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[TGO]

All I know is that the existence of this thread, and the assumptions the claims made are correct (we only got one example but it’s ok because it’s “common knowledge”) proves that Sarkesian was right after all and games try to cater to straight csi male fantasy.

Nothing wrong with that......

 

[Phase]

I understand that a lot of people on this site hate the idea and implementation of diversity for the sake of diversity, but too many of you are ignoring logic to make this seem like yet another woke thing.

It's incredibly simple; straight men are still the dominant demographic for AAA games and, whether true or not, AAA publishers don't think straight men want to see or try to empathize with the character they're playing as flirting with, making out with, or having sex with a male character. So making the female lead of your AAA games heterosexual, in their eyes (again, maybe justifiably, maybe not), is to put a limit on sales.

It's because they don't try to create an inherently female story. They just throw a female into a male role. Seriously, how many of the female leads in the last 5 years could just be switched out for men because the woman is only really a skin in the game?

 

[Phase]

I never was the one to trust the statistical data but everywhere you look for some info on this topic, it's clear that males aren't the "overwhelming majority" of gamers anymore. The split seems to be almost fifty-fifty these days, so take it for what you will.

The way I see it personally, is that even though the actual numbers between genders are almost equal, it's still very much a "boy's club" and male audience is still the one that's being favored during board meetings. Maybe I'm wrong but I wouldn't be surprised if I was right either.

PC and console gaming is still dominated by men. If you account for the mobile market it changes closer to 50/50.

 

[taizuke]

I made a similar thread almost 10 years ago, but mine was about how main female protagonists never get a love interest. I also point out how games like Mass Effect don't count because of the reasons you listed.

But, if you want to play a female protagonist with a heterosexual love interest l, I suggest checking out Beyond: Two Souls.

So, i guess the only thing that's changed is that female protagonists now do get a love interest... but hardly ever if at all the hetero kind.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/is-jodi-holmes-the-first-female-lead-to.693853/

 

[SkyHighTrees]

its 2023, i dont even wanna say nun no more... i'ma say it's not just games tho

 

[YOU PC BRO?!]

Most modern female protagonists have completely abandoned their femininity. They appear to think, talk, act or react in a very masculine manner. They don't portray feminine traits the way a woman would. They don't engage other characters or situations the way a woman would. It's no wonder that relationships with these insufferable characters are non-existant. They are so empowered that the idea of one losing 'agency' when lovestruck is incomprehensible to the people writing these characters. Any portrayal of a man having sway over a modern female character would likely draw the ire of every rainbow haired alphabet this side of the Mississippi.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

I can roll with it if the lesbians are hot. I'm a simple man.

 

[Cashon]

I never was the one to trust the statistical data but everywhere you look for some info on this topic, it's clear that males aren't the "overwhelming majority" of gamers anymore. The split seems to be almost fifty-fifty these days, so take it for what you will.

The way I see it personally, is that even though the actual numbers between genders are almost equal, it's still very much a "boy's club" and male audience is still the one that's being favored during board meetings. Maybe I'm wrong but I wouldn't be surprised if I was right either.

Every study I've ever read that includes women as being ~45-50% of gamers does not break them down based on which type of game. In other words, if someone regularly plays Candy Crush, they're considered a gamer in these studies. For example, in one of the most recent and commonly-cited surveys, they specifically say, "A survey during the third quarter of 2022 found that 87.3 percent of female internet users aged 16 to 24 years worldwide played video games on any kind of device." And if you drill down into that data, you see that 66.2% of their sample of people played games primarily on a smartphone.

Obviously that's not relevant to the demographic most likely to play the types of AAA games I referenced.

 

[Aenima]

Because most male players end up seeing the main char as some kind of waifu and they dont want to feel like cucks, but they are ok seeing the main char toguether with another female character.

 

[Drizzlehell]

Because most male players end up seeing the main char as some kind of waifu and they dont want to feel like cucks, but they are ok seeing the main char toguether with another female character.

I guess it's yet another proof that I'm outgrowing modern trends because I genuinely don't give a shit about such things and I would actually prefer to play through a story where a main heroine romances a guy instead of suffering through yet another forced and terribly written lesbian romance like in Burning Shores.

 

[Aenima]

I guess it's yet another proof that I'm outgrowing modern trends because I genuinely don't give a shit about such things and I would actually prefer to play through a story where a main heroine romances a guy instead of suffering through yet another forced and terribly written lesbian romance like in Burning Shores.

Isent Aloy romance optional? How is that forcing you into another lesbian romance? If thats what you got, thats cuz you chose that path.

 

[Drizzlehell]

Isent Aloy romance optional? How is that forcing you into another lesbian romance? If thats what you got, thats cuz you chose that path.

I meant "forced" as in phoned in, insincere, overly sentimental and not earned, badly written.

But now that you mention it - yes, you have to get through that subplot if you actually want to finish the story.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Ending Spoilers for HFW but yes, it was revealed that Sobek dated Tilda. Carrie Anne Moss' character but chose not to go with her to the new planet. Carrie Anne Moss was upset at being dumped so she came back a thousand years later and tried to kidnap her so she could rape her for all eternity. That was literally the final boss fight. Aloy fighting a lesbian who was trying to force herself on her.

I didnt play HFW yet (dont care about spoilers tho), how the fuck did we get from the decently interesting story in HZD to this?

 

[Drizzlehell]

I didnt play HFW yet (dont care about spoilers tho), how the fuck did we get from the decently interesting story in HZD to this?

I never found the main plot of Zero Dawn that interesting (lore was always the only interesting thing about it) but after playing through Forbidden West I actually started appreciating it more, lol.

 

[semiconscious]

#1 ending of all time: the hero gets the girl...

obviously, the first part of this is more negotiable than the second part...

 

[Fredrik]

The distinction lies in the player's control over the main character. Regardless of whether you're role-playing as the character or not doesn't matter. Many people could find their gaming experience disrupted if their character, guided by button inputs and quest paths, ended up in a romantic situation or relationship with a male character.

lmao what about the shooting then? The headshots? The decapitations?
Sorry but this is an absurd explanation. If people are more okay with having control over a character killing other people than having control over a woman who have a romantic relationship with a man… well, then it’s time to spend the money on a shrink rather than games.

 

[Interfectum]

lmao what about the shooting then? The headshots? The decapitations?
Sorry but this is an absurd explanation. If people are more okay with having control over a character killing other people than having control over a woman who have a romantic relationship with a man… well, then it’s time to spend the money on a shrink rather than games.

I mean the evidence is all there. Don’t shoot the messenger.

 

[Cashon]

lmao what about the shooting then? The headshots? The decapitations?
Sorry but this is an absurd explanation. If people are more okay with having control over a character killing other people than having control over a woman who have a romantic relationship with a man… well, then it’s time to spend the money on a shrink rather than games.

Did you just now learn that humans are flawed, fickle, hypocritical beings who are increasingly lacking in a capacity for critical thinking and empathy, while also being highly capable of dismissing cognitive dissonance in favor of confirmation bias?

 

[Fredrik]

Did you just now learn that humans are flawed, fickle, hypocritical beings who are increasingly lacking in a capacity for critical thinking and empathy, while also being highly capable of dismissing cognitive dissonance in favor of confirmation bias?

Yes? Or No? I don’t know I’m too dumb for complex thoughts like that, just can’t imagine that devs think that controlling a woman who flirt with a man will be some kind of tipping point for when gamers will think they’re going too far.
I mean come on now, nobody fully functional would have a problem with Lara Croft or Aloy banging a dude. This is 100% about devs following LBTQ trends or writers having an agenda.

 

[EviLore]

Partly ideological reasons, but also partially that the players are mostly male and may feel uncomfortable romancing or being romanced by a guy, and also the player character tends to be a dominant action hero personality so the natural pairing would be with a feminine archetype.

 

[Cashon]

Yes? Or No? I don’t know I’m too dumb for complex thoughts like that, just can’t imagine that devs think that controlling a woman who flirt with a man will be some kind of tipping point for when gamers will think they’re going too far.
I mean come on now, nobody fully functional would have a problem with Lara Croft or Aloy banging a dude. This is 100% about devs following LBTQ trends or writers having an agenda.

Have you ever heard of a PlayStation game called Fear Effect? The advertising leaned into the fact that the main character was a lesbian. It was used as a selling point. This was on the original PlayStation. Lesbians in games are not new.
Sex Sells when it's two women

Additional food for thought:
Why do you think the term "chick flick" exists? These are typically characterized as romantic movies that follow a woman, revolving around her relationship with a man. Could it be because men, in general, don't want to try to empathize with a woman who is pursuing a relationship with a man?

 

[Shakka43]

I disagree, there are plenty of games that allow you as a female to romance dudes. But they’re mostly games without an iconic female character, they are games where you are a generic female you created in character creation.

But that’s fine, it makes more sense to have iconic or focus point characters to have their own identity. Aloy is gay, that’s part of her identity, I don’t look at it as a negative that I don’t have the option to romance king dude or sledgehammer guy. In Cyberpunk there was that important side character that you couldn’t romance unless you were also a female, I didn’t think that was wrong. In fact I think it’s great when devs take a hard stance on something like that. Again, it gives them more of an identity.

Since when, two months ago? It is not part of her "identity" at all. For all we know the millions of people who have played Horizon 1 and 2 but not the dlc have no idea she has been shoehorned as another lesbian strong woman in mainstream gaming.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Since when, two months ago? It is not part of her "identity" at all. For all we know the millions of people who have played Horizon 1 and 2 but not the dlc have no idea she has been shoehorned as another lesbian strong woman in mainstream gaming.

It’s obvious in HFW that she is a lesbian.

 

[Fredrik]

Have you ever heard of a PlayStation game called Fear Effect? The advertising leaned into the fact that the main character was a lesbian. It was used as a selling point. This was on the original PlayStation. Lesbians in games are not new.
Sex Sells when it's two women

Additional food for thought:
Why do you think the term "chick flick" exists? These are typically characterized as romantic movies that follow a woman, revolving around her relationship with a man. Could it be because men, in general, don't want to try to empathize with a woman who is pursuing a relationship with a man?

I think sex sells. Period. And I don’t think a romance option or a cutscene in a game with a female lead would scare away guys. Would likely pull guys in if there was a scene where Lara finally got in on some serious action with big ol Jonah.
And for the food of thought thing. Do you think the same ”chick flick” with no changes in theme except that it’s a girl-girl relationship would be big among guys? I think not.

 

[GymWolf]

I remember Aloy turning down some of the more thirsty priests, the king and some NPCs but she was always partial to Errand and Varl. She goes out of her way to help them. They were clearly presented as her love interests in the first game, and it was very jarring to see her treat them like dogshit in the sequel. especially after they helped her defeat hades.

She was more interested in avad than erend or varl i think.

The love choice with avad on both games are the only part where she open a window for a male character, she is never that "direct" with the other 2.

Kotallo remain the best ship, he was by far the best companion in the sequel and his writing was the strongest of the bunch, they would make a great couple

 

[GymWolf]

I've had the first game in my backlog for years. Might start it soon, I'm going all in a tribbing the shit out of the other girl.

Or you could bash your head into a wall, just throwing a valid alternative out there...

 

[Cashon]

I think sex sells. Period. And I don’t think a romance option or a cutscene in a game with a female lead would scare away guys. Would likely pull guys in if there was a scene where Lara finally got in on some serious action with big ol Jonah.

I can think of many ads that used sex as a selling point; can you think of any where the selling point is for/from the point of view of a straight woman getting laid?
I can't imagine any game doing well, with the straight male demographic, if it did that.

I mean... That's why this thread exists. "Wokeism" hasn't been around, certainly not as prevalently as it is now, for 25 years; Characters like Lara Croft have. And yet, there are still hardly any games where the straight female protagonist romances a guy. More than plenty of games where the straight male protagonist does.

If A exists despite B, and C doesn't exist because of B, then both A and C would exist if B didn't. But that wasn't the case since the dawn of video games.

Personally, I find romance options in games to be weird. Especially as a selling-point. The writing and character-development is never strong enough to have any kind of worthwhile payoff. It's just there for sad people to vicariously experience some mild form of intimacy?

 

[Trunx81]

When I played Skyrim as a female character, I really missed that Bethesda didn’t put in any catcalling or advances from random bandits. Just imagine having them throw random tantrums at you for being weak because you are female and then FusRoDah their sorry asses. That would have been so empowering!

 

[Kilau]

Before you jump to conclusions - no, I don't object to having gay romances in games at all. I did my fair share of playthroughs of Bioware games where I clapped cheeks with Iron Bull, Cortez, or Zevran, and it was always fun to explore these options thanks to great writing and tasteful, natural execution. However, what I find a bit frustrating is the pattern I've noticed in many mainstream video games featuring female protagonists. It seems that in a lot of games that star a woman as a main character, a gay romance in almost inevitably incorporated into the story in one way or another. But my question is: why aren't there more games starring female protagonists that explore heterosexual love interests? And I'm specifically referring to games with established characters like Lara Croft or Aloy, because RPGs with character creators and multiple romance options are a bit of a different ballpark from games that have already established characters and you're just playing out their story.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that almost every game where you play as a male character offers numerous romance options with female characters, while games featuring female protagonists often downplay or exclude heterosexual romance altogether? Case in point - Horizon games. At the beginning of Forbidden West, you receive a polite and restrained invitation to a date from a male character, which you can either decline or respond to with uncertainty, but ultimately decline without much concern on Aloy's part. However, in the DLC, the relationship with the female sidekick is presented with drastically different tone, where Aloy is clearly infatuated and awkwardly shy at mere thought of romancing that girl, and there's not even an option to express disinterest in any romance with her. I think it would be great if they could simply remain close friends instead, because it feels like, nowadays, every game that features two female characters has to imply a sexual attraction between them, which is just odd.

Compare this final scene from Burning Shores with a very similar scene at the end of The Witcher 3: Blood and Wine, where you share a drink and reminisce with your friend Regis. But now imagine that instead of just chatting for a while and then saying your goodbyes, you'd suddenly be locked into an awkward conversation where Regis made romantic advances on Geralt and you can either smooch with his old ass, or make your excuses and leave on a really awkward note. That seems to be the default approach many developers take when creating female characters in video games these days, and it's really off-putting.

The only mainstream game from recent memory that comes to my mind right now, which did have a hetero female protag who ended up kissing a guy at the end was Battlefront II. And even though to me the whole situation is merely an oddity to point out in a conversation, I reckon that female hetero gamers must be feeling really left out by not having an option to end a game with a handsome guy at heroine's side, lol.

Dontnod was told by Capcom they couldn't have Nilin kissing a man in Remember Me because it would make heterosexual males feel uncomfortable. Their next game was Life is Strange...

 

[Crayon]

 

[Filben]

I care at max for friendships, not relationships in gaming

If you take Arthur Morgan, was married, loved her, but the girl barely is in the game. The focus on the character life still is one of the best stories ever

I loved how they handled that. It feels way more authentic than in most games that try to shoehorn love and sex into any world threatening story. In RDR2, it is simply not the time nor circumstances, or circumstances won't allow Arthur to engage in that kind of "social activity" besides those three side quests with his former wife that ultimately lead nowhere.

But of course a hero or heroine have to get the chance to make out... especially when you meet a character for five minutes and they fall in love with each other as fast as teenagers who just learned about their sexuality.

 

[DirtyBast8rd]

Horizon’s lesbian romance was a fucking joke. They have lost all credibility as far as i am concerned. She was presented with two male love interests in the first game who are then cast aside in the sequel where she treats them both like dog shit all of a sudden. Then she conveniently finds the love of her life in the sequel's DLC.

They think they are so clever. In Forbidden West, they revealed that her original clone was a lesbian. I was like oh wow, here we go and then of course, they made DLC to turn her gay too. If you want to retcon a straight character into a lesbian, this is the playbook to follow.

This . Ellie is gay. Aloy is a joke. Will continue playing Last of Us games. Horizon can kiss my hetero ass.

 

[DevilHunterX0]

Apparently, all non-RPG Female Protagonist's lesbian relationships are now mandated to be revealed in DLCs.

 

[Fredrik]

I can think of many ads that used sex as a selling point; can you think of any where the selling point is for/from the point of view of a straight woman getting laid?
I can't imagine any game doing well, with the straight male demographic, if it did that.

I mean... That's why this thread exists. "Wokeism" hasn't been around, certainly not as prevalently as it is now, for 25 years; Characters like Lara Croft have. And yet, there are still hardly any games where the straight female protagonist romances a guy. More than plenty of games where the straight male protagonist does.

If A exists despite B, and C doesn't exist because of B, then both A and C would exist if B didn't. But that wasn't the case since the dawn of video games.

Personally, I find romance options in games to be weird. Especially as a selling-point. The writing and character-development is never strong enough to have any kind of worthwhile payoff. It's just there for sad people to vicariously experience some mild form of intimacy?

So why are they making people play from a woman’s point of view then if they know the main audience is men and are scared that they may think it’s awkward to roleplay as a woman?

Seems it would be easier to do it like proper roleplaying games and let the gamer choose the gender. Making all female protagonists lesbian as a solution for when men are roleplaying is dumb tbh. And what about when a woman play a game? From their perspective it’s as if we’re playing as male characters and everybody is gay.

 

[Cashon]

So why are they making people play from a woman’s point of view then if they know the main audience is men and are scared that they may think it’s awkward to roleplay as a woman?

Seems it would be easier to do it like proper roleplaying games and let the gamer choose the gender. Making all female protagonists lesbian as a solution for when men are roleplaying is dumb tbh. And what about when a woman play a game? From their perspective it’s as if we’re playing as male characters and everybody is gay.

Don't be silly; nobody cares about women.

 

[Fredrik]

Don't be silly; nobody cares about women.

Ah so you’re just trolling. Good to know.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

It's virtue signaling, they put stuff like that in the game to simply send the message of "WE, THE DEVELOPERS, DO NOT LIKE THOSE NASTY GAMERGATER TYPE GAMERS AND WE PUT THIS IN TO PISS THEM OFF!"

That's why it rings false, it's working it's way backwards from making a political point against perceived enemies, it's not there to just make for an interesting story or character.

One of my all time favorite games is Rule of Rose which has lesbian themes, any type of subject can make for an interesting game, but when it's just thrown in to "own da chuds!" it's false, it's boring and it's lame.

Western devs do this all the time, the bear fucking in Baldur's Gate 3 is just there to piss the "chuds" off, developers literally sit around and specifically think of something to put in a game solely to piss off the "wrong" type of gamers, there's been a decade long agenda to drag gaming away from who was the average gamer say circa 2010 and it's obnoxious, unfair and mean spirited as fuck.

 

[taizuke]

With Horizon Forbidden West, I think Guerilla Games knew they couldn't introduce this gay love interest because it would be controversial and affect their sales. So, instead, she was reserved for the DLC, which I think is a bit of a cop out.

 

[Barakov]

Playing as a guy and having your actions lead to a relationship and sex with a woman character is easy to imagine, playing as a woman and also romancing women is a good thing, do you think most gamers would be ok playing as Lara Croft and making choices that lead to her sucking dick?