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[Mr Git]

I'm not saying Israel is treating the Palestinians great, clearly they aren't. But that poor treatment goes both ways. Whatever Israel does, they don't send suicide bombers into the Palestinian regions or teach kids to hate them in the same way that Palestinians have been documented to do. Israel has the most sophisticated localized missile defense system in the world because of all the rockets the Palestinians send into the country.

No, not suicide bombers. Israel have much better technology and use that instead. Liberally.

 

[Principate]

Except they're using terrorism to just kill civilians. It has nothing to do with land Israel controls.

Israel also had no settlements before 1967 and they were still under constant threat of invasion.

Eh tbf a significant portion if not the majority of people killed in in the second world war were civilians which is his point really. They really weren't simply going after the military outposts but literally everyone. That was true of all major sides in that war. It's because of that the strictness in definition of war crimes were established. When it comes to existential threats it can get very, very messy.

 

[TDLink]

It's not genocide, it's just ethnic cleansing. No big deal.



Please tell the Palestinians who are evicted from their homes that are later bulldozed that they are no longer living in a home that belonged to them and illegally settling on Israeli settlement land that will be occupied by racist lunatics from Europe and America who wish to see the Palestinians completely washed from 'their' land.

I don't wish to see the Palestinians wiped off the face of the earth or anything like that. I know there are people who do, and I don't support those people. What I am saying is the land that is currently the State of Palestine was given to them by Israel. This current State of Palestine never existed before. It was just Israel. Before that it was Jordan and Egypt. The Palestinians are primarily people from -those- countries...and those countries want nothing to do with them. Additionally, when Israel did give the Palestinians the land that currently makes up the region, they gave them all sort of fully functioning facilities that the Palestinians wrecked and didn't want to use because they were made by Israelis.

Let's not pretend there isn't some deep seated hate here at the core of this issue.

I personally harbour no hate towards the Palestinians or the Israelis. I don't think anyone should. There are clearly bad actions being undertaken by both sides though and understanding the history is important. And recognizing that the actions are disproportionate is also important.

Your whataboutisms don't have much meaning here - I can argue just fine, but not in the face of someone who has some distorted alternate reality going on in their heads.

I've brought up the historical facts of the region, somewhat in depth, in several posts in this topic. No one wants to acknowledge that though and instead just hate. Have you considered that you're believing the alternate reality? Because a lot of people act like Israel has always been oppressing Palestinians when that is not the case whatsoever. What's currently happening is a product of that history, which no one seems to want to acknowledge...because if you acknowledge it you'll realize there are other players here than just Israel.

 

[Dopus]

No, not suicide bombers. Israel have much better technology and use that instead. Liberally.

For sure. Dahiya doctrine is employed and more settlements are built. It's not about Palestinians being peaceful, the West Bank is proof of that. Israel do as they please and only in the places they received actual armed resistance has it stopped the encroachment of land and the further stealing of it.

 

[TDLink]

No, not suicide bombers. Israel have much better technology and use that instead. Liberally.

The 2014 Gaza conflict wasn't a random act of violence. It was a response to actions started by Hamas. That picture is a result of escalation that started with an attack on Israeli civilians. I agree Israel went to far in that conflict. I don't think they're infallible and that they've done no wrong. No situation is black and white, is what I'm saying. Too many people on this board are quick to completely vilify Israel. Just the fact that I have defended some aspects of Israel is causing people here to pile on me, which is ridiculous.

Overall they're a pretty good country that is multicultural in a region that otherwise isn't and they make a lot of advances in various fields. There's a reason the western world largely supports the country and literally created it. Their government is occasionally over-zealous, and I don't support those actions. But it's clear some people have a pure hate for the country.

 

[Dopus]

I don't wish to see the Palestinians wiped off the face of the earth or anything like that. I know there are people who do, and I don't support those people. What I am saying is the land that is currently the State of Palestine was given to them by Israel. This current State of Palestine never existed before. It was just Israel. Before that it was Jordan and Egypt. The Palestinians are primarily people from -those- countries...and those countries want nothing to do with them. Additionally, when Israel did give the Palestinians the land that currently makes up the region, they gave them all sort of fully functioning facilities that the Palestinians wrecked and didn't want to use because they were made by Israelis.

Let's not pretend there isn't some deep seated hate here at the core of this issue.

I personally harbour no hate towards the Palestinians or the Israelis. I don't think anyone should. There are clearly bad actions being undertaken by both sides though and understanding the history is important. And recognizing that the actions are disproportionate is also important.



I've brought up the historical facts of the region, somewhat in depth, in several posts in this topic. No one wants to acknowledge that though and instead just hate. Have you considered that you're believing the alternate reality? Because a lot of people act like Israel has always been oppressing Palestinians when that is not the case whatsoever. What's currently happening is a product of that history, which no one seems to want to acknowledge...because if you acknowledge it you'll realize there are other players here than just Israel.

Listen. Don't give us that "both sides" argument. You say that what is happening is a "product of history" as if to provide a certain justification for the disgusting behaviour shown by Israel.

Tell us, what are the Palestinians actually supposed to do here in this situation? Israel right now are so clearly the oppressors, it's obvious to anyone who doesn't look at it through the lens of Zionism. You'll probably pull out the peace card but if you're being honest you'd see that Israel have no intention of it and are the ones who stifle the talks.

Peaceful protest doesn't work as demonstrated in the West Bank. Israel use it to their advantage. Clearly, you can see with all the settlements being built. These are a subjugated, beaten, and suppressed people. The Israeli state are engaged in ethnic cleansing. It's as simple as that.

 

[TDLink]

Listen. Don't give us that "both sides" argument. You say that what is happening is a "product of history" as if to provide a certain justification for the disgusting behaviour shown by Israel.

Tell us, what are the Palestinians actually supposed to do here in this situation? Israel right now are so clearly the oppressors, it's obvious to anyone who doesn't look at it through the lens of Zionism. You'll probably pull out the peace card but if you're being honest you'd see that Israel have no intention of it and are the ones who stifle the talks.

Peaceful protest doesn't work as demonstrated in the West Bank. Israel use it to their advantage. Clearly, you can see with all the settlements being built. These are a subjugated, beaten, and suppressed people. The Israeli state are engaged in ethnic cleansing. It's as simple as that.

I am not denying the Israelis are oppressing Palestinians in some ways. But there very clearly -are- crimes being committed on both sides. I don't understand how you can say one is but the other isn't. Hamas is an acknowledged terrorist organization and they took over the Palestinian government a decade ago. That is what led to all his conflict. The rocket attacks, suicide bombings, kidnappings, tunnels constructed only with the purpose of attacking Israel...all of those things are also "disgusting behaviour". I don't know why you or others want to try to deny that.

Of course there won't be peace, but that's not entirely on Israel either. The Palestinians are very clear that they want to completely control Jerusalem at bare minimum, which almost always is the sticking point in any peace talks that arise. Beyond that, in the past the Palestinians have called for the completely extermination of the Israelis, which is never something Israel has called for conversely. I do believe Israel does not want a two state solution, they want only a one state one. One Israel, with the Palestinians as part of it. I'm not saying I agree with that. I am just saying these are the reasons peace doesn't happen. It's not just Israel, it is in fact both sides.

What should the Palestinians do? I don't know. There's no good answer. That's the problem. But I am also saying it is not just Israel that is their problem here. Again, Egypt is what started this in the first place by segregating the Gaza Strip from the rest of their country. And they to this day continue to have a much harsher border with Gaza than Gaza does with the rest of Israel.

How is ethnic cleansing happening here? Again, the Israelis are not trying to kill all Palestinians or run them out of the country even. There are millions of other Muslims living in Israel peacefully and citizens with full and equal rights.

 

[Dopus]

The 2014 Gaza conflict wasn't a random act of violence. It was a response to actions started by Hamas. That picture is a result of escalation that started with an attack on Israeli civilians. I agree Israel went to far in that conflict. I don't think they're infallible and that they've done no wrong. No situation is black and white, is what I'm saying. Too many people on this board are quick to completely vilify Israel. Just the fact that I have defended some aspects of Israel is causing people here to pile on me, which is ridiculous.

Overall they're a pretty good country that is multicultural in a region that otherwise isn't and they make a lot of advances in various fields. There's a reason the western world largely supports the country and literally created it. Their government is occasionally over-zealous, and I don't support those actions. But it's clear some people have a pure hate for the country.

Well this is just revisionism.

It wasn't a response for the kidnappings. Need I remind you that the Israeli state had a gag order on the media to report the well know fact that the teens had already been killed - so the operation to secure their release was a ruse. It was really about the Palestinian Unity Government and a response to it. While the rest of the world saw this as progress, Netanyahu felt it a threat and the deaths of those teens proved to be an adequate basis for the punishment of the Palestinian people and Gaza - at least in his mind.

In addition, the Goldstone report states that the Israel's actions were "a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability".

What is black and white is that Israel have no intention of peace with the Palestinians. Right now, it serves as no benefit to them. Peaceful protests don't work. Violent ones at the very least curb Israeli encroachment of land but Israel punish them through other means. i.e dropping bombs on them, limiting aid and of course the blockade of the Gaza Strip.

So defend Israel it if you so please, but don't be surprised if people call you out on it. It's indefensible. Don't turn this into people just hating the country, there are justifiable reasons for peoples stances in this thread. You can bury your head in the sand if you so please but don't tell us to.

 

[kingkaiser]

Israel is facing a serious dilemma. They either show strength through settling and population growth or they choose for a peaceful coexistence that will limit their abilities and put them on a constant threat of extinction.

The Jews learned a very important message after the holocaust. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

 

[samn]

Obama administration sent $221 million in aid to Palestine mere hours before Trump's inauguration

This along with the abstain from voting sort of feels like they knew shit was going to get real bad in the immediate future.

It was approved by congress, not unexpected, nothing to see here

 

[Dopus]

Israel is facing a serious dilemma. They either show strength through settling and population growth or they choose for a peaceful coexistence that will limit their abilities and put them on a constant threat of extinction.

The Jews learned a very important message after the holocaust. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

What a load of horseshit. Unbelievable.

 

[astroturfing]

since a lot of people don't believe that genocidal extremists have any power in Israel, here's a good reminder:

Dov Lior, a Chief Rabbi in Israel (probably popular among settlers):

Lior has legitimized by a halakha ruling the killing of non-Jews during wartime.[15] He asserted that Jewish women should not use sperm donated by a non-Jewish man, and a baby born through such an insemination will have the "negative genetic traits that characterize non-Jews", and that, "Gentile sperm leads to barbaric offspring".[16]

In 2007, commenting on the situation of African refugees in Israel, Lior said that a much more important issue was the situation of Jewish settlers -"refugees" - expelled from Gaza in 2005.[17]

Leading rabbis have testified that Lior was the source of rulings labeling the late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin a "rodef" and a "moser" (a traitor who endangers Jewish lives). Rabin's assassin is known to have visited Lior. Baruch Goldstein also met with Lior. After Goldstein murdered 29 Palestinian worshipers at the Cave of the Patriarchs, Lior described Goldstein as "holier than all the martyrs of the Holocaust". [18][19]

In June 2011, Lior was arrested by Israeli police and questioned on suspicion of inciting violence for endorsing a religious book, the King's Torah, that gives Jews permission to kill innocent non-Jews, including babies.[20] Lior had been summoned for questioning by authorities, but refused to appear. Spontaneous demonstrations erupted in and around Jerusalem as outraged supporters assembled in various parts of the city and on Route 1 to protest Lior's arrest. Israeli chief rabbis Yona Metzger and Shlomo Amar condemned the arrest as a "grave offense to an important rabbi's honor", and 25 members of the Knesset signed a petition denouncing it as "shameful" and as having been orchestrated by Deputy State Prosecutor Shai Nitzan. Lior was released after an hour of questioning.[21][22]

Both opposition leader Tzipi Livni and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called for a full judicial investigation of Lior's remarks and said that rabbis were not above the law.[23]

In September 2011, he stated that Arabs are "evil camel riders".[24]

In 2012, Lior called US President Barack Obama a racial slur "kushi of the West", and likened him to the genocidal enemy of the Jews, Haman. He also compared Western European leaders to Nazi collaborators.[25]

In July 2014, he said it was acceptable to kill Palestinian civilians and destroy the entire Gaza Strip in order to protect Jewish people in the South.[26][27]

In November 2015, during a eulogy at a funeral in Jerusalem for a father and son killed in West Bank, Lior said of the Paris attacks: "The wicked ones in blood-soaked Europe deserve it for what they did to our people 70 years ago."

how can a man like this have ANY position of authority (religious or otherwise) in a country that is supposed to be tolerant, democratic and have westernized values?

also i wonder, would Trump shake this man's hand?

Israel is facing a serious dilemma. They either show strength through settling and population growth or they choose for a peaceful coexistence that will limit their abilities and put them on a constant threat of extinction.

The Jews learned a very important message after the holocaust. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

good god... wow.

so.. it would be ok for the rest of the world to be dominant (meaning violent) and dictate Israel's fate? just using your logic.

fucking disgusting post btw. people like you watch on the sidelines and let a genocide happen.

 

[Sunster]

Israel is facing a serious dilemma. They either show strength through settling and population growth or they choose for a peaceful coexistence that will limit their abilities and put them on a constant threat of extinction.

The Jews learned a very important message after the holocaust. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

huh.

 

[Breads]

Support for Israel here is support for apartheid/ oppression.

Israel is facing a serious dilemma. They either show strength through settling and population growth or they choose for a peaceful coexistence that will limit their abilities and put them on a constant threat of extinction.

The Jews learned a very important message after the holocaust. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

Not sure what to make out of this platitude. It can be interpretted in many ways. Should we look the other way because it benefits us or should we fund rebel groups to attack Israel? Your post allows for both.

 

[Kthulhu]

He's cool with it.

Lots of Dems too. So we won't even be able to stop them from supporting this.

 

[Barzul]

Israel is facing a serious dilemma. They either show strength through settling and population growth or they choose for a peaceful coexistence that will limit their abilities and put them on a constant threat of extinction.

The Jews learned a very important message after the holocaust. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

What the hell does this actually mean? Who has actually operated like this bar Nazi Germany? I mean this in a world stage not within the country.

 

[Deadbeat]

What the hell does this actually mean? Who has actually operated like this bar Nazi Germany?

Only nazi germany? Did you miss history class or something?

 

[Jag]

how can a man like this have ANY position of authority (religious or otherwise) in a country that is supposed to be tolerant, democratic and have westernized values?

Clearly you've never heard religious nut job Imans declaring Jihad or right wing Preachers spewing hatred? This guy has as much actual authority as any of them.

 

[Blazed]

Honestly I just like to lurk and not really post that much, especially when it comes to political discussions, because most of the time I don't feel like I have the authenticity to comment that much since I'm not that knowledgeable about everything that happens, but when a gem like this shows up:

Israel is facing a serious dilemma. They either show strength through settling and population growth or they choose for a peaceful coexistence that will limit their abilities and put them on a constant threat of extinction.

The Jews learned a very important message after the holocaust. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

I just can't help myself.

I live in a place where I do encounter sometimes people that have been either fed by a biased media outlet or their own parents that Israel is full of nothing but scums. I make sure to let them know that if they want to hate someone, hate the israeli government, and that there are many Israelis who are against the oppression of palestinians, just like you and me. Thankfully I didn't end up with your caveman ideology and decided to oppress them or knock their teeth out since their uneducated viewpoints are the reason hatred spreads and wars are started.

I know that I should have probably not even quoted you or gave you the time of day. The reason I even bother lurking neogaf is because most people here have views and values about life that coincide with mine, and like every Palestine/Israel thread, there are only 2 or 3 posters that try to derail the victimizing of palestinians into a both-sides-are-the-same argument while most people here are appalled at what's happening.

I don't know you and I most likely never will(thankfully), but if that's really how you see the world, try to educate yourself more. In the case of not being able to change your view into a more optimistic and humane one, try to at least limit its exposure to the hole of trash that you embraced it from and bury it there.

Israel isn't facing any sort of serious dilemma, especially when they're the most advanced in the region, with the backing of a superpower to boot as well. They don't have to be an oppressor or a victim. In fact, with their resources and power, they can be so much more which is why this stale state of affairs is so sad.

I truly hope that one day this conflict ends, it already grabbed more lives than it should ever have on both sides, and I really hope people with your view are forever in the minority if not non-existent. It would make the world a better place.

 

[CornBurrito]

Israel is facing a serious dilemma. They either show strength through settling and population growth or they choose for a peaceful coexistence that will limit their abilities and put them on a constant threat of extinction.

The Jews learned a very important message after the holocaust. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

What does this mean for non-Jews?

 

[astroturfing]

Clearly you've never heard religious nut job Imans declaring Jihad or right wing Preachers spewing hatred? This guy has as much actual authority as any of them.

of course i have. a lot of people haven't heard Jewish extremists spout similar shit though.. that stuff just isn't in the popular consciousness (as far as i can tell). or did you know a Chief Rabbi is openly calling for genocide and praising Jewish terrorists like Goldstein? also this thread wasn't about Islam, your post comes off as weak whataboutism.

i was once laughed at right in my face when i suggested Jewish extremists and terrorists exist.. like i was some anti-semitic conspiracy loon or something.

i think it's important to show Israel's ugly side (as long as they keep behaving immorrally), when so many people just think "well they're our most important ally and the only democratic country in the Middle East!!!" and leave it at that.

 

[Jag]

did you know a Chief Rabbi is openly calling for genocide and praising Jewish terrorists like Goldstein? also this thread wasn't about Islam, your post comes off as weak whataboutism.

A single wackjob rabbi with no actual authority is spouting hatred. No one ever denied they exist. But yet someone on GAF gets all frothy and tries to claim that he has some official position within Israel. (when in fact the government has prevented him from taking an official position in the past). He had known contact with Rabin's murderer. That's not going to make him popular with the mainstream. This guy's audience is probably some of the psychopathic settlers that he "represents".

It's wrong when people do it for other religions and it's wrong here.

 

[devilhawk]

Until Israel is presented something they deem more worthwhile than a notion of peace that can't even be truly guaranteed, why would they ever capitulate from the status quo?

I wonder what would even entice Israel at this point.

 

[Skyzard]

Heavy handed sanctions, ideally.

 

[koji kabuto]

Israel is facing a serious dilemma. They either show strength through settling and population growth or they choose for a peaceful coexistence that will limit their abilities and put them on a constant threat of extinction.

The Jews learned a very important message after the holocaust. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

So the world is all about Survival of the fittest, And what's happening to the Palestinians right now is just a natural selection? That's the most inhuman thing i'v ever heard in a long time.

 

[CornBurrito]

The year is 1930. Germany is facing a serious dilemma. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Because who is gonna stop them now, right?

 

[Akainu]

Israel is facing a serious dilemma. They either show strength through settling and population growth or they choose for a peaceful coexistence that will limit their abilities and put them on a constant threat of extinction.

The Jews learned a very important message after the holocaust. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

Shit if ever a post needed an avatar quote. You're digusting.

 

[DrunkShogun]

Guess Palestine will be only remembered in history. Don't see them surviving with trump in power. Israel is going all in while they can and unfortunately no country really wants to oppose America. Why is Israel so obsessed with being supervillains.

 

[Jotaka]

Israel is facing a serious dilemma. They either show strength through settling and population growth or they choose for a peaceful coexistence that will limit their abilities and put them on a constant threat of extinction.

The Jews learned a very important message after the holocaust. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

What bullshit rationalization. Shame on you.

 

[nelsonroyale]

They are making a grab for it with the Trump in office. More people need to boycott Israel and its produce, and force it up the political agenda in their own countries.

 

[Violet_0]

The year is 1930. Germany is facing a serious dilemma. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

this was probably the first thought that was on everyone's mind when they read the post

 

[TheKingOfPain]

I hate Netanyahu, disgusting individual.

 

[astroturfing]

A single wackjob rabbi with no actual authority is spouting hatred. No one ever denied they exist. But yet someone on GAF gets all frothy and tries to claim that he has some official position within Israel. (when in fact the government has prevented him from taking an official position in the past). He had known contact with Rabin's murderer. That's not going to make him popular with the mainstream. This guy's audience is probably some of the psychopathic settlers that he "represents".

It's wrong when people do it for other religions and it's wrong here.

you're unsurprisingly downplaying his role, he isn't just some obscure nutjob no one listens to.. according to a 2011 Jerusalem Post article he is/was the "head of the Council of Jewish Communities of Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip, and one of the most senior national religious rabbis". an absolute genocidal openly racist maniac in a position like that, isn't it a worrying sign? would this fly in any other so-called western country?

also regarding his "arrest" from wikipedia:

Israeli chief rabbis Yona Metzger and Shlomo Amar condemned the arrest as a "grave offense to an important rabbi's honor", and 25 members of the Knesset signed a petition denouncing it as "shameful" and as having been orchestrated by Deputy State Prosecutor Shai Nitzan. Lior was released after an hour of questioning.

it's obvious to anyone who has been following the situation for any length of time that extreme religious and racial attitudes get a pass in Israel and enable things like violent settlers seizing taking over other people's lands over several decades..

 

[Sijil]

Israel does what it wants because no one either dares or cares to stand against them. The Palestinians have no hope when the useless oil rich Arab chiefs choose to pour all their petro dollars in fueling wars in Iraq, Syria and arming their proxies to the teeth instead of aiding the Palestinians. The Arabs have no leader, they haven't had one since Abdel Nasser, all they have are pretenders with too much money and care for only their thrones and influence.

When the Israelis see this, what's going to hold them back from doing whatever the hell they want? when they see Arabs are more willing to kill each other than fight them.

Oh well we had our chance, our golden age, maybe we'll get another shot in 600 years or so.

 

[chillybright]

heh

So much for two state solution.

Also I am a little surprised that they are still pushing radical moves after US backed off a little. Their balls have grown I guess.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Egypt and Jordan don't give two craps. And neither does much of the other Arab world. This isn't the first time settlements are built, and not the last. Statements of a "trigger" or a "world war" are hyperbolic silliness. Nothing will be triggered.

Not to mention the last time the Arabs tried intervention, they got their asses kicked, and now Israel has nukes and is crazy enough to use them.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

What I am saying is the land that is currently the State of Palestine was given to them by Israel.

This is like Americans saying "But hey you Injuns, we gave you that reservation you're living on. Be grateful you little schmucks. You never had a real nation."

When the truth is the only land you ever had to "give" was land that you stole.

What does this mean for non-Jews?

"Suck it up buttercup, we're taking everything you have, including your life. Because our lives are more valuable than ours."

heh

So much for two state solution.

Also I am a little surprised that they are still pushing radical moves after US backed off a little. Their balls have grown I guess.

Why are you surprised? We have a Republican president and congress who would happily eat shit caked to the bottom of Netanyahu's shoes.

 

[chillybright]

Can someone explain why its a bad thing? I really feel overwhelmed but I want to know whats going on there (ELI5?) ...

It is bad because it means Israel is one step closer to ethnic cleansing Palestinians.

It is also bad that no one would stop them.

 

[Marky Mark]

The last words on that Louis Theroux documentary Ultra Zionists springs to mind. Where guy says something like 'there is nothing that you or the world can do to stop us. Nothing'

 

[Flying Toaster]

I do not see anyone stopping this. I feel for the Palestinian people. Trump in office just solidified Iseral doing this.

 

[Chichikov]

Israel is facing a serious dilemma. They either show strength through settling and population growth or they choose for a peaceful coexistence that will limit their abilities and put them on a constant threat of extinction.

The Jews learned a very important message after the holocaust. You are either the oppressor or the victim, there is nothing in between. If you want to survive, be dominant, dictate others the way of life.

Of course this sounds cruel, but that's what the world we are living in has always been.

This is morally repugnant. This line of argument can be used to justify pretty much everything, up to and including the holocaust. In fact, these types of might makes right and appeal for security arguments were quite a Nazi favorite.

Also, the idea that the Palestinians can somehow "extinct" the Jewish people is ridiculous. Even at the height of their most violent resistance they were never able to kill more Israelis than car accidents or heart attacks. This is not an existential threat.

 

[KRod-57]

Their end goal is to make the two state solution an impossibility

 

[Dude Abides]

How exactly is Israel "Ethnically cleansing" Palestinians? This is ridiculous hyperbole. Especially considering Ethnic Cleansing is the prime reason Israel exists as it does today.

I agree. Ethnic cleansing perpetrated by Israel in 1948 is the reason Israel exists today.

The "West Bank" -was- part of Jordan. They gave it up. The current situation is absolutely as much their fault as Israel's. Why is the onus entirely on Israel? Egypt has a massive wall at their border with the Gaza Strip, intentionally to keep the Palestinians out of their country. Why is that Israel's fault?

Why is it Egypt and Jordan's job to solve a refugee problem created by Israel? Do you propose that Israel should cede the West Bank back to Jordan (nice quotes - I guess you consider it part of Eretz Israel).

Where's the chicken and where's the egg?

Actually it's quite obvious that the conflict began when a bunch of Europeans, aided by the British government, decided that they were going to immigrate to a region and found a state without regard for the fact that people were already living there. Unfortunately those people who were originally there for some reason have not been willing to accept their overlords. Until they do (or their overlords kill them or forcibly expel them from the lands the overlords would like to have) the conflict will continue.

The Jordanians and Egyptians want nothing to do with the Palestinians and both left them in their current predicament

Again, is it your notion that Israel would just give the West Bank to Jordan but Jordan won't accept?

 

[Cub3h]

Abbas had 8 years under Obama to make a deal, but this all-or-nothing approach the Palestinians have tried for 40+ years clearly isn't working.

I'm sure everyone's upset, but what exactly are the downsides to Israel? Their neighbours are in a perpetual state of war, Obama is gone, the UN already is a joke, their economy is continuing to grow faster, they're sitting on some massive natural gas reserves in the Med, they've never had it this good.

Why would they care that the left in the West (who already hate them) get angry? Why would they care if the Arab states around them are upset with them building in East Jerusalem when even before any settlements they were attacked constantly?

If this thing ever gets resolved it's by accepting that the winner of the last three / four wars has the upper hand in negotiations. You've got Gaza, trade some of the settlements deep in the WB (Beit El and the like) for some other land, let Israel keep the big blocs and call it a day. The results can't be worse than 50 years of bombing, stabbing and shooting rockets.

 

[Chichikov]

Abbas had 8 years under Obama to make a deal, but this all-or-nothing approach the Palestinians have tried for 40+ years clearly isn't working.

I'm sure everyone's upset, but what exactly are the downsides to Israel? Their neighbours are in a perpetual state of war, Obama is gone, the UN already is a joke, their economy is continuing to grow faster, they're sitting on some massive natural gas reserves in the Med, they've never had it this good.

Why would they care that the left in the West (who already hate them) get angry? Why would they care if the Arab states around them are upset with them building in East Jerusalem when even before any settlements they were attacked constantly?

If this thing ever gets resolved it's by accepting that the winner of the last three / four wars has the upper hand in negotiations. You've got Gaza, trade some of the settlements deep in the WB (Beit El and the like) for some other land, let Israel keep the big blocs and call it a day. The results can't be worse than 50 years of bombing, stabbing and shooting rockets.

You're suggesting a perpetual Apartheid. The Palestinians will never accept that, nor should they.

As to what can be done, I agree that it's unlikely that the US is going to do anything soon, but the EU is still Israel's biggest trading partner. European sanctions are going to hurt Israel, bad.

 

[Wag]

Egypt and Jordan don't give two craps. And neither does much of the other Arab world. This isn't the first time settlements are built, and not the last. Statements of a "trigger" or a "world war" are hyperbolic silliness. Nothing will be triggered.

Egypt and Jordan are afraid Palestinian refugees will flood in and add to the general discontent of their own governments and rise up (already happened in Jordan). That's why they support the 2-State solution. They really don't give a shit about the Palestinians otherwise.

 

[Breads]

Abbas had 8 years under Obama to make a deal, but this all-or-nothing approach the Palestinians have tried for 40+ years clearly isn't working.

I'm sure everyone's upset, but what exactly are the downsides to Israel? Their neighbours are in a perpetual state of war, Obama is gone, the UN already is a joke, their economy is continuing to grow faster, they're sitting on some massive natural gas reserves in the Med, they've never had it this good.

Why would they care that the left in the West (who already hate them) get angry? Why would they care if the Arab states around them are upset with them building in East Jerusalem when even before any settlements they were attacked constantly?

If this thing ever gets resolved it's by accepting that the winner of the last three / four wars has the upper hand in negotiations. You've got Gaza, trade some of the settlements deep in the WB (Beit El and the like) for some other land, let Israel keep the big blocs and call it a day. The results can't be worse than 50 years of bombing, stabbing and shooting rockets.

What does Israel have to lose? Support from countries that Israel needs more than they need Israel. Apartheid is generally frowned upon and yelling anti semite/ WW3 will only last so long to stave off sanctions.

 

[Alanood]

Please tell the Israeli citizens who have been living in "East Jerusalem" for decades (before this settlement debate started in the last few years) that they are no longer living in Israel and are illegally settling Palestinian land.

How about telling the Palestinians who who have been living in Palestine for decades?

Look, I know It've been always like this, a country/nation invades an another one taking out their land, that's how the current Palestine begun. I have two points here: Israel playing the victim while committing war crimes on Palestinian civilians, and expelling residents. Ok, you invaded, you win, now take over the government and rule the country, but instead they want Palestinians out because of their religious beliefs, where are Palestinians supposed to go? Did they, at least, provide them an alternative place to live in, at least? No.

 

[NandoGip]

Can someone point me to a good resource that kind of explains the whole Israel situation? I can tell it's important but it seems like it's been going on for so long that I don't even know where to start.