I wish Israel just had the balls to take the entire region of Palestine instead of this slow strangulation of the Palestinian people. Instead of coming to terms with the fact that conquering and colonizing a region also means having to deal with having a large minority or even majority of natives, much like South Africa had to eventually accept, Israel seems intent on patiently waiting until most Palestinians have either fled or died. Absolutely fucking infuriating. I hope more and more people will realize that a two-state solution is nothing but a red herring, used to distract from the actual ethnic cleansing going on. The world needs to accept that Israel staying a Jewish state is both immoral and impossible and that a single secular state for Israeli's and Palestinians is the only real solution.
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Israel approves construction of thousands of illegal homes in West Bank
- Thread starter shinobi602
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If this situation isn't handled well. It has all the trappings of a World War trigger. Like the Arab world isn't just going to ignore this. Iran will pull out of the deal, Jordan and similar countries will try counter Israel's hostility, that's before even considering how ISIS would come into play.
Have you seen the kind of impact the Syrian war has had on Western countries lately? Just imagine the middle east blowing up and what that could mean to the world.
JordanN
Banned
Israel has a peace treaty in place. Considering last time they got attacked, they wiped out their armies and gained large amounts of territory, going at them a 4th time would mean no going back.
Mahadev
Member
It's ethnic cleansing. Bit by bit they're driving out of the West Bank the Palestinian population.
TestOfTide
Banned
Because if Israel actually goes through with a one state solution, it would only further embolden the racist far right AND would serve as a useful recruiting tool for terrorist groups like ISIS.
Israel's far right leadership won't simply stop with securing Palestine for themselves. They'll likely deport, imprison, and/or slaughter any Arabs they feel aren't "Pro-Israel" enough.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Egypt and Jordan don't give two craps. And neither does much of the other Arab world. This isn't the first time settlements are built, and not the last. Statements of a "trigger" or a "world war" are hyperbolic silliness. Nothing will be triggered.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Because by doing this they are ruining any chances of a two-state solution.
If Israel should be a Jewish-majority state, there needs to be either a separate Palestinian state, or they need to give fewer rights to Palestinians living in Israel (essentially apartheid). By sabotaging the former, they are choosing the latter
Then it means the entire world will be complicit in genocide and apartheid. A sad state of things.
Israel operates the West Bank and Gaza Strip as open-air prisons for anyone unfortunate enough to have been born there. Some of the jail cells are being converted into condos.
Ethnic cleansing by degrees.
Israel considers itself to be a Jewish state. If the one state solution is chosen, then Israel cannot be a free democracy and a Jewish state at the same time, as the palestinans would be a majority of the people. So, the only option is for Israel at that point to either become fully democratic and step away from it's exclusive, jewish ambitions and embrace all religions, or become an apartheid states were jews would have full rights while palestinians would not.
So in essence, choosing the one state solution is effectively equal to choosing apartheid, since the whole point is to become one unified Jewish state.
Israel destroys people's homes and lives to build on occupied land
Some Palestinians retaliate violently using the only resources they have
Israel calls Palestinians terrorists who attack Israelis unprovoked to justify sending troops in.
The cycle continues
Terrorism is awful, but there isn't a Western country on earth who wouldn't turn to violence if someone tried taking their land. Hell, the US dropped atomic bombs when their soil was attacked. How anyone can defend Israel is beyond me.
Some Palestinians retaliate violently using the only resources they have
Israel calls Palestinians terrorists who attack Israelis unprovoked to justify sending troops in.
The cycle continues
Terrorism is awful, but there isn't a Western country on earth who wouldn't turn to violence if someone tried taking their land. Hell, the US dropped atomic bombs when their soil was attacked. How anyone can defend Israel is beyond me.
JordanN
Banned
Except they're using terrorism to just kill civilians. It has nothing to do with land Israel controls.
Israel also had no settlements before 1967 and they were still under constant threat of invasion.
Imagine if the Mexican government issued a permit for mexicans to build new homes in california and all of their taxes would be collected by the mexican government instead of the us goverment. And if anyone took issue with that, mexican soldiers would claim their right to defend themselves from terrorists.
That won't happen of course, since the US army would tear those homes down and possibly declare war on Mexico. But the PA doesn't have those options.
The entire country is a settlement, killing and displacing the native population. The Nakba didn't occur because Palestinians collectively decided to make themselves refugees, they were forcibly removed from their homes.
So nothing will change.
CornBurrito
Member
How long do Prime Ministers serve in Israel? I feel like Netanyahu's been in charge for forever.
This is his fourth term as Prime Minister.
1996 - 1999
2009 -2013
2013 - 2015
2015 - ????
DerZuhälter
Member
Well, no. What is being done right now is holding the current status quo. Keeping Palastine from being recognized internationally as a state with east Jerusalem as capital (two state solution), as well as denying the option of a one state solution with the entire palastinian autonomuous territories being transformed into Israeli territory, as this would go along with granting Israeli citizenship and rights to every Palastinian.
thequestion
Member
I believe the vote for the embassy to move is in May. So, WW3 in June? Settlement disputed will be the least of our worries. Scary shit is going down, frighteningly soon.
DerZuhälter;228996944 said:
That's seemingly how it's being play. They're stalling while they're continuing to settlement activities. The long game here by the right wing and the ultra conservatives is to strive for a greater state of Israel, a one state for the jewish people of Israel, that includes the occupied palestinian territories. The most efficient way to make that happen is by slowly encroaching on the land, instead of a full scale war, as that would be harder to spin. By stealing land a little at the time, Palestinian territory is slowly being absorbed by the Jewish state of Israel.
Looking ahead, the status quo can't last as long as, you know, Israel is continuing to steal land. By continuing the settlements, they are essentially abandoning the two state solution. The two are not compatible.
TDLink
Member
A lot of misinformation in this thread, including the title.
Will some of you guys please educate yourselves on this matter instead of blindly believing everything? Not saying Israel is always in the right (they aren't) but they're also not some great evil and the amount of anti-Israel sentiment here on GAF is ridiculous.
"East Jerusalem" is part of Israel. The Palestinians claim it's their capital (well they want to claim all of Jerusalem really) but that doesn't make it true. Tons of people of all three major religions live in East Jerusalem. That section of the city includes the "Old City" and holy sites of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Including the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, Dome of the Rock and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. It's not "part of Palestine". It's part of Israel. Everyone living there is already Israeli. New people living there are not illegal settlements, they're just...more people moving into that section of the city.
This isn't true at all. People can enter and exit Palestinian regions when they want. There are a ton of Palestinians who have left and are living in other parts of the world.
This will never happen in this case. The other muslim countries hate the Palestinians. They basically were rejected from those countries. People here like to shit on Israel, but Jordan and Egypt are also on the border and they essentially put them in the situation they are in.
The entire world does this all the time. They're doing it right now with Syria. Remember Rwanda? Most people don't give a shit, which is very sad but clearly isn't going to change.
That said, genocide isn't what's happening in Israel and Palestine anyways. Apartheid, yeah, a bit. And it's terrible. At the same time though you have tons of Muslims living in Israel who aren't discriminated against, which is good.
Will some of you guys please educate yourselves on this matter instead of blindly believing everything? Not saying Israel is always in the right (they aren't) but they're also not some great evil and the amount of anti-Israel sentiment here on GAF is ridiculous.
"East Jerusalem" is part of Israel. The Palestinians claim it's their capital (well they want to claim all of Jerusalem really) but that doesn't make it true. Tons of people of all three major religions live in East Jerusalem. That section of the city includes the "Old City" and holy sites of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Including the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, Dome of the Rock and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. It's not "part of Palestine". It's part of Israel. Everyone living there is already Israeli. New people living there are not illegal settlements, they're just...more people moving into that section of the city.
This isn't true at all. People can enter and exit Palestinian regions when they want. There are a ton of Palestinians who have left and are living in other parts of the world.
This will never happen in this case. The other muslim countries hate the Palestinians. They basically were rejected from those countries. People here like to shit on Israel, but Jordan and Egypt are also on the border and they essentially put them in the situation they are in.
The entire world does this all the time. They're doing it right now with Syria. Remember Rwanda? Most people don't give a shit, which is very sad but clearly isn't going to change.
That said, genocide isn't what's happening in Israel and Palestine anyways. Apartheid, yeah, a bit. And it's terrible. At the same time though you have tons of Muslims living in Israel who aren't discriminated against, which is good.
Experimenter
Member
Unlike the US, Prime Ministers can serve for as many times they want, as long as they are chosen.
Wow. I'm not going to have the energy to argue with someone so opinionated, but there's a lot of horseshit in there.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Genocide is a reckless word to use and borderline offensive to those cultures that have actually suffered it. Armenians, European Jews, Rwandans, Bosnians, Ukrainians, Cambodians, and Nanking Chinese were actual genocides that killed hundreds of thousands to scores of millions from a timeline of just a few months to a year or two. Think about that scope. This is not a genocide. Isolationism and apartheid? Arguably, yes.
And genocide was done in brutal execution ways, cold and calculated. Lined up and murdered. Burned. Stock piled bodies. Genocide is not what's happening here.
Palestinian population in both territories combined has risen considerably from 2010 4.1M to 4.6M in 2014.
The ironic thing is it's always the super religious who are the most biggoted. My step family lived in Israel for something like 20 years and they had no good things to say about the ultra orthodox. Anecdotally they said everyone who they knew who had ever had any social experience with them found out they were mostly awful, awful people.
East Jerusalem was annexed. The problem with these settlements is that they are moving people into territory that isn't really theirs.
Sad reality, no country steps in and stops all these human right violations.
What he said isnt misogynistic anyways. Sexist, yeah, a bit. And it's terrible. At the same time though you have tons of Women who weren't discriminated against by Drumpf, which is good.
Do you seriously think that sounds good?
This is like downplaying the misogynistic comments from Drumpf.
What he said isnt misogynistic anyways. Sexist, yeah, a bit. And it's terrible. At the same time though you have tons of Women who weren't discriminated against by Drumpf, which is good.
Do you seriously think that sounds good?
TDLink
Member
Maybe you shouldn't be on a message board if you can't handle talking to people with opinions. Saying it's horseshit doesn't make it a fact.
In 1948, after the creation of the State of Israel, Israel and Jordan agreed to split the city even though both wanted total control of it. This was during the Arab-Israeli war. This was also a time prior to the modern Palestinians or the "West Bank" region existing whatsoever. At this point, despite an agreement, east Jerusalem was considered "Annexed" by Jordan.
Israel captured it in 67 during the Six-Day war, from Jordan. Jordan now has never stated a claim to East Jerusalem. I would say that makes it part of Israel. You could claim they've been illegally occupying it for 50 years, but that's also the majority of time they have existed as a country. And other countries throughout history have assimilated land into their borders (though this isn't even that case as East Jerusalem exists within the border of what was considered Israel when it was established in 48 anyways). Regardless of that, the modern Palestinians never "owned" East Jerusalem, it was the Jordanians. Only in 88 after the Palestinian Declaration of Independence did they lay claim to Jerusalem as their capital. Not just East Jerusalem, mind you, but all of it. This would essentially be like if the Confederate states declared independence from the Union and decided that D.C. would be their capital anyways, despite it being the capital of the country they are seceding from.
Absolutely a false comparison, don't put words in my mouth. I don't support Trump and his misogyny or sexism, don't try to drag that into this conversation.
There's a difference between the Palestinians and millions Israeli Muslims. Somehow these millions of Muslims live just fine in Israel and have equal rights with Jews (and Christians) despite it being called a "Jewish State". This is why Israel is still called a democracy in the first place. The Palestinian situation is separate from that and not really about their religion at all.
Dude Abides
Banned
Why is it Jordan and Egypt's responsibility to take in people ethnically cleansed by Israel to facilitate Israel's colonization of the entire territory?
I'm not putting any words in your mouth.....suprisingly your own sentence doesnt sound "balanced" when used for another subject, clearly your sentence isnt balanced.
This isnt about the democracy of Israel and "Jewish State", it isnt about the millions (?) of Israeli Muslims that are fairly treated (?). This is about the illegal occupation and encroachment of land from Palestine. Please dont take a tangent about the millions (?) of Israeli Muslims in Israel. The encroachment of lands will mean Palestine (of all religions) suffering.
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
They are stealing the land outside of their boarders.. (Pulling a US with Mexico).
zer0blivion
Member
TDLink
Member
How exactly is Israel "Ethnically cleansing" Palestinians? This is ridiculous hyperbole. Especially considering Ethnic Cleansing is the prime reason Israel exists as it does today.
The "West Bank" -was- part of Jordan. They gave it up. The current situation is absolutely as much their fault as Israel's. Why is the onus entirely on Israel? Egypt has a massive wall at their border with the Gaza Strip, intentionally to keep the Palestinians out of their country. Why is that Israel's fault?
I'm not saying Israel is treating the Palestinians great, clearly they aren't. But that poor treatment goes both ways. Whatever Israel does, they don't send suicide bombers into the Palestinian regions or teach kids to hate them in the same way that Palestinians have been documented to do. Israel has the most sophisticated localized missile defense system in the world because of all the rockets the Palestinians send into the country.
I want to also point out that obviously there are a lot of Palestinians who want nothing to do with those terrorist actions, just as there are a lot of Israelis that want nothing to do with oppressing the Palestinians. There are always a ton of innocent people on both sides that will suffer in any conflict like this.
The fact of the matter is Israel could wipe the Palestinians out of existence if they really wanted to, but they don't. There has been obvious mistreatment of the Palestinians, but that also doesn't justify the acts of terrorism they perpetrate indiscriminately on people in Israel. And those very acts are Israel's justification for their own actions. It's circular logic and why the conflict has gone on so long. Where's the chicken and where's the egg? And of course it was only agitated when Hamas, a recognized terrorist organization, co-opted the Palestinian government in 2006. All of the recent trouble has really stemmed from that. I have only been to Israel once, back in 2000, pre-Hamas. When I went there was no grand oppression of Palestinian peoples happening. I freely went all over Jerusalem (including the Eastern parts). I freely went into Bethlehem. I freely went into other modern Palestinian regions.
What is certain though is that Israel existed prior to the modern Palestinian regions, which have only recently been recognized by the UN as a state of its own. Prior to that these regions were just...part of Israel. And prior to that, the West Bank was part of Jordan and the Gaza strip was part of Egypt. Israel granted the Gaza strip self-governance in 94, but they didn't proclaim them a separate country from Israel.
The Jordanians and Egyptians want nothing to do with the Palestinians and both left them in their current predicament
Apartheid and Genocide aren't the same thing. And they certainly aren't comparable to sexism. I don't support any of the aforementioned acts, obviously. You're trying to create a false equivalency with what I was saying to diminish my posts and create a dogpile rather than actually discussing the topic.
The fact of the matter is all of the current Palestinian land was essentially "Given" to them by Israel, without Israel ever declaring them a separate country. This is why the entire 1 state/2 state solution debate exists.
Oh.
TDLink
Member
Yes. They proclaimed East Jerusalem (where all the holy sites are) is their capital, but no one actually acknowledges that. Even the UN (who only in 2015 acknowledged them as their own separate state from Israel). Their actual capital is Ramallah. Jerusalem, the city, as a whole, is considered part of Israel.
...yeah by Israel and people like you.
Then I'll say I'm wrong for now.
TDLink
Member
Please tell the Israeli citizens who have been living in "East Jerusalem" for decades (before this settlement debate started in the last few years) that they are no longer living in Israel and are illegally settling Palestinian land.
It's not genocide, it's just ethnic cleansing. No big deal.
Please tell the Palestinians who are evicted from their homes that are later bulldozed that they are no longer living in a home that belonged to them and illegally settling on Israeli settlement land that will be occupied by racist lunatics from Europe and America who wish to see the Palestinians completely washed from 'their' land.
All kinds of levels of crazy in this video.
Your whataboutisms don't have much meaning here - I can argue just fine, but not in the face of someone who has some distorted alternate reality going on in their heads.
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