a Dirty South rapper, if the world was not in love with American culture. furthermore, if we were only limited to "proper English", that kind of slang would have never been born in the first place.

proper English is fine, but it is not necessarily required. even it has it's regional variants. you can get more creative when you break the rules. this is how poets, singers, etc. do what they do.

 

[teezzy]

If your favorite country is anything other than the United States, or Canada, then I consider you bitch-made.

 

[LoganKnight4949]

English is my second language and I have a better command of it than most people I communicate with.

 

[Happosai]

Well, I can't say I write as well as those students you described, but I did in fact study a lot to learn the language and to be able to communicate properly in English. I particularly think I write well in my native language (Portuguese), so maybe there's that? A person who likes linguistics/writing/reading enough to reach a good level in a secondary language is probably more likely to write well in both languages?

I'm working my way toward learning Portuguese and Italian. Learning Spanish and Latin have helped.