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Lance McDonald reversed engineered Elden Ring’s PS5 executable and found that the game runs worse because the PS5 build has no compiler optimizations
- Thread starter Thick Thighs Save Lives
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- Opinion Game Dev
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CliffyB's Cock Holster
From soft game have never been technically sound...
I would regard their technical prowess as "incompetent" for sure when measuring against most of their contemporaries considering that they have since PS360 gen been having massive success with each title selling more and more and garnering more and more sales and accolades yet the technical issues still remain. Technical issues that should be caught and easily fixed before launch like this, or frame pacing and so on.
Frankly it's becoming Pokémon levels of not caring now.
Their frame-pacing tech works as intended, like it or not. Run the same binary on faster hardware and the issues (mostly) disappear because the judder is a result of them always seeking to maintain the highest average frame delivery (presumably to mitigate input-lag) not to produce the smoothest cadence in delivery at frequencies below the target.
People need to accept that the special "feel" of FROM's games doesn't happen by happy accident every time. Its actually the product of a bunch of choices in creative and technical design that allow them to engineer it reliably and consistently.
Do you think that a loss in "feel" on the sticks due to lag manifesting on say the input side would be a fair trade-off for a smoother presentation visually? I don't believe so.
YeulEmeralda
Member
Meanwhile at From Software studios...
StueyDuck
Member
I don't quite understand your defence force here. they make design decision and those decisions impact the games performance therefore it's good and shouldn't be fixed?
They make plenty of money now, there is literally no excuse for any of what you are saying, other developers are able to do it, so why does from soft get a free pass?
it's almost the literal definition of incompetence. competent studio after having the runaway disgusting success of Elden Ring would've hired the skills they need to get over these menial hurdles
REDRZA MWS
Member
I played it through on my ps5, ps5 version and all this horrible performance talk is just that, talk. Game looked and played great.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
My point is that there are always trade-offs. And just because the negative you see, you don't like, it doesn't follow that the alternatives are necessarily better or ideal.
In my experience most gamers are literally clueless about the consequential nature of design decisions, unsurprising to be fair when all they get to judge is what the devs deliver as their best option.
Who makes games of FROM's type that both look and play better?
Sure you can find games that run more smoothly, but off-hand I can't think of any that have better and more acclaimed gameplay along with those visuals. Maybe Lords Of The Fallen will deliver on this, but honestly who knows at this point, and even then why has it taken the best part of 15 years to one-up them?
I say this as a big fan of Team Ninja's post 2017 games, which for my taste play great and do unquestionably run at higher average frame-rates, BUT at a cost to grandiose scale and atmosphere compared to the Soulsborne titles.
Your argument is the epitome of ignorance and presumptuousness based as it is solely upon their games simply not running at frame-rates of your liking.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Here: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/lanc...compiler-optimizations.1660232/post-268315355What are compiler optimizations?M1chl
Here, basically Arma Core runs almost perfect on the PS5 and Series X with the PS5 having a slight advantage in resolution and frame rate.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Thats disappointing to hear.
What is odd is that if this is essentially the PS4 version of the code running on a PS5 then why is the PS4 version running better and this isnt?
ZehDon
Gold Member
We've had this same thing come up before, with the most famous example being Super Mario 64. MVG actually did a half-decent video on it. In the end, it's nowhere near as simple as "Dev's didn't tick 'Make game run better'". There's usually a reason for these kinds of "optimisations" not being used. From Soft make an interesting set of choices to achieve their priorities with their engine, so I'd imagine some of these optimisations might actually hinder aspects of this. Only From Soft know for sure.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Could be issues with compiler optimizations being on. It’s not fool proof. That’s exactly why they can be turned off.
And “ reverse engineering “ probably means he just ran it through a decompiler app that converted it to machine code.
. Probably Took 20 mins.
He doesn’t have the actual source code.
And “ reverse engineering “ probably means he just ran it through a decompiler app that converted it to machine code.
. Probably Took 20 mins. He doesn’t have the actual source code.
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StueyDuck
Member
lol buddy you need a medal for this defence, so framerates aren't important now and neither is game optimisation, so long as they "meant for it to be bad"
im sorry the money they have now they can hire people to fix these issues. AC VI should have never released with such a silly problem, same as elden ring.
I guess Cyberpunk was all just a masterclass in game design too. they just meant for it to not run well
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Dream-Knife
Banned
Runs good on Steam Deck. 30fps 2 hour battery with mostly medium settings and FSR.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I didn't say that. At all. What I wrote was that there are trade-offs, and that sometimes retaining an engine/pipeline with performance deficits can be worthwhile due to the flexibility it offers in other areas, such as the ability to fine-tune gameplay.
Thanks for proving my point for me! I challenged you to find a comparable title that both presents and plays better, and you come back with AC VI and Cyberpunk - 2 titles developed with massive staff headcounts and funded to a degree that no FROM title ever has been - both unable to hit the mark as stated.
sankt-Antonio
:^)--?-<
Fromsoft did it again with this game? How incompetence is much higher than I ever imagined.
BlackTron
Member
This makes sense to me, but what doesn't make sense is why the PS4 version runs better? Are you saying that maybe there was a negative in tweaking the game for PS5 due to potential tradeoffs in other areas, even though PS5 is a PS4 Pro Plus that plays PS4 titles natively? I mean, that doesn't appear to me to be "we're gonna keep the same engine!" that just seems like completely faceplanting at porting a game. Unless you can explain this better for my small brain.
StereoVsn
Member
Is From software and/or Bandai Namco completely lacking in code optimization expertise or is this just they don't give a shit since it's selling anyway situation?
Because setting compiler flags is a fairly basic thing. And even if they are lacking, a fairly high level (no need to super deep dive into code) consultant review could have found this issue. Like seriously, WTF!?
And they haven't patched it still... This is a mix between incompetence and indifference basically.
Because setting compiler flags is a fairly basic thing. And even if they are lacking, a fairly high level (no need to super deep dive into code) consultant review could have found this issue. Like seriously, WTF!?
And they haven't patched it still... This is a mix between incompetence and indifference basically.
ParaSeoul
Member
Maybe the Japanese game devs should learn how to code
Cyberpunkd
Member
1. Release shit
2. See shit selling
3. Conclusion: shit sells, no need for compilers
ParaSeoul
Member
Difference is this was in 1995 when 3d graphics were relatively new,now they are the standard,from soft is just incompetent
winjer
Gold Member
You didn't watch the video, didn't you.
Lower resolution, less grass and forestry density, worse lighting, no RT from the top of my mind compared to the PS5 version. Just to be clear, PS4 version on PS4 Pro runs better than the PS5 'native' version, and much better when played on PS5. Put a slow donkey on a Ferrari, it goes fast.
BlackTron
Member
Lower resolution, less grass and forestry density, worse lighting, no RT from the top of my mind compared to the PS5 version. Just to be clear, PS4 version on PS4 Pro runs better than the PS5 'native' version, and much better when played on PS5. Put a slow donkey on a Ferrari, it goes fast.
So the PS5 version is pushing all those graphical enhancements, but losing a few frames vs. PS4?
Oh come on. Put away the pitchforks.
Aaron Olive
Member
Ok this shit needs to stop... Sucker punch did the same shit with Ghost of Tsushima.
digdug2
Member
And the winner for most unhinged response in this thread goes to...
WTF From, we assumed you were just another japanese team creatively proficient but technically limited.
What we didn't know is that the limitations were in your undeveloped brains, so plain retarded to not tick a few boxes, and stupidly irresponsible to not check, find this, recompile with the ticks and flags and update for more than a year.
Guess we must start calling them Fuck Software.
Wasn't Series X also having performance problems and more or less PS5/Series X had the same performance?
For a time I thought about selling my PS5 copy and picking it for Series X, but I think I read or hear that it was the same case on both consoles and I just assumed it was From Software stupenduos coding skills again and just braved through it. Guess if it's the same case, if they make optimization changes to PS5, then Series X and Series S probably have the same unoptimized mess and will get the same treatment of a japanese dumbo ticking a few boxes in the compiler, recompiling and pushing the update.
Just a thought...
Maybe From Software are so utterly retarded that they don't know to optimize flags is just a few ticks in the compiler, and what we've been thinking as their thrashy coding skills is just they never ever ticked those boxes EVER in any of their games on every system, since the PS4 version on PS5 runs at lower resolution without raytracing and a few others bells and whistles, and we were just brute forcing everything. Because lets be honest, we all have thought or felt that, for the graphical quality From Software gave us, we should have been getting much more performance than we were. On PC, since we had more horsepower available than the consoles of the time, we just brute forced them to a confortable 60fps and called it a day.
ps5 version still had exact same issues without rt patch.Lower resolution, less grass and forestry density, worse lighting, no RT from the top of my mind compared to the PS5 version. Just to be clear, PS4 version on PS4 Pro runs better than the PS5 'native' version, and much better when played on PS5. Put a slow donkey on a Ferrari, it goes fast.
and if they had to lower resolution a bit and fine tune graphics settings to get locked 60 and perfect frame-pacing, they should have done that.
its what optimization is all about.
im sure they could still manage a “better than ps4 version looking” ps5 native game if they have put any effort to it.
you are spinning out of control
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Not surprising. From Software are great at game design, gameplay, art, etc, but borderline incompetent when it comes to tech. And they never bother to improve any of that shit after release.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
If you don't care about consistent performance, sure. Because this game doesn't have that, it constantly stutters. If you can't see that, congrats on being blind to it I suppose.
StueyDuck
Member
Lol there's No point here
these companies earn big money, these performance issues shouldn't be happening at such a silly level. I don't see why you feel you need to defend anything.
LOL.
Now I've triggered a Sony snowflake who took the opposite meaning of what I was saying?
Is today the day of lets get twisted meaning from Nonehxc letters and go dumbly against him for soiling the virtue of my favourite whatever?
Look spinerino friend.
Lets see, so far I have one unhinged person from the From Software Einsaztgruppen, and another one from the Sony Pony Autodefense.
Since my message also mentions Xbox and PC, I guess the next ones will be the Xbox Zealots of the Cult of the Fail and the soiled neck beard PC Masterracers(not seen on frame is my PC to the right with all Dark Souls series on Steam) twisting my words to conform to their prejudices.
Goddamm, I love it. Offending everyone everywhere at the same time without even pretending it.
Or, you know, you both could just come clear and accept you took the wrong meaning out of my words, each one of you for different retarded reasons and prejudices, and we could all be friends.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Define "running better". And more importantly is the workload exactly 1:1?
This second point I think its pretty doubtful in Elden Ring's case as foliage and LoD levels are clearly set higher on PS5, not to mention the fact that data streaming is clearly different due to load time differential.
Honestly, I'm a bit skeptical at what conclusions Lance can actually come to on the basis of what I assume to be data inspection and recompilation alone. Sorry, but I'm not keen on how much of his recent stuff has been so hostile to the people who's work his entire internet fame is based on piggy-backing off of, threatening to release his patch and so forth. That's not cool and is absolutely certain not to curry favour with Sony or FROM.
Being absolutely honest I think the only reason they haven't taken a less tolerant stance against him and his work is that they know the optics would be horrible, but that isn't to say they would be happy about it!
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Lol there's No point here
I don't see why you feel you need to defend anything.
You call it defending, I call it contextualizing and explaining that things in development are never that black and white. A position I hold due to many years of experience in the field.
Its a complex undertaking to make a large scale game requiring hundreds of man-years worth of coordinated effort from talented, dedicated professionals. This is why the complaint of "Lazy devs" is so offensive to me. No number of lazy people would or will ever make a title as good as Elden Ring or any other highly rated title for that matter.
Such a simplistic diagnosis flies in the face of reason.
Does everything that's imperfect in you and your life boil down to lazyness?
BrunoCoel
Member
Thanks for this explanation.
StueyDuck
Member
Lol it doesn't need any contexualising. The publisher and the studio have a fuck ton of money.
If these things offend you then I don't know what to tell you, do you think people don't work hard at other jobs?
You can explain why there's a fly in my soup it doesn't mean that's acceptable at a restaurant
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miklonus
Member
Can you redo this pic so it says "Gamers" on the left?
justiceiro
Marlboro: Other M
Well, if they overlooked shader compilation, this really shouldn't come as surprise to anyone.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
How is that the result of lazyness specifically?
You can't even offer a relevant analogy because your argument is so weak!
digdug2
Member
You're just further proving my point about being unhinged.Guess you took it personally, after all 'the only games that really excite you are From Software games'...
And the winner of the moistier From defense goes to...
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
From Soft are kinda shit at tech, aren't they ?
good thing their games are received so well on the basis of their content alone.
good thing their games are received so well on the basis of their content alone.