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[Meus Renaissance]

BBC Radio 5 podcast from last night, some public calls. Also, Starkey came on it and expanded on his views. That begins around 1hr 35mins into it but plenty of interesting views and heated exchanges before then! Let me know if non-UK Gaf cannot listen to this, I'll upload it.

Listen

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Jeez though. Is it really so far off base to point out that the roots of black culture in the UK is disproportionately more influenced by the Carribean than Africa or the US.

 

[crimzonflame]

Jeez though. Is it really so far off base to point out that the roots of black culture in the UK is disproportionately more influenced by the Carribean than Africa or the US.

Its like that in Toronto as well.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Moving on from Starky, the next political flash point in the UK:

Home Office budget in 2014/15 - £8.6bn
DfID budget in 2014/15 - £11.5bn

In 2014/15 this country will be spending more money on foreign aid programmes than on homeland security. Expect right wing and traditional Labour press to pick this strand up in a few weeks. Rightly or wrongly there will be a lot of pressure for the aid budget to be frozen at current levels and put that money into increasing the home office budget. I think the government would be very, very stupid not to bow to the upcoming pressure. If there are more riots and looting, Cameron will get the blame and a resignation will have to given.

 

[SSJ1Goku]

BBC Radio 5 podcast from last night, some public calls. Also, Starkey came on it and expanded on his views. That begins around 1hr 35mins into it but plenty of interesting views and heated exchanges before then! Let me know if non-UK Gaf cannot listen to this, I'll upload it.

Listen

Any chance you could download it and turn it into an MP3 so I can listen to it? I want to hear if anybody came at the guy with some knowledge, I don't want to hear ad homs, personal attacks, strawman arguments, deflections, or shaming tactics. I don't want to hear any of that emotional bullshit, I want to hear people explain to the guy why his views are out of context. That is one of the major probs I have with so many black people, they don't know how to operate in the dominate system. You have to be able to explain your views properly, you can't just lash out at people.

 

[Nix]

Damn, SSJ1Goku is raising some fine points; damn fine. Although, the thought that Rap music, or the rap-gangster mentality, is harbored by a majority of blacks, is a pretty common misconeption, when that's an ideal placed on blacks, by a subjective society.

Most people I know like rock, R&B, Jazz, and only a few, a small denomination, prefer rap. I see alot more middle eastern, and white kids listening to it actually, and that give me pause, because then, why is the black community blamed for such a mentality, when it was such a mentality that was formed to keep us down.

Now that it's spilled over to different facets of society, it's now our fault, as if we're the eternal stool pideons. I just don't know. I can see where that historian guy (umm, Starkley?) is coming from, and his points, although lacking tact, are valid, but he puts it across in such a way that I can't bring myself to think he actually knows what he's talking about. Once again, marking out the black community to be the stigma of society, when as far as I know, most of the rioters weren't black. (Or were they, and I'm mistaken? The video's I saw showed mostly white looters.)

 

[Sneds]

A lot of white people have a hard time vocalizing their thoughts on why the black community is fucked up because of multiple factors:

1. They have a lot less interaction with black people than they thought. This usually results in some type of thought of black people should be just like white people but with dark skin. The problem with this is that it completely ignores the history.

2. The concepts of black people don't connect with the sterotypes they have in their own heads. White people seem to forget that they are the ones that created the ideas that black people are stupid, lazy, ugly, etc. You can't point to ideas of why the black community is messed up and go against those ideals.

3. Trying to pinpoint issues in the black community ends up pointing the blame right back at white people. And when they realize this they end up stumbling. This goes for the media, employment, education, financies (loans) and history.

Hip-hop created a shift in culture in the black community because it glorified the disenfranchisement of black men. Black men had problems gaining employment from the white dominant system. This created a reactionary culture. The only way for a black male to viewed as a man in the black community was to be a thug.

As I've already commented the reason why rap/hip hop is such a major problems is not the music itself but the lifestyle and attitudes of the stars. These people are not only looked up to, but trying to emulate them is now a tried and tested way of advancing yourself.

Thanks to you both for these posts and for elaborating on your points.

Now that it's spilled over to different facets of society, it's now our fault, as if we're the eternal stool pideons. I just don't know. I can see where that historian guy (umm, Starkley?) is coming from, and his points, although lacking tact, are valid, but he puts it across in such a way that I can't bring myself to think he actually knows what he's talking about. Once again, marking out the black community to be the stigma of society, when as far as I know, most of the rioters weren't black. (Or were they, and I'm mistaken? The video's I saw showed mostly white looters.)

That's ultimately my problem with Starkey. What he was saying appeared to be incredibly simplistic. The UK has many social problems. It's really easy to blame 'black culture' because it means that as a society, Britain doesn't have to focus on broader, long-term issues.

The problem is that 'black culture' has infected our society? Yes, many rappers make poor role models but I think that there are much more intrinsic, systematic problems in Britain. The social problems we're talking about have a long heritage and weren't created by hip-hop.

 

[SSJ1Goku]

Damn, SSJ1Goku is raising some fine points; damn fine. Although, the thought that Rap music, or the rap-gangster mentality, is harbored by a majority of blacks, is a pretty common misconeption, when that's an ideal placed on blacks, by a subjective society.

I disagree and here is why. The majority of black children are being raised by black females the legacy of struggle is being passed on by their the mother. The legacy of struggle says that a black female has to be strong and independant because of things that have happened in the past. Black boys are being raised in the same situation but are being told to do what makes black females happy NO MATTER WHAT (the legacy of corny). The females are attracted to what is perceived has manhood in their environment, which would be the hyper masculine thug. What is a thug? A thug is a male that has rejected the white dominate system wholesale and replaced it with the street shit. The majority of black boys can't like rock music for the simple fact that it is not seen as "black" so says black females. Now how do we get more thugs in the black community? Simple, let the corny boys have their first interaction with a black female and he gets rejected. The corny boy will see that the black females are attracted to thugs, so the boy will want to become a thug. This is where you get the stat that says that 50% of young black boys dropout of highschool. The culture has shifted, anything that is seen as white is rejected. This is why the boys fall off, because black females do NOT find value in an on-point black male. It is simple supply and demand. Black females demand a certain kind of guy and they get the supply.

 

[Strummerjones]

As I've already commented the reason why rap/hip hop is such a major problems is not the music itself but the lifestyle and attitudes of the stars. These people are not only looked up to, but trying to emulate them is now a tried and tested way of advancing yourself.

They emulate rich entertainers who themselves often became entertainers to escape terrifying lives of poverty and violence? Great news, soon they'll all be millionaires who wouldn't dream of being involved in a riot!

Punk was an extremely short lived and parochial phenomeon at the time and had a clear political agenda - not just the celebration of wealth and decadence.

Punk had no clear political agenda whatsoever. Most groups were apolitical, a feted minority had (typically vague) left wing views, others were genuine anarchists, others still were far right groups.

And, once again I've already said, rap is not the only issue, TV and films glorify criminality are also part of the problem - although movie stars tend to be more poistive role models, at least comparitvely speaking.

You're right on this one. You can't underestimate what TV makes people do (specifically blacks and thick people). "You remember 'Andy Pandy'? He used to come on. As soon as that was on I used to get in a glove. I used to jump in a glove and rush down the road and, you know, the power it has over people."

I'd actually say next to rap/hip-hop culture the only equally negative influence is celebrity culture in general - the sort of magazines and newspapers that celebrate the trivial and denigrate the profound.

So the biggest menaces to society today are celebrity magazines and rap music (which has been in decline for the last decade anyway)? Thank fuck for that, I thought for a minute we'd have to take a hard look at ourselves and try to unpick the real failings of a society in which disperate people, both socially and geographically isolated, can inexplicably come together to take part in shocking acts of violence at the drop of a hat. Good job there was an easy answer that let us unequivocally blame some folks we never really liked much anyway.

Silliest post I've yet seen on this forum (which lets face it, is quite an achievement), unless it was a troll, in which case well done.

 

[Furret]

They emulate rich entertainers who themselves often became entertainers to escape terrifying lives of poverty and violence? Great news, soon they'll all be millionaires who wouldn't dream of being involved in a riot!



Punk had no clear political agenda whatsoever. Most groups were apolitical, a feted minority had (typically vague) left wing views, others were genuine anarchists, others still were far right groups.



You're right on this one. You can't underestimate what TV makes people do (specifically blacks and thick people). "You remember 'Andy Pandy'? He used to come on. As soon as that was on I used to get in a glove. I used to jump in a glove and rush down the road and, you know, the power it has over people."



So the biggest menaces to society today are celebrity magazines and rap music (which has been in decline for the last decade anyway)? Thank fuck for that, I thought for a minute we'd have to take a hard look at ourselves and try to unpick the real failings of a society in which disperate people, both socially and geographically isolated, can inexplicably come together to take part in shocking acts of violence at the drop of a hat. Good job there was an easy answer that let us unequivocally blame some folks we never really liked much anyway.

Silliest post I've yet seen on this forum (which lets face it, is quite an achievement), unless it was a troll, in which case well done.

What worries me is how desperate the left are to deny every single suggestion of why this happened and what kind of social and cultural problems may have led to it.

Nobody in Britain lives in "terrifying poverty", that's insultingly absurd. When I grew up I didn't have a colour TV till I was in secondary school and no telephone until after I left for university.

Those involved in the riots who weren't millionaire's daughters or in a steady job had free housing were nowhere near the breadline and were organising their thievery via Blackberry mobiles.

So if it's not poverty, and according to you it's nothing cultural, why were they doing it? I've still yet to see any suggestion from liberal halfwit posters such as you as to what your explanation is.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Firstly we need to concede there are social issues within black communities, particularly in relation to academic underachievement that leads to a prevalence of street culture - that isn't a secret at least within black communities and the popularity of music genres that, if anything, glamorise it. It is however perhaps a taboo topic if you're not black yourself, like Starkey, but I don't think the controversy here comes from his commentary on those issues but rather his rationalisation that it was responsible for the rioting and looting, and this is where I'm confused by it.

Several times he states "its not about race" and yet then coins the classification for this violent, almost sub-human, culture as "black". He is flabbergasted at the inability of the "liberal elite" to call it "what it really is"; a critical mistake he pleads. To clarify himself further he refers to it as "black gangster culture" -- how he manages to interchange "black" with "black gangster culture" I have no idea. The most significant part of his commentary, and repeated again in his radio interview, was his explanation for the fact [one he readily acknowledges] that there were also whites looting and rioting was that "they've become black". Note this is after he is forced several times to state it is not about race. What is he implying? That any unruly kid who has a street life and wears a hoody is invariably a wannabe black gangster - that street culture in itself is imported from the Caribbean?

I have no doubt yardies were involved in the looting and rioting - but looting and rioting is not a characteristic - nor is it exclusive - of thug culture you can find on the streets of South London. But Starkey rejects this, citing his evidence that these youths communicated using a particular dialect (fam, bruv, blud), one that is shared with thug culture. I think he'll find it very difficult to find one youth in London not having ever used Jamaican patois; it does not make you a thug nor do people here class it as thug language. Then again, he readily admits to not knowing much about the gangster culture he is commentating on.

Quite naive.

Also, if you're going to talk about ethnic minorities, for god's sake don't give the far right material to jerk over by quoting Enoch Powell; Starkey has inadvertently become the darling for these groups over night.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Any chance you could download it and turn it into an MP3 so I can listen to it? I want to hear if anybody came at the guy with some knowledge, I don't want to hear ad homs, personal attacks, strawman arguments, deflections, or shaming tactics. I don't want to hear any of that emotional bullshit, I want to hear people explain to the guy why his views are out of context. That is one of the major probs I have with so many black people, they don't know how to operate in the dominate system. You have to be able to explain your views properly, you can't just lash out at people.

Will do.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Punk had no clear political agenda whatsoever. Most groups were apolitical, a feted minority had (typically vague) left wing views, others were genuine anarchists, others still were far right groups.

When I was talking about punk I was probably just talking about the Sex Pistols although it could probably also apply to Nirvana. But not Chumbawamba.

Likewise with rap I'm not talking about GZA or M.I.A.

I don't know what the other guy is talking about but I only mentioned punk because of Starkey's reference to nihilism and how it reminded me of the reception of the Sex Pistols by the establishment.

And here's a short gem from the Bob Dylan archives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx9zIGxQ-zE&

 

[kharma45]

Few petrol bombs and hijacked vehicles for us today but nothing too bad by Northern Ireland standards.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14518222

 

[Escape Goat]

 

[Bgamer90]

I did not mean it like that. What I meant was when people look at a black person they automatically think that they fit perfectly into the "Nigga Box". The Nigga Box is a place that black people put themselves into by embracing being on the bottom. I said I don't listen to rap music I was basically saying I don't fit the mold of the majority of black people. In my experience what most black people do is hate the sterotypes about black people, but turn around and will still accept being on the bottom, embrace ignorance, embrace rap music, accept all of the negatives...just for the sake of, as they see it, blackness. They don't want to reject anything because they don't want to be shamed. The problems in the black community have gone on for so long that very few people would be able to walk away from the community unscathed. So what you get is masses of black people who have reacted accordingly and have allowed their shame to dissipate. Most black people are at a point to where they are completely uncheckable, even by another black person.

EDIT: Let me explain it more simpily, in my experience black people are very hot and cold on the issues in the black community. They either represent all of the sterotypical traits or they have none of them. I'm not saying that there are not black people out here who listen to rap and also have an education. But from what I have observed there is basically a wholesale acceptants of the sterotypes or a wholesale rejection of them. These middle of the road people are rare. Remember what I said a lot of black people feel that if you do not accept all of the negative traits then you are rejecting blackness.

Yeah I knew what you meant. I was just saying that you probably should have stated it better.

I've been called an "oreo" for most of my life so I know where you are coming from.

 

[LQX]

Surprised so much of the blame is being shifted on only blacks and even that American blacks an ocean away are being used as examples which is odd. Also on thing that surprised me about seeing those rioting images is how diverse the crowds looked.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Yeah I knew what you meant. I was just saying that you probably should have stated it better.

I've been called an "oreo" for most of my life so I know where you are coming from.

I get called a coconut all the time because I don't listen to rap music, and I'm Indian!

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Surprised so much of the blame is being shifted on only blacks and even that American blacks an ocean away are being used as examples which is odd. Also on thing that surprised me about seeing those rioting images is how diverse the crowds looked.

Only a small minority are doing that.

 

[LQX]

Only a small minority are doing that.

True but the consensus even in this thread for the past few pages seem to be agreeing to put the blame on one group and also blame what's popular within that group. The blame is being shifted from the actual rioters to include every black person and I'm not sure thats fair. Just an observation. Canadians also rioted a few months ago and the blame did not then shit to putting all whites in box or blaming hockey because it is violent.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I think people are putting the blame on black people because they associate them with rap culture (it's a fair mistake to make for the uninitiated). They see rap videos glamourising violence, drugs, guns and possibly theft. The same people also see that most rappers are black. In these people's minds, black people are responsible. I don't agree, I think it is poor parenting whereby kids are put in front of the TV and watch and listen to music that isn't really made for them...

 

[Spokker]

It's not surprising to see the racists come out of the woodwork after riots. They can't find work so they aren't even scared of their boss finding out and firing them. They don't have bosses! And the budget woes, cutbacks in social security, etc... It's just terrible out there. A lot of these guys come from nothing. They just park themselves in front of the telly. I don't think we can really blame the racists for their outbursts.

 

[killer_clank]

I've hated David Starkey since he had a stupid rant on Question Time about his views on Scotland.

Dr Starkey described Scotland as a "feeble little country" and said Robert Burns was a "deeply boring provincial poet."

To boos from the audience, Dr Starkey said: "If we decide to go down this route of having an English national day, that means we become a feeble little country, just like the Scots and the Welsh and the Irish.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8016440.stm

Fucking xenophobic cunt.

 

[Spokker]

Fucking xenophobic cunt.

Haha, is making fun of another country really xenophobic? It seems to be a tradition over there.

 

[The Incarnation]

Surprised so much of the blame is being shifted on only blacks and even that American blacks an ocean away are being used as examples which is odd. Also on thing that surprised me about seeing those rioting images is how diverse the crowds looked.

This is the UK, where introspection is an alien concept. We love the blame game over here.

No one here sees themselves as part of the problem.

It's similar with the English football team. Our nations continuous failures are normally put down to us having too many foreigners in our Leagues.

 

[killer_clank]

Haha, is making fun of another country really xenophobic? It seems to be a tradition over there.

Hmm, well there's "banter" as it's called, which is all well and good down the pub. Obviously, as a Scot, I "hate" England when I'm drunk and there's a world cup on, but it doesn't extend past that.

Saying that kind of stuff on a national political debate program is not banter, and that's when it's most definitely not OK, verging actual hate, perhaps not xenophobia.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Is he wrong?

 

[FreeMufasa]

I think people are putting the blame on black people because they associate them with rap culture (it's a fair mistake to make for the uninitiated). They see rap videos glamourising violence, drugs, guns and possibly theft. The same people also see that most rappers are black. In these people's minds, black people are responsible. I don't agree, I think it is poor parenting whereby kids are put in front of the TV and watch and listen to music that isn't really made for them...

Thing is, that makes sense for our generation (kids who grew up in the 80s/90s) and the type of rap music that played then.

These days, rap (if it can even be called that) sounds like this stuff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrjRj4uQQ1o&ob=av3e

It just sounds like a really outdated argument that might have passed 10-20 years ago, but looks silly now.

 

[Spokker]

Saying that kind of stuff on a national political debate program is not banter, and that's when it's most definitely not OK, verging actual hate, perhaps not xenophobia.

I don't know anything about it, but if he hates another country he might as well let people know.

Are you angry with what he said or are you angry that he said it? If you're going to let him on a debate show it's best that he be honest.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

This is the good stuff

Third verse mocks modern rap/hip hop

You putting me to sleep nigga (Dumb it down)
That's why you ain't popping in the streets nigga (Dumb it down)
You ain't winning no awards nigga (Dumb it down)
Robots and skateboards nigga? (Dumb it down)
GQ Man Of The Year G? (Dumb it down)
Shit ain't rocking over here B (Dumb it down)
Won't you talk about your cars nigga? (Dumb it down)
And what the fuck is goyard nigga (Dumb it down)
Make it rain for the chicks (Dumb it down)
Pour champagne on a bitch (Dumb it down)
What the fuck is wrong with you? (Dumb it down)
How can I get on a song with you? (Dumb it down)

:lol

 

[Sneds]

I don't know anything about it, but if he hates another country he might as well let people know.

Are you angry with what he said or are you angry that he said it? If you're going to let him on a debate show it's best that he be honest.

I don't think he actually hates Scotland, Wales or Ireland. But he does belittle them and compares them negatively to England. Judge for yourself - here's him speaking on TV about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXd5KiKWtVA

When I saw this on TV I thought he sounded like a complete tosser and I'm English myself. I do wonder if his patriotism led to him believing that the riots had to be the fault of an 'outside' influence, i.e. 'black gangster culture' imported from the US.

 

[killer_clank]

I don't know anything about it, but if he hates another country he might as well let people know.

Are you angry with what he said or are you angry that he said it? If you're going to let him on a debate show it's best that he be honest.

I guess. Still doesn't make his views any more palatable though, and it's not like that incident is a one off, he's been doing it for years. For such a small country, Scotland has given much to the UK and indeed the world, as I'm sure it would should it ever become independent again. His current outburst just confirms by views on him, specifically 'the black man sounding like a white man'.

 

[vordhosbn]

This is the good stuff

Third verse mocks modern rap/hip hop

You putting me to sleep nigga (Dumb it down)
That's why you ain't popping in the streets nigga (Dumb it down)
You ain't winning no awards nigga (Dumb it down)
Robots and skateboards nigga? (Dumb it down)
GQ Man Of The Year G? (Dumb it down)
Shit ain't rocking over here B (Dumb it down)
Won't you talk about your cars nigga? (Dumb it down)
And what the fuck is goyard nigga (Dumb it down)
Make it rain for the chicks (Dumb it down)
Pour champagne on a bitch (Dumb it down)
What the fuck is wrong with you? (Dumb it down)
How can I get on a song with you? (Dumb it down)

:lol

I think in many ways anti-intellectualism is an essential part of 'hip hop' culture. And the fact that these whites, blacks, immigrants or non-immigrants cultures are ghettoised to the point of destroying their own society. I'm not sure what is incorrect about David Starkey's comments .

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I think in many ways anti-intellectualism is an essential part of 'hip hop' culture. And the fact that these whites, blacks, immigrants or non-immigrants cultures are ghettoised to the point of destroying their own society. I'm not sure what is incorrect about David Starkey's comments .

Well, I commented on them above. His observation of the degenerative elements of street culture are well known so I don't choose to place much importance on that part of his narrative - but that wasn't the only comment he made. He went further.

 

[Sneds]

I think in many ways anti-intellectualism is an essential part of 'hip hop' culture.

Well it really depends what you mean by 'hip-hop' culture. There's certainly some MCs out there who do have something of substance to say and talk about social problems in a meaningful way. J-Live springs to mind, who was a school teacher before he went full time in the music business. This track of his reminds me of the fourth season of The Wire.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Thing is, that makes sense for our generation (kids who grew up in the 80s/90s) and the type of rap music that played then.

These days, rap (if it can even be called that) sounds like this stuff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrjRj4uQQ1o&ob=av3e

It just sounds like a really outdated argument that might have passed 10-20 years ago, but looks silly now.

This is my view of what rap is from being of that generation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PaoLy7PHwk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0irL1M15DH8

Maybe you have a different one.

 

[vordhosbn]

Well it really depends what you mean by 'hip-hop' culture. There's certainly some MCs out there who do have something of substance to say and talk about social problems in a meaningful way. J-Live springs to mind, who was a school teacher before he went full time in the music business. This track of his reminds me of the fourth season of The Wire.

I suspect the fact most people and even hip hop aficionados haven't even heard of this guy proves that he's an exception. And I doubt they would ever be interested. This culture can't really be saved at all.

 

[Bgamer90]

There's still tons of good positive rap out now. You just have to search for it.

Shad, Shinsight Trio, Kero One, etc.

But yeah, it's definitely still around. Don't just classify everything based on what a good number are into these days.

 

[victreeb3l]

What worries me is how desperate the left are to deny every single suggestion of why this happened and what kind of social and cultural problems may have led to it.

Nobody in Britain lives in "terrifying poverty", that's insultingly absurd. When I grew up I didn't have a colour TV till I was in secondary school and no telephone until after I left for university.

Those involved in the riots who weren't millionaire's daughters or in a steady job had free housing were nowhere near the breadline and were organising their thievery via Blackberry mobiles.

So if it's not poverty, and according to you it's nothing cultural, why were they doing it? I've still yet to see any suggestion from liberal halfwit posters such as you as to what your explanation is.

did you gloss over the entire thing about how theres, you know, no consequences or punishment for these criminal acts? how the useless police for the first few days were nothing but spectators watching people do whatever they wanted? how the rioters knew that nothing they do will really get them into any kind of trouble? how entitled society has become in general? even a bunch of uk gaffers were saying a few days ago how they would be wealthier taking govt assistance instead of working their jobs.

and calm down with the condescension and name calling

 

[Ashes]

Rule no1 when you cover your face with a newspaper: Watch where you go!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5FufLiZQbA&feature=youtu.be

 

[Kitschkraft]

White people control "rap culture" not black people. White people have no problem making lots of money off the backs of black people but when that bullshit starts to become too extreme and spills over into the white community then they want to bitch.

While I didn't agree with every conclusion you made, this point definitely goes unnoticed far too often.

I saw this a few days ago and didn't think much of it. After reading the last page of this thread, I can't help but laugh :

I know you have to squint, but the chart shows where Kanye West/Jay-Z "Watch The Thrown" is number 1. Fucking blacks spreading materialism....

I don't have the citations on hand, but I've read a few writers that cover rap seriously point to NWA as the point where America as a whole chose "gangster rap" over the more diverse selection that hiphop had been offering until that point. Regardless of when it happened, it's safe to assume that whites were always on board (If not the driving force behind such a switch). I don't know exactly how blacks would be represented in the media if we had more resources, know how, and control, but it couldn't be any worse than it is now, and I imagine it would be a lot better. But, it's a pipe dream.....

And before someone says "yeah, but blacks are still the ones making this music", keep in mind that whites aren't just consumers of "black gangster culture", nor are they *just* making money off of it. They are producers, managers, agents, publicist, stylist, lawyers, etc! (And lets not forget that the most popular, especially amongst the white audience, is in fact a trailer trash white boy).

What's bothersome for me is that when black people want to "own" a piece of our culture, whites are quick to latch onto arguments to separate us from it. "It's not a black thing, it's apart of American culture!", or something like that. Can't tell you how many strange looks I've gotten when citing things like Soul food, jazz, blues, rock, spoken word, graffiti/street art, certain clothing styles, certain dance styles, etc etc etc as aspects of black culture or creations that we heavily influenced. Of course, when whites find it trashy, than it's definitely *just* a black thing.

Regardless, just because white people embrace black music, certainly doesn't mean that they embrace black culture or black people. There are fucking dance clubs where they don't even want to let blacks in, go inside, and white women are "dropping it" to fucking Soulja Boy. It's not the 80's anymore, rap is just music. It's not some cross cultural transformational tool or some BS like that, it's not reshaping the nation, it's not damaging the minds of the youth..it's just fucking music. Will kids emulate the way a rapper dresses? Sure. Will they fucking cause millions of dollars worth of damage because rap idolized materialism and decadence and kids were brainwashed to believe that the only way they could be "cool" was to break into a comicbook store? Give me a break.

I can't help but bring up the point on identification and media representation. You wanna blame the whole thing on rap and/or black culture? Fine, but don't forget that there are plenty of people within our community that have been dying for better portrayals in popular culture. We're so fucking marginalized within the media...."Ghetto" seems to be the only avenue where black entertainers can actually make a fucking living and become popular. This goes back to the first thing I talked about. Many of us DON'T WANT to see this ghetto filth every time we turn on the television, but the cards are stacked against us. I read a few years ago about Keke Palmer being dropped from her label, because some white business exec didn't find her to be selling enough sex. I believe that Fefe Dobson also had label problems because she refused to conform and "urbanize" herself. Seems like Nicki Minaj got the red carpet treatment though....

Some of these issues were discussed a bit in that vanity fair topic. The gaf answer seemed to be "tough luck".

 

[Dambrosi]

Getting away from the covert racism and tired old "rock 'n' roll is the Devil's music!" bullshit for a second...

It is most odd to be told these riots came out of ‘nowhere’ when I live up the road from where they started.

When I moved to London I actually lived and worked in ‘Nowhere’, or Tottenham as it appears to be called, and my family still shop in Wood Green High Road, which was looted on Saturday night. ‘Nowhere’ soon became a war zone where many residents were devastated by the activities of what was actually a small number of people. ‘Nowhere’ then extended itself to retail parks, other parts of London and other cities. ‘Nowhere’ was set alight. Lives were lost. Family businesses were burnt down and livelihoods shattered. Each story was worse than the last. ‘Oh no, they burnt down Peppers & Spice [a Caribbean food shack],’ I heard people say. ‘That old man’s barber shop and home was destroyed.’ ‘Did you see on YouTube? They mugged a boy who’d already been beaten up.’

Tottenham has never been gentrified: some of the gang stabbings and rapes there in recent years have been pure horror stories. Long before the riots there were pleas for more police, more help. The local MP, David Lammy, has been eloquent about the myriad problems in his constituency, as have many youth workers. But how did what started as a legitimate protest after the police shooting of Mark Duggan end up with disorder in Wolverhampton? How did we get from concerns about policing to idiots nicking plasmas? What point were these people making except ‘I want free stuff. I am entitled to it. I don’t care about anyone else’?

Those of my generation who remember the real ‘uprisings’ of the past, like Brixton in 1981, struggle to make sense of last week’s events. Even if we can comprehend anger we cannot condone the mindless destruction of already poor communities. I note that unemployment in Tottenham is at much the same level as in the last riots in 1985. This is not an excuse. It is an indictment of those responsible for the fact that change has not happened where it should. The banal political dismissal of the riots as nothing more than ‘pure criminality’ is criminally stupid. If that is all they were, why now? Why in some places, not others?

The reality is these riots do not fit old patterns or easy narratives of the Right or Left. But no matter, they were soon squeezed into pre-conceived ideological views. It’s the cuts, say some, refusing to acknowledge that most have yet to come into force. It’s the feral underclass spurred on somehow by the liberal metropolitan elite, say the Right, while failing to recognise that the liberal intelligentsia has little or no connection with the underclass – I’ve found myself having to explain to them what Poundland is! The immorality of those who behaved as they did and their utter disconnection from any notion of bourgeois norms have been much discussed; less so, the disturbing political disconnection.

No one begrudges politicians a holiday, but when they did come back it was too late, and mainly to condemn – the easy bit – a lot and to understand – the hard bit – rather less. As the riots raged, people wanted the police to do far more than they were doing. All kinds of conspiracy theories have done the rounds about why they did not show up in Wood Green on that first night. Television crews were in Tottenham until 2am when they were forced to pull out and my friends in the area tweeted and texted on what was happening till daylight. In the days that followed, as copycat rioting and looting broke out in other English cities, I was perturbed, of course. But I was also perturbed by how quickly everyone started talking about bringing in the Army: some said soldiers were already bedded down in South London.

David Cameron flew back from photo-ops with Italian waitresses to assert some kind of control. Boris still hadn’t bothered. Cameron has gone from talking about Broken Britain to the Big Society and now the Sick Society. And how shall the sick be healed? Apparently, by locking them up, taking away their benefits and throwing them out of their council homes. All this while cutting police numbers but increasing ‘visible policing’, which is little more than wishful thinking. Of course crimes were committed by an alienated cross-section, many of them unemployed youths, though we have had a good laugh at the exceptions. Ballerinas! Organic chefs! Posh girls! But those professing shock at the level of disaffection in many levels of society must have been wearing blinkers for the past two decades. The remoralisation of a demoralised society is but a hopeful promise.

The very notion that one must face the consequences of one’s actions has been undermined by the banking fiasco, the MPs’ expenses scandal and the phone-hacking saga. The gangsta credo of demanding respect for absolutely no reason other than it is demanded is not an attitude confined solely to postcode gangs. Such attitudes are prevalent at the top of our social structure. The coming generation cannot take for granted education or housing in the way we did. They cannot afford to leave home, jobs are scarce and mortgages way beyond the reach of average pay packets even for the so-called ‘squeezed middle’. Those at the bottom, now spoken of as less than human and unredeemable, still live right beside us. In times of austerity, they will be pushed further down and garner no sympathy. Some may be mere children of 11, but still there is a public outcry because they cannot be tagged or put in prison. What sort of civilised response is this?

After the terrible events in Norway, its leaders’ proud response was a commitment to more openness and democracy. Faced with an atomised culture, ours is the opposite. Many are asking for an absolute clampdown on basic freedoms, and suggesting Twitter or BlackBerry messaging be shut down. This extraordinarily draconian response befits Syria or China. Technology is neutral. Rioters used it but so did the police, so did those exchanging information about where it was safe to be, and so did those mobilising the clean-up. Greater Manchester Police used Twitter to give calm and detailed reports of what was happening – a huge source of reassurance. In the face of nihilism, the need to connect was paramount.

The usual causes, from single parenthood to multiculturalism, have been rolled out in a smug-fest by people who have no idea of the lives many lead. The looters’ poverty of aspiration – snatched trainers and DVD players – was soul-destroying. ‘Because I’m worth it’ says the advertising slogan, but when ripped out of its display case our consumer culture does not look worth much at all. The rioters’ statement was simply: ‘We are here. We want.’ Want, not need. Hence the rehearsal of the tedious debate on relative poverty which goes nowhere. These people feel they are owed something. Society says no.

We have some of the worst youth behaviour in the developed world. This is hardly new. Mostly we turn a blind eye, hoping CCTV will somehow intervene, but real intervention has to start very young indeed. And that costs. No single solution can come from Right or Left. Successive governments have made this mess and now we are all in this together. The truth is that what we used to call civic or public society needs not just care but actual rehab. If you believe society is sick from the bottom up – or the top down – then you may as well join in the self-sabotage of the rioters.

For what is forming is another angry mob who are foaming at the mouth with rabid Right-wing authoritarianism. At a time of economic collapse I am as frightened by this mob – the ones supposedly in charge – as I am of the moronic minority whose dreadful actions may mean that our basic liberties may go up in flames.

Such flames are being fanned. They will burn us down.

"'Forgive me if I am not justified in what I ask,' said
Scrooge, looking intently at the Spirit's robe,' but I see
something strange, and not belonging to yourself, protruding
from your skirts. Is it a foot or a claw.'

'It might be a claw, for the flesh there is upon it,' was
the Spirit's sorrowful reply. 'Look here.'

From the foldings of its robe, it brought two children;
wretched, abject, frightful, hideous, miserable. They knelt
down at its feet, and clung upon the outside of its garment.

'Oh, Man. look here. Look, look, down here.' exclaimed the Ghost.

They were a boy and a girl. Yellow, meagre, ragged, scowling,
wolfish; but prostrate, too, in their humility. Where
graceful youth should have filled their features out, and
touched them with its freshest tints, a stale and shrivelled
hand, like that of age, had pinched, and twisted them, and
pulled them into shreds. Where angels might have sat
enthroned, devils lurked, and glared out menacing. No
change, no degradation, no perversion of humanity, in any
grade, through all the mysteries of wonderful creation, has
monsters half so horrible and dread.

Scrooge started back, appalled. Having them shown to him
in this way, he tried to say they were fine children, but
the words choked themselves, rather than be parties to a lie
of such enormous magnitude.

'Spirit. are they yours.' Scrooge could say no more.

'They are Man's,' said the Spirit, looking down upon
them. 'And they cling to me, appealing from their fathers.
This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both,
and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy,
for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the
writing be erased. Deny it.' cried the Spirit, stretching out
its hand towards the city. 'Slander those who tell it ye.
Admit it for your factious purposes, and make it worse.
And abide the end.'

'Have they no refuge or resource.' cried Scrooge.

'Are there no prisons.' said the Spirit, turning on him
for the last time with his own words. 'Are there no workhouses.'"

A note of caution to those who still wish to follow such fearful and fearmongering authoritarian illogic.

 

[Jintor]

A great read in that article.

 

[Bleepey]

I get called a coconut all the time because I don't listen to rap music, and I'm Indian!

I'm black and i have been told i act white by a guy who listens to Michael buble

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I thought it was only me but a few of my black mates are saying they're getting looks from people (London)

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I thought it was only me but a few of my black mates are saying they're getting looks from people (London)

Not surprised. People have totally shut down their brains on this one and are reacting purely like animals lurching from disgusting misplaced sentimentality to impotent, murderous rage.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I thought it was only me but a few of my black mates are saying they're getting looks from people (London)

It's just stupid people dude. I used to get the dirtiest looks after the London terrorist bombings by virtue of being brown.

 

[FreeMufasa]

I think in many ways anti-intellectualism is an essential part of 'hip hop' culture. And the fact that these whites, blacks, immigrants or non-immigrants cultures are ghettoised to the point of destroying their own society. I'm not sure what is incorrect about David Starkey's comments .

"I think in many ways anti-intellectualism is an essential part of 'hip hop' culture. And the fact that these crackers, niggers, immigrants or non-immigrants cultures are ghettoised to the point of destroying their own society. I'm not sure what is incorrect about David Starkey's comments . Basically, niggers are vastly inferior to the white man.... I don't understand why the junglebunny coons rioting and looting in the UK don't just go back to Africa"

I found this in Youtube comments.

 

[Funky Papa]

You don't read YouTube comments. Nor WSHH's for that matter.

 

[Simplet]

Does anyone know who the retard that wrote this article is? I was linked to it by some forum warrior just a few weeks ago. The author of that trash looks like a true idiot right now, I wonder if he still remembers he wrote that.