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Let's talk about Abby Russel at Giantbomb's GOTY podcast...

Scopa

The Tribe Has Spoken
Are you accurately representing that? Is that really her take on Detroit? I haven't watched Giant Bomb coverage for years because of this kind of crap (hearing Jeff defend Jessica Price recently really cemented that for me) but that seems a bit much even for their staff. Any chance of a time-stamp?
Not Abby. Vinny implied that. Didn’t state it outright. But, between he and Alex’s constant ridiculing of David Cage, that is what can be ascertained. Seems their biggest grievance is that he had the audacity to allude to racism in his story.

Alex even went so far as to state that it would be fiscally responsible for Sony to remove him as head of Quantic Dream. It was amazing that no one pointed out to him that the game actually sold well. How is it fiscally responsible to remove the head of a games company that made a successful game? Astounding mental gymnastics and I don’t even own a PS4.

EDIT: Not to mention a member of the gaming press publically advocating for the firing of a game developer. This shit has gone too far. Pull your head in, idiots.
 
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Greedings

Member
Giant Bomb went to shit in the last few years. I used to really look forward to the end of year discussions, I can't tolerate them any more. Don't listen, don't visit the website, don't miss it.

I also don't really detect any sort of genuine interaction between the members there. It all seems forced.
 

nkarafo

Member
This whole representation thing reads like this to me:

"I don't care about the story you wanted to write, or your vision. I wanted you to write the stuff i have in my head"
 

bosnianpie

Member
Unfortunate to see another site being infested with opinions that has just as much to do with politics as they have with video games. Doesn't these sites realize how much competition they have out there? They are losing clicks to teenagers with Youtube channels because they can't keep their "progressive" views out of the equation.

Living in Sweden I witnessed the last ever Swedish game magazine being released earlier this week, the end of an era. They sure had interesting articles over the years but on every other page they had to bring up female representation, sexism, homophobia, racism, trans characters, lgbt rights, feminism and everything else you can expect from a Swedish magazine in this day and age. Some people would say that they were just the victim of the digitalization but as a long time subscriber I know that my main reason for jumping ship was constantly having their political views showed down my throat. Worth mentioning is that their online forum went down aswell, also full of people with approved opinions.

Don't give sites like this clicks and attention, when the advertisers stop paying they will have to ask themselves why that is. If they're clever enough they will understand that they can't keep f-king their audience in the head anymore, if not - they will disappear or become marginalized like many sites before them.
 
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Scopa

The Tribe Has Spoken
i watched one of their E3 live steams. dear god. they looked like they do not want to be there and looked bored as fuck.
- bored about games
- do a complete 180° on what the website was about
- hammer down hard with the SJW agenda

And yet:

“We value you, the subscribers. Please subscribe. Pretty please.”

Honestly, it’s like watching a car crash. Fairdinkum, I tune in solely to watch it all go down in flames. Tried to do the same thing years ago with Idle Thumbs, but I noped out eventually. Couldn’t even do it for the lols.
 

Bryank75

Banned
I was just thinking away to myself, I can't remember this type of division in the gaming community back in the early to mid 2000's or before. Did it all begin when women started taking jobs in games media?

I mean... did guys in games media start using this progressive/feminist schtick to try and get "an in" with their female coworkers, because it is easier than having confidence or "game"?

We see a lot of these male feminists get outed or #metoo'd for harassment, sexual or otherwise and I just think that the whole situation is the result of hiring women into a previously male-dominated workplace, where the men are very sexually repressed.
 

Scopa

The Tribe Has Spoken
I was just thinking away to myself, I can't remember this type of division in the gaming community back in the early to mid 2000's or before. Did it all begin when women started taking jobs in games media?

I mean... did guys in games media start using this progressive/feminist schtick to try and get "an in" with their female coworkers, because it is easier than having confidence or "game"?

We see a lot of these male feminists get outed or #metoo'd for harassment, sexual or otherwise and I just think that the whole situation is the result of hiring women into a previously male-dominated workplace, where the men are very sexually repressed.
You know, I don’t normally think about it in such basic terms to be honest. Seems a bit crass. But, thinking about it. If we posted pictures of the male journalists that go the hardest on this idiocy, I actually think you might have a point. Seriously. Of course, I am not going to do it, because that would be wrong. But, just sitting here and thinking about it...every single one of these blowhards is either fat, balding, ugly or a combination of the three.

Disclaimer: This is intellectually stimulating. I’m aroused. Do go on.
 

Inviusx

Member
I was just thinking away to myself, I can't remember this type of division in the gaming community back in the early to mid 2000's or before. Did it all begin when women started taking jobs in games media?

I mean... did guys in games media start using this progressive/feminist schtick to try and get "an in" with their female coworkers, because it is easier than having confidence or "game"?

We see a lot of these male feminists get outed or #metoo'd for harassment, sexual or otherwise and I just think that the whole situation is the result of hiring women into a previously male-dominated workplace, where the men are very sexually repressed.

Women aren't the problem, there are a heaps of women in the industry that are awesome. The problem is PC culture and those who want to be seen online as a bastion/defender of that ideology. It's infected both men and women.

Everyone wants to have their hot take heard on the internet and wants those delicious social points to be reflected in their twitter follower number/invitations to socially progressive conferance talks.
 

Scopa

The Tribe Has Spoken
Women aren't the problem, there are a heaps of women in the industry that are awesome. The problem is PC culture and those who want to be seen online as a bastion/defender of that ideology. It's infected both men and women.

Everyone wants to have their hot take heard on the internet and wants those delicious social points to be reflected in their twitter follower number/invitations to socially progressive conferance talks.
And why do people want to be popular?

To be attractive to potential mates, Alex. For 100.

There really is something to this.

Of course, it would be a lie if I said it had never occured to me. I just never voiced that opinion. It’s obvious. White knights wanna get some bootay. Nerds will be nerds.
 

Bryank75

Banned
Women aren't the problem, there are a heaps of women in the industry that are awesome. The problem is PC culture and those who want to be seen online as a bastion/defender of that ideology. It's infected both men and women.

Everyone wants to have their hot take heard on the internet and wants those delicious social points to be reflected in their twitter follower number/invitations to socially progressive conferance talks.

Oh, I don't mean that women are the problem at all, I mean that there was an unhealthy insular culture. Then women were introduced and it made it even more unhealthy as they didn't know how to deal with it in a healthy fashion.
 
Women aren't the problem, there are a heaps of women in the industry that are awesome. The problem is PC culture and those who want to be seen online as a bastion/defender of that ideology. It's infected both men and women.

Everyone wants to have their hot take heard on the internet and wants those delicious social points to be reflected in their twitter follower number/invitations to socially progressive conferance talks.

Absolutely. Women are not the problem AT ALL. Ideology is the problem. Social media is the problem. Outrage and controversy = clicks and ad revenue for a dying medium is the problem. There's lots of women on you tube who genuinely love games, and don't care about pushing social politics in the least.

[edit] And when 80% of US citizens polled say they think political correctness is a problem in America, you can bet that PLENTY of female gamers, and women in general, don't want to have anything to do with this crap.
 
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Harlock

Member
Giantbomb is like that old friend that was crazy and cool back in the college and today is boring and always lecturing how your behave is bad. The last straw was Gerstmann refusing to cover Kingdom Come.
 

J-Roderton

Member
Giantbomb is like that old friend that was crazy and cool back in the college and today is boring and always lecturing how your behave is bad. The last straw was Gerstmann refusing to cover Kingdom Come.

Yeah, pretty much. Also, I want to looking into that whole Kingdom Come thing. Interesting.
 

Scopa

The Tribe Has Spoken
Yeah, pretty much. Also, I want to looking into that whole Kingdom Come thing. Interesting.
Don’t look too hard. Basically Gerstmann making a statement that they won’t be covering it with Abby heavy breathing in the background.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
Normal person reading the internet:

https://www.giantbomb.com/articles/abby-russells-top-10-games-of-2018/1100-5823/

Oh, that's an interesting choice of games reflecting personal taste that significantly overlaps with what other people judge to be the best games of the year

GAF circling the wagons:

#notarealgamer #saidsomethingIdisagreewith #totallydisgusting #cancelled

GAF tomorrow:

Resetera are awful they don't have tolerance for difference or disagreement
 

MMaRsu

Banned
I wouldn't mind her if she would learn to convey her opinion without using the words "it's like, I feel, very, really" as if she's just gotten a memo stating they're about to be outlawed in the next 15 seconds. It's mind numbing after a while.

Yeah that IS very annoying.
 
The only answer is to watch somebody else.

Some people try so hard to stick to what they know, in this case Giantbomb. If it has become trash, just leave a comment there and gtfo.
 

klosos

Member
Honestly i haven't listened or watched anything from them for a few years , soon after Ryan Davis passed away i stopped consuming anything Giant bomb , it wasn't the same really.

now i haven't listened to the Podcast in question or never heard of Abby Russell to be honest , but if you find her commentary lacking , then just go else where , there are plenty of Podcast's / Streams out there.

However if you are in a discussion about GOTY , you should rally be able to articulate properly why you do/dont like said game , Actually am finding this more common place with legacy games media the amount of in-depth knowledge on Video games lacking , thats what annoys me more then anything
 
GAF circling the wagons:

#notarealgamer #saidsomethingIdisagreewith #totallydisgusting #cancelled

GAF tomorrow:

Resetera are awful they don't have tolerance for difference or disagreement

Who here wants abby banned from NeoGAF or even Giant Bomb? And even if a few did, most aren't saying they want that, so why generalize like that?

#yourmissingthepoint #wecancriticizecriticism #readmypostanddebatethat
 
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Greedings

Member
Normal person reading the internet:

https://www.giantbomb.com/articles/abby-russells-top-10-games-of-2018/1100-5823/

Oh, that's an interesting choice of games reflecting personal taste that significantly overlaps with what other people judge to be the best games of the year

GAF circling the wagons:

#notarealgamer #saidsomethingIdisagreewith #totallydisgusting #cancelled

GAF tomorrow:

Resetera are awful they don't have tolerance for difference or disagreement

Abi is like...a symptom of what's wrong with giant bomb. The whole lot went to shit. They ditched most of the great people and employed people like Dan. What a joke that man is.

The worst thing about GB in my opinion is Gurstmann. He doesn't like games. He is so fucking boring and jaded that I can't listen to him talk. On top of that, it feels like he talks down to the audience and his colleagues constantly.

Abi is annoying, but she's nothing compared to those two. I listened to the beast cast for a few months after ditching the main GB podcast. Then that just got too boring.

Maybe I should clarity, since you seem to jump to this assumption. GB can exist as long as it wants, if people like it, good for them! I don't pay attention to it anymore, and my animosity towards it, is that I really used to enjoy it. Now it's gone, and I've moved on (and moved on in general from gaming podcasts).
 
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petran79

Banned
This throws up a really interesting question for me, which sits at the heart of much of this discussion.

In 2018, now that we have access to Youtube, and Twitch, and Reddit, and a million other opportunities for self-publishing one's opinions to an international audience, what is a critic?

Historically - and this is my informal, off the top of my head definition so take it with a grain of salt - a critic was an individual who had accrued a cachet of either industry or academic experience in a specific discipline or medium, and by combining this with superior writing/communication skills, offered the general public both a sense of the consumer value of a good/work/object, and a more advanced analysis through cultural/critical/theoretical lenses. Examples of this might be Pauline Kael or George Plimpton, or Hunter S. Thompson, or Lester Bangs. These were highly experienced craftspeople working in and around their disciplines, with bodies of work that could be scathing and deeply assaultive towards their objects of inquiry, but they also had the power to enhance the experience of consumption by highlighting one or more aspects of the piece, and the context around it.

Fast forward to 2018. What's a critic?

A critic is a person employed by what is, largely, a failing industry. They may have extensive experience (Jeff Gerstman), or simply be likeable (Dan Ryckert), or have no experience whatsoever (Abby Russell). They may don themselves in the academic trappings of traditional criticism (Austin Walker), or they may see criticism as an instrument for advancing their political agenda in the name of 'doing better' (Patrick Klepek). Ultimately, though, the thing that defines them as a critic is simple - they are a critic because that is the job title that they hold. They rarely offer insights that are any more advanced, challenging, or revelatory than those offered by sNiP0R-mAdMaN2003's Youtube channel, or by the Redditor who was gifted gold because he thinks Warframe is better than Destiny.

Their work is, however, a product of the age in which we live. For the most part it is shallow, traffic-driven, and obsessed with views, clicks, and engagement telemetry. These are not people who are invested in the rigorous study of a discipline. Their function has been almost completely displaced by player-driven citizen media. What makes Jeff's, Brad's, or Abby's opinions any more important or revelatory than those posted to NeoGAF every day?

The answer is - they're not. There's nothing special or unique about any of the stuff that GiantBomb does. Their utility has been completely erased by Youtube and Twitch. So, they're substituting politics as cruise control for controversy, in an attempt to boost their traffic, and please CBS. They are riding that digital wave while the riding is still possible. There is no video game equivalent of Lester Bangs reviewing Astral Weeks, not yet, anyway. And, if there ever is, facile dinosaurs like the Giant Bomb crew are not going to be the ones to deliver it.


Also critics are able to participate in debates, even with critics having different opinions. Or refer to their works and lay out their positives and negatives.

But video games..... You have this secluded camp, you have the other secluded camp, each with their seperate online armies. Impartial moderation, bullying, fear, harassment

In an era where video games reached a point where it can be established as its own field, embracing technology, art and communication theory. Yet since most do not have a clue, they insert botched politics and representation issues without any connection to video games at all.
For them even Japan is only the past golden age of Nintendo and they have no clue about current trends, hiding it behind their prejudice for anime aesthetic
 
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Wimbledon

Member
I don't mind people giving an opinion as long as they can defend it. They also need to be challenged and judging from the comments it seems like , the crew does challenge her maybe not at the level you would like them too though.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I'll be honest, I never understood the issues with SJW's, left wings or right wings. These are very confusing concepts to me. Not that this adds anything to said discussion, I just thought I'd say this randomly.

In any case, I think its ruining video games. Games used to be games, until suddenly they carried political messages. Maybe it did back then, but nobody seemed to care (I think). It was either fun or it had shit controls or shit 3rd person camera angles.

One of the differences is this....we know have social media so you now "KNOW" what people think and how they feel ALL THE TIME! 10-15 years ago nobody really knew what everybody felt about something, so you were ignorant to their beliefs and opinions.
 

ROMhack

Member
This throws up a really interesting question for me, which sits at the heart of much of this discussion.

In 2018, now that we have access to Youtube, and Twitch, and Reddit, and a million other opportunities for self-publishing one's opinions to an international audience, what is a critic?

Historically - and this is my informal, off the top of my head definition so take it with a grain of salt - a critic was an individual who had accrued a cachet of either industry or academic experience in a specific discipline or medium, and by combining this with superior writing/communication skills, offered the general public both a sense of the consumer value of a good/work/object, and a more advanced analysis through cultural/critical/theoretical lenses. Examples of this might be Pauline Kael or George Plimpton, or Hunter S. Thompson, or Lester Bangs. These were highly experienced craftspeople working in and around their disciplines, with bodies of work that could be scathing and deeply assaultive towards their objects of inquiry, but they also had the power to enhance the experience of consumption by highlighting one or more aspects of the piece, and the context around it.

Fast forward to 2018. What's a critic?

A critic is a person employed by what is, largely, a failing industry. They may have extensive experience (Jeff Gerstman), or simply be likeable (Dan Ryckert), or have no experience whatsoever (Abby Russell). They may don themselves in the academic trappings of traditional criticism (Austin Walker), or they may see criticism as an instrument for advancing their political agenda in the name of 'doing better' (Patrick Klepek). Ultimately, though, the thing that defines them as a critic is simple - they are a critic because that is the job title that they hold. They rarely offer insights that are any more advanced, challenging, or revelatory than those offered by sNiP0R-mAdMaN2003's Youtube channel, or by the Redditor who was gifted gold because he thinks Warframe is better than Destiny.

Their work is, however, a product of the age in which we live. For the most part it is shallow, traffic-driven, and obsessed with views, clicks, and engagement telemetry. These are not people who are invested in the rigorous study of a discipline. Their function has been almost completely displaced by player-driven citizen media. What makes Jeff's, Brad's, or Abby's opinions any more important or revelatory than those posted to NeoGAF every day?

The answer is - they're not. There's nothing special or unique about any of the stuff that GiantBomb does. Their utility has been completely erased by Youtube and Twitch. So, they're substituting politics as cruise control for controversy, in an attempt to boost their traffic, and please CBS. They are riding that digital wave while the riding is still possible. There is no video game equivalent of Lester Bangs reviewing Astral Weeks, not yet, anyway. And, if there ever is, facile dinosaurs like the Giant Bomb crew are not going to be the ones to deliver it.

Really good post. It's an existential issue as much as anything and does seem to be this way due to their desire to make money through the internet. In all honesty, they rode a wave at a fairly recent point in history where they could do that unchallenged. But now? It's not as easy and their reaction is natural - do whatever they can to get people clicking content.

It's a media problem in general as the internet really fucked things up for traditional journalism.
 
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Shifty

Member
Hmm. I was planning to give their GOTY deliberations this year a listen to see if I should keep bothering with GB, though it sounds like the same issues it had last year are still out in force. I don't know if I can bring myself to endure that particular kind of extended torture again.

But, if I want to properly take part in this discussion I suppose I had better get on it. Back in some hours...

Normal person reading the internet:

https://www.giantbomb.com/articles/abby-russells-top-10-games-of-2018/1100-5823/

Oh, that's an interesting choice of games reflecting personal taste that significantly overlaps with what other people judge to be the best games of the year

GAF circling the wagons:

#notarealgamer #saidsomethingIdisagreewith #totallydisgusting #cancelled

GAF tomorrow:

Resetera are awful they don't have tolerance for difference or disagreement
> Bringing a buzzword bingo card to a NeoGAF thread

Do you have a point to make that doesn't amount to 4chan meme arrows, or...?
 
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mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Really good post. It's an existential issue as much as anything and does seem to be this way due to their desire to make money through the internet. In all honesty, they rode a wave at a fairly recent point in history where they could do that unchallenged. But now? It's not as easy and their reaction is natural - do whatever they can to get people clicking content.

It's a media problem in general as the internet really fucked things up for traditional journalism.

They are also people with a long history of gamers that have heard their opinions about games for a long time. That longevity just them a bit more "cred" than some random dude on Youtube. And they have media connections that normal people on Twitch don't have.
 

ROMhack

Member
They are also people with a long history of gamers that have heard their opinions about games for a long time. That longevity just them a bit more "cred" than some random dude on Youtube. And they have media connections that normal people on Twitch don't have.

True and in all fairness to them, they're also good writers for the most part. It's kinda how they got to the position they did whatever we want to say about them.

At the same time, I suspect their skills don't lend very well to video content which is why few of them do it. A lot of sites have been getting video people in to do that stuff.

And yes media connections. I had a job interview once at a PR company specialising in games. The dude holding the interview used to write for Eurogamer and I specifically asked him how he got into the industry. He told me that he used to go down to gaming expos and conferences to meet people in the industry. He basically befriended them and that's how he got gigs on those websites.
 
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Zangiefy360

Banned
When you hire "Fart Women" decline is inevitable. Everyone is forced to walk on eggshells, say what they think the Fart Women and their white knight supporters want to hear instead of what really needs to be said, and watch as the company slips into irrelevancy. Some recent examples in gaming alone: Telltale Games, EA Dice, Bioware, 343, and Cliffy B. There's a reason "go woke, go broke" is a thing.
 

Thiagosc777

Member
Normal person reading the internet:

https://www.giantbomb.com/articles/abby-russells-top-10-games-of-2018/1100-5823/

Oh, that's an interesting choice of games reflecting personal taste that significantly overlaps with what other people judge to be the best games of the year

GAF circling the wagons:

#notarealgamer #saidsomethingIdisagreewith #totallydisgusting #cancelled

GAF tomorrow:

Resetera are awful they don't have tolerance for difference or disagreement

I don't know why people insist in making this lame comparison. You are allowed to spew this type of nonsense here without fear of being banned. Trying doing it there and see how long you'd last.
 

A.Romero

Member
That is an optimistic way to look at it, but as we saw at the launch party of Battlefield V as well as the developer posts on sites like Era, that mindset is engrained in the very essence of that studio now. Unless they get the orders from higher up, I don't see it changing.

I skipped purchasing the game, as did almost everyone I know. I don't even know anyone in my town that gave the game as a gift this Christmas. Doin' my best to put my money where my mouth is, but I am not sure that will fix everything.

Valve took the first bold step when refusing to curate Steam's catalog. I think EA is paying dearly for BFV and it will take a while but the situation will turn heads and have decisions made. Worse case scenario they just don't do more BFV.

Still, I agree my view is optimistic.
 

Petrae

Member
I was just thinking away to myself, I can't remember this type of division in the gaming community back in the early to mid 2000's or before. Did it all begin when women started taking jobs in games media?

I mean... did guys in games media start using this progressive/feminist schtick to try and get "an in" with their female coworkers, because it is easier than having confidence or "game"?

We see a lot of these male feminists get outed or #metoo'd for harassment, sexual or otherwise and I just think that the whole situation is the result of hiring women into a previously male-dominated workplace, where the men are very sexually repressed.

Women aren’t the problem. The disconnect between games media and the people who play video games really began a few years ago with the Mass Effect 3 ending fiasco. Players got mad, games media reacted by tearing players a new asshole by yelling at them on social media and in angry op-ed pieces. Games media basically acted as an industry defender, rather than reporting impartially or trying to understand the player’s point of view. (Though Forbes writers tried to balance this.)

Then came the litany of “Gamers are over” hit pieces from games media, which irreparably damaged the relationships between the media and its readership/viewership. It’s not the war it was a few years ago, but skirmishes still occur and the wounds have yet to heal. Luckily, the proliferation of Twitch and the explosion of YouTube popularity has given fans and players many other options than the traditional websites and destinations— which now rely on controversy and negative engagement to survive. There are more options than ever to get video game news and reviews, and many don’t hate their viewers or readers.

It’s sad to see what traditional games media has become. I used to be such an avid reader and fan back in the magazine era, and during the transitional days when print began to shift to online. Hell, I even wanted to work in that business for a time. Now, you couldn’t pay me to visit those sites. I get my news from here or from a handful of YouTube channels. Yell at me enough, call me enough names and make enough foolhardy generalizations, and your goodwill evaporates.
 

dirthead

Banned
I don't really follow Giantbomb since I dislike Jeff Gerstmann. But I've heard that since this Abby person joined, she has made them go full on SJW and feminist. They didn't want to even review Kingdom Come Deliverance because it was historically accurate.

Gerstmann is so lucky that they canned him for giving a crappy game a crappy review. He's not only got no talent, he's also got really weird opinions, seems to completely suck at games, and to top everything off, doesn't even really seem to enjoy games in general. He's lucky he's not working at Walmart or something. It's a complete anomaly that someone like him was able to make a career off that given that he's a perfect storm of everything you wouldn't want in a video game critic.
 

Boss Mog

Member
Gerstmann is so lucky that they canned him for giving a crappy game a crappy review. He's not only got no talent, he's also got really weird opinions, seems to completely suck at games, and to top everything off, doesn't even really seem to enjoy games in general. He's lucky he's not working at Walmart or something. It's a complete anomaly that someone like him was able to make a career off that given that he's a perfect storm of everything you wouldn't want in a video game critic.
I couldn't have said it better myself. He had so many questionable reviews at gamespot that I just wrote him off way before they canned him.
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
Valve took the first bold step when refusing to curate Steam's catalog. I think EA is paying dearly for BFV and it will take a while but the situation will turn heads and have decisions made. Worse case scenario they just don't do more BFV.

Still, I agree my view is optimistic.

I was happy with Valve's decision - but they pretty much reneged on that one right quick. Multiple VNs have been removed by Valve from the Steam store for BS reasons.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Women aren’t the problem. The disconnect between games media and the people who play video games really began a few years ago with the Mass Effect 3 ending fiasco. Players got mad, games media reacted by tearing players a new asshole by yelling at them on social media and in angry op-ed pieces. Games media basically acted as an industry defender, rather than reporting impartially or trying to understand the player’s point of view. (Though Forbes writers tried to balance this.)

Then came the litany of “Gamers are over” hit pieces from games media, which irreparably damaged the relationships between the media and its readership/viewership. It’s not the war it was a few years ago, but skirmishes still occur and the wounds have yet to heal. Luckily, the proliferation of Twitch and the explosion of YouTube popularity has given fans and players many other options than the traditional websites and destinations— which now rely on controversy and negative engagement to survive. There are more options than ever to get video game news and reviews, and many don’t hate their viewers or readers.

It’s sad to see what traditional games media has become. I used to be such an avid reader and fan back in the magazine era, and during the transitional days when print began to shift to online. Hell, I even wanted to work in that business for a time. Now, you couldn’t pay me to visit those sites. I get my news from here or from a handful of YouTube channels. Yell at me enough, call me enough names and make enough foolhardy generalizations, and your goodwill evaporates.

I agree that the first time I remember the games media going to war with gamers was during the Mass Effect 3 ending. I kinda happened around the Xbox One reveal too though, but the hatred wasn't as strong against gamers at the time. The games media kept telling us that we "MS knew better" and that "always online consoles" were the future and to "Deal With it".

But the Mass Effect 3 ending fiasco was on a whole new level. That really crushed things as far as our relationship with the gaming media. The Kingdom Come fiasco hasn't helped either.
 

bilderberg

Member
I noticed games press getting cuckoo around the time RE5 was getting trailers. Just willfully being dumb and pretending Africa isn't made up of mostly black people, so god forbid a game set in Africa has you shooting mostly black people. It's totally okay when the game prior takes place in Spain and you're shooting white people though. I considered my self very left leaning back then, and don't think my views have changed all that much since, but that's when I learned these people are fucking nuts.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I noticed games press getting cuckoo around the time RE5 was getting trailers. Just willfully being dumb and pretending Africa isn't made up of mostly black people, so god forbid a game set in Africa has you shooting mostly black people. It's totally okay when the game prior takes place in Spain and you're shooting white people though. I considered my self very left leaning back then, and don't think my views have changed all that much since, but that's when I learned these people are fucking nuts.

As an outspoken black man, I thought that was also one of the dumbest things I've ever saw in gaming too. Like who did you guys expect would be the zombies in Africa? I hated the fact that Capcom changed the look after the backlash from the press. It was all weird.

Like I want and care about representation. And that representation means....allow us to be the stars/protagonist, but also let us be the bad guys that get shot in the head in a small town in South Africa.
 

Optimus Lime

(L3) + (R3) | Spartan rage activated
Really good post. It's an existential issue as much as anything and does seem to be this way due to their desire to make money through the internet. In all honesty, they rode a wave at a fairly recent point in history where they could do that unchallenged. But now? It's not as easy and their reaction is natural - do whatever they can to get people clicking content.

It's a media problem in general as the internet really fucked things up for traditional journalism.
Very much so, it's indicative of the huge shifts that we're seeing, not only in terms of monetisation, but in terms of the relationship between audience and content producer.

There's a lot to unpack in this entire conversation, but let me throw another log on the fire.

I think one of the other big sources of contention with sites like Giant Bomb, and figures like Ryckert and Russell, is that in some ways, they subvert the traditional warrant that a critic has for the elevation of their opinions. If you said to me 'Optimus Lime, I want you to write a review of your favourite album, and I want it to eclipse the famous Lester Bangs review of Astral Weeks in terms of innovation, quality, and depth', I couldn't do it. I don't have the technical ability, the uniqueness of thought, the embeddedness in history, and I flat-out lack the kind of imagination required to write like that. I'm a more than competent writer from a technical perspective, but Lester Bangs was special - and that's why he was famous, and in the employ of Rolling Stone, Creem, etc.

If you said to me, though, 'Optimus Lime, put together a list of your 10 favourite games of the year. Doesn't even have to be the 'best' from any kind of technical or theoretical perspective. It doesn't have to be a demonstration of your extensive knowledge of the technical aspects of video game creation, or your deep connection to the history of the medium, or a profound engagement with one or more theoretical lenses that you can use to expand our understanding of how the medium advanced in 2018. Just throw together ten things that you liked. And, since it's just your opinion, be as glib and inconsistent and baseless as you like' - you betcha, I could do that. So could pretty much every poster here.

What I'm saying is that Giant Bomb's writing is symptomatic of a wider problem plaguing the smoking remains of 'gaming journalism': these people are not experts, and they have earned no warrant for their opinions being worth reading. Does anyone believe that Jim Sterling is actually some kind of authority on digital media and video game design? Irony, excess, hyperbole, and a relentless amplification of outrage culture are the tools that Sterling et al. rely on. The 'specialness' is not there. Jim Sterling can never, and will never, create anything lasting, profound, or - dare I say it - beautiful in the video game criticism space. It's all empty calories and hot air. As long as the clicks keep coming, that's all that matters. Same as Giant Bomb. Same as Waypoint. Same as Destructoid.

And, I think that breeds resentment. In enthusiast spaces like NeoGAF, Reddit, ResetEra, you have a swarm of people who often do have the kind of credentials that were traditionally seen in someone like Lester Bangs. In this thread alone, we've seen really sophisticated engagement with the history of the medium, with the history of media and journalism itself, with critical and cultural theory, and with the potential futures for video games and interactive art. And, that's just one thread, on one day. So, when a figure like Abby Russell is given a high profile job with a prominent, traditional publisher, and she completely demonstrates that she has absolutely no warrant for her views being taken seriously, a kind of professional resentment starts to fester. Sometimes that turns into navel gazing threads like this one, sometimes it emerges as very real, very lethal misogyny. And, for someone like me, it emerges as disengagement with the site itself.

Because, there are a million Abby's and Dan Ryckerts and Jeff Gerstmans on Youtube and Twitch - and many of them have earned a warrant for their opinions being heard. So, why wouldn't I listen to them? This year's GB GOTY conversations have been the absolute height of self-important, pretentiously delusional nonsense. These idiots believe their own hype - to the point that they think that 20+ hours of their undisciplined, uninteresting, aggressively amateurish conversations are actually worth spending time on. It's quite a galling illustration of just how deeply traditional 'games journalism' has become estranged from the audience, and why they feel that they have the authority to demand that devs are fired, and to engage in an endless war with their own fanbase.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Probably an apt place for this tweet



I'm on mobile or would write a lot more.


Tim also has a bias there too. He's an indie developer that probably feels that games like RDR2 and God of War get high scores because they are big budget games. Not sure how he figures Critics are complacent.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Very much so, it's indicative of the huge shifts that we're seeing, not only in terms of monetisation, but in terms of the relationship between audience and content producer.

There's a lot to unpack in this entire conversation, but let me throw another log on the fire.

I think one of the other big sources of contention with sites like Giant Bomb, and figures like Ryckert and Russell, is that in some ways, they subvert the traditional warrant that a critic has for the elevation of their opinions. If you said to me 'Optimus Lime, I want you to write a review of your favourite album, and I want it to eclipse the famous Lester Bangs review of Astral Weeks in terms of innovation, quality, and depth', I couldn't do it. I don't have the technical ability, the uniqueness of thought, the embeddedness in history, and I flat-out lack the kind of imagination required to write like that. I'm a more than competent writer from a technical perspective, but Lester Bangs was special - and that's why he was famous, and in the employ of Rolling Stone, Creem, etc.

If you said to me, though, 'Optimus Lime, put together a list of your 10 favourite games of the year. Doesn't even have to be the 'best' from any kind of technical or theoretical perspective. It doesn't have to be a demonstration of your extensive knowledge of the technical aspects of video game creation, or your deep connection to the history of the medium, or a profound engagement with one or more theoretical lenses that you can use to expand our understanding of how the medium advanced in 2018. Just throw together ten things that you liked. And, since it's just your opinion, be as glib and inconsistent and baseless as you like' - you betcha, I could do that. So could pretty much every poster here.

What I'm saying is that Giant Bomb's writing is symptomatic of a wider problem plaguing the smoking remains of 'gaming journalism': these people are not experts, and they have earned no warrant for their opinions being worth reading. Does anyone believe that Jim Sterling is actually some kind of authority on digital media and video game design? Irony, excess, hyperbole, and a relentless amplification of outrage culture are the tools that Sterling et al. rely on. The 'specialness' is not there. Jim Sterling can never, and will never, create anything lasting, profound, or - dare I say it - beautiful in the video game criticism space. It's all empty calories and hot air. As long as the clicks keep coming, that's all that matters. Same as Giant Bomb. Same as Waypoint. Same as Destructoid.

And, I think that breeds resentment. In enthusiast spaces like NeoGAF, Reddit, ResetEra, you have a swarm of people who often do have the kind of credentials that were traditionally seen in someone like Lester Bangs. In this thread alone, we've seen really sophisticated engagement with the history of the medium, with the history of media and journalism itself, with critical and cultural theory, and with the potential futures for video games and interactive art. And, that's just one thread, on one day. So, when a figure like Abby Russell is given a high profile job with a prominent, traditional publisher, and she completely demonstrates that she has absolutely no warrant for her views being taken seriously, a kind of professional resentment starts to fester. Sometimes that turns into navel gazing threads like this one, sometimes it emerges as very real, very lethal misogyny. And, for someone like me, it emerges as disengagement with the site itself.

Because, there are a million Abby's and Dan Ryckerts and Jeff Gerstmans on Youtube and Twitch - and many of them have earned a warrant for their opinions being heard. So, why wouldn't I listen to them? This year's GB GOTY conversations have been the absolute height of self-important, pretentiously delusional nonsense. These idiots believe their own hype - to the point that they think that 20+ hours of their undisciplined, uninteresting, aggressively amateurish conversations are actually worth spending time on. It's quite a galling illustration of just how deeply traditional 'games journalism' has become estranged from the audience, and why they feel that they have the authority to demand that devs are fired, and to engage in an endless war with their own fanbase.

I absolutely LOVED how you started out this post. But then it crashed and burned at the bolded section. Many of the people that work at Giant Bomb and Waypoint have actually provided excellent peices in the video game critcism space. You have to understand that some of those people have been video game critics for over 15-20 years! Some of us older people above the age 35 remember these in the media and their earlier work.
 
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Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Gerstmann is so lucky that they canned him for giving a crappy game a crappy review. He's not only got no talent, he's also got really weird opinions, seems to completely suck at games, and to top everything off, doesn't even really seem to enjoy games in general. He's lucky he's not working at Walmart or something. It's a complete anomaly that someone like him was able to make a career off that given that he's a perfect storm of everything you wouldn't want in a video game critic.
But the same in the bolded can be said for you.

I couldn't have said it better myself. He had so many questionable reviews at gamespot that I just wrote him off way before they canned him.
Gerstmann was indeed... odd, and i haven't read that many reviews aswell.

Somewhat older but Kieron Gillen also was subject to some debate. I still have some old paper mags where the man unironically self-proclaims himself to be the best reviewer (Or something to that extent).
 

Optimus Lime

(L3) + (R3) | Spartan rage activated
I absolutely LOVED how you started out this post. But then it crashed and burned at the bolded section. Many of the people that work at Giant Bomb and Waypoint have actually provided excellent peices in the video game critcism space. You have to understand that some of those people have been video game critics for over 15-20 years! Some of us older people above the age 35 remember these in the media and their earlier work.
I disagree. I'm well above the age of 35, and I remember Gerstman's early years very well. If you honestly believe that Jeff Gerstman, Brad Shoemaker, Jim Sterling, or Alex Navarro have written pieces of criticism that rival the work of people like George Plimpton and Hunter S. Thompson - I don't know what to tell you. We're going to have to strenuously agree to disagree.

The 'some of us older people' stuff is pretty disappointing, I must say. Oh well. You're welcome to your opinion. I absolutely stand by mine.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
I pay attention to Brad and Jeff's opinions, but it's partly because I've been reading them for so long going back to Gamespot days. Whether we really need videogame critics goes back to the are videogames art debate. In 2018, the vast majority of games are not art. They are just vehicles to monetize attention and would be more accurately described as anti-art. You don't need critics for sorting those out, you just need Consumer Reports-style analysis.
 
I pay attention to Brad and Jeff's opinions, but it's partly because I've been reading them for so long going back to Gamespot days. Whether we really need videogame critics goes back to the are videogames art debate. In 2018, the vast majority of games are not art. They are just vehicles to monetize attention and would be more accurately described as anti-art. You don't need critics for sorting those out, you just need Consumer Reports-style analysis.
Game critics can't even handle that role competently.

The number of bugs, control problems, and mechanical shortfalls -- to say nothing of anti-consumer practices -- that sneak past our esteemed reviewers seriously baffles me.
 
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