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[HighPoly]

I need your opinion, and I'd like to do it, with a kind of democracy gamer choice...
Well, I know that some people must think this is irrelevant... I know...
But if we change this horizon for another Pixar or DreamWorks movie, we'll never need to ask those same early 2000's questions...
This is important to me, cause I love game's graphics and technologies.

I believe we surpassed Toy Story 1995, for a long time across the generantions, but in some areas like geometry, I don't think so...

Well, What do you think about it?? What's your opinion?? If you desagree with me, please, give me your reasons!!
What kind of movie could be the standard to be reached at this time??

 

[Silver Wattle]

How about we look at games and see if any movies can replicate the clarity and fluidity of them? Nope because movies are low framerate and full of shitty motion blur.

 

[HighPoly]

How about we look at games and see if any movies can replicate the clarity and fluidity of them? Nope because movies are low framerate and full of shitty motion blur.

I said, Toy Story 1995

 

[BackBackPunch]

The original Toy Story movie looked incredible when it was first released, but it is definitely showing its age now. It actually looks pretty rough to me now

 

[Crayon]

Haven't seen it in a long time but there may be some vestige of superior rendering still in there. The vast majority has been surpassed by modern games. Definitely the overall visual impact.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

You really can't make a thread like this without pictures.

Put up a pic from that Toy Story, and put up say, Ratchet PS5. You cant be asking me to remember what I watched almost 25 years ago....

 

[Quasicat]

The original Toy Story movie looked incredible when it was first released, but it is definitely showing its age now. It actually looks pretty rough to me now

Yep. By today’s standards it looks pretty rough…especially the humans.

They had to retcon him in Toy Story 4 because it hadn’t aged well.

 

[Puscifer]

Haven't seen it in a long time but there may be some vestige of superior rendering still in there. The vast majority has been surpassed by modern games. Definitely the overall visual impact.

Original Toy Story didn't even use ray tracing or anything fancy, it was all raster. I would argue for the simple fact cyberpunk is doing path tracing in real time, even if it's absolutely punishing, deads this entire argument.

That being said the one thing toy story has going for it that many games and movies don't is the Pixar Art style and animation, it's a total package on offer even if CP2077 is a technical powerhouse I can fully admit, even as someone that loves the game, there's something about it that's off lol. I dunno, maybe it it were more stylized grunge vs technical grunge it would be the end of this whole thing.

 

[CGNoire]

I need your opinion, and I'd like to do it, with a kind of democracy gamer choice...
Well, I know that some people must think this is irrelevant... I know...
But if we change this horizon for another Pixar or DreamWorks movie, we'll never need to ask those same early 2000's questions...
This is important to me, cause I love game's graphics and technologies.

I believe we surpassed Toy Story 1995, for a long time across the generantions, but in some areas like geometry, I don't think so...

Well, What do you think about it?? What's your opinion?? If you desagree with me, please, give me your reasons!!
What kind of movie could be the standard to be reached at this time??

FINAL FANTASY: SPIRITS WITHIN.

It has not been surpassed technically at all. Yah yah I know the characters look like plastic and that we had significantly better realtime skin shaders during PS3 era thanks to the 2002 advancements made by WETA but we are still far behind in a multitude of other areas like hair sim,cloth sim, polygon count, volumetric voxel based fluid sim and shear complexity of special effects.

The main character has 50,000 simulated strands of hair and far better hair rendering then we have now. She also has clothing clocking in at over 300,000 polys that are all full cloth simulated with no shortcuts. Fun fact all the data for the movies assets took up 2 terabytes back when no one was really even using that phrase.

 

[CGNoire]

Yep. By today’s standards it looks pretty rough…especially the humans.

They had to retcon him in Toy Story 4 because it hadn’t aged well.

Thag image may look rough as shit but the polygoncount is through the roof.

 

[HighPoly]

Thag image may look rough as shit but the polygoncount is through the roof.

Yes, I really wanna see how is gonna look like a game with the same geometry, but we need to consider the fact that Toy Story have simple characters. Games today have complex characters and elements in scenarios...

 

[HighPoly]

You really can't make a thread like this without pictures.

Put up a pic from that Toy Story, and put up say, Ratchet PS5. You cant be asking me to remember what I watched almost 25 years ago....

Well, we already run the Mario 64 art in real time

 

[CGNoire]

Yes, I really wanna see how is gonna look like a game with the same geometry, but we need to consider the fact that Toy Story have simple characters. Games today have complex characters and elements in scenarios...

For sure the visual return reguardless of technical underpinnings is far superior today.

 

[Danjin44]

You guys really need to stop comparing CGI to games, they just build different compare to games, they have much more control and never have to worry about players moving camera, game systems and performance.

 

[Three]

Thag image may look rough as shit but the polygoncount is through the roof.

I'm pretty sure it uses NURBS and not polygons.

 

[HighPoly]

For sure the visual return reguardless of technical underpinnings is far superior today.

yes, it's more difficult to make a complex ALOY or KRATOS geometry than Woody... I don't think Kingdom Hearts 3 used the full PS4ONE power, we could see more from Square using UE4.

 

[K' Dash]

The original Toy Story movie looked incredible when it was first released, but it is definitely showing its age now. It actually looks pretty rough to me now

I watch Toy Story every day because of my daughter, it’s been a while since we surpassed that movie IQ wise at least.

Toy Story 4, though…

We have seen a couple game with impressive visuals this gen… that are boring as fuck to play. It’s been a while since I stopped caring about graphics and just care about the fun factor.

I dropped HFW after 10 hours because it was dull as fuck, meanwhile I’m playing Zelda on a glorified tablet with old as fuck internals and having the best time playing a game since 2017.

So maybe we focus on gameplay, quests, mechanics and avoid grinding, for fucks sake.

 

[HighPoly]

I watch Toy Story every day because of my daughter, it’s been a while since we surpassed that movie IQ wise at least.

Toy Story 4, though…

We have seen a couple game with impressive visuals this gen… that are boring as fuck to play. It’s been a while since I stopped caring about graphics and just care about the fun factor.

I dropped HFW after 10 hours because it was dull as fuck, meanwhile I’m playing Zelda on a glorified tablet with old as fuck internals and having the best time playing a game since 2017.

So maybe we focus on gameplay, quests, mechanics and avoid grinding, for fucks sake.

it seems like MK1, Spider Man 2 and GTA6 are gonna be amazing, and plus with amazing graphics

 

[CGNoire]

I'm pretty sure it uses NURBS and not polygons.

NURBs

ThatsaTermIHaventHeardinaLongtime.gif

 

[Redneckerz]

Toy Story 1995 uses scanline rendering and the PRMan (Photorealistic Renderman). It doesn't use radiosity, which is a feat reserved for Blue Sky Studio whose CGI Studio pioneered the use of it and actual raytracing. Safe to say, it was horrendously slow even back then.

Fun fact: The Reyes Renderer that PRMan used (Renders Everything You Ever Saw) is the successor the Reyes program, which was used to generate the The Road to Point Reyes image back in 1983. This ran on the Cray 2-MP supercomputer - http://alvyray.com/Memos/CG/Lucasfilm/Andre&WallyB_TheMakingOf.pdf -

I believe we surpassed Toy Story 1995, for a long time across the generantions, but in some areas like geometry, I don't think so...

Well, What do you think about it?? What's your opinion?? If you desagree with me, please, give me your reasons!!
What kind of movie could be the standard to be reached at this time??

Digital Foundry had a piece where it compared Toy Story with the Toy Story UE4 game. We come close, but in terms of post processing, 1995 still has us beat.

In terms of shading, we are definitely up there. I do believe that we more have to look at Final Fantasy: Spirits Within

FINAL FANTASY: SPIRITS WITHIN.

It has not been surpassed technically at all. Yah yah I know the characters look like plastic and that we had significantly better realtime skin shaders during PS3 era thanks to the 2002 advancements made by WETA but we are still far behind in a multitude of other areas like hair sim,cloth sim, polygon count, volumetric voxel based fluid sim and shear complexity of special effects.

Fun fact: Spirits Within like Toy Story uses Renderman. But Spirits Within uses custom shaders to achieve its look. I believe in some ways real-time is surpassing this, but Renderman has far larger geometry density due to its scanline rendering.

Another good comparison would be Kingsglaive: Final Fantasy XV. That uses V-Ray as its render engine.

Well, we already run the Mario 64 art in real time

That typically reminds me of the Softimage renderer package that was so omnipresent in the late 80's to mid 90s. Are we there yet? It looks very anti-aliased. In fact Softimage|3D - Extreme Edition supported Nintendo 64 in version 3.7, so this very likely comes from that package.

 

[CGNoire]

It doesn't use radiosity, which is a feat reserved for Blue Sky Studio whose CGI Studio pioneered the use of it

I remember processing "radiosity" lightmaps for Max Payne custom maps.
Ofcourse being 2001 shit took forever. Was that the same GI solution or are they not related?

 

[HighPoly]

Toy Story 1995 uses scanline rendering and the PRMan (Photorealistic Renderman). It doesn't use radiosity, which is a feat reserved for Blue Sky Studio whose CGI Studio pioneered the use of it and actual raytracing. Safe to say, it was horrendously slow even back then.

Fun fact: The Reyes Renderer that PRMan used (Renders Everything You Ever Saw) is the successor the Reyes program, which was used to generate the The Road to Point Reyes image back in 1983. This ran on the Cray 2-MP supercomputer - http://alvyray.com/Memos/CG/Lucasfilm/Andre&WallyB_TheMakingOf.pdf -

Digital Foundry had a piece where it compared Toy Story with the Toy Story UE4 game. We come close, but in terms of post processing, 1995 still has us beat.

In terms of shading, we are definitely up there. I do believe that we more have to look at Final Fantasy: Spirits Within

Fun fact: Spirits Within like Toy Story uses Renderman. But Spirits Within uses custom shaders to achieve its look. I believe in some ways real-time is surpassing this, but Renderman has far larger geometry density due to its scanline rendering.

Another good comparison would be Kingsglaive: Final Fantasy XV. That uses V-Ray as its render engine.


That typically reminds me of the Softimage renderer package that was so omnipresent in the late 80's to mid 90s. Are we there yet? It looks very anti-aliased. In fact Softimage|3D - Extreme Edition supported Nintendo 64 in version 3.7, so this very likely comes from that package.

Square made a Toy Story chapter in KH3, using UE4, and I thought beautiful, but Toy Story is prettier in so many ways... I believe PS4 and XONE, could make so much more than KH3 did. I hope to see KH4 with some kind of Toy Story chapter again, using UE5, but we don't know if Square will push PS5 to the limit again. We need a Disney Pixar Triple A Game, just like Ratchet Clank Rift Apart.

 

[Soodanim]

The best thing about Toy Story these days is how clean everything looks. No jaggies at all. Forget modern goals, I'd take images that clean with downgrades elsewhere.

Yep. By today’s standards it looks pretty rough…especially the humans.

They had to retcon him in Toy Story 4 because it hadn’t aged well.

I know most people use retcon wrong, but this one is going to really need some justification.

 

[Banjo64]

The original Toy Story movie looked incredible when it was first released, but it is definitely showing its age now. It actually looks pretty rough to me now

Yes, agreed. When you watch it and then watch something like Toy Story 4 back to back the difference is multi-generational.

 

[nkarafo]

Well, we already run the Mario 64 art in real time

Close but you can still see the reduction in polygons. Look at the base of the gloves for instance.

No matter how powerful your hardware is, games always reduce the amount of polygons compared to the original asset and promotional renders. We have reached the point where this isn't really noticeable at normal distances but when you zoom in even on the most detailed game models, you can see that nothing is really rounded.

But even in Toy Story 1, there are scenes where the camera is very close on a part of a model and everything is still perfectly rounded.

 

[HighPoly]

Close but you can still see the reduction in polygons. Look at the base of the gloves for instance.

No matter how powerful your hardware is, games always reduce the amount of polygons compared to the original asset and promotional renders. We have reached the point where this isn't really noticeable at normal distances but when you zoom in even on the most detailed game models, you can see that nothing is really rounded.

But even in Toy Story 1, there are scenes where the camera is very close on a part of a model and everything is still perfectly rounded.

do you think we're at least running PSONE CGi? I mean, not the Tekken CGi, that is ugly, but maybe RE3, Parasite EVE 2, FF9 CGi ??

 

[Stooky]

How about we look at games and see if any movies can replicate the clarity and fluidity of them? Nope because movies are low framerate and full of shitty motion blur.

HFR, yeah movies tried that it didn’t go well. In the hobbit people were complaining that it looked like a video game. Avatar is the most successful and that just came out last year. I’m sure per screen they made money on good ol’ 24fps screenings

 

[Lucifers Beard]

Toy Story 1 looks pretty rough to me these days. Textures are extremely flat and it just looks bland.

Toy Story 3 and 4 though are sublime. I remember seeing the lighting and shadows in Toy Story 3 (start scene with the storm and buggy) and thinking it looked amazing.

 

[nkarafo]

do you think we're at least running PSONE CGi? I mean, not the Tekken CGi, that is ugly, but maybe RE3, Parasite EVE 2, FF9 CGi ??

In terms of polygons? These CGI scenes are very low resolution to be able to tell usually. But i would say yes, we have surpassed those models in level of detail. Pretty sure i have seen FMVs from that era where you can still make out the vertices.

 

[Redneckerz]

I remember processing "radiosity" lightmaps for Max Payne custom maps.
Ofcourse being 2001 shit took forever. Was that the same GI solution or are they not related?

The terms were interchangeable. For Blue Sky, Radiosity was achieved through raytracing.

Lightmaps, as in Quake, were "Baked", but generally with less refined algorithms. Lighting a Quake level could be several hours.

 

[HighPoly]

In terms of polygons? I can't tell, these CGI scenes are very low resolution to be able to tell. But i would bet yes, we have surpassed those models in level of detail. Pretty sure i have seen FMVs from that era where you can still make out the vertices.

in this channel you'll watch some remastered old CGi

 

[nkarafo]

in this channel you'll watch some remastered old CGi

Well it's arguable. I bet these models still have a huge amount of polygons that if you could cut in half you still wouldn't make out the vertices. On the other hand they are also less detail when it comes to features. In modern games, characters can have a ton of objects/features/gear modeled on them.

Something like the above model looks ridiculously detailed and much more complex than those renders in the video. But the amount of polygons used on each object will always be as efficient as possible.

If i had to bet i would say yeah, something like Resident Evil 8 or Horizon have models that surpass the poly count of those late PS1 era FMV renders.

 

[HighPoly]

Well it's arguable. I bet these models still have a huge amount of polygons that if you could cut in half you still wouldn't make out the vertices. On the other hand they are also less detail when it comes to features. In modern games, characters can have a ton of objects/features/gear modeled on them.

Something like the above model looks ridiculously detailed and much more complex than those renders in the video. But the amount of polygons used on each object will always be as efficient as possible.

If i had to bet i would say yeah, something like Resident Evil 8 or Horizon have models that surpass the poly count of those late PS1 era FMV renders.

Yes, I'm at the moment that I can't tell Final Fantasy X CGi is beautiful anymore... That's not ugly, weird or shomething like that, but anyway, that's not amazing as when I saw for the first time... I believe we're gonna get some kind of PS3 CGi Level, in terms of looking, not in terms of technique, but the looking, like FFXIII CGi, at the ending of this gen...

 

[Drizzlehell]

I managed to find some render of Woody from the first movie which consisted roughly of 40,000 polygons but that one wasn't the official movie render (although it looked close enough) so take it with a grain of salt. In comparison, an average video game character in modern games like God of War require about 80,000 polygons.

So there you go, the visual complexity of modern games is roughly twice of that what you saw in the original Toy Story movie, meaning that video games have far surpassed that level of visual fidelity a long time ago.

Also, while I was googling this, I stumbled upon this thread:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/character-models-ratchet-clank-ps5-vs-toy-story-1995.1548156/

Seems like GAF is really preoccupied with this particular conundrum, lol.

 

[HighPoly]

I managed to find some render of Woody from the first movie which consisted roughly of 40,000 polygons but that one wasn't the official movie render (although it looked close enough) so take it with a grain of salt. In comparison, an average video game character in modern games like God of War require about 80,000 polygons.

So there you go, the visual complexity of modern games is roughly twice of that what you saw in the original Toy Story movie, meaning that video games have far surpassed that level of visual fidelity a long time ago.

Also, while I was googling this, I stumbled upon this thread:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/character-models-ratchet-clank-ps5-vs-toy-story-1995.1548156/

Seems like GAF is really preoccupied with this particular conundrum, lol.

Understood, but in may case I just wanna change that Gamers Standard of Toy Story 1995...
I believe we surpassed that in more than 70% of technologies, so we need to move on, and make some another kind of movie, as a new Standard...

 

[Drizzlehell]

Understood, but in may case I just wanna change that Gamers Standard of Toy Story 1995...
I believe we surpassed that in more than 70% of technologies, so we need to move on, and make some another kind of movie, as a new Standard...

Movie CGI is still ahead of the curve tbh. Even in recent years when the combination and COVID and movie studios cutting corners and overworking CG artists has caused the visual effects quality to drop, those recent Monsterverse movies or Avatar 2 still look incredible and video games are nowhere near that level.

 

[nkarafo]

I managed to find some render of Woody from the first movie which consisted roughly of 40,000 polygons but that one wasn't the official movie render (although it looked close enough) so take it with a grain of salt. In comparison, an average video game character in modern games like God of War require about 80,000 polygons.

Would you like to post some sources? What do you mean it wasn't official? The argument is about modern video game models surpassing the stuff that was actually used in the Toy Story movie.

 

[DEAD ORIGINAL]

The original Toy Story movie looked incredible when it was first released, but it is definitely showing its age now. It actually looks pretty rough to me now

Rough as a badger's arse

 

[VeganElduderino]

I want a game that has the exact same "graphics" well stop motion effects like this

 

[Uiki]

I want a game that has the exact same "graphics" well stop motion effects like this

 

[VeganElduderino]

ahhahaa I see what you did there!

 

[SirTerry-T]

Thag image may look rough as shit but the polygoncount is through the roof.

Yep, they used NURBS too.


Edit: already mentioned multiple times, don't mind me. Carry on!

 

[CGNoire]

The terms were interchangeable. For Blue Sky, Radiosity was achieved through raytracing.

Lightmaps, as in Quake, were "Baked", but generally with less refined algorithms. Lighting a Quake level could be several hours.

yah I remember a single room with only one light source taking over 20 minutes.

 

[CGNoire]

I want a game that has the exact same "graphics" well stop motion effects like this

yes and also a game that looks like the original cover for Starfox. Like photoreal puppet animation where it looks like a old time puppet scifi show.

 

[VeganElduderino]

yes and also a game that looks like the original cover for Starfox. Like photoreal puppet animation where it looks like a old time puppet scifi show.

That would be sweet , puppeteer on Ps3 is not far off , I wish we would get a sequel.

 

[HighPoly]

WE NEED A NEW TOY STORY GAME, made as a triple A game, using UE5

 

[Spaceman292]

You guys really need to stop comparing CGI to games, they just build different compare to games, they have much more control and never have to worry about players moving camera, game systems and performance.

Pixar movies run at 0.001 frames per second.

 

[Griffon]

I'd argue that debate has been over since the late PS4 days.

Toy Story is old as dirt now. Not to mention many of you only have seen the remastered rerelease of Toy Story 1. The original theatrical version looks a looooot worse than what's available now.

 

[BlackTron]

I'd argue that debate has been over since the late PS4 days.

Toy Story is old as dirt now. Not to mention many of you only have seen the remastered rerelease of Toy Story 1. The original theatrical version looks a looooot worse than what's available now.

Wait they remastered it? Did they actually redo some of the CGI like the humans or we talking about some extra shimmer and upres?

 

[HighPoly]

Wait they remastered it? Did they actually redo some of the CGI like the humans or we talking about some extra shimmer and upres?

from 480p to 4k