Support NeoGAF

[rnlval]

Lol. No. Absolutely. Are you crazy? Series X mock more the separate RAM/bandwidth architecture on pc.

With BiG NAVI's SAM feature, PC CPU can access the entire PC GPU's VRAM like a unified memory pool. The best of both worlds i.e. PC CPU can access the entire GPU's VRAM (without 256 MB access window) while having discrete CPU memory.

From the GPU POV,
XSX GPU has high (560GB/s 10GB) and slow speed (336 GB/s 6GB) zones

RX 6800 GPU has very high(1.1 TB/s 128 MB L3 cache) and slow speed (512 GB/s 16GB) zones

Try again.

 

[assurdum]

With BiG NAVI's SAM feature, PC CPU can access the entire PC GPU's VRAM like a unified memory pool.

Try again.

I stop here. It's clear you don't know of what you are talking about. I wasted my time. I give up. The level of confusion you create with such data is immense, you continue to connect things to the other stuff and then you have the courage to reclaim to be savy tevh. Good Lord. It's exhausting.

 

[rnlval]

Nope. It has 7900 XT, if you ask me.

PS5 was murdered by RX 6800.

 

[rnlval]

I stop here. It's clear you don't know of what you are talking about. I wanted my time. I give up

It's clear you don't know of what you are talking about = YOU

 

[assurdum]

It's clear you don't know of what you are talking about = YOU

You know what? Whatever. I update my ignore list again

 

[Md Ray]

PS5 was murdered by RX 6800.

PS5 comes with one thing that RX 6800 doesn't.

 

[rnlval]

I'm not supporting anything. It's you who believe ps5 uses cache system is like the PS4 because you don't believe on Sony presentation, it's only propaganda blablabla but meanwhile you can't see how there are bottlenecks on series X when the first multiplat prove it. Now I don't say it can't beat ps5 in the future, indeed I fully expect it, but the difference will be so ridiculous than people will remember more their propaganda of the most powerful hardware the world and how it fails a the beginning of the generation than the better performance in the future multiplat. Imo. So I don't know even it's that worthy continue to discuss about it.

You stated, "I'm not supporting anything."

You then stated, "meanwhile you can't see how there are bottlenecks on series X when the first multiplat prove it." in reference to https://www.neogaf.com/threads/imo-...istake-to-be-corrected.1577809/post-261215811

You just contradicted yourself.

Against your "It's you who believe ps5 uses cache system is like the PS4", you latched on marketing technobabble just like PS4 era L2 cache modification fanboys. You label me as a fanboy and I label you as a hypocrite.

 

[assurdum]

You stated, "I'm not supporting anything."

You then stated, "meanwhile you can't see how there are bottlenecks on series X when the first multiplat prove it." in reference to https://www.neogaf.com/threads/imo-...istake-to-be-corrected.1577809/post-261215811

You just contradicted yourself.

Against your "It's you who believe ps5 uses cache system is like the PS4", you latched on marketing technobabble just like PS4 era L2 cache modification fanboys. You label me as a fanboy and I label you as a hypocrite.

Goodbye

 

[rnlval]

PS5 comes with one thing that RX 6800 doesn't.

Such as?

 

[Md Ray]

Such as?

Such as 8 cores Zen 2 CPU built into it and the whole system costs $399

 

[Elog]

You can't fit BiG NAVI's ~100 mm2 128 MB L3 cache in a PS5 APU.

It is correct that you cannot fit 128MB on the main APU die of the PS5 - that is impossible. The question is then where it is...just follow the Cerny breadcrumbs through history and Sony engineering across divisions

Note: Just to be clear - I am not 100% sure about this but I feel more certain now than before that the PS5 has a large unified cache and as rightfully pointed out it is impossible to fit that on the main APU die.

 

[John Wick]

Why even bother explaining anything to some of these guys? These are the same people that believe this secret insider that claims the ps5 has RDNA 3 features. Logic just goes out the window.

So do you think if Sony or one of it's studios came up with something that improves on something that came before and they ask AMD to build this said feature into the hardware for the PS5. So your saying this is ilogical? Are you then saying AMD couldn't take that very feature and add it to their next GPU line RDNA 3? PS5 very well could have features that are custom to Sony because they aren't following the path of DX12, MS and PC GPU's. There is reason why PS5 doesn't have full PC RDNA 2 features. You claim Sony fanboys are being ridiculous while at the same time pandering to the same thought process. You do realise Sony worked closely with Epic and other developers(including their own studios) for the features of the PS5. Epic are one of the most technically knowledgeable companies in the world loathe or hate their CEO.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

The hell it has to do series X size about the ps5 custom cache system? So because it hasn't the big size of big navi for you the custom cache system on ps5 it's inexistent? Go to inform yourself at least, there are tons of resources on the net. Lol.

Technically speaking, IC has not been confirmed on PS5 and there's nothing preventing that confirmation at this point since NDAs around IC are gone. There's a chance PS5 has a customized L3$ but it's not 128 MBs worth, not even close, because the die is not big enough.

Also considering the average CU is 62% larger than the ones in PS4 (as Cerny said at Road to PS5; Series X's CUs are also similarly larger, there could be some slight margin of error difference in CU sizes between the two however), that eats into more of the silicon budget. And the die size, again, it's only between 309 mm^2 to 320 mm^2; up to 100 mm^2 of that removed for IC doesn't leave a lot of room for the GPU, memory controllers, CPU, etc. Especially considering that the consoles are likely on 7nm DUV, which doesn't bring any density improvements over 7nm.

There's a lot of things pointing to why they don't have IC as in the way AMD's listed it. But, could they have a feature maybe present in IC (cache scrubbers?) implemented in whatever amount of L3$ (anything between 4 MB to 5 MB most likely, but probably the former) they have on their GPU, giving it some of the functionality of IC? Yes, that's possible.

But again, nothing's been confirmed.

It is correct that you cannot fit 128MB on the main APU die of the PS5 - that is impossible. The question is then where it is...just follow the Cerny breadcrumbs through history and Sony engineering across divisions

Note: Just to be clear - I am not 100% sure about this but I feel more certain now than before that the PS5 has a large unified cache and as rightfully pointed out it is impossible to fit that on the main APU die.

If it's not on the die then it's not IC. If it's off-die then the bandwidth for that cache drops significantly, and it limits your options. Also the interconnect for that off-die cache to the rest of the APU would likely be limited, and getting any data into that off-chip cache still would require accessing the GDDR6 memory pool and moving it through the GPU caches to then dump into the off-chip cache.

There's feeling something, and then there's looking at it from a more level-headed perspective. From what we've seen of the physical board design in numerous teardowns, there's nothing appearing like an off-chip cache next to the APU, and the chip on the flash memory controller is very likely just the SRAM (possibly could be PS-RAM) cache for the storage, not an IC-like cache for the GPU.

 

[assurdum]

Technically speaking, IC has not been confirmed on PS5 and there's nothing preventing that confirmation at this point since NDAs around IC are gone. There's a chance PS5 has a customized L3$ but it's not 128 MBs worth, not even close, because the die is not big enough.

Also considering the average CU is 62% larger than the ones in PS4 (as Cerny said at Road to PS5; Series X's CUs are also similarly larger, there could be some slight margin of error difference in CU sizes between the two however), that eats into more of the silicon budget. And the die size, again, it's only between 309 mm^2 to 320 mm^2; up to 100 mm^2 of that removed for IC doesn't leave a lot of room for the GPU, memory controllers, CPU, etc. Especially considering that the consoles are likely on 7nm DUV, which doesn't bring any density improvements over 7nm.

There's a lot of things pointing to why they don't have IC as in the way AMD's listed it. But, could they have a feature maybe present in IC (cache scrubbers?) implemented in whatever amount of L3$ (anything between 4 MB to 5 MB most likely, but probably the former) they have on their GPU, giving it some of the functionality of IC? Yes, that's possible.

But again, nothing's been confirmed.



If it's not on the die then it's not IC. If it's off-die then the bandwidth for that cache drops significantly, and it limits your options. Also the interconnect for that off-die cache to the rest of the APU would likely be limited, and getting any data into that off-chip cache still would require accessing the GDDR6 memory pool and moving it through the GPU caches to then dump into the off-chip cache.

There's feeling something, and then there's looking at it from a more level-headed perspective. From what we've seen of the physical board design in numerous teardowns, there's nothing appearing like an off-chip cache next to the APU, and the chip on the flash memory controller is very likely just the SRAM (possibly could be PS-RAM) cache for the storage, not an IC-like cache for the GPU.

I mean they talked a lot about how cache works on ps5 is fundamental. Now I never pointed out what exactly is it because obviously I can't know; with custom cache system I tried to stay the quite vague possible; could be even it's not something of particularly revolutionary physically, but listen them seems very effective and it's why is it one of the big thing on ps5. I doubt they would spent so many words in something which barely influence the hardware perfomance. So I want to give trust on them because they seems genuine in their assessment and they are supported to the first multiplat performance. For now of course

 

[MasterCornholio]

Goodbye

Whoever it was good choice.

 

[assurdum]

Whoever it was good choice.

Well, it was an exhausting conversation I'm no trying to say I'm exactly a tech savvy but that's annoying when you see a lot of dissonance to the other side and to see someone use their tech knowledge just to prevaricate with personal convection, it's something which really hurts my nerve . Hell I'm the first who says series X will beat ps5 in the multipiat. Now about the measure I don't think will set the world on fire but that's another story.

 

[FlyyGOD]

So do you think if Sony or one of it's studios came up with something that improves on something that came before and they ask AMD to build this said feature into the hardware for the PS5. So your saying this is ilogical? Are you then saying AMD couldn't take that very feature and add it to their next GPU line RDNA 3? PS5 very well could have features that are custom to Sony because they aren't following the path of DX12, MS and PC GPU's. There is reason why PS5 doesn't have full PC RDNA 2 features. You claim Sony fanboys are being ridiculous while at the same time pandering to the same thought process. You do realise Sony worked closely with Epic and other developers(including their own studios) for the features of the PS5. Epic are one of the most technically knowledgeable companies in the world loathe or hate their CEO.

Sony was finished with their hardware before Microsoft. Microsoft waited for RNDA 2 to be finished and yet somehow ps5 got RDNA 3 features before 2 was even completed? Ps5 has been out a week and we still have to guess whats in the gpu.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I mean they talked a lot about how cache works on ps5 is fundamental. Now I never pointed out what exactly is it because obviously I can't know; with custom cache system I tried to stay the quite vague possible; could be even it's not something of particularly revolutionary physically, but listen them seems very effective and it's why is it one of the big thing on ps5. I doubt they would spent so many words in something which barely influence the hardware perfomance. So I want to give trust on them because they seems genuine in their assessment and they are supported to the first multiplat performance. For now of course

Cache scrubbers aren't really anything new and in fact it has its own drawbacks depending on how it's implemented. They could either have patrol scrubbing or demand scrubbing. The former operates when the system is idle, the latter does error correction upon request of data from memory.

Given these consoles aren't being designed to sit around too many (if any) idle periods, PS5 probably uses demand scrubbing. However, this means the cache write line has to be flushed. Like I said, there are drawbacks to it; I don't know if Beyond3D has a user search function but try looking for 3dilienette's (I might have their name spelled slightly wrong) posts; he explained cache scrubbing and its drawbacks very well in one of the threads there, it's not just something that comes as a free lunch, so to speak. If I can, I'll try finding the post in question sometime.

At least from my more limited understanding on it, demand scrubbing would at least mean cycle time has to be spent scanning the caches to see what bits to flush and then write, but the cycle time penalty on this could just negate a fair bit of the advantages versus the traditional way things are handled. Logically speaking, the smaller your GPU and the smaller your caches, the less time you'd probably need to spend scanning to find the error to flush and rewrite, but it's still something that has to be used sparingly, and on request of the application software itself (so devs still have to integrate and schedule its use within their own game software stack).

And all of this is aside from whether or not Infinity Cache is actually present in PS5; if so then that'd just mean more physical cache to scan for their demand scrubbing.

 

[assurdum]

Sony was finished with their hardware before Microsoft. Microsoft waited for RNDA 2 to be finished and yet somehow ps5 got RDNA 3 features before 2 was even completed? Ps5 has been out a week and we still have to guess whats in the gpu.

I don't think it's entirely true Sony has finished the ps5 before the series X. About the RDNA3 thing, it's pure speculation, but geometry engine on ps5 is very particular and someone substains it could end to be used into the next Navi. There is nothing of crazy or mind-blowing about such assumption.

 

[FlyyGOD]

I don't think it's entirely true Sony has finished the ps5 before the series X. About the RDNA3 thing, it's pure speculation, but geometry engine on ps5 is very particular and someone substains it could end to be used into the next Navi. There is nothing of crazy or mind-blowing about such assumption.

You don't think its fishy that the PS5 has been out for a week and we still have to guess the capabilities of the gpu?

 

[MasterCornholio]

You don't think its fishy that the PS5 has been out for a week and we still have to guess the capabilities of the gpu?

I think it's fishy how the multiplats ate running on it. Based on what we knew before the XSX should have done much better. For whatever reason the XSX hasn't destroyed the PS5 in multiplat comparisons.

 

[assurdum]

Cache scrubbers aren't really anything new and in fact it has its own drawbacks depending on how it's implemented. They could either have patrol scrubbing or demand scrubbing. The former operates when the system is idle, the latter does error correction upon request of data from memory.

Given these consoles aren't being designed to sit around too many (if any) idle periods, PS5 probably uses demand scrubbing. However, this means the cache write line has to be flushed. Like I said, there are drawbacks to it; I don't know if Beyond3D has a user search function but try looking for 3dilienette's (I might have their name spelled slightly wrong) posts; he explained cache scrubbing and its drawbacks very well in one of the threads there, it's not just something that comes as a free lunch, so to speak. If I can, I'll try finding the post in question sometime.

At least from my more limited understanding on it, demand scrubbing would at least mean cycle time has to be spent scanning the caches to see what bits to flush and then write, but the cycle time penalty on this could just negate a fair bit of the advantages versus the traditional way things are handled. Logically speaking, the smaller your GPU and the smaller your caches, the less time you'd probably need to spend scanning to find the error to flush and rewrite, but it's still something that has to be used sparingly, and on request of the application software itself (so devs still have to integrate and schedule its use within their own game software stack).

And all of this is aside from whether or not Infinity Cache is actually present in PS5; if so then that'd just mean more physical cache to scan for their demand scrubbing.

I repeat, I'm not trying to argue what exactly is it or its drawbacks. I'm not even trying to imply you are wrong. But hearing them it works and if it's true, I can't care less, I imagine they have worked around the possible drawbacks but again I can't say something I can't know. Anyway if I'm not wrong I think to have already read the tech discussion you mention on beyond3d. From what we could know ps5 has a sort of hierarchy for the data work in the cache? In theory should be that to prevent what you mention in your explanation? Sorry if I edit my post so many times.

 

[assurdum]

You don't think its fishy that the PS5 has been out for a week and we still have to guess the capabilities of the gpu?

We already know the capability of the GPU. What we are guessing it's just the custom optimization and efficiency.

 

[MasterCornholio]

We already know the capability of the GPU. What we are guessing it's just the custom optimization and efficiency.

I honestly believe it's what's throwing everyone off.

On paper the XSX should decimate the PS5. Those extra flops and bandwidth not to mention true RDNA2 features should do it. And that's based off what many people were saying.

But these results?

They really don't prove that so there must be something wrong. We don't have confirmation on what's wrong through.

 

[John Wick]

Sony was finished with their hardware before Microsoft. Microsoft waited for RNDA 2 to be finished and yet somehow ps5 got RDNA 3 features before 2 was even completed? Ps5 has been out a week and we still have to guess whats in the gpu.

Did you even read what I wrote? What's Sony finishing their hardware before MS got to do with RDNA 3 features? Sony could have features not present in RDNA 2. AMD could well use those said features in RDNA 3. What is it about that you can't understand?
You don't need to know what's in the GPU because your not a developer. MS have revealed stuff because it's in their interests to do so as they are sharing features alongside DX12 and PC.

 

[assurdum]

I honestly believe it's what's throwing everyone off.

On paper the XSX should decimate the PS5. Those extra flops and bandwidth not to mention true RDNA2 features should do it. And that's based off what many people were saying.

But these results?

They really don't prove that so there must be something wrong. We don't have confirmation on what's wrong through.

Well decimate is a big word. Again to have 12 TF doesn't means you can fully utilize it. Now if we have to trust to the simple words, ps5 is thinking to squeeze everything it has. Series X ... well not seems to me? Higher CUs counts seems pointless without a proper bandwidth, or the infinity cache alternative. And that splitted solution....A lot of things put on series X smells of higher specs possible, 12 TF or dead, than a misurate balance in the perfomance. But I could be wrong.

 

[Bogroll]

I honestly believe it's what's throwing everyone off.

On paper the XSX should decimate the PS5. Those extra flops and bandwidth not to mention true RDNA2 features should do it. And that's based off what many people were saying.

But these results?

They really don't prove that so there must be something wrong. We don't have confirmation on what's wrong through.

Search AC Valhalla on a 3600 5700xt 1440p at high settings, it stay above 60fps. Yes PS5 rez goes higher as it should more powerful gpu. SX drops fps at 1440p, its performing worse than a 5700xt.
Somethings not right with the SX, Ps5 is where I would expect going off PC's as a rough guide.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Search AC Valhalla on a 3600 5700xt 1440p at high settings, it stay above 60fps. Yes PS5 rez goes higher as it should more powerful gpu. SX drops fps at 1440p, its performing worse than a 5700xt.
Somethings not right with the SX, Ps5 is where I would expect going PC's as a rough guide.

Is it possible that it's just tools or is it something else?

The results are really strange after all the claims of having the most powerful system.

 

[Bogroll]

Is it possible that it's just tools or is it something else?

The results are really strange after all the claims of having the most powerful system.

God knows but going off PC performance the Ps5 is not punching above its weight like people to seem think, the SX is punching below its weight and struggling at that.

 

[assurdum]

God knows but going off PC performance the Ps5 is not punching above its weight like people to seem think, the SX is punching below its weight and struggling at that.

Bandwidth bottlenecks?

 

[MasterCornholio]

God knows but going off PC performance the Ps5 is not punching above its weight like people to seem think, the SX is punching below its weight and struggling at that.

Just speculating here.

Is it possible for the XSX to have some sort of hardware issue that prevents it from outperforming the PS5?

If so what the heck could it be?

 

[FritzJ92]

Just speculating here.

Is it possible for the XSX to have some sort of hardware issue that prevents it from outperforming the PS5?

If so what the heck could it be?

Or Software... We've seen driver updates on PC improve framerates, could be a similar situation

 

[Bogroll]

Bandwidth bottlenecks?

Just speculating here.

Is it possible for the XSX to have some sort of hardware issue that prevents it from outperforming the PS5?

If so what the heck could it be?

It may even be just simply not having enough time to put into it with Covid situation etc on top of having to put games out on XSS and XSX. Time management situation, but all just a guess from me.

 

[MasterCornholio]

It may even be just simply not having enough time to put into it with Covid situation etc on top of having to put games out on XSS and XSX. Time management situation, but all just a guess from me.

Sony was affected by covid-19 as well. That could explain why some features are missing from the PS5 and the general bugs that it has. Yet software on the platform is in a good state.

 

[Bogroll]

Sony was affected by covid-19 as well. That could explain why some features are missing from the PS5 and the general bugs that it has. Yet software on the platform is in a good state.

Yes true but maybe more platforms on Xbox took its toll at the end on top of deadlines and Covid but like I said just a guess.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Yes true but maybe more platforms on Xbox took its toll at the end on top of deadlines and Covid but like I said just a guess.

I read that there's more overhead due to the GDK having to support so many different platforms. I'm not sure if that overhead will ever be eliminated.

 

[Bogroll]

I read that there's more overhead due to the GDK having to support so many different platforms. I'm not sure if that overhead will ever be eliminated.

And the game is even more buggy than normal AC releases.

 

[assurdum]

It may even be just simply not having enough time to put into it with Covid situation etc on top of having to put games out on XSS and XSX. Time management situation, but all just a guess from me.

Not to sound pedantic but I don't think it's the only cause or at least not the more meaningful.

 

[Topher]

Just speculating here.

Is it possible for the XSX to have some sort of hardware issue that prevents it from outperforming the PS5?

If so what the heck could it be?

I keep going back to Cerny's presentation and how the variable clocks of PS5 along with the shared power between CPU and GPU work together with SmartShift. None of that (outside of the max frequency) is accounted for in a teraflop calculation. And then I hear guys like Linneman (sp?) on DF talk about how devs speak so positively about the PS5. I'm no game dev, but it just sounds to me like PS5 is extremely flexible. Cerny also mentioned how difficult it is to fully utilize all the CUs after a certain point and when I look at PC GPUs and how the benchmarks rarely are completely in line with the teraflop rating....it kind of makes sense. PS3 was supposedly more powerful overall than 360 due to the possibilities of the Cell processor, but the difficulty in developing for it caused third party games to suffer badly. So is it possible Cerny made PS5 incredibly easy to develop for by being more flexible? I don't know. Like you, I'm just speculating here.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I keep going back to Cerny's presentation and how the variable clocks of PS5 along with the shared power between CPU and GPU work together with SmartShift. None of that (outside of the max frequency) is accounted for in a teraflop calculation. And then I hear guys like Linneman (sp?) on DF talk about how devs speak so positively about the PS5. I'm no game dev, but it just sounds to me like PS5 is extremely flexible. Cerny also mentioned how difficult it is to fully utilize all the CUs after a certain point and when I look at PC GPUs and how the benchmarks rarely are completely in line with the teraflop rating....it kind of makes sense. PS3 was supposedly more powerful overall than 360 due to the possibilities of the Cell processor, but the difficulty in developing for it caused third party games to suffer badly. So is it possible Cerny made PS5 incredibly easy to develop for by being more flexible? I don't know. Like you, I'm just speculating here.

That definitely could be a reason since ease of development was a focus for Cerny. And I'm pretty sure he mad the PS5s unique features easy to take advantage of. Basically by cutting down the time for all then basic stuff, developers have more time for everything else.

 

[cosmicom]

what happens when you overclock you GPU?? eeeeh

 

[Insane Metal]

Lol now people are getting desperate because the 52CUs and 12TF machine doesn't beat the 36CU/10 TF machine.

Please Microsoft overclock the console! PLEEEASEEEE

 

[cosmicom]

Lol now people are getting desperate because the 52CUs and 12TF machine doesn't beat the 36CU/10 TF machine.

it´s easier porting ps4 games to less CUs overclocked, than porting to more CUs at less speed with poor optimization/tools.

The prize is unstable GPU and constant errors.

It´s because you will lose power with more CUs, if you just press a button (the losses of coordination between more CUs), that´s why ps5 and Series X ports will be equal with poor optimization.

But with the right optimization and tools? Xbox Series X will overpower ps5.

 

[Handy Fake]

what happens when you overclock you GPU?? eeeeh

Poor Gavin. All the bad PS5 things happen to him.

 

[Handy Fake]

it´s easier porting ps4 games to less CUs overclocked, than porting to more CUs at less speed with poor optimization/tools.

The prize is unstable GPU and constant errors.

It´s because you will lose power with more CUs, if you just press a button (the losses of coordination between more CUs), that´s why ps5 and Series X ports will be equal with poor optimization.

But with the right optimization and tools? Xbox Series X will overpower ps5.

The GPU isn't overclocked, RDNA2 is built to run at that speed. If anything it's underclocked because the logic in the architecture starts breaking down at higher speeds.

 

[Physiognomonics]

It may even be just simply not having enough time to put into it with Covid situation etc on top of having to put games out on XSS and XSX. Time management situation, but all just a guess from me.

We see similar performance bottleneck on Halo MCC (from 120fps to 60fps because of one fire + 3NPCs), and that's a XDK game, not GDK. I think the problem is architectural.

 

[cosmicom]

The GPU isn't overclocked, RDNA2 is built to run at that speed. If anything it's underclocked because the logic in the architecture starts breaking down at higher speeds.

2,23GHZ with THIS??? good luck:

 

[Handy Fake]

2,23GHZ with THIS??? good luck:

*sigh*

 

[cosmicom]

*sigh*

Everybody knows than overclocking your GPU causes errors and makes it unstable.

AMD allows overclocking with HEAVY refrigeration and high prize:

Now, try 2,23GHZ with a 500$ machine, try CONSTANT boost GPU speed, and see what happens.

 

[Insane Metal]

*sigh*

Unbelievable.