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[Kleegamefan]

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/xbox360_inside.ass

Paul: Not to get completely off topic, but there are a couple of things from E3 I'd like to cover. One of them is that Sony talked about 1080p, and there was sort of an ... issue ... there about whether that was even real or not.

Jeff: The total number of 1080p-capable TVs on the planet today is ... zero. There are none. Sony has got a dual ... I want to make sure I say this right, because it's science fiction. They had dual HDMI outputs off the back of the console. And I think that there's some theory that you could take dual 1080i signals and interlace them together to have a progressively rendered scene. But again, there are no TVs that actually support this. I think most people are going to actually take one of the HDMI outputs and just feed it out at 1080i.

Not even gonna go there...

Not. Even. gonna.


So then in the very next paragraph, we see this:

Our focus is on really recognizing that people today are buying HD-capable sets as a mainstream purchase. The price points have really come down. You're starting to see really basic tube-based HD sets now for just $200. So people have got hi-def capable sets at home. Occasionally, you'll see someone with an HD cable or satellite feed--I have HD cable at home--but people are screaming for content to really exercise these hi-def sets that they've bought.

Well I must be living in happyland or something because Samsung, LG, JVC, Sharp and Mitsubishi are all shipping 1080p displays and if I look to my right real quick, I see something that looks suspiciously like a Sony Qualia 006 RPTV, which is a 1080p display....

$200 HDTVs I haven't seen yet though...perhaps I can buy these in the happyland suburbs?

Paul: So Sony's 1080p claim is just...

Jeff: Marketure. Let's sit down and look at a 1080p game on a 1080p console on a 1080p television as soon as those things are all there. I'm eager to see it. We can all guess as to what year that might be.

Hi-def to us means more than just the graphics resolutions we've been talking about though. It also means how people hear the game. On Xbox 360, every single game will support Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound at a minimum. Many games will go higher than that, will use 1080i graphics and 7.1 channel surround sound. But 720p and 5.1 channel surround sound are the minimal hi-def visual and audio aspects of Xbox 360. So hi-def is really that first key pillar for us.

Well now *THIS* is an intresting comment to make....7.1 surround sound, huh??

Well, we know he is not talking about Dolby Digital or dts, because that is a maximum of 5.1 channels.....he is also not talking about the newer 7.1 channel HD-DVD/BRD audio codecs like dts-HD or Dolby Digital Plus because these necessitate an encrypted digital audio connector (HDMI) for full 7.1 audio...

Dolby Digital EX and/or dts-ES is out too because the are only 6.1 channels

He must be talking about a proprietary 7.1 audio codec.....perhaps WMA based???

I would like to hear more about this...


All in all, its a pretty good interview, though I wonder how much longer we must endure this (mis)information about the competition from both Sony and Microsoft....

 

[Firest0rm]

All in all, its a pretty good interview, though I wonder how much longer we must endure this (mis)information about the competition from both Sony and Microsoft....

Nintendo will save us.













please

 

[TheJollyCorner]

so he criticizes a Sony 'science fiction' statement and creates his own with a sound sound that doesn't even exist yet?

I'm confused... does this 7.1 channel surround sound exist yet?

 

[3rdman]

LOL This is being discussed at B3d and ...guess what? He's right! There are NO TV's that accept a 1080p signal and furthermore all 1080p TV's at market now simply employ a line doubling solution from 1080i.

So...technically, he's right!

 

[sprsk]

if someone could show me a 200 dollar hdtv i would like to see it.

 

[Monk]

I have seen EDTV's but not HDTV's.

 

[golem]

i bet 360 will be capable of outputting wma pro 7.1

 

[JayFro]

LOL This is being discussed at B3d and ...guess what? He's right! There are NO TV's that accept a 1080p signal and furthermore all 1080p TV's at market now simply employ a line doubling solution from 1080i.

So...technically, he's right!

Guess that solves that problem.


I hope Xbox 360 games go for 7.1, that gives me a reason to add two new 39inch speakers to my current surround sound system.

 

[3rdman]

so he criticizes a Sony 'science fiction' statement and creates his own with a sound sound that doesn't even exist yet?

I'm confused... does this 7.1 channel surround sound exist yet?

http://www.creative.com/speakers/config/7.1/

They seem to think so...

 

[Exis]

Screw seeing it I would like to buy one or two of these 200 buck HD Televisons.

-Exis

 

[Kleegamefan]

so he criticizes a Sony 'science fiction' statement and creates his own with a sound sound that doesn't even exist yet?

I'm confused... does this 7.1 channel surround sound exist yet?

Well lets look at the options...

7.1 discrete surround audio....

You have 3 viable options

dts-HD and Dolby Digital Plus are outs because they require encrypted digital outs (HDMI) and we all know how much Jeff luvs him some HDMI

So WMA 7.1 is all that remains...but the problem here is there are fewer AV recivers that decode WMA than there are 1080p TVs

So we all know what that means.....7.1 analog audio outs :lol

Don't you just luv the HD era???

 

[Kleegamefan]

dp

 

[3rdman]

Please tell me you are not suggesting that 7.1 speaker system is not the same thing as realtime 7.1ch encode/decode??

Oh....Nonononono. I was just pointing out the fact that it exists...His post suggested that he's never heard of it.

 

[Ryudo]

http://www.creative.com/speakers/config/7.1/

They seem to think so...

Creative also seem to think they make good sound cards :lol

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

$200 HDTVs have about the same chance of existing as an affordable 1080p set that the average PS3/X360 owner can afford does.

 

[Mallrat83]

$200 HDTVs have about the same chance of existing as an affordable 1080p set that the average PS3/X360 owner can afford does.

Huh?

 

[LittleTokyo]

Creative also seem to think they make good sound cards :lol

GAF is so l33t!!1

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Huh?

neither exist.

 

[Kleegamefan]

http://www.creative.com/speakers/config/7.1/

They seem to think so...

Please tell me you are not suggesting that 7.1 speaker system is not the same thing as realtime 7.1ch encode/decode??

Its like this.....they are saying X360 can encode 7.1 discrete channels in realtime.....Similar to how the Dolby Interactive Content Encoder handle DD 5.1 sound in realtime on the XBOX...

So, since Dolby Digital Plus and dts-HD are out (since X360 has no HDMI outs) the WMA 7.1 *codec* is all that remains.....I find this likely since it is property of Microsoft and they wouldn't have to license anything.

Of course, the big problem with this is the fact that only select Onkyo and Pioneer/Pioneer Elite recievers can decode WMA.

So that would mean they would have to resort to 7.1 analog outs and there are not a lot of recievers that have 7.1 analog ins either...

Even if pass that WMA 7.1 via S/PDIF toslink or coaxial audio, no DD or dts decoder would be able to read the WMA stream so we are back to square one...

 

[Mrbob]

Until we see 1080P through HDMI I agree with the statement about there not being real 1080P capable sets on the market.

I'm intersted to see how this 1080P/720P stuff shakes out over the next 5 years. I'm placing my bets on 720P for the next 5 years, though. 1080P will come over that time but it'll be slow.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

http://www.aperionaudio.com/

These guys make a 7.1 setup. As does Creative. I think creative makes more than one actually.

Unless we're talking about something different.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Guess that solves that problem.


I hope Xbox 360 games go for 7.1, that gives me a reason to add two new 39inch speakers to my current surround sound system.

No, that doesn't solve any problem....as long as the source has embedded progressive cadence flags that can be read by a TVs deinterlacer you will get true 1080p video (not line doubled) from interlaced 1080i sources


I view 1080p films (1080p/24 source) from my D-Theater tapes which are output from my D-Theater deck at 1080i and is then correctly displayed as 1080p via 2:3 cadence pulldown.....

B3D isn't always right...remember, 0Pa 0Pa and Deadmeat post there

 

[DopeyFish]

No, that doesn't solve any problem....as long as the source has embedded progressive cadence flags that can be read by a TVs deinterlacer you will get true 1080p video (not line doubled) from interlaced 1080i sources


I view 1080p films (1080p/24 source) from my D-Theater tapes which are output from my D-Theater deck at 1080i and is then correctly displayed as 1080p via 2:3 cadence pulldown.....

B3D isn't always right...remember, 0Pa 0Pa and Deadmeat post there

1080i line doubled is still 1080i. it's not 1080p.

 

[Rhindle]

Until we see 1080P through HDMI I agree with the statement about there not being real 1080P capable sets on the market.

I'm intersted to see how this 1080P/720P stuff shakes out over the next 5 years. I'm placing my bets on 720P for the next 5 years, though. 1080P will come over that time but it'll be slow.

I think that's right. If you buy anything other than a set with native 720P resolution, you're basically screwing yourself over, because 95%+ of next gen games will likely render in 720P.

 

[Mrbob]

Every PS3/X360 game should be in 720P.

If you are looking for a new 720P set, keep your eyes on this one:

http://www.tvauthority.com/Coming-Soon/JVC-HD-52G786.asp#access

I've seen some pictures side by side with the old JVC D-ILA and the new one with the Genessa chip. It makes a nice difference.

 

[Chiggs]

1080i line doubled is still 1080i. it's not 1080p.

Beat me to it.

 

[Ryudo]

GAF is so l33t!!1

:lol

Not loving crappy soundcards is elite ? :lol

 

[Kleegamefan]

1080i line doubled is still 1080i. it's not 1080p.

NO (getting pissed now)

There is line doubling and then there is deinterlacing and the twains sure as hell dont meet...


1080i with embedded progressive flags (such as every fucking D-theater film ever made) can be reconstructed back into the original 1080p frame...

It is not faked 1080p (i.e. linedoubled 1080i)

It is true 1080p via 2:3 inverse telcine..



http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

 

[Beer Monkey]

1080i with embedded progressive flags (such as every fucking D-theater film ever made) can be reconstructed back into the original 1080p frame...

It is not faked 1080p (i.e. linedoubled 1080i)

It is true 1080p via 2:3 inverse telcine..

Sure, you could do that if you coded the PS3 to render 24fps or 30fps with proper flags, then output it as 1080i. The set would reconstruct progressive frames.

But your game could never run 60fps, or anything close to it.

That would be damned silly.

 

[_PsiFire_]

7.1 Receiver by Sony

Look at bottom of page.

 

[Kleegamefan]

7.1 Receiver by Sony

Look at bottom of page.

If you notice, that Sony reciever, it has a dts-ES decoder....this is a 6.1 codec...the seven channels are L main+R main+ Center+ L surround+ R surround+ dual mono surround back....

There are tons and Tons and TOns and TONs and TONS of recievers available with 7 amplified channels...trush me

HOWEVER

7.1 discrete sound codecs include:

dts-HD

and

Dolby Digital Plus

and

WMA

and


THATS IT....

 

[Beer Monkey]

7.1 Receiver by Sony

Look at bottom of page.

I have a 7.1 receiver. Harmon Kardon AVR 525. Requires analog inputs for 7.1, though. And I'm already using the analog inputs for DVD-A/SACD, regardless.

 

[DopeyFish]

NO (getting pissed now)

There is line doubling and then there is deinterlacing and the twains sure as hell dont meet...


1080i with embedded progressive flags (such as every fucking D-theater film ever made) can be reconstructed back into the original 1080p frame...

It is not faked 1080p (i.e. linedoubled 1080i)

It is true 1080p via 2:3 inverse telcine..

READ AND GET A CLUE:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME

It's making up extra pixel data, but it's not the native pixel data that a 1080p would have had. Therefore it is NOT true 1080p. It's completely faked. And since the source sends all the lines for lines 0 and up and then line 1 and up... so it's still interlaced, with extra fake shit applied

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

He must be talking about a proprietary 7.1 audio codec.....perhaps WMA based???

I would like to hear more about this...

.

Probably talking about Pro Logic IIx.

It's been out for a short time now and is superior to everything depending on how it is encoded. Most true PLIIx is encoded in either true 5.1 or 7.1 sound then compressed and "insert tech word here" to a stereo chanel. Then it is decoded, uncompressed+ "insert another tech word here", by the reciever to give true 7.1 chanel surround sound.

The above is completely different from simply getting a 7.1 reciever and letting it turn your normal source into 7.1 sounds. This is why the option exists as a selection in certian video games. Many people get this cunfused when referencing Pro Logic II.

Pro Logic can be encoded (God of War)
or
Non Encoded (Insert low budget game here)

I'm not sure of all the games that support PLIIx but, I know that MGS3 for PS2 and some Star Wars game on Gamecube supports it.

"Ohh no!!! Teh Stuphed Ps2 hav superiors sownd dan Xbox?"

 

[Kleegamefan]

NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME

It's making up extra pixel data, but it's not the native pixel data that a 1080p would have had. Therefore it is NOT true 1080p. It's completely faked. And since the source sends all the lines for lines 0 and up and then line 1 and up... so it's still interlaced, with extra fake shit applied

Why is a film mode deinterlacer so good? Because when it correctly detects film sources, it can recreate the original film frame with no compromises at all.

In the very link I gave...

TRY AGAIN BUSTER.....

 

[Beer Monkey]

It's making up extra pixel data, but it's not the native pixel data that a 1080p would have had. Therefore it is NOT true 1080p. It's completely faked. And since the source sends all the lines for lines 0 and up and then line 1 and up... so it's still interlaced, with extra fake shit applied

Deinterlacing isn't 'fake', though it really doesn't make sense for games. Not only will current sets and digital interconnect standards limit you to 24fps or 30fps, but the interlacing/deinterlacing process is going to guarantee a minimum of a 1/15 second delay (plus a few milliseconds) between the time a frame is rendered to the frame buffer and the time it appears on your screen.

 

[bill0527]

$200 HDTVs I haven't seen yet though...perhaps I can buy these in the happyland suburbs?

Wal-Mart is selling a 27" RCA non-flat tube, no bells-and-whistles straight up 1080i HD Ready TV for $237.00.

I checked their website and they don't have it listed, but I was in WM last night and couldn't believe what I was seeing. I quadruple checked the product tag and even turned the TV around to look at the hookups in the back and all its got is 1 set of component hookups, 1 S-Video, and 1 RCA.

WM doesn't have it on their website yet, so I really can't prove what I'm saying, but like I said, I was shocked when I saw it and looked it over 4 times. The picture quality was crap, mainly because WM was running an analog feed into it. I have no idea how it looks with HD content poured into it.

I was really surprised to see it. I've been a firm believer that HDTV will not take off with the mainstream until they can flood the shelves with 27" sub-$300 HD or HD ready TVs.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Deinterlacing isn't 'fake', though it really doesn't make sense for games. Not only will current sets and digital interconnect standards limit you to 24fps or 30fps, but the interlacing/deinterlacing process is going to guarantee a minimum of a 1/15 second delay (plus a few milliseconds) between the time a frame is rendered to the frame buffer and the time it appears on your screen.

Agree with you 100% but I was just trying to correct the post that said:

LOL This is being discussed at B3d and ...guess what? He's right! There are NO TV's that accept a 1080p signal and furthermore all 1080p TV's at market now simply employ a line doubling solution from 1080i.

So...technically, he's right!

Which is very much incorrect...

I have a 7.1 receiver. Harmon Kardon AVR 525. Requires analog inputs for 7.1, though. And I'm already using the analog inputs for DVD-A/SACD, regardless.

And have you used ever used a discrete 7.1 channel source??(not being an ass....just trying to prove a point)

 

[Beer Monkey]

And have you used ever used a discrete 7.1 channel source??

No, I don't have such a source (nor is it a priority for me at this time, though I do have the matching speakers for 7.1 in a box in my basement...I bought them for spares and possible future expansion).

And I didn't think you were being an ass.

 

[sangreal]

Wal-Mart is selling a 27" RCA non-flat tube, no bells-and-whistles straight up 1080i HD Ready TV for $237.00.

I checked their website and they don't have it listed, but I was in WM last night and couldn't believe what I was seeing. I quadruple checked the product tag and even turned the TV around to look at the hookups in the back and all its got is 1 set of component hookups, 1 S-Video, and 1 RCA.

WM doesn't have it on their website yet, so I really can't prove what I'm saying, but like I said, I was shocked when I saw it and looked it over 4 times. The picture quality was crap, mainly because WM was running an analog feed into it. I have no idea how it looks with HD content poured into it.

I was really surprised to see it. I've been a firm believer that HDTV will not take off with the mainstream until they can flood the shelves with 27" sub-$300 HD or HD ready TVs.

You can find such things on the internet too

http://www.shentech.com/txm2798hfx.html

It seems you jumped to many quick conclusions in your post Kleegamefan

 

[Ristamar]

Wal-Mart is selling a 27" RCA non-flat tube, no bells-and-whistles straight up 1080i HD Ready TV for $237.00.

I checked their website and they don't have it listed, but I was in WM last night and couldn't believe what I was seeing. I quadruple checked the product tag and even turned the TV around to look at the hookups in the back and all its got is 1 set of component hookups, 1 S-Video, and 1 RCA.

WM doesn't have it on their website yet, so I really can't prove what I'm saying, but like I said, I was shocked when I saw it and looked it over 4 times. The picture quality was crap, mainly because WM was running an analog feed into it. I have no idea how it looks with HD content poured into it.

I was really surprised to see it. I've been a firm believer that HDTV will not take off with the mainstream until they can flood the shelves with 27" sub-$300 HD or HD ready TVs.

I'm not saying you're a liar, but I have a hard time believing that was an HD-Ready TV considering the cheapest "regular" 27" television retails for about $200+ at Wal-Mart. Perhaps it was mislabeled.

EDIT: *looks at link above* Well, nevermind. Holy shit. Me = owned, apparently.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME

It's making up extra pixel data, but it's not the native pixel data that a 1080p would have had. Therefore it is NOT true 1080p. It's completely faked. And since the source sends all the lines for lines 0 and up and then line 1 and up... so it's still interlaced, with extra fake shit applied

Well, I don't know the technical details so I can't say.
But, try playing a 3D fighting game (PS2, Xbox, GC) on your computer via a 30fps analog capture device.

Without using the deinterlace software from DScaler the game will be unplayable.
With DScaler it's playable.

So the deinterlacer does something, and it can't be all fake

 

[DopeyFish]

In the very link I gave...

TRY AGAIN BUSTER.....

no, no it cannot recreate it with no compromises.

what are you? new to video? It's all guess work. That's all it is. It's just like all those other features TVs have which fuck up the picture which they claim "it works!" When you have 50% of an image with proper data and 50% of the image which is possibly correct data... it will almost guaranteed kill the picture. (it's an advanced line doubler! A de-interlacer reads pixel data from both opposing lines and sort of "blends" an added line) Unless of course this new chip is the MissCleo 5000 or something which I think we can't give it leniency.

Well, I don't know the technical details so I can't say.
But, try playing a 3D fighting game (PS2, Xbox, GC) on your computer via a 30fps analog capture device.

Without using the deinterlace software from DScaler the game will be unplayable.
With DScaler it's playable.

So the deinterlacer does something, and it can't be all fake

Unfortunately for you, I do often for testing reasons. Dscaler rapes the shit out of images. Blah.

 

[Kleegamefan]

You can find such things on the internet too

http://www.shentech.com/txm2798hfx.html

It seems you jumped to many quick conclusions in your post Kleegamefan

Well $200 HDTVs are not yet a reality while 1080p TVs are....the Sony Qualia 004 R2 (not the original 004) also accepts 1080p via HDMI and the new Mitsubishi 1080p DLPs (Ken Crane in West Los Angeles) accept 1080p via VGA and iLINK....

I hope Jeff is reading this....

 

[Beer Monkey]

It seems you jumped to many quick conclusions in your post Kleegamefan

Frankly, any 27" direct-view 'HDTV' isn't something I would really consider high-def. The limitations of the tube and price (wideband video amplifier, phosphor dot pattern, tension mask or aperture grille) are going to guarantee that the set can't resolve anything near full 1920x1080 resolution, probably way less than half of that. I'd love to hook a Sencore pattern generator to one and run a resolution test.

Henshaw is a goob in that interview, he doesn't know what he is talking about on a lot of stuff.

A de-interlacer reads pixel data from both opposing lines and sort of "blends" an added line

No, that's a line doubler, A 'de-interlacer' uses sophisticated algorithms to determine the cadence of 3:2 pulldown (flags are unreliable) and constructs true progressive frames, typically at 24fps film standard.

I assure you that a proper deinterlacer like an iScan (and the chips that they sell to others, including set makers) will properly reconstruct the originally intended progressive frames 99.9% of the time, and they don't do it by 'blending' or creating 'new' lines.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Unless of course this new chip is the MissCleo 5000 or something which I think we can't give it leniency.

Doesn't have to be miss cleo since interlaces sources (such as films) can and do have embedded progressive cadence flags.....please tell me you know this already....

Also, when you do your testing, look up the term Film interleaving and get back to me...I gotta go...this discussion is BORING....

And let me correct you ONE LAST TIME dopy....line doubling and deinterlacing are not the same thing....they are two diffrent processes...show me where I am wrong about this....

 

[Vince]

Well $200 HDTVs are not yet a reality while 1080p TVs are....the Sony Qualia 004 R2 (not the original 004) also accepts 1080p via HDMI and the new Mitsubishi 1080p DLPs (Ken Crane in West Los Angeles) accept 1080p via VGA and iLINK....

And hasn't just about every damn major CE vendor been showing off 1080p sets at Electronic Conventions (CES anyone?) for the past 6 months?

I don't see how 1080p isn't going to become the standard as to support it is trivial with technology like LCOS that scales with Moore's Law (So, you've seen how CPU and Flash Memory costs drop while capacity shoots through the roof... get ready, that's coming to the HDTV market) and there is a demand driver in the NG media formats (eg. Blu-Ray) which support it.

And from a support point of view, Microsoft's argument is asinine. They're supporting lesser standards on X360 all across-the-board as compared with what Sony is doing with the PS3. Get over it already and move back to the tried-and-true 'It's all about the games' and the 'First to 10M gets free fellatio' comments.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Oh shit I have SATAN HIMSELF backing me up on this one

*pokes vince with cattle prod*

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Unfortunately for you, I do often for testing reasons. Dscaler rapes the shit out of images. Blah.

Unfortunately? WTFIYP?

I'm simply giving an example, I'm not attacking you or praising the image quality of deinterlacers.

I play my games on a calibrated Wega!

Take a 480i game and play it through a 30fps capture device without Dscaler and then with Dscaler. Ofcourse the image quality is degraded since it isn't being sent RGB but, with a deinterlacer it is playable.

When I use the term "playable" I'm not talking about image quailty I'm talking about how the game doesn't look as choppy.

As for image quality between 1080i and 1080p I agree 1080p has more information per frame than 1080i but, both are the same resolution. One is 30Htz and the other is 60Htz.

I'd rather play 1080i in 30Htz @ 60 frames than 1080p in 60Htz @ 30 frames.

 

[llTll]

HDTV for 200$???

is this real HDTV or just tube TV with HD cover?